What about an electric Bucket?

[bogan]

I have been working on an electric bike for a while now, wondering if it would possibly be eligible for bucket racing? Im thinking the F5 class as power/top speed would probably be around the same. Just an idea atm, as would require a change in some of the design which is currently under construction, but I figure an electric bucket would be far more fun than an electric commuter. What do you reckon?

[=cJ=]

Sounds shocking...





I'm not sure how eligible you'd be I guess, seeing as the rules haven't really got much about electrical whatzits, but I don't think that would stop you from circulating providing your bike's up to spec.

[Pumba]

Hmmm, interesting. I would say clarify it with MNZ but lets be honest they are hardly even aware that the F4 and F5 classes exist

[Trudes]

I hope I'm not the only one who read your title as "Electric Blanket"..... (cause otherwise I'm going blind) and I thought... "hmmm interesting thing to post in the bucket forum, maybe he's thinking of a cheap way to make tyre warmers" :laugh:

[ajturbo]

just build it and race it.... then worry about the class.... start at the bottom, then work your way up.... it could even take out the 600 class!!!

[F5 Dave]

Simple rules obviously never saw that coming. But I think it would be fair to let you race & if you start doing too well we'll just increase the length of the races:laugh:

[James Deuce]

Formula would be easy. You'd need to start with the same amount of potential kilojoules available to the petrolheads, which would require a chart matching charge available to track length and number of laps. Sounds hard, relatively easy. Average MotoGP bike has 650 Kilojoules of energy in its tank at the start of a race. Couple this with a maximum weight for electric bikes and you can limit range. I'll get to thinking about that one too.

[bogan]

yeh i figured bucket racing was probably pretty laid back, i wouldn't give a shit about points at all, just keen to get it on the track. What sorta top speeds do the f5's get up to? and how long is the race?

[koba]

It varies alot!
Dave will have the best answer but I would say on average an F5 bike would do just over a hundie on a long flat road.
Race length varies heaps, tracks like Kaitoke have gradient to worry about too.

[bucketracer]

Sounds shocking....

Bright Spark......

[Buckets4Me]

Bright Spark......

will it need a jump start to get going ??

[marsheng]

Environmentaly friendly. Oh yea, till we get back to the pits and all the 2smoke generators going balls to the wall charging the batteries and making a huge din.

Great project.

[TZ350]

will it need a jump start to get going ??

Did you mean "Jump the Start".....or "Jumped UpStart"......

[bogan]

It varies alot!
Dave will have the best answer but I would say on average an F5 bike would do just over a hundie on a long flat road.
Race length varies heaps, tracks like Kaitoke have gradient to worry about too.

So that'd translate to bout 70k on track perhaps? 15 min races ish? (just a guess as MX is usually bout that long)


Environmentaly friendly. Oh yea, till we get back to the pits and all the 2smoke generators going balls to the wall charging the batteries and making a huge din.

Great project.

I'd probly get a four stroke genny, so would still be more efficient and environmentally freindly than all the other bikes on the track:whistle:

[F5 Dave]

My std 5.5hp Roadbike RG did an indicated 118 (gen105kph) on the road. I'd assume my bike could go faster.

But yeah 70-80k on a tight kart track is about right.

But lets not try & get into an environmental disscussion. You'd be on a hiding to nothing trying to argue the case unless you use a superconductor potato battery & develop a generator with somewhere near 100% efficency.

[bogan]

My std 5.5hp Roadbike RG did an indicated 118 (gen105kph) on the road. I'd assume my bike could go faster.

But yeah 70-80k on a tight kart track is about right.


Excellent, thats about what the gearing is set at atm (only has one gear you see)

[ellipsis]

I did see a bucket rider walking around the pits at Levels last Saturday with an electric jug, he was lookin for somewhere to plug it in, maybe you two should get together and talk technical sometime....

[Buckets4Me]

the simple answer is NO !!!!!



24-2-4 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing,
Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted.
There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility.
All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged.


unless you can show me a production motorbike with an electric engine

[bogan]

the simple answer is NO !!!!!



24-2-4 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing,
Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted.
There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility.
All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged.


unless you can show me a production motorbike with an electric engine

the Brammo Enertia is the first one that springs to mind heres a link (http://www.brammo.com/learn/) I'm not sure if there is a production bike using the same motor as I am though, but I don't think there is competition bikes using it either, It is used in some robotics applications, and homebuilt bikes, so definitely not derived from competition bikes!

[Buckets4Me]

well I thought it was cut and dry
do MANZ reconise that as a bike avalible in NZ ?
24-2-4 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles.
well if you can get one go for it
till they change, qualify the rules :)

[bogan]

well I thought it was cut and dry
do MANZ reconise that as a bike avalible in NZ ?
24-2-4 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles.
well if you can get one go for it
till they change, qualify the rules :)

yeh I was hoping it'd be relatively cut and dry, as there is a fair amount of interpretation required to get the existing rules applicable to an electric it is probably best I just send an email to somebody well acquainted with rules, and who has the clout to decide one way or another.

least I know I qualify on one of the rules anyway

Bikes must be silenced as per MNZ or local track rules (whichever is the lower level).

