"New Zealand Stinks"

[Biff]

I was really alarmed when I flew back in to NZ the other week. We flew over the southern alps and the American tourists sat behind me were full of "ooohs" and "ahhhs". It was a beautiful sight. Then we dropped down over Christchurch. "What the hell is that?" I heard a voice behind me ask. "Holy cow - I think it's smog".

What the Americans had witnessed was the shitty brown haze created by log burners polluting the atmosphere. I was embarrassed for this country because of the Americans obvious horror.

New Zealand is portrayed as such a beautiful clean place, yet most of us are guilty of either owning a log burner (which burn wood which comes from trees as if you didn't you know. And thousands if not tens of thousands of trees every year. Shame) or driving around in big engined, un-economical, thirsty gas guzzlers. Legislation here being decades behind many of the world 'advanced' nations in terms of restrictions on air pollution, vehicle emissions and tax penalties for lung clogging, big engined motors.

I spoke with a colleague of mine in the UK 20 minutes ago, also an American. I asked him what he thought of NZ during his recent stay in ChCh. "It stinks" he said. “And all of the guys in the office both here and in north America think it stinks, in the winter at least". He continued, “I couldn't even go for a walk in the evening without half chocking to death. And my clothes stank." I can only agree with him. Having just walked my dog I now stink of wood burner smoke. And I live in a semi rural area outside of the main city.

Is it like this throughout NZ? Or is it just that ChCh is in a bowl, so that this shitty, toxic haze tends to hang about like a rancid fart? Why the fuck do we burn so many trees here?

I've also just come accross a web site that states that NZ has the worst ashma rate in the world per head of population!!!!!!!!! No shit!

[Waylander]

Funny how I have never been able to breath easier. The smog and crap smeels worse in Dallas than Auckland and Wellington (havn't been to Cheistchurch yet but maybe next summer...) and Dallas isn't very big compared to L.A, New York, San Francisco, and others. Been to all three and I could hardly breath in the big cities in the states. Maybe you're right, maybe it is just Chch.:spudwhat:

[John]

Wow, are you sure it wasnt from a fire or something - I never knew it was that bad, althought riding into auckland is horrible the stink of fumes and chemicals burns your nostrials :(

[Biff]

Funny how I have never been able to breath easier. The smog and crap smeels worse in Dallas than Auckland and Wellington (havn't been to Cheistchurch yet but maybe next summer...) and Dallas isn't very big compared to L.A, New York, San Francisco, and others. Been to all three and I could hardly breath in the big cities in the states. Maybe you're right, maybe it is just Chch.:spudwhat:

I've been to Houston - stinks & LA - stinks. Never been to Auckland though. And I guess it's a seasonal thing.


Wow, are you sure it wasnt from a fire or something - I never knew it was that bad, althought riding into auckland is horrible the stink of fumes and chemicals burns your nostrials :(

No - definately not a fire. It's the same virtually every cold evening here. People stoke up their wood burners and everyone outside gets a lung full.

[Waylander]

I've been to Houston - stinks & LA - stinks. Never been to Auckland though. And I guess it's a seasonal thing.




Yea Houston is pretty bad. They have the oil refineries and the fishing docks so it gets pretty bad.

[Slipstream]

Is it like this throughout NZ? Or is it just that ChCh is in a bowl, so that this shitty, toxic haze tends to hang about like a rancid fart?

Actually....Chch doesn't get as much wind cos its flat and stuff. Wgtn doesn't get smog cos the wind blows it away and Auckland doesn't get as much cos it has hills with up drafts and stuff.....
sorry man...
I've been told by some travelers that Chch is our LA equivalent in that area.

[Big Dave]

I though Auckland was pretty good - it all blows away.
But I'm from Sydney, which is surrounded by mountains (Kiwis call them hills) - but the sky can get a heavy layer of brown after a few calm days.

[idb]

Actually....Chch doesn't get as much wind cos its flat and stuff. Wgtn doesn't get smog cos the wind blows it away and Auckland doesn't get as much cos it has hills with up drafts and stuff.....
sorry man...
I've been told by some travelers that Chch is our LA equivalent in that area.
It's pretty at sunset...or on a full moon.

[danb]

After visiting Canada and the US, why don’t NZ'ers use Furniss like they do, It all runs on gas and creates a lot less pollution (Not that it solves the long term problems, greenhouse etc). The Furniss’s are pretty efficient - only turn on when the temp is to low or you want it on, and it heats the whole house to the same temp.

When I spoke to one of the locals that bad been to New Zealand – They said they had never been so cold in a house before in the middle of winter with a fireplace.

I hate the fact with the house Im in now, by the morning when you most want the heat the house is cold because the fire burnt out by the morning, and It’s at one end of the house therefore the bedrooms are cold. :no: Cant Win!!

Yea im in the same situation - I do no sports or anything like that so bikes fix that

At the end on the month I shall have a look for the movies etc posted on here and see if they are on DC++, I have done it before (How I got ghost rider etc)but didn’t have much success.

How many people on here have Internal Heating? And what company’s provide it here in New Zealand? - Something to think about when I want to get or build a house :msn-wink:

[Waylander]

Internal heating a cooling. One more thing I miss, but I can go without it. I just throw an extra down feather blanket on the bed.:Punk:

[danb]

Internal heating a cooling. One more thing I miss, but I can go without it. I just throw an extra down feather blanket on the bed.:Punk:

How many people on here have Internal Heating? And what company’s provide it here in New Zealand? - Something to think about when I want to get or build a house :msn-wink:

[N4CR]

After visiting Canada and the US, why don’t NZ'ers use Furriness like they do, It all runs on gas and creates a lot less pollution (Not that it solves the long term problems, greenhouse etc). The Furriness are pretty efficient - only turn on when the temp is to low or you want it on, and it heats the whole house to the same temp.

Do you have a bad case of furriness? Or is there a furrmess or something?

Gas is running out.. we will be burning furniture next anyway no doubt.

[John]

How many people on here have Internal Heating? And what company’s provide it here in New Zealand? - Something to think about when I want to get or build a house :msn-wink:

Might want to get out of your parents house before you get ahead of yourself.

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt1 width="35%">00:56 danb (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php?u=566) </TD><TD class=alt2 width="35%">Modifying Post
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:killingme :killingme :killingme


The problem is dampness, and the heaters that people use just make it worse, what we really need is a smart population - as if that will happen.:killingme

[Waylander]

Do you have a bad case of furriness? Or is there a furrmess or something?

Gas is running out.. we will be burning furniture next anyway no doubt.
Most in home gas heaters run on methane wich is very easily replaced last time I checked. Just ask Riff Raff. But then that wont exactly fix the smell problem....

[danb]

Do you have a bad case of furriness? Or is there a furrmess or something?

Gas is running out.. we will be burning furniture next anyway no doubt.

Ugg if my spelling is still screwed this time round :whocares: :niceone:

[danb]

Might want to get out of your parents house before you get ahead of yourself.



Leech while you can :whistle:
No harm in thinking about the future or what is going to left of it.

[idb]

Ugg if my spelling is still screwed this time round :whocares: :niceone:
How can you expect to make yourself understood with that attitude? :Pokey:
Write 100 times 'furnace'.

[bevsta]

I though Auckland was pretty good - it all blows away.
But I'm from Sydney, which is surrounded by mountains (Kiwis call them hills) - but the sky can get a heavy layer of brown after a few calm days.