[speedpro]

Forget the rules, just turn up, it's bucket racing. Unless it's a blatant cheating attempt to win nobody is going to care.

[bogan]

Forget the rules, just turn up, it's bucket racing. Unless it's a blatant cheating attempt to win nobody is going to care.

yeh but with electric bikes being a touchy subject for some it wouldn't surprise me if somebody complained, regardless of what position I would finish

[bucketracer]

Show me where in the rules it says that the F4/F5 motor must actually be propelling you at the time of the race.

Get a small pit bike motor say 49cc, F5 legal and use it to run a generator that charges the battery/s the night before, plenty of cheep car/truck alternators around and run the electric bike in F5.

No rule says that you can't use your F5 legal motor to store energy for later use on the track.

And if you can't get away with that then copy the Diesel Electric trains and run the bike Petrol/Electric with a battery. Batterys on buckets must be allowed as you see plenty of them.

Another possibility is to use the electric motor as a break entering the corners by storing energy in a big capacitor which can then be dumped back into the motor on the next straight giving the bike a super burst of acceleration.

Or you could use the braking effect of the electric motor to spin up a flywheel. The flywheels inertial energy is then used to catapult the bike down the next straight.

God what fun electric bikes could be.


.

[Buckets4Me]

yeh but with electric bikes being a touchy subject for some it wouldn't surprise me if somebody complained, regardless of what position I would finish

as bucket racer said do it
it costs money to complain so unless you are winning or making an ass of yourself
you should be fine
also I want to see how this goes (I think it has potential)

[NSR143]

yeh but with electric bikes being a touchy subject for some it wouldn't surprise me if somebody complained, regardless of what position I would finish

you can come and race with us, we'd give you a place on the grid until you/we figured out how to place you in the rules(suplimental or otherwise) might end up you could have 2 x 9V batteries, one for your tongue and one for the bike. but seriously we'd be happy to see you at the Hastings track any time.

[ajturbo]

Forget the rules, just turn up, it's bucket racing. Unless it's a blatant cheating attempt to win nobody is going to care.


yeah... no one has noticed my turbo charged 2stroke yet.....

[Yow Ling]

All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged.


That part of the rules should kill it.

I think in time they may be forced upon us but it is very hard to compare like for like, how do you control the power limit, current limited? maybe a 50amp fuse in line with the motor, that would be the equivelent of putting a rod through the cases.

I dont think we have too much to worry about really, guys with total loss ignitions can barley make it through a meet, these things are total loss everything.

[bogan]

you can come and race with us, we'd give you a place on the grid until you/we figured out how to place you in the rules(suplimental or otherwise) might end up you could have 2 x 9V batteries, one for your tongue and one for the bike. but seriously we'd be happy to see you at the Hastings track any time.

choice, I may hold you to that! Most of the track/safety rules seem pretty straightforward, can get heaps of nylon to put on axels etc, no fluids to worry about, I'll assume theres no upper weight limit! and no issues with running a KR1 frame (had a 250cc two stroke in it). Will do all the wiring to comply with the standards they used in the TTXGP.

[Buckets4Me]

you could run the power cables threw the opening of a 24mm carb to get around that rule
then the engine is fed threw a 24mm carb

[ajturbo]

you could run the power cables threw the opening of a 24mm carb to get around that rule
then the engine is fed threw a 24mm carb

i like the way you can think outside the square!!!....

i would vote that as "ok"

[F5 Dave]

Gee AJ, sorry are you under the delusion that you can vote? You're lucky that we haven't held a pillow over your head to put you out of your misery.
Yet.

OK talk is cheap, to be honest I give you about 10% chance of actually turning up with a bike that is a safe raceable unit. If you have the drive then prove me wrong. Otherwise wouldn't it just be better to put your effort into an IC engine & come have some fun. Heck the swap out Electric engine could be a side project.

[bogan]

OK talk is cheap, to be honest I give you about 10% chance of actually turning up with a bike that is a safe raceable unit. If you have the drive then prove me wrong. Otherwise wouldn't it just be better to put your effort into an IC engine & come have some fun. Heck the swap out Electric engine could be a side project.

well tbh, its kb, where talk is less than cheap, its worthless :dodge:

I've already got pretty much all the mechanical done on it, just the drive circuitry to go. Now thinking track maybe a better place for it than the road ;)

[Buckets4Me]

well tbh, its kb, where talk is less than cheap, its worthless :dodge:



to true
but I want to see this thing going
good luck with the progect and more pics please
what motor and batteries are you using ????

it's far to easy for us to take the piss out of a project like this
and far to hard to actualy get it done and rideable

I realy doubt it will be class eligable but bring it along anyway
and as TZ350 said use a 49cc motor to chrage the batteries the day before and race it in f5 against the likes of F5Dave :)
he could do with some compitition (just dont knock him off)

[F5 Dave]

Pictures or it didn't happen. Oh. I see.

Ok then bring it along.

If it is nyloned up & safe I'm sure you will be able to race albeit without points in worst case scenario.