You think Auckland is good, you should try coming down here to Wellington, we're clean as a whistle! Yess-sirr-ee, gotta love that wind!

[250learna]

yeah welly wind blows everyingting away, everything but them bloody rain clouds... hope it stays clear for a few days.

Ohh and i been up and down north island many times and i cant say that i have noticed any smog. Same goes for the upper part of the south.

Ohh and in my house we use central gas heating :niceone:

[James Deuce]

I've also just come accross a web site that states that NZ has the worst ashma rate in the world per head of population!!!!!!!!! No shit!

That has a great deal to do with the native flora being 150 million years older than everywhere on the planet except Tasmania and parts of the East coast of Aus. Our soil composition is also vastly different than most other arable places.

Another reason is the medical profession's willingness to label ANY respitory ailment with viral or allergen triggers asthma.

Airborne man-made carbon pollution is massively over-hyped. The Atlantic Ocean pumps out a HUGE amount of CO2, so much so that you can barely see man's output on a pie chart next to it, and I don't see anyone sticking a catalytic converter on the Mid-Atlantic Trench anytime soon.

Christchurch would have smog in winter, if only from the methane cloud produced by the organic carbon based life forms that live there. Without wood fire particulates to bind methane to, Christchurch would look like the surface of Titan during winter. LA still looks like shit most of the time, and the cloud of smog over Europe means you don't need sunglasses in Summer. I'm missing the point a bit I think. ;)

[Quasievil]

I thought the Christchurch council were soughting it out ie taxing them or banning them , No? well they should

Last month flew out of Mexico city, WOW smog central lost sight of the ground fairly quickly YUCK

[sels1]

Is it like this throughout NZ? Or is it just that ChCh is in a bowl, so that this shitty, toxic haze tends to hang about like a rancid fart

Got it in one. Christchurchs topography means there is an inversion layer of cold air (particulaly in winter) that traps emmissions from all sources around the city and causes a smog problems. The ChCh city council has brought in regulations controlling open fires I understand, but it is an on going problem. Fortunatly for the rest of NZ it is not such an issue anywhere else due to sufficient airflow - it all blows away! Smog will be observed in any city if the air is still enough.

[MSTRS]

Nothing nicer than that earthy smell in the bush overlaid by a campfire. The stink of a logburner is caused by having it 'damped down' too much - the tradeoff for not burning so much wood.

[The Tazman]

[/QUOTE] How many people on here have Internal Heating? And what company’s provide it here in New Zealand? - Something to think about when I want to get or build a house :msn-wink:[/QUOTE]

I have just been looking into this. As John said a big problem is dampness.

This is one of the co.'s that I have looked at as it is supposed to get rid of the damp and warm up the house (if you have the heated version)

www.condensation.co.nz

Have a look and see what you think.

[Maximus]

Actually....Chch doesn't get as much wind cos its flat and stuff. Wgtn doesn't get smog cos the wind blows it away and Auckland doesn't get as much cos it has hills with up drafts and stuff.....
sorry man...
I've been told by some travelers that Chch is our LA equivalent in that area.


That makes sense, I noticed this when I flew outta ch/ch yesterday.

[TwoSeven]

I was going to make a post a while back that the "great christchurch stink" has started. I go for walks every night and by the time I get back i'm coughing and choking - you can smell the stink of you go outside during the day. It must be one of the worst cities in the winter i've ever lived in for pollution. We have had some spectacular red moons and a couple of brown ones.

Last year was the best one - our fire alarms started going off every time we opened the verandah doors at night. We have those new ones now that aint so sensitive.

I think getting rid of open fires would be a good idea - that would make a big difference, then it would just come down to vehicle emmissions.

[Marmoot]

huh? I thought the topic was about Auckland's toilets...

But, while we're at it, Auckland Int'l Airport toilet stinks like heck! It even stinks more than Guangzhou's local bus terminal's toilet.
It even stinks more than Imax's toilet.

Anyway...carry on as you were.... :whistle:

[Hitcher]

If Christchurch had more winter winds nobody would notice the smog.

Christchurch's smog is caused by the combined effects of a temperature inversion layer (thanks to the sun setting behind the Alps), the Port Hills and the fact that the city is built on a swamp.

There has been a lot of bullshit promulgated by the Christchurch City authorities and Environment Canterbury about causes of this. They first picked on coal fires. This argument was flawed by a cursory examination of the facts (gasp, look of horror) that clearly showed that while coal usage had fallen dramatically since the 1950s, the smog had got worse! Anyway, coal still got banned for domestic use because, well, it's black.

Diesel motor vehicles and vehicles generally have escaped unscathed. Open fires have been boarded up. But log fires are still permitted, just because you can't have pensioners dying of cold in the winter. The fact that most people use wet firewood doesn't seem to figure in the thinking of central planners. Wet firewood = incomplete combustion = particulate matter and other nasties in the stack emissions = smog problem exacerbator.

Dismounts hobbyhorse. Returns it to gargre.

[Lou Girardin]

Ain't it great, people moan about pollution, yet we have unfettered importation of the worlds cast off shit-box cars, which are only cheap because they can't be used at home due to their polluting engines.
No wonder I'm a cynical bastard.

[TwoSeven]

If Christchurch had more winter winds nobody would notice the smog.

Christchurch's smog is caused by the combined effects of a temperature inversion layer (thanks to the sun setting behind the Alps), the Port Hills and the fact that the city is built on a swamp.

There has been a lot of bullshit promulgated by the Christchurch City authorities and Environment Canterbury about causes of this. They first picked on coal fires. This argument was flawed by a cursory examination of the facts (gasp, look of horror) that clearly showed that while coal usage had fallen dramatically since the 1950s, the smog had got worse! Anyway, coal still got banned for domestic use because, well, it's black.

Diesel motor vehicles and vehicles generally have escaped unscathed. Open fires have been boarded up. But log fires are still permitted, just because you can't have pensioners dying of cold in the winter. The fact that most people use wet firewood doesn't seem to figure in the thinking of central planners. Wet firewood = incomplete combustion = particulate matter and other nasties in the stack emissions = smog problem exacerbator.

Dismounts hobbyhorse. Returns it to gargre.

What unadultered nonsense.

Smog is not caused in christchuch by the lack of winds or an inversion layer. I've never heard of lack of wind causing fire smoke before. Neither have I ever heard of any swamp every causing fire smoke. Swamps also dont produce carbon monoxide by burning fossil fuels either.

I suspect what you were trying to say is that christchurch is a higher polluter and we suffer from it because there is no wind to blow all that pollution away.

Diesel vehicles produce better emmisions than most cars - specially since the sulpher has been removed and dont forget that the no-smoky vehicle rule has been in for several years - yet we still have a high Carbon monoxide content in the smog - must be those swamps and the port hills causing it.

Where did you get such tripe from

We live smack bang in the middle of the so called inversion layer and if you go out side - you'll pretty much get coated in fire smoke. Its 2pm and I can see shit coming out of 3 chimneys just from my kitchen window.

Instead of blaming lack of wind for the fact that christchurch folks are heavy polluters why dont you but some effort into preventing pollution. I know we do.

Sorry, but I really hate it when people quote verbatem socialist coal industry shite without first looking out their window.

[sels1]

Smog is not caused in christchuch by the lack of winds or an inversion layer. I've never heard of lack of wind causing fire smoke before. .

ChCh probably dosent produce any more pollution than other cities, its just the inversion layer TRAPS IT IN, like the lid on a pot. Other places it is dissapated away more rapidily, and therefore not so noticable

[Kickaha]

If Christchurch had more winter winds nobody would notice the smog.

Christchurch's smog is caused by the combined effects of a temperature inversion layer (thanks to the sun setting behind the Alps), the Port Hills and the fact that the city is built on a swamp.


Easy fix then,we'll just level the Port Hills :niceone:

[Timber020]

Most of the problems with NZ houses is a complete lack of adaquate insulation. Ever seen a NZ house with double glazing? So many houses are just badly made from the get go.

Burning firewood is a cheap and easy way to get heat without the kind of bills you get running gas central heating. The wood is generally pine or macrocarpa left over from land clearing or off cuts from tree work, a renewable resource in 95% of cases.

[Skyryder]

Easy fix then,we'll just level the Port Hills :niceone:

No you wont. That's wher I live.

Christchurch has always had a polution problem. The closure of the gas works where coke could be purchased for open fires exacerbated the problem. Coke will smoke but once it reaches a certain temperture it is relitively clean burning.
later as a measure to counter coal and the open fire inefficiency the council in its wisdom promoted the use of log burners. Where once the coke and coal fire died in their own embers the new log burners by closeing the dampers would stay alight all night. The by product of this slow burning wood was smoke. This in my view is the main cause of todays smog. Coupled this with and inversion layer in the autumn and winter and you have Smog City.

Skyryder

[Dafe]

Is wood burner smoke even nasty to the atmosphere?

[James Deuce]

Is wood burner smoke even nasty to the atmosphere?

It is in that by burning wood artificially in greater quantities than normal, naturally caused forest fire burn offs, humans being release more carbon into the atmosphere than would normally be there. However the quantity is negligible when compared to the quantity released by the Earth's crust.

Whetehr that is bad or not depends on whihc school of thought you subscribe to. Is our ecosystem fragile or robust and self correcting?

[James Deuce]

What unadultered nonsense.

Smog is not caused in christchuch by the lack of winds or an inversion layer. I've never heard of lack of wind causing fire smoke before. Neither have I ever heard of any swamp every causing fire smoke. Swamps also dont produce carbon monoxide by burning fossil fuels either.

I suspect what you were trying to say is that christchurch is a higher polluter and we suffer from it because there is no wind to blow all that pollution away.

Diesel vehicles produce better emmisions than most cars - specially since the sulpher has been removed and dont forget that the no-smoky vehicle rule has been in for several years - yet we still have a high Carbon monoxide content in the smog - must be those swamps and the port hills causing it.

Where did you get such tripe from

We live smack bang in the middle of the so called inversion layer and if you go out side - you'll pretty much get coated in fire smoke. Its 2pm and I can see shit coming out of 3 chimneys just from my kitchen window.

Instead of blaming lack of wind for the fact that christchurch folks are heavy polluters why dont you but some effort into preventing pollution. I know we do.

Sorry, but I really hate it when people quote verbatem socialist coal industry shite without first looking out their window.

Very strong language to use when presenting a luddite attitude, don't you think?

[Biff]

Ever seen a NZ house with double glazing? Yup - mine.


The wood is generally pine or macrocarpa left over from land clearing or off cuts from tree work, a renewable resource in 95% of cases.

Sorry - I don't buy that line. Trees are still cut down and burnt, irrespective of why they were cut down in the first place, it’s still stripping the land. As for them being renewable, well if they grew as fast as people burnt them you’d have a point. But as it is there's no way it can be described as renewable when demand exceeds the growth rate of new trees.

As an aside - Ms Biff almost bought a beautiful mahogany table the other week after the lady told her that the wood was from 'managed renewable sources'. She lady in the shop forgot to mention that it takes 200 years for the tree to grow in the first place.

[Timber020]

Yeah it is renewable, clear thinning operations are carried out everywhere that there are forests. (although I hate pine plantations) The first few lengths of trunk are millable but the rest is waste and often picked up by firewood merchants.
The majority of firewood out there is Gum, Macrocarpa or Pine. These grow FAST. A pinus radiata reaches millable maturity in 25 years.
Christchurch gets most of its wood from trees felled on farmers land around Chch and from the supplies created by arborists around the city (of which christchurch is oversupplied and backyards are giving way to town houses).
This week alone I am spending 4 days in a tree which will yield about 6 tonnes once I get it down, I also have to quote on about 20 tonnes of pine and this afternoon got another job which will involve some 7 tonnes.
Saying this I have never made a single dollar from firewood. (Any kiwibikers want wood, and are prepared to do some backwork to get it, let me know)

[TwoSeven]

Very strong language to use when presenting a luddite attitude, don't you think?

Probably because every year I end up sick as a dog with polution related illnesses only to have to listen to the shit lazy buggers spout about there being no polution problem or its someone else fault or some other crappy excuse. :)

[Hitcher]

Yup - mine.



Sorry - I don't buy that line. Trees are still cut down and burnt, irrespective of why they were cut down in the first place, it’s still stripping the land. As for them being renewable, well if they grew as fast as people burnt them you’d have a point. But as it is there's no way it can be described as renewable when demand exceeds the growth rate of new trees.

As an aside - Ms Biff almost bought a beautiful mahogany table the other week after the lady told her that the wood was from 'managed renewable sources'. She lady in the shop forgot to mention that it takes 200 years for the tree to grow in the first place.
You're missing the point here. New Zealand's pine and Douglas Fir industries are renewable and designed for rotational harvest. We also plant more each year then we fell. In some parts of the country, renewable forest is the most ecologically friendly land use going.

Mahogany and other hardwoods can indeed be obtained from "manageable renewable resources", but only if a forest is managed so that rate of harvest is, at most, equal to the rate of regeneration. Make sure that any furniture you purchase has the relevant certification to validate any claims made by the retailer. Also don't forget that there are varieties of "mahogany" that mature faster than others...

[James Deuce]

Probably because every year I end up sick as a dog with polution related illnesses only to have to listen to the shit lazy buggers spout about there being no polution problem or its someone else fault or some other crappy excuse. :)

Fair point, but I don't think Christchurch folks are any worse than most NZers when it comes to using organic fuels for heating. The climate and geography definitely conspire to trap stuff over Christchurch. Wellington gets "cleared" of airborne pollution regularly, and Auckland's prevailing westerly keeps things moving on too. Other cities of lesser habitation density don't tend to produce the cubic volumes of airborne particulates and gases that the "big 3" do.

[Brian d marge]

I am using wonderfully cheap Nuclear fuel ..as proccessed in stainless buckets by part time workers, oh and we fixed the leak ...we renamed it coolant overflow valve ....
Open the window darling and let some of the cool air in ...cant be arsed using the remote ...like troublesome ....

Stephen
Tokyo...... :devil2: :thud:

[Biff]

Mahogany and other hardwoods can indeed be obtained from "manageable renewable resources", but only if a forest is managed so that rate of harvest is, at most, equal to the rate of regeneration. Make sure that any furniture you purchase has the relevant certification to validate any claims made by the retailer. Also don't forget that there are varieties of "mahogany" that mature faster than others...

No I'm not missing the point. It is a fact that mahogany takes at least 200 years to mature and it is often sold illegally, being routed through Indonesia and Malaysia in order to obtain the certification you refer to.