[bogan]

to true
but I want to see this thing going
good luck with the progect and more pics please
what motor and batteries are you using ????

do ya one better, pics and a story!

I borrowed a mates PWM controller (from an electric pushbike) to power it a while ago, also used his old as batteries, so was rolling around for a while, was well slow, which we knew it would be, but using a better controller will overcome that. With his it had a top speed of bout 40kmhr, with more batteries (now got 3 AGM lead acids in it), and better wiring I'm hoping for about 70kmhr top speed.

In efforts to push the speed a little bit higher i decided to grab some jumper cables and use them to bypass the controller once up to speed, unfortunately it didnt bypass the small guage wiring so didnt gain any top speed. But coming up to a roundabout I realised how much torque the motor has when I tried to brake (with jumper cable still connected), short answer is lots :D had to trash about ripping cables off so I could slow down enough to take the turn :shit:

[woodyracer]

looks cool, but no offence......70km/h isnt fast enough.....even at mt wellignton my speedo is reading 83km/h.......

You'll need the top speed to be about 80km/h to be compeditive.

Your massive amounts of torque will come in handy,

Good luck with the build, -Max

[NSR143]

choice, I may hold you to that! Most of the track/safety rules seem pretty straightforward, can get heaps of nylon to put on axels etc, no fluids to worry about, I'll assume theres no upper weight limit! and no issues with running a KR1 frame (had a 250cc two stroke in it). Will do all the wiring to comply with the standards they used in the TTXGP.

use an FJ1200 frame if you want! where are you based? i organise the meetings and send out the emails. I would not think anyone would mind an experimental bike. Feel free to PM or email me to get your email on our database. we look forward to seeing you... Feb the 7th too soon?

[bogan]

use an FJ1200 frame if you want! where are you based? i organise the meetings and send out the emails. I would not think anyone would mind an experimental bike. Feel free to PM or email me to get your email on our database. we look forward to seeing you... Feb the 7th too soon?

hmm, nah shud have it going by then, you mean feb 7th 2011 right :lol: Will flick you a PM once its going good, possibly april this year

[Henk]

When this is going please make it known where and when it's going to get a run. I for one would love to see it in action.

[=cJ=]

When this is going please make it known where and when it's going to get a run. I for one would love to see it in action.

Oh hell yes. Looking impressive so far. WHere in plmy are ya, would be keen to have a shufti sometime :)

[bogan]

Oh hell yes. Looking impressive so far. WHere in plmy are ya, would be keen to have a shufti sometime :)

well just got told today our landy is gonna sell our flat, so not really sure where Ill be, will let ya (and other manawatuians) know when its good to go for test riding. Ya wont see it on a FNR, but maybe itll get a few tags.

[Bert]

.......will let ya (and other manawatuians) know when its good to go for test riding.

massey in the weekends. Cool project, still have the KR motor????

[bogan]

massey in the weekends. Cool project, still have the KR motor????

yeh, barrels have big score marks down the rear, and powervalves dont work

[bucketracer]

well tbh, its kb, where talk is less than cheap, its worthless :dodge:

I've already got pretty much all the mechanical done on it, just the drive circuitry to go. Now thinking track maybe a better place for it than the road ;)

It runs, I am impressed, :woohoo: but the point of this project is?????????.......:scratch:

.

[bogan]

the point of a project you say, you've lost me there! In my experience theres very little correlation between doing a project, and it having a point. I just did it cos I wanted to mess round with EV tech.

[Trudes]

the point of a project you say, you've lost me there! In my experience theres very little correlation between doing a project, and it having a point. I just did it cos I wanted to mess round with EV tech.

I'm sure most inventors and explorers got asked.... why? Because I wanted to see what it would do, what would happen, what was on the other side, because it was there.... the answer is, why not?
Good on you for tinkering...... isn't that part of bucket building? Oh that's right, FXRs don't need to be (really shouldn't be) "tinkered" with :dodge: :laugh:

[=cJ=]

It runs, I am impressed, :woohoo: but the point of this project is?????????.......:scratch:

.

If it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is, then figure it out from there... :D

[jasonu]

well I thought it was cut and dry
do MANZ reconise that as a bike avalible in NZ ?
24-2-4 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles.
well if you can get one go for it
till they change, qualify the rules :)

Doesn't have to be available in NZ

[jasonu]

Forget the rules, just turn up, it's bucket racing. Unless it's a blatant cheating attempt to win nobody is going to care.

Or if it wins, then folks will squeal...

[jasonu]

[QUOTE=bucketracer;1129612030]Show me where in the rules it says that the F4/F5 motor must actually be propelling you at the time of the race.



Another possibility is to use the electric motor as a break entering the corners by storing energy in a big capacitor which can then be dumped back into the motor on the next straight giving the bike a super burst of acceleration.




That is the now defunct KERS system they were using in F1 up to the end of last year. They don't use it anymore so make 'em an offer.

[mattbishop]

Bogan, if they won't let us race as a bucket, then I say we just start our own class. I'd race ya if you can get your bike down to chch...