A study conducted around 2 years ago by the UK govt revealed that the overwhelming majority of hard woods that carried certificates were felled illegally. In fact, this only came to light because an environmental organisation cried foul at the fact that a British parliament building was totally refurnished in hard wood. Then the govt carried out its own investigation, subsequently verified by several other European nations, which proved that this wood was obtained and felled illegally. Sometimes with the full knowledge of the govts in which the trees were felled. In fact, Borneo turned out to be one of the worst culprits. Virgin forests stripped bear of trees that took thousands of years to grow, and endangering animal species unique to the island in the process. Yet all of this wood carried certificates and was routed through other nations in an attempt to mask the region in which they originally grew.

As for the trees being burnt here being renewable, I'm sorry - but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've travelled around ChCh plenty of times, and see the carnage that's caused by raping the surrounding areas of trees. Just take a trip down SH1 from ChCh towards Timaru and look at all of the trees felled there for firewood. Then take a look of aerial photos of Canterbury 25 years ago. The images are compelling, in that they clearly show an enormous drop in the level of tree cover across the region. But then again I guess this is typical of most countries around the world, particularly in those areas surrounding cities.

Ok so you say that trees may be being planted elsewhere, but I don’t see them around here, so I can’t question this as I have no evidence to the contrary. And I certainly don't know enough about this specific area to go toe to toe with anyone. All I know is that my clothes stink, I can no longer go jogging in the evening due to the acrid stench, my lads 'asthma' appears to have gotton worse over the last few weeks and the image of NZ globally, a beautiful country, is being tarnished.

[250learna]

LA still looks like shit most of the time, and the cloud of smog over Europe means you don't need sunglasses in Summer. I'm missing the point a bit I think. ;)

I duno about that, have you ever been to greece, croatia or italy, spain, portudal, montenegro? The sun is Bright and sand golden. Europe is poluted but there are still plenty of great (fairly) clean places to enjoy the summer :niceone:

On a different note whats up with the green peace people who are so worried about the environment (can id them by their bumper stickers) driving around in old heaps of junk that smoke like they are on fire. Take the bus or the train, maybe a bicycle if you are realy so concerned!

And it is a fact that new disels are cleaner running than petrol cars, its the old ones that are ready to throw the towel in that give disels a bad name. In europe everyone is turning to disel, and THEY know about polution first hand, not like us over here discussing a lil low cloud above chch :msn-wink:

[Pixie]

Why the fuck do we burn so many trees here?

!
What else do you do with trees?
Hug them?

[Pixie]

I duno about that, have you ever been to greece, croatia or italy, spain, portudal, montenegro? The sun is Bright and sand golden. Europe is poluted but there are still plenty of great (fairly) clean places to enjoy the summer :niceone:

On a different note whats up with the green peace people who are so worried about the environment (can id them by their bumper stickers) driving around in old heaps of junk that smoke like they are on fire. Take the bus or the train, maybe a bicycle if you are realy so concerned!

And it is a fact that new disels are cleaner running than petrol cars, its the old ones that are ready to throw the towel in that give disels a bad name. In europe everyone is turning to disel, and THEY know about polution first hand, not like us over here discussing a lil low cloud above chch :msn-wink:
Whats up with the Grin Piss people?
I'll tell you. Like any other group of religious fanatics they are hypocrites.They will have some rationalisation that their polluting shit box is saving the planet because they didn't "waste" resources by causing a new car to be built.
Nature is always at it's most evolutionarily creative when it has an environmental change to deal with.
Bring on the next Mass Extinction Event.

P.S.
Perhaps Chch'ers will evolve large trunk like probosces to filter the smog before it reaches their lungs?
Maybe G.E. can help here....Oops sorry another Evil technology.

[Brian d marge]

Very strong language to use when presenting a luddite attitude, don't you think?

Ive read the above post a few times now and I cant see a luddite .the post by 27 ...( Sir Ludd was a bit narked at the introduction of new Machinery and the term is used for people who dont like new things or ways ,,,,,,,)

So As far as I know chch its the inversion layer AND the burning of product that cant reach full combustion temp (ie the temp to burn ALL of its consituents wood coal . oil what ever )

So how does ludditism come into that last post .....

Stephen

[Pixie]

(Any kiwibikers want wood, and are prepared to do some backwork to get it, let me know)
"Whenever people get wood..they will think 'Trojans' "-Homer Simpson.

[Pixie]

That has a great deal to do with the native flora being 150 million years older than everywhere on the planet except Tasmania and parts of the East coast of Aus. Our soil composition is also vastly different than most other arable places.

Another reason is the medical profession's willingness to label ANY respitory ailment with viral or allergen triggers asthma.

Airborne man-made carbon pollution is massively over-hyped. The Atlantic Ocean pumps out a HUGE amount of CO2, so much so that you can barely see man's output on a pie chart next to it, and I don't see anyone sticking a catalytic converter on the Mid-Atlantic Trench anytime soon.

Christchurch would have smog in winter, if only from the methane cloud produced by the organic carbon based life forms that live there. Without wood fire particulates to bind methane to, Christchurch would look like the surface of Titan during winter. LA still looks like shit most of the time, and the cloud of smog over Europe means you don't need sunglasses in Summer. I'm missing the point a bit I think. ;)
Shhh....You'll call into doubt the anthropogenetic global warming industry

[scumdog]

Ain't it great, people moan about pollution, yet we have unfettered importation of the worlds cast off shit-box cars, which are only cheap because they can't be used at home due to their polluting engines.
No wonder I'm a cynical bastard.

Your'e just wishing the Govt would ban such cars and then you could sell more motorbikes & poncy jackets :laugh:

[Jamezo]

Shhh....You'll call into doubt the anthropogenetic global warming industry

arghgh! it's attitudes like this that are actively condemning our grandchildren to eking out an existence on a shattered hulk of a planet.

I assume you mean 'anthropogenic'; a stunning display of your ability to (mis)use big words, while not quite comprehending exactly what you are saying. are you implying that an 'industry' can somehow arise out of thin air; and not be created by man?

are you aware of the highly concerted effort to undermine climate change science? publicly and not-so-publically bankrolled by, you guessed it, oil corporations and car manufacturers. they provide arguments as to how climate change science exists only to perpetuate itself, and also try to refute irrefutable data about what is happening to our planet. they are promoting ignorant business-as-usual attitudes, out of a fear of denting the Holy GDP/share price. way to go guys...

ok, the kyoto protocol is a huge steaming crock. but it's a start in taking responsibility for the survival of our species. personally, I am not too fussed about an increase in atmospheric carbon/temperature. what I care more about is the greedy, irresponsible plundering of irreplaceable natural resources. dammit, I want my kids to be able to afford petrol for their bikes, but thanks to 50 years of penis-size-engine-capacity bullshit, and absolutely PATHETIC fuel efficiency standards (in the US, SUVs are exempt from meeting even these, as they are classified as light trucks. go figure), that is becoming increasingly unlikely.

we cannot sustain this greed and ignorance! take your head out of the sand!

[Hitcher]

Sigh. I wish science was a compulsory subject at schools. No wonder people vote for the Greens and we're going to hell in a handcart...

[James Deuce]

Ive read the above post a few times now and I cant see a luddite .the post by 27 ...( Sir Ludd was a bit narked at the introduction of new Machinery and the term is used for people who dont like new things or ways ,,,,,,,)

So As far as I know chch its the inversion layer AND the burning of product that cant reach full combustion temp (ie the temp to burn ALL of its consituents wood coal . oil what ever )

So how does ludditism come into that last post .....

Stephen

It's called paraphrasing, you literal clodhopper. ;)

It also refers to the single minded application of a particular view contrary to scientific, spiritual, or popular belief. A dogmatic approach to old fashioned values and technology, despite the constant of change.

[James Deuce]

arghgh! it's attitudes like this that are actively condemning our grandchildren to eking out an existence on a shattered hulk of a planet.

I assume you mean 'anthropogenic'; a stunning display of your ability to (mis)use big words, while not quite comprehending exactly what you are saying. are you implying that an 'industry' can somehow arise out of thin air; and not be created by man?

are you aware of the highly concerted effort to undermine climate change science? publicly and not-so-publically bankrolled by, you guessed it, oil corporations and car manufacturers. they provide arguments as to how climate change science exists only to perpetuate itself, and also try to refute irrefutable data about what is happening to our planet. they are promoting ignorant business-as-usual attitudes, out of a fear of denting the Holy GDP/share price. way to go guys...

ok, the kyoto protocol is a huge steaming crock. but it's a start in taking responsibility for the survival of our species. personally, I am not too fussed about an increase in atmospheric carbon/temperature. what I care more about is the greedy, irresponsible plundering of irreplaceable natural resources. dammit, I want my kids to be able to afford petrol for their bikes, but thanks to 50 years of penis-size-engine-capacity bullshit, and absolutely PATHETIC fuel efficiency standards (in the US, SUVs are exempt from meeting even these, as they are classified as light trucks. go figure), that is becoming increasingly unlikely.

we cannot sustain this greed and ignorance! take your head out of the sand!

The Earth is NOT a closed system. The energy of the Moon's orbit predicates weather for decades ahead, and a drop in particular type of solar activity, such as sunspots or solar flares can mean things like a drop in Ozone in the upper atmosphere, and man with his little goldfish like memory for cataclysms forgetting what solar flares can do to electronics in a geosynchronous orbit. Global warming is a naturally occuring phenomena. Oceans do not rise because ice caps melt, they rise because liquids have greater volume as their energy state changes on the way to becoming a vapour. Excited atoms take up more room. Even David Bellamy, a committed long term conservationist, doesn't accept that man has precipitated the recent slight upward trend in global temperatures. More CO2 leaks out of the Mid-Atlantic trench in a week than man produces in a decade.

Conspiracies are mammothly less likely than complete and utter screw ups. Conspiracy theorists are amusing. Greens in power makes my skin crawl.

[Jamezo]

Sigh. I wish science was a compulsory subject at schools. No wonder people vote for the Greens and we're going to hell in a handcart...
do you not care for my spirited rantings? comment and analysis is welcome :S

[Blakamin]

wished my scanner worked... this arrived in the mail today...
edit... it did work.....
bottom pic is masterton when its cold.... how many trees burning???
note the WCC put a bike in the middle???? arseholes...
and that falcon is breaking the law....


edit... and the other side has a note saying "Cars and home fires pollute our air" under a scratchy thing... that probably polluted heaps of shit to make..... not to mention the high-gloss paper and the fact it woulda gone to every house in the greater wellington area.....

[Waylander]

wished my scanner worked... this arrived in the mail today...
edit... it did work.....
bottom pic is masterton when its cold.... how many trees burning???


And a filtering motorbike.:Punk:

[Hitcher]

do you not care for my spirited rantings? comment and analysis is welcome
Informed spirited rantings are OK. What people thought they overheard at the Taita Machine Knitters Club's advanced jute macrame class is another matter entirely...

[Biff]

What else do you do with trees?
Hug them?

Thanks for the constructive input. :no:


Whats up with the Grin Piss people?
I'll tell you. Like any other group of religious fanatics they are hypocrites.

Ahh - our old friend again Mr Gross Generalisation.

[Pixie]

arghgh! it's attitudes like this that are actively condemning our grandchildren to eking out an existence on a shattered hulk of a planet.

I assume you mean 'anthropogenic'; a stunning display of your ability to (mis)use big words, while not quite comprehending exactly what you are saying. are you implying that an 'industry' can somehow arise out of thin air; and not be created by man?

are you aware of the highly concerted effort to undermine climate change science? publicly and not-so-publically bankrolled by, you guessed it, oil corporations and car manufacturers. they provide arguments as to how climate change science exists only to perpetuate itself, and also try to refute irrefutable data about what is happening to our planet. they are promoting ignorant business-as-usual attitudes, out of a fear of denting the Holy GDP/share price. way to go guys...

ok, the kyoto protocol is a huge steaming crock. but it's a start in taking responsibility for the survival of our species. personally, I am not too fussed about an increase in atmospheric carbon/temperature. what I care more about is the greedy, irresponsible plundering of irreplaceable natural resources. dammit, I want my kids to be able to afford petrol for their bikes, but thanks to 50 years of penis-size-engine-capacity bullshit, and absolutely PATHETIC fuel efficiency standards (in the US, SUVs are exempt from meeting even these, as they are classified as light trucks. go figure), that is becoming increasingly unlikely.

we cannot sustain this greed and ignorance! take your head out of the sand!
Oh ,obviously a struggler (general believer in conspiracies ,anti globalisation,protesting etc.)
Anthropogenetic global warming has not been proven,though if you wish to do research to prove it false you would be pushing shit up hill to try and get funding.
All the funding goes to proving it is true ,in spite of some major inconsistancies in the theory.That is why it's the "Global warming industry."
Spectrographic analysis of Mars has shown a similar rise in global temperatures as is occurring on Earth.
Among others ;David Bellamy and the fellow who put forward the Gaia Hypothesis (his name escapes me ) the father of the green movement,do not support anthropogenetic global warming.
How come after 9/11,when airlines over the U.S. were grounded for weeks,
did satellite data show a noticable increase in temperature over the U.S.?

Do research before you believe :bs: anything :bs: you are told.

[Pixie]

The Earth is NOT a closed system. The energy of the Moon's orbit predicates weather for decades ahead, and a drop in particular type of solar activity, such as sunspots or solar flares can mean things like a drop in Ozone in the upper atmosphere, and man with his little goldfish like memory for cataclysms forgetting what solar flares can do to electronics in a geosynchronous orbit. Global warming is a naturally occuring phenomena. Oceans do not rise because ice caps melt, they rise because liquids have greater volume as their energy state changes on the way to becoming a vapour. Excited atoms take up more room. Even David Bellamy, a committed long term conservationist, doesn't accept that man has precipitated the recent slight upward trend in global temperatures. More CO2 leaks out of the Mid-Atlantic trench in a week than man produces in a decade.

Conspiracies are mammothly less likely than complete and utter screw ups. Conspiracy theorists are amusing. Greens in power makes my skin crawl.
I applaud you for understanding the cause of sea level rise-Augie Auer apparently can't when he said that an ice cube in a glass does not raise the level of water in the glass when it melts

[Pixie]

arghgh! it's attitudes like this that are actively condemning our grandchildren to eking out an existence on a shattered hulk of a planet.