This is my bike here, based on an RG150. I've got up to 110 km/hr out the back of the Christchurch airport, so sounds like I've got the top end to race a bucket.

http://bvt.co.nz/developmentlabs.htm

I'l be very interested to see if you do get it on the track, I'm planning to do similar down this way.

[bogan]

Bogan, if they won't let us race as a bucket, then I say we just start our own class. I'd race ya if you can get your bike down to chch...

This is my bike here, based on an RG150. I've got up to 110 km/hr out the back of the Christchurch airport, so sounds like I've got the top end to race a bucket.

http://bvt.co.nz/developmentlabs.htm

I'l be very interested to see if you do get it on the track, I'm planning to do similar down this way.

sounds like Ill be the one interested to see if your bike makes it onto the track first! Havent been able to work on mine for a while as we had to move flats, landy told us we had to get out the day after i unpacked my electric bike gear to work on it, hoping to get into the new flat and resume work on it next week though.

[Buckets4Me]

so thats 2
this is starting to get interesting

[bucketracer]

I see one of the electric bikes is 3kw, a good bucket is 10-12kw or more, interesting project though.

[woodyracer]

I see one of the electric bikes is 3kw, a good bucket is 10-12kw or more, interesting project though.

legend tells of 30kw buckets

[bucketracer]

legend tells of 30kw buckets

30kw.......How many HP is 30kw Woody????

[F5 Dave]

Legend tells of a strange feathered beast stalking the land & eating stupid people whilst they sleep.

[mattbishop]

Yah, my bike has a motor that's specced for 3kW continuous operation.

But that's a spec for a stationary motor and running 24/7. Motor can handle about 10 times that power for short periods of time and mounted on a motorcycle with plenty of air cooling. At the moment my batteries limit me to a technical figure of 14.4 kW. Not sure what actual output is though, that's why it'd be so interesting to compare to a bucket which, on paper, should have similar performance.

[F5 Dave]

Theoretically if weight isn't too much electric bike should launch starts pretty well.

[woodyracer]

30kw.......How many HP is 30kw Woody????

more than you need, ahaaaah

[woodyracer]

Legend tells of a strange feathered beast stalking the land & eating stupid people whilst they sleep.

you better weld together a cage to sit in then

[TZ350]

Motor can handle about 10 times that power for short periods of time ......... At the moment my batteries limit me to a technical figure of 14.4 kW.

Rough rull of thumb 750w=1hp....so 14 kW will be about 18hp and 30 kW is about 40hp........

18hp, would make a good bucket....

[Buckets4Me]

Rough rull of thumb 750w=1hp....so 14 kW will be about 18hp and 30 kW is about 40hp........

18hp, would make a good bucket....

and 40hp will make a better bucket :)

[bogan]

Rough rull of thumb 750w=1hp....so 14 kW will be about 18hp and 30 kW is about 40hp........

18hp, would make a good bucket....

yeh, my motor is rated to 18hp, or 16hp, though its hard to compare electric to petrol by hp, most electric motors are capable of constant torque thoughout the range, giving better acceleration for a given top hp than petrol, which have higher torque at higher revs (generaly). Though most electrics seem to be direct drive (no gears) so lower acceleration at slow speeds. These differences should make for some interesting racing i reckon!

[bogan]

time for an update. Doesn't look like my current project is gonna be bucketable, acceleration was alright, but top speed was a little low. Was just tipping 50kmhr before parts of it caught fire, reckon it still had another 10kmhr in it, but thats still a bit off the pace.

However it was pretty fun to ride :D and ill be saving up for better kit which will be suitable for racing eventually.

[F5 Dave]

Well at least you were honest about it. I prophesised about 10% likelihood of a raceable bike, but you did get a lot closer than I expected.

So the real question is when is the dirty IC engine being sloted in so you could race?

[bogan]

Well at least you were honest about it. I prophesised about 10% likelihood of a raceable bike, but you did get a lot closer than I expected.

So the real question is when is the <s>dirty IC engine</s> nice clean LiFePo battery pack and new controller being sloted in so you could race?

fixed it for ya ;), and answer is whenever I get enough money :D, hoping to finish studying in a year, so sometime round then :yes:

[F5 Dave]

LiFePo battery. You mean the ones that seem to regularly cause fires & whose materials are strip mined (and landfilled when short life is over) then charged by coal or gas fired power stations?

[bogan]

LiFePo battery. You mean the ones that seem to regularly cause fires & whose materials are strip mined (and landfilled when short life is over) then charged by coal or gas fired power stations?

hmmm, hadn't heard that they cause fires, think thats Lithium ion batterys, rest sounds about right though, though i'll get my power from the wind generators :D

[k14]

LiFePo battery. You mean the ones that seem to regularly cause fires & whose materials are strip mined (and landfilled when short life is over) then charged by coal or gas fired power stations?
In New Zealand its about 60% hydro and wind, 10% geothermal and 30% gas/coal... :)

[F5 Dave]

Heya Kirk.
Yeah I know, just making the point that the power has to come from somewhere, people seem to think that EVs are carbon neutral or whatever the term is. The mining & production is the messiest part & it is all being done in a dirty factory in China 'cause it's cheap & if you can't see it it isn't happening.

But don't worry the Emissions trading scheme will move some money from one pair of hands to the other & that will somehow change things & save the day. hoobloodyrah.

[bogan]

Heya Kirk.
Yeah I know, just making the point that the power has to come from somewhere, people seem to think that EVs are carbon neutral or whatever the term is. The mining & production is the messiest part & it is all being done in a dirty factory in China 'cause it's cheap & if you can't see it it isn't happening.

But don't worry the Emissions trading scheme will move some money from one pair of hands to the other & that will somehow change things & save the day. hoobloodyrah.

yeh i'm not one of them people, half of one, 6 dozen of the other sort of thing. I just like the technology, and its something I can get into all the finer details and make something exactly as I want it, next one I want without the flames!

[Buckets4Me]

yeh i'm not one of them people, half of one, 6 dozen of the other sort of thing. I just like the technology, and its something I can get into all the finer details and make something exactly as I want it, next one I want without the flames!

glad to hear that you are still working on this project
but I want video of the bike and flames :)

[bogan]

glad to hear that you are still working on this project
but I want video of the bike and flames :)

yeh, we didn't manage to get pictures of the flames, too busy putting them out while going 50ish kmhr, good thing it was only an electrical fire!

attaches some pics of it though

[Buckets4Me]

attaches some pics of it though

looking better :) very cool

[Buckets4Me]

OK talk is cheap, to be honest I give you about 10% chance of actually turning up with a bike that is a safe raceable unit. I

well I dont think he has turned up or made it safe (unless you wear fireproof undies)

But he is still at it so good on him I say
and ye when you have it going turn up will ya

[mattbishop]

Bogan, sad to hear your first attempt went up in flames. You should keep on it though, I need some competition!

I got my bike on the track the other day, at a training day at Ruapuna. I was easily the slowest bike there, but then I was the only electric too. Got up to 110 k's on the straight and a lap time of about 3:04 min (most buckets are apparently around 2:20, so definitely some room for improvement). I couldn't get all the acceleration available as I kept overheating the controller (it cuts back to 50% power when it overheats), but I reckon that's fixable with a few aero mods and then I'll give it another go.

Attached a couple of pics.
218194 218195

[Kickaha]

I got my bike on the track the other day, at a training day at Ruapuna. I was easily the slowest bike there, but then I was the only electric too. Got up to 110 k's on the straight and a lap time of about 3:04 min (most buckets are apparently around 2:20,

Most buckets will be around or under that but the fast Buckets are around 2 minutes flat,maybe even under the 2 minute mark

You will find with more track time and some tuition you would easily get under 3 minutes

Really good to see it out there to

[bogan]

Bogan, sad to hear your first attempt went up in flames. You should keep on it though, I need some competition!

I got my bike on the track the other day, at a training day at Ruapuna. I was easily the slowest bike there, but then I was the only electric too. Got up to 110 k's on the straight and a lap time of about 3:04 min (most buckets are apparently around 2:20, so definitely some room for improvement). I couldn't get all the acceleration available as I kept overheating the controller (it cuts back to 50% power when it overheats), but I reckon that's fixable with a few aero mods and then I'll give it another go.



nice work dude!

My 2nd attempt also didn't got brilliantly, got some too much EMI from the motor on throttle roll-off and controller went short circuit, one of the copper tracks blew like a fuse on the pcb, will lay some more wiring down on the PCB and redo the sheilding and try again sometime.

[saxet]

I know it's not really on topic but I caught some coverage of recent Isle Of Mann racing and there was a catergory (race) for electric bikes.It was wierd as there was almost no noise.

Fastest average lap speed ( one lap race ) was just under 100mph.

So keep it up , other people are getting closer to a viable bike.:soon:

[bogan]

I know it's not really on topic but I caught some coverage of recent Isle Of Mann racing and there was a catergory (race) for electric bikes.It was wierd as there was almost no noise.

Fastest average lap speed ( one lap race ) was just under 100mph.

So keep it up , other people are getting closer to a viable bike.:soon:

yeh, one of the teams have devloped a 'suitcase' which is motor batteries and controller all in one

<IMG src="http://plugbike.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/MotoCzysz-electric-suitcase-600x450.jpg" />

motor is oil cooled, and good for 100hp and 10kwhr, which isn't very long range, but I don't care, 100hp is still fucking awesome.

more info about it here (http://electric-vehicles-cars-bikes.blogspot.com/2010/06/motoczysz-e1pc-d1g1tal-superbike.html)

[Buckets4Me]

Well at least you were honest about it. I prophesised about 10% likelihood of a raceable bike, but you did get a lot closer than I expected.

So the real question is when is the dirty IC engine being sloted in so you could race?


Bogan, sad to hear your first attempt went up in flames. You should keep on it though, I need some competition!

I got my bike on the track the other day, at a training day at Ruapuna. I was easily the slowest bike there, but then I was the only electric too. Got up to 110 k's on the straight and a lap time of about 3:04 min (most buckets are apparently around 2:20, so definitely some room for improvement). I couldn't get all the acceleration available as I kept overheating the controller (it cuts back to 50% power when it overheats), but I reckon that's fixable with a few aero mods and then I'll give it another go.