I assume you mean 'anthropogenic'; a stunning display of your ability to (mis)use big words, while not quite comprehending exactly what you are saying. are you implying that an 'industry' can somehow arise out of thin air; and not be created by man?

are you aware of the highly concerted effort to undermine climate change science? publicly and not-so-publically bankrolled by, you guessed it, oil corporations and car manufacturers. they provide arguments as to how climate change science exists only to perpetuate itself, and also try to refute irrefutable data about what is happening to our planet. they are promoting ignorant business-as-usual attitudes, out of a fear of denting the Holy GDP/share price. way to go guys...
ok, the kyoto protocol is a huge steaming crock. but it's a start in taking responsibility for the survival of our species. personally, I am not too fussed about an increase in atmospheric carbon/temperature. what I care more about is the greedy, irresponsible plundering of irreplaceable natural resources. dammit, I want my kids to be able to afford petrol for their bikes, but thanks to 50 years of penis-size-engine-capacity bullshit, and absolutely PATHETIC fuel efficiency standards (in the US, SUVs are exempt from meeting even these, as they are classified as light trucks. go figure), that is becoming increasingly unlikely.

we cannot sustain this greed and ignorance! take your head out of the sand!
By the way... when are you going to sell the filthy polluting motorcycle?

[Pixie]

Thanks for the constructive input. :no:



Ahh - our old friend again Mr Gross Generalisation.
You have me mistaken-I'm Mr. Svelte Generalisation.

[Brian d marge]

It's called paraphrasing, you literal clodhopper. ;)

It also refers to the single minded application of a particular view contrary to scientific, spiritual, or popular belief. A dogmatic approach to old fashioned values and technology, despite the constant of change.
????

AND?????
to restate my question for the challanged ,,where does Ludditism come into that post ??
or was it fired off without much thought given :D

Mr Clod hopper if you dont mind ( As I like to keep the distinction clear)

Stephen

[Jamezo]

fun...



Oceans do not rise because ice caps melt, they rise because liquids have greater volume as their energy state changes on the way to becoming a vapour. Excited atoms take up more room.


perfectly true. when did I even mention ice caps? doesn't matter, the ocean temp./volume relationship is pretty linear.



More CO2 leaks out of the Mid-Atlantic trench in a week than man produces in a decade.


net? I would not believe that without seeing something to back it up. the ocean as a whole is constantly absorbing and releasing CO2. surely you know that the ocean has been buffering the recent increase in CO2 levels (source nonwithstanding), sheilding something in the order of 80% of atmospheric releases, and increasing the acidity as a result.



Conspiracies are mammothly less likely than complete and utter screw ups. Conspiracy theorists are amusing. Greens in power makes my skin crawl.


no conspiracy required? just the natural and understandable actions of those with power defending their bottom line.

I still don't see how Hitcher thinks I am in need of a secondary school science edumacation to discuss this. show me the scientific or logical errors.

forgetting the science, what of the plain moral issues like excessive greed and the general 'fuck everybody else' attitude with regard to environmental problems?

[Blakamin]

Spectrographic analysis of Mars has shown a similar rise in global temperatures as is occurring on Earth.

does that mean the martians had too many V8s?????

[Jamezo]

Oh ,obviously a struggler (general believer in conspiracies ,anti globalisation,protesting etc.)
Anthropogenetic global warming has not been proven,though if you wish to do research to prove it false you would be pushing shit up hill to try and get funding.
All the funding goes to proving it is true ,in spite of some major inconsistancies in the theory.That is why it's the "Global warming industry."
Spectrographic analysis of Mars has shown a similar rise in global temperatures as is occurring on Earth.
Among others ;David Bellamy and the fellow who put forward the Gaia Hypothesis (his name escapes me ) the father of the green movement,do not support anthropogenetic global warming.
How come after 9/11,when airlines over the U.S. were grounded for weeks,
did satellite data show a noticable increase in temperature over the U.S.?

Do research before you believe :bs: anything :bs: you are told.

interesting food for thought, never heard that before. let's think. which could have the greater immediate effect on local temperatures? a slight dip in CO2 production (the concentration of which is not localised), or, for example, the sudden absence of aircraft contrails in the immediate area. option B has my vote :niceone:

what I would conclude from puzzles like this, is that more research needs to be done in the area, not less.

[James Deuce]

fun...



perfectly true. when did I even mention ice caps? doesn't matter, the ocean temp./volume relationship is pretty linear.



net? I would not believe that without seeing something to back it up. the ocean as a whole is constantly absorbing and releasing CO2. surely you know that the ocean has been buffering the recent increase in CO2 levels (source nonwithstanding), sheilding something in the order of 80% of atmospheric releases, and increasing the acidity as a result.



no conspiracy required? just the natural and understandable actions of those with power defending their bottom line.

I still don't see how Hitcher thinks I am in need of a secondary school science edumacation to discuss this. show me the scientific or logical errors.

forgetting the science, what of the plain moral issues like excessive greed and the general 'fuck everybody else' attitude with regard to environmental problems?

Absolutely, fuck everybody else. The only way to fix the "problem" is for millions upon millions of people to die. It's all very well to preach about the "rapacious greed", but we've gone well past the point of ever going back to the idyllic pastoral lifestyle that never existed, without reducing basic quality of life back to the nice 40% infant mortality rates of not very long ago. I'd rather my kids lived to an extreme and happy old age, than die of starvation when the Greens pull the plug on everything that causes pollution. What I want to know is how the Greens plan to plug up volcanoes, and how they expect old and young people to live through winter if they aren't allowed light fires in their Hobbit burrows and caves. There won't be any solar power, or fuell cells, because the technology required to produce them pollutes. Oh, and your world will be reduced to the span of what you can walk, because no form of transport can be created without pollution. Horses are banned because of excessive methane by the way.

The Mid-Atlantic trench is in a "burp" phase and has overwhelmed the Atlantic's ability to buffer CO2. Surely you know that. You'd also know that it has contributed to the Atlantic plankton die off, and the drastic consequences that has had for the food chain in the ocean. The Greenies have long blamed over fishing, but there are other contributing factors as well.

Augie Auer is actually correct. The Ice has already displaced 99.8% of the water it is going to displace and it is not enough to appreciably raise the temperature of the water itself. However if you artificially raise the temperature of the water 1degC (which the overstated Greenhouse Gas effect can cause - I say over stated because it is natural. It would happen with our without us.), which in itself takes a tremendous amount of energy in relation to the energy stored in the water, you begin to run into volumetric issues. There are cycles recorded in geological strata across the spread of what humans would regard as a habitable planet where the Earth's mean temp has ranged from -20degC to +60degC. The magnetic poles have flipped more than once too, and at various times anything from 20 feet above what we call sea level was innundated because of warm oceans.

The only constant is change, and the only constant of humanity is that we will continue to overuse resource, and continue to adapt to the consequences.

[James Deuce]

????

AND?????
to restate my question for the challanged ,,where does Ludditism come into that post ??
or was it fired off without much thought given :D

Mr Clod hopper if you dont mind ( As I like to keep the distinction clear)

Stephen

Roger. "Mr" it is. :D

[Jamezo]

Jim2, now yuo are being teh sillay manturnip! I thought you were above ridiculous scare tactics. not even the Greens want a situation anything like you describe.

I know what I want, I just want to arrest the outright rape and pillage of our ONLY planet. you speak of wanting to sustain our lifestyle? that's just great, but there are a million ways we can help avoid that frightening vision you described being imposed on future generations, not because of chosen frugality, but an absolute depletion of resources. it would not be pretty. and I'll be damned if I'll sit back and let some rich old guys hasten that day for their personal gain.

[James Deuce]

Jim2, now yuo are being teh sillay manturnip! I thought you were above ridiculous scare tactics. not even the Greens want a situation anything like you describe.

I know what I want, I just want to arrest the outright rape and pillage of our ONLY planet. you speak of wanting to sustain our lifestyle? that's just great, but there are a million ways we can help avoid that frightening vision you described being imposed on future generations, not because of chosen frugality, but an absolute depletion of resources. it would not be pretty. and I'll be damned if I'll sit back and let some rich old guys hasten that day for their personal gain.

O really?

They're not scare tactics. The reality is that if you want to achieve a non-polluting society, that is what it will take.

I really don't give two figs, so long as I can feed my family and improve my lifestyle. Isn't that what I was sold when I was growing up? If the Greens were even faintly commited to achieving the goals they lay out, their first goal would be to remove all forms of personal transportation. That includes motorcycles, and push bikes The process of creating and running individually owned vehicles is incredibly wasteful. It is certainly what I would target as the easiest way of reducing resource usage. But I fear I've said some things that people don't want to hear. Bugger. No one will vote for me.

You are utterly wrong in your assumption that there are a "million" ways to change things. The type of change required to avoid the future you describe requires wholesale change to individual freedoms in regard to transport, living space, work environment, the type of work people do, clothing, and entertainment. The reality is that just about everything you do requires some input from the "evil" petrochemical industries that you despise. And I'll bet you willingly pay for it. You've definitely got SEP syndrome. If you are not willing to take a stand, and only wear homespun clothing, walk everywhere, only make music with instruments you carved from drift wood, and only eat food you grow yourself, then you are the same as me. You don't care.

[Gremlin]

You don't care.
Brutal, blunt but pretty true. However, by even doing a little, it can make a difference if everybody is just doing a little here and there.

How many people then, by that definition actually care?? :msn-wink:

Lets face it, there are a lot of people who don't have much to do. They need something to do.

As long as the planet lasts for me, I'm OK :D :laugh: :killingme

And thats exactly why we are supposedly heading for disaster... :drinknsin

[danb]

Brutal, blunt but pretty true. However, by even doing a little, it can make a difference if everybody is just doing a little here and there.

How many people then, by that definition actually care?? :msn-wink:

Lets face it, there are a lot of people who don't have much to do. They need something to do.

As long as the planet lasts for me, I'm OK :D :laugh: :killingme

And thats exactly why we are supposedly heading for disaster... :drinknsin

And I suppose you dont have any kids or dont want kids. :whistle:

[Gremlin]

And I suppose you dont have any kids or dont want kids. :whistle:
nope, not a single ankle biter in sight, nor in the near future. I'm all alone, except for my "loved" girl. And she's a little heavy in bed. Makes it much easier, and nice and biased.

Although having a kid would mean that "something" has happened. I wouldn't mind that part. Just none of those "beautiful" biker chicks please...

I would like the good bits, and none of the bad bits... :msn-wink:

[Jamezo]

O really?

They're not scare tactics. The reality is that if you want to achieve a non-polluting society, that is what it will take.

I really don't give two figs, so long as I can feed my family and improve my lifestyle. Isn't that what I was sold when I was growing up? If the Greens were even faintly commited to achieving the goals they lay out, their first goal would be to remove all forms of personal transportation. That includes motorcycles, and push bikes The process of creating and running individually owned vehicles is incredibly wasteful. It is certainly what I would target as the easiest way of reducing resource usage. But I fear I've said some things that people don't want to hear. Bugger. No one will vote for me.

You are utterly wrong in your assumption that there are a "million" ways to change things. The type of change required to avoid the future you describe requires wholesale change to individual freedoms in regard to transport, living space, work environment, the type of work people do, clothing, and entertainment. The reality is that just about everything you do requires some input from the "evil" petrochemical industries that you despise. And I'll bet you willingly pay for it. You've definitely got SEP syndrome. If you are not willing to take a stand, and only wear homespun clothing, walk everywhere, only make music with instruments you carved from drift wood, and only eat food you grow yourself, then you are the same as me. You don't care.

I don't think you're quite feeling me here. I don't want to make wholesale changes to our lifestyle, though I realise the costs of everything we do and consume. I just want to reduce the amount of outright waste and greed, so that future generations may enjoy all that we do.

I never described a 'no more bicycles' situation, you did! life is about comprimises, I'm sure even the greens would recognise the lesser of two evils.

[TwoSeven]

How many people here actually know what the term 'vested interest' means?

Just in case.



an interest in which there is a fixed right to present or future enjoyment and that can be conveyed to another groups that seek to control a social system or activity from which they derive private benefit.


New Zealand is what’s called a 2nd order industrial nation with a focus on agricultural and mechanical output. Basically, farm labour and machinery – yes there are examples of alternatives, but not as a general trend.

A vested interest often occurs in this kind of industry when there is little or no foreign competition to force the modernisation of industrial process which would cause most companies into a continuous cycle of technology investment, modernisation, higher productivity with reduce industrial waste. Instead, the vested interest allows companies to lobby government so that they can continue diverting funds from modernisation to profit taking. We can see this happening in telecommunications and the power industry.

Because of its isolation New Zealand also sufferers from lack of communication which tends to lead to hick ignorance about technology and industry, you can tell by the outmoded views that people have here about issues such as greenism that during the 60s and 70s was the playing ground of the unionists, socialists and communists, but is now the domain of the capitalist bio-tech and research fields (part of the policies of New Labour). Most of NZ still holds the views of the 70s brigade - simply because there has been no exposure to modern technology.

Isolationism also presents itself in the stigma of 'tall poppy syndrome' which is a manifestation of reluctance to change - a typical tendency of a mechanical farming culture during a period of stability. Those who are proponents of change are seen as radical and fringe lunatic and ostracised, with those who are successful (even if they are just doing what people in other countries do every day) are seen as guru's and heroes to be worshiped.

The agricultural revolution that is still highly prevalent in New Zealand occurred in the UK in the 18th century. One of the big events during that period was the development of technology such as the gig mill in the late 1790s which ended the error of specialist cottage industry that had been wide spread during earlier times. This is occurring now in New Zealand with the introduction of modern technologies such as bio-tech and alternative fuels – industries which threaten to undercut the old style coal and energy production methods that depend on it. The resultant backlash of the introduction of technology during this 18th century era in the UK was represented most by the actions of the frame breakers – a movement was involved in a semi-political backlash in that they partook of smashing the frames belonging to the mills that were putting them out of business – Members signed their proclamations ‘Ned Ludd of Sherwood forest’ and hence formed the luddite movement.

As I said above – modern greenism is primarily involved in using technology and science to investigate and improve the production of goods without producing environmental waste – as an alternative means it also focuses on creating business that can make a profit in processing and recycling waste and negative output from other business. For example laws in Germany that require all auto makers to produce recyclable vehicles as produced an entire new industry of firms that specialise in that side of the industry the result is the price of vehicles dropped significantly as the technology improvement that was achieved fed back into society over time. UK legislation that requires a focus to be put on alternative energy as resulted in a new industry of wave generation and wind generation production facilities that is resulting in a lower cost of electricity production from that segment which in turn is passing on its savings to industry segments with high electricity requirements. Likewise the US government has legislated a 10% dependency of bio-fuels that has a direct flow on for consumer generated demand for fuel thru to the suppliers of the sunflower oil that the fuels are made from. A move beneficial for both US farmers who will be unable to supply the entire market and third world countries that are able to fill the resultant demand at a low cost of production.