Attached a couple of pics.
218194 218195

well I see this one got closer still

coming along nicely and better than some buckets i know of. This one made it to a track
the other one went up in flames but I hope it is back soon

[bogan]

well I see this one got closer still

coming along nicely and better than some buckets i know of. This one made it to a track
the other one went up in flames but I hope it is back soon

just to put the record straight it was only a very very tiny bit that actually caught fire, so there was less fire than your average combustion engine has during normal running, but it was a lot closer to the ballsack :blink:

tbh I wouldn't recomend building your own controller unless you really want to know how they work, fucking big effort for something thats less than 1k.

[Brian d marge]

I would like to offer any assistance I can to these electric bikes

Stephen

[bogan]

I would like to offer any assistance I can to these electric bikes

Stephen

how bout a push when it runs out of juice :laugh:

seriously though, the main difficulty is getting decent batteries for em into NZ at a decent price, NZ still has enough DIY'rs to get a significant amount of conversions done if we had a decent supply of parts I reckon.

[Damien_Toman]

Not Buckets but real electric racing bikes going hard - the electric-motorcycle GP at Infineon Raceway:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/05/ttxgp-infineon-raceway-videos/

[Brian d marge]

how bout a push when it runs out of juice :laugh:

seriously though, the main difficulty is getting decent batteries for em into NZ at a decent price, NZ still has enough DIY'rs to get a significant amount of conversions done if we had a decent supply of parts I reckon.

here my web site http://477-racing.webs.com/

I design bike bits , and have access to the auctions here , ( and know one or two people )

Try a company called prozza , they import from china ) electric scooters , all set up ready to go

I want one !

Stephen

if you want lap time in the 5 min mark I can help push

[porky]

how bout a push when it runs out of juice :laugh:

seriously though, the main difficulty is getting decent batteries for em into NZ at a decent price, NZ still has enough DIY'rs to get a significant amount of conversions done if we had a decent supply of parts I reckon.

Dont know if this is any help but http://www.robotmarketplace.com in the states maybe worth a look. Motorcycle trader has had two good write ups over the last two issues on electric.

[bogan]

Dont know if this is any help but http://www.robotmarketplace.com in the states maybe worth a look. Motorcycle trader has had two good write ups over the last two issues on electric.

yeh they are pretty good for motors, but don't seem to do lifepo4 batteries...

[bogan]

got into some more testing with a production controller this time (400amp alltrax). Not up to bucket top speed or acceleration, but only running it at half capacity to preserve the batteries. But a top speed of 50kmhr will make it a decent commuter, accelration somwhere in the scooter vicinity I would think. With a decent battery pack I would expect to double the acceleration, and possibly hit 70kmhr as is, or more with a sprocket change. So is bucketable I reckon, just gotta save up for some better batteries.

[NSR143]

got into some more testing with a production controller this time (400amp alltrax). Not up to bucket top speed or acceleration, but only running it at half capacity to preserve the batteries. But a top speed of 50kmhr will make it a decent commuter, accelration somwhere in the scooter vicinity I would think. With a decent battery pack I would expect to double the acceleration, and possibly hit 70kmhr as is, or more with a sprocket change. So is bucketable I reckon, just gotta save up for some better batteries.

get on with it!! we are waiting...

[speedpro]

What we need is a set of rules to govern electric motorcycles used in bucket racing. We'd be the first class in NZ to even consider it. Being buckets I'd think something along the lines of a maximum of 12v at say 3A, some sort of magnet restriction or specified motors, minimum and maximum number of windings, restricted to AA batteries in F5 and possibly D cells in F4. A few beers at Taupo at Christmas should see a pretty good set of rules sorted out.

[F5 Dave]

Or a long power cord, . . . but with strict rules about passing around the outside!:yes:

[hayd3n]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPVy3z_xi6g

[bogan]

get on with it!! we are waiting...

you'll be waiting a while, that shit is expensive, esecially for a guy with almost no income!


What we need is a set of rules to govern electric motorcycles used in bucket racing. We'd be the first class in NZ to even consider it. Being buckets I'd think something along the lines of a maximum of 12v at say 3A, some sort of magnet restriction or specified motors, minimum and maximum number of windings, restricted to AA batteries in F5 and possibly D cells in F4. A few beers at Taupo at Christmas should see a pretty good set of rules sorted out.

nah better idea, just restrict the drivechain so all the hairys can actually enforce the rules :bleh: 20mm toothed belt on a 400mm max diameter rear pulley should limit apply-able torque significantly!


Or a long power cord, . . . but with strict rules about passing around the outside!:yes:

but what if there's 2 electrics? :facepalm:

[Buckets4Me]

but what if there's 2 electrics? :facepalm:

double adaptor or we could splash out and get a 4 way power board 10a limit :p

[NSR143]

What we need is a set of rules to govern electric motorcycles used in bucket racing. We'd be the first class in NZ to even consider it. Being buckets I'd think something along the lines of a maximum of 12v at say 3A, some sort of magnet restriction or specified motors, minimum and maximum number of windings, restricted to AA batteries in F5 and possibly D cells in F4. A few beers at Taupo at Christmas should see a pretty good set of rules sorted out.

Perhaps for environmental reasons we could use only those pathetic 1.2v NiMh rechargeable batteries?

[Henk]

but what if there's 2 electrics? :facepalm:

We can use the standard of Macrame in the power cords at the end of the race to settle any photo finishes.

[bogan]

We can use the standard of Macrame in the power cords at the end of the race to settle any photo finishes.

At the speed they'll be going with all these new rules you could settle it with an oil painting finish :rolleyes:

[bogan]

did some more testing and turns out it's using a couple of kW just to cruise at 50kmhr, which is shit, thinking I'll take one of the calipers off an hope that helps, you guys got any other ideas? I figure bucket guys would be the most likely to know how to get that rolling friction down to a minimum...

[jasonu]

couple I figure bucket guys would be the most likely to know how to get that rolling friction down to a minimum...

Put grease on the tires and brake disks.
Sorry for the smartarse answer, I couldn't resist. Little self control don't you know...

[koba]

did some more testing and turns out it's using a couple of kW just to cruise at 50kmhr, which is shit, thinking I'll take one of the calipers off an hope that helps, you guys got any other ideas? I figure bucket guys would be the most likely to know how to get that rolling friction down to a minimum...

Removing one disk and caliper is fairly normal on a bucket.

Best to change master cylinder to one for a single disk too as ratio gets all mucked up and you end up with BAD brakes.

As for resistance; apart from ensuring all bearings and chain and sprockets are in good shape I think you'd be better served at making the motor more powerful and/or lighter.

[F5 Dave]

Try an MB100 engine & stop pissin around

[bogan]

Removing one disk and caliper is fairly normal on a bucket.

Best to change master cylinder to one for a single disk too as ratio gets all mucked up and you end up with BAD brakes.

As for resistance; apart from ensuring all bearings and chain and sprockets are in good shape I think you'd be better served at making the motor more powerful and/or lighter.

one serious outa three answers aint bad :bleh:

thanks for the tip bout the master, will try with the current one anyway, as the sponge in the brake lines may cause it to retain feel. The problem isn't power or weight, just battery capacity, so to get more range I gotta reduce the cruising current. May replace the seals in the brakes as well to see if that helps. Good thing is I get an instant readout of how much effect each change has, so I'll let you know if I find anything new that helps...

[TZ350]

Pumping the tyres up higher than normal reduces rolling resistance..............

[Buckets4Me]

Try an MB100 engine & stop pissin around
getting worried that your 10% chance of turning up with a running bike quote is going to be used again :innocent:

[koba]

one serious outa three answers aint bad :bleh:

thanks for the tip bout the master, will try with the current one anyway, as the sponge in the brake lines may cause it to retain feel. The problem isn't power or weight, just battery capacity, so to get more range I gotta reduce the cruising current. May replace the seals in the brakes as well to see if that helps. Good thing is I get an instant readout of how much effect each change has, so I'll let you know if I find anything new that helps...

If the brakes don't show any obvious signs of dragging I wouldn't waste your time.
Always address bottlenecks first, if the bottleneck is the battery capacity work on that!

[bogan]

If the brakes don't show any obvious signs of dragging I wouldn't waste your time.
Always address bottlenecks first, if the bottleneck is the battery capacity work on that!

well it's a two fold issue, theres not enough capacity for long range, and the power used to go 50kmhr is too high (so the capacity doesn't take me as far), it's around 3kw, and it should be about half that. But yeh, will find some stands and see where the rolling friction bottleneck is.

[koba]

well it's a two fold issue, theres not enough capacity for long range, and the power used to go 50kmhr is too high (so the capacity doesn't take me as far), it's around 3kw, and it should be about half that. But yeh, will find some stands and see where the rolling friction bottleneck is.

I guess you have a fine balance too with more battery meaning more power capacity but also more weight to haul around...

[koba]

I don't know if it translates directly but an average bucket would put out around 14hp PEAK which is a bit more than 10 kilowatts...

[bogan]

I guess you have a fine balance too with more battery meaning more power capacity but also more weight to haul around...

yeh, and it's a bit of a bastard to fit big blocky SLA's into a modern sports motocycle frame, could maybe get one more in there, which would be an extra 33% capacity.

[mattbishop]

Hey Bogan,

For comparison, at 50 km/hr, my bike draws 35 A. I've about 50 v across the battery pack so around 1.8 kW. That's not too different from your observations. Could be your motor efficiency is not great at that speed, 50 km/hr road speed gives me about 1200 RPM at the motor so I'd expect less than 95% efficiency, maybe around 80%.

Do ya see they'll be racing electric bikes (http://www.egrandprix.com/news.php?id=177) in Aussie next year?

[bogan]

Hey Bogan,

For comparison, at 50 km/hr, my bike draws 35 A. I've about 50 v across the battery pack so around 1.8 kW. That's not too different from your observations. Could be your motor efficiency is not great at that speed, 50 km/hr road speed gives me about 1200 RPM at the motor so I'd expect less than 95% efficiency, maybe around 80%.