Without continued exposure to foreign markets and the pressures of industrial change that would be exerted from them, New Zealand really needs to change from within in order to keep and maintain a technological advantage in other areas outside of agriculture. Greenism is a mechanism for providing that internal pressure but is being effectively combated by the vested interests of the industrial coal fired luddite brigade and the general ignorance of the local population. Those that are reluctant to change because there are simply kept ignorant of the benefits that could be seized upon should they so desire to commit to such self improvement. Thus I think the social desire of the local luddite for the secure ness of what they know over what they don’t know will doom them to gradually slide down the poverty scale as the rest of society continues to advance around them. We can already see the gap between the richer and poorer starting to occur with the throes of government trying to hide this inequality by producing more and more legislation and it is also mirrored in the battles of the telecommunications and power industries that are also firm in their reluctance to change forcing the technology gap to also have an impact, yet it is quite clear that if basic education was provided to teach the luddite local to be a proponent of change, there would be a marked change in the fortunes of this country.

[James Deuce]

How many people here actually know what the term 'vested interest' means?

Just in case.



New Zealand is what’s called a 2nd order industrial nation with a focus on agricultural and mechanical output. Basically, farm labour and machinery – yes there are examples of alternatives, but not as a general trend.

A vested interest often occurs in this kind of industry when there is little or no foreign competition to force the modernisation of industrial process which would cause most companies into a continuous cycle of technology investment, modernisation, higher productivity with reduce industrial waste. Instead, the vested interest allows companies to lobby government so that they can continue diverting funds from modernisation to profit taking. We can see this happening in telecommunications and the power industry.

Because of its isolation New Zealand also sufferers from lack of communication which tends to lead to hick ignorance about technology and industry, you can tell by the outmoded views that people have here about issues such as greenism that during the 60s and 70s was the playing ground of the unionists, socialists and communists, but is now the domain of the capitalist bio-tech and research fields (part of the policies of New Labour). Most of NZ still holds the views of the 70s brigade - simply because there has been no exposure to modern technology.

Isolationism also presents itself in the stigma of 'tall poppy syndrome' which is a manifestation of reluctance to change - a typical tendency of a mechanical farming culture during a period of stability. Those who are proponents of change are seen as radical and fringe lunatic and ostracised, with those who are successful (even if they are just doing what people in other countries do every day) are seen as guru's and heroes to be worshiped.

The agricultural revolution that is still highly prevalent in New Zealand occurred in the UK in the 18th century. One of the big events during that period was the development of technology such as the gig mill in the late 1790s which ended the error of specialist cottage industry that had been wide spread during earlier times. This is occurring now in New Zealand with the introduction of modern technologies such as bio-tech and alternative fuels – industries which threaten to undercut the old style coal and energy production methods that depend on it. The resultant backlash of the introduction of technology during this 18th century era in the UK was represented most by the actions of the frame breakers – a movement was involved in a semi-political backlash in that they partook of smashing the frames belonging to the mills that were putting them out of business – Members signed their proclamations ‘Ned Ludd of Sherwood forest’ and hence formed the luddite movement.

As I said above – modern greenism is primarily involved in using technology and science to investigate and improve the production of goods without producing environmental waste – as an alternative means it also focuses on creating business that can make a profit in processing and recycling waste and negative output from other business. For example laws in Germany that require all auto makers to produce recyclable vehicles as produced an entire new industry of firms that specialise in that side of the industry the result is the price of vehicles dropped significantly as the technology improvement that was achieved fed back into society over time. UK legislation that requires a focus to be put on alternative energy as resulted in a new industry of wave generation and wind generation production facilities that is resulting in a lower cost of electricity production from that segment which in turn is passing on its savings to industry segments with high electricity requirements. Likewise the US government has legislated a 10% dependency of bio-fuels that has a direct flow on for consumer generated demand for fuel thru to the suppliers of the sunflower oil that the fuels are made from. A move beneficial for both US farmers who will be unable to supply the entire market and third world countries that are able to fill the resultant demand at a low cost of production.

Without continued exposure to foreign markets and the pressures of industrial change that would be exerted from them, New Zealand really needs to change from within in order to keep and maintain a technological advantage in other areas outside of agriculture. Greenism is a mechanism for providing that internal pressure but is being effectively combated by the vested interests of the industrial coal fired luddite brigade and the general ignorance of the local population. Those that are reluctant to change because there are simply kept ignorant of the benefits that could be seized upon should they so desire to commit to such self improvement. Thus I think the social desire of the local luddite for the secure ness of what they know over what they don’t know will doom them to gradually slide down the poverty scale as the rest of society continues to advance around them. We can already see the gap between the richer and poorer starting to occur with the throes of government trying to hide this inequality by producing more and more legislation and it is also mirrored in the battles of the telecommunications and power industries that are also firm in their reluctance to change forcing the technology gap to also have an impact, yet it is quite clear that if basic education was provided to teach the luddite local to be a proponent of change, there would be a marked change in the fortunes of this country.


I thought the "On Colonial Duty" tag line indicated an arrogant snob, and by hokey I was right.

Hurry up and go home please.

[James Deuce]

I don't think you're quite feeling me here. I don't want to make wholesale changes to our lifestyle, though I realise the costs of everything we do and consume. I just want to reduce the amount of outright waste and greed, so that future generations may enjoy all that we do.

I never described a 'no more bicycles' situation, you did! life is about comprimises, I'm sure even the greens would recognise the lesser of two evils.

Two Seven's approach is the lesser of two evils, however there is no median line in this issue. There are polarised views and attitudes that haven't begun to attempt to find a happy medium, and I don't think most people have even begun to think what sort of an impact wholesale "greenism" will have upon their current lifestyle. Until you stop buying stuff that has petrochemicals in it nothing will change. Recycling is not the answer as that just shifts the form of the waste until it can be recycled no more. It is a temporary solution at best.

As for NZers being stupid and under educated Two Seven, you couldn't be more wrong, but then I can't convince you of that because most people from the "home country" view us a cute little fuckwits with no idea.

Ever heard of conductive polymers? The was a stupid hick from Pongaroa that made that work.

[TwoSeven]

As for NZers being stupid and under educated Two Seven, you couldn't be more wrong, but then I can't convince you of that because most people from the "home country" view us a cute little fuckwits with no idea.


I dont believe I actually said people here are stupid but if you have self doubt in your own beliefs and foster the idea that people here are stupid and fuckwits then thats your opinion not mine.

However, making plastic conductive was not invented by someone in new zealand and I cant find any information to say that any of the work was funded by new zealand or a new zealand institute. A brief examination of thhe history of polyacetylene shows the initial work being done by a japanese man with the nobel prize being given to three individuals who were working in the US. One of the members having been born in NZ but educated mainly overseas. I believe the technology of conductive plastic (polymers) is of american origin.

But this does re-enfornce my view that exposre to foreign competitive pressures is a good thing does it not ?

[Jamezo]

ok, well that's all very nice. but all the technological and market-driven solutions under the sun won't work if people are apathetic about the state of teh planetz0r.

people won't care about introducing more efficient technologies if they are largely unaware of the issues facing us, or if they plain just couldn't care either way. there needs to be a change in the popular conscience for any meaningful progress towards efficiency is made.

and I can't type that well, my right arm is broken.... 16 days till I'm castless! I broke it pretty damn good... radius and ulna clean in two, steel plates holding 'em together. two wicked scars!