Do ya see they'll be racing electric bikes (http://www.egrandprix.com/news.php?id=177) in Aussie next year?

an extra 1.2kw is a lot of wastage though (iirc its geared for 80kmhr at max motor rpm, so around 2000rpm at 50kmhr), I turned up a fitting to block of one brake hose, so should get some testing in with one caliper this week, hoping to get the charger tuned properly so can start on some range tests also.

good to hear electric racing is expanding, by the time it gets here I may just be ready for it :D

[F5 Dave]

So you really think that brake bind is slowing you down? Please! I mean unless there is a problem. Does one disc get considerably hotter when riding & not using the brake?

To test for drag, why not just ease the pistons back a touch so there is no friction. You'd need to count the number of times you need to pump the lever to get full power, but if you experimented on the driveway you should get it so there is no drag & 1 pump to get back to normal.

Why do you need to turn a fitting? Sounds like non std brake parts & in my experience bedding in can cause a failure. At least the slightly dangerous scenario I suggested above is a known temp experiment.

[bogan]

So you really think that brake bind is slowing you down? Please! I mean unless there is a problem. Does one disc get considerably hotter when riding & not using the brake?

To test for drag, why not just ease the pistons back a touch so there is no friction. You'd need to count the number of times you need to pump the lever to get full power, but if you experimented on the driveway you should get it so there is no drag & 1 pump to get back to normal.

Why do you need to turn a fitting? Sounds like non std brake parts & in my experience bedding in can cause a failure. At least the slightly dangerous scenario I suggested above is a known temp experiment.

just did some 'spin' testing, lifted front wheel off the ground and spun it by hand then counted turns.

Both calipers 3/4 of a turn :facepalm:
LH caliper 7/8 of a turn
no calipers fucking heaps
RH caliper 5.5 turns

so guess which one is no longer attached. The fitting was a little ali cylinder to block off flow to the second caliper (same size as the banjo), tried to find a replacement bolt but was a not too common size.

Did similar test with the rear, was around 2-2.5 turns, and thats including 4x as many spins on the motor.

So not inconceivable that I may cut the cruising current by a third, gutted theres wires hanging out and I can't test it now...

Will have to take that caliper apart to see what was wrong with it, probly knackered seals I'm guessing.

[Jantar]

just did some 'spin' testing, lifted front wheel off the ground and spun it by hand then counted turns.

Both calipers 3/4 of a turn :facepalm:
LH caliper 7/8 of a turn
no calipers fucking heaps
RH caliper 5.5 turns

so guess which one is no longer attached. The fitting was a little ali cylinder to block off flow to the second caliper (same size as the banjo), tried to find a replacement bolt but was a not too common size.

Did similar test with the rear, was around 2-2.5 turns, and thats including 4x as many spins on the motor.

So not inconceivable that I may cut the cruising current by a third, gutted theres wires hanging out and I can't test it now...

Will have to take that caliper apart to see what was wrong with it, probly knackered seals I'm guessing.
One of the reasons why I'm still a fan of double leading shoe drum brakes for small bikes. :yes:

There is no drag as the brake shoes are pulled off the drum by a spring.

[TZ350]

Will have to take that caliper apart to see what was wrong with it, probly knackered seals I'm guessing.

In older calipers some sort of crystalline crap can build up in the cylinder and behind the seal jaming the piston, a strip and clean often gets it working again.

When a caliper is working properly, after the brakes are applied then let go the seals should pull the pistons back a thou or so and free the pads so there is virtually no drag.


F5Daves post on brakes is timely as we are cleaning up the brakes on my new FZR bucket. Check out his post as there is plenty of good info there…..we did.

After dismantling, the gunk is scraped out of the piston seal groves and from the back and sides of the piston seals themselves and the pistons cleaned up. Hot water or Meths washes out brake fluid and cleans up rubber parts and Kero or the like can be used to clean road gunk of the metal parts.

An original post about cleaning brakes on the Team ESE thread.

I am watching your progress on the electric bucket with interest.........

[bogan]

just got back from some testing, now has just a smidge more top speed, and less cruising current, around 55kmhr and 55amps, +-5 on each for insrumentation error probably. Which is a neat number as it's one amp hour per kilometer :yes: so my 15km commute should be doable on a single charge. Both discs were still fairly warm after the ride, but unsure how much of that was from stopping, think I'll rebuild the lot anyway.

[Yow Ling]

seeing as this bike is currently going at scooter speeds why not ditch the big disks and calipers dseigned to pull up the bike from 200kph, and replace them with smaller lighter disks and a single little scooter caliper

[bogan]

seeing as this bike is currently going at scooter speeds why not ditch the big disks and calipers dseigned to pull up the bike from 200kph, and replace them with smaller lighter disks and a single little scooter caliper

would be a lot of re-engineering, and I'm hoping rebuilding the existing brakes will cut the drag down hugely again.

[speedpro]

Running a higher tyre pressure will help reduce drag as well. This is easily measured on a dyno. Get rid of any excess braking power you don't need. Drag from discs is bad enough to warm the discs without use.