Bl***dy crap NZ roads

[diggyduo]

Why are our roads built so poorly? The very time the weather heats up into perfect biking weather, our roads turn into treacle with gravel on top, mixed in with flat shiney bits that are slippery as hell. It's not like we are in a heat wave. It seems to happen as soon as the temperature heats up above 24 degrees.

I know it's possible to build roads that sustain these almighty NZ temps - I spent a couple of summers in Texas where it was routinely in the high 30's and low 40's but their roads stayed like normal, not turning into horrid falling-apart stuff like ours.

Surely melted roads must account for a decent proportion of motorcycle accidents. I'm not suggesting we should be tearing around like Valentinos, even riding at normal car pace (once in a cue behind a campervan) I've had a couple of slides when I haven't been able to avoid the melted bits.

I guess it must come down to cost - perhaps using a mix that can withstand an average NZ summer is just too expensive for our Safety Authorities to justify....

[Str8 Jacket]

Motorcycling is survival of the fittest.....

[R6_kid]

Ride to the conditions, and realise that hot sunny days aren't perfect motorcycling days in NZ, cool overcast days are - that's why autumn and spring are so great!

[colsan1]

I've riden sports bikes for 30 years and brought one to nz when i moved here.
The shite roads here really shocked me, definately the worst i've riden on.
I dumped the sports bike and not wanting to give up 2 wheels i now have a cruiser.
Tarmacadam is the answer, its used everywhere else in the world even the hot earopean countrie
who's summers make nz's look tame.
It doesnt melt, it doesnt crack and it doesnt need fecking loose stone chips scattered all over it twice a year.

[diggyduo]

Ride to the conditions, and realise that hot sunny days aren't perfect motorcycling days in NZ, cool overcast days are - that's why autumn and spring are so great!

Yep, you are right of course. But isn't it frustrating it has to be that way in NZ? Guess we can't have a perfect country afterall!

In all seriousness, I don't think it particularly responsible of Land transport (or whomever sorts the roading contracts) to happily accept hot mix that disintegrates at the first hint of summer when there are solutions that are presumably fairly simple to implement.

It's not just motorcycling that it affects either. I have shaken my head many times when I see the gouges melted chip seal creates in the chain stays and forks of road treadlies, not to mention the time it takes to clean the tar off.

For sure riding is survival of the fittest, and perhaps we should just accept it and move on. But (not wanting to sound pessimistic) sometime, somewhere, some unfortunate person going to loose the front when braking to avoid Mr 'Pull Out Infront of You person' because of melted tar and suffer an otherwise avoidable accident.

Friday night isn't really the time for negativity, and I always think we shouldn't complain unless we are willing to put pen on paper and send it to those that that have influence (where it can be filed in cabinet 13 no doubt). Sounds like a job for Monday

[Ixion]

I guess it must come down to cost - perhaps using a mix that can withstand an average NZ summer is just too expensive for our Safety Authorities to justify....

Exactly . cost and nothing else. There ar evarious grades of bitumen mix. They melt at different temperatures. The low melting ones are the cheapest.

Transit are aware of this. BRONZ has repeatedly drawn their attention to it. They know it has killed people. Their response: they have commsisioned three studies into it . And, a quote, from an email from Joanna Towler of Transit , to me



At the NZTA we maintain our roads to try and avoid bleeding and flushing, however funding is limited


And that's before we take into account the well known (but universally denied of course) practice of the contractor throwing a few bucketfulls of kerosene into the bitumen mix. Kerosene is real cheap.

[Motu]

I've had a couple of slides when I haven't been able to avoid the melted bits.
.

Look at that as a positive,I do.

Of course it's just a matter of cost,and that's an easy fix.Just jump personal tax up to 50%,increase fuel tax,increase rego costs.I'm sure we will all be prepared to pay the extra just for better roads.

Personally I'm happy with the roads as they are...more than happy,I love them.

[The Everlasting]

Yeah the roads certainly were sweating today,I just take extra care whenever i spot some melted stuff on the road.

It was particularly bad going out and back to Piha today...good ride tho..:D

[varminter]

Contractors, there's the answer of course, do it once, in summer it all falls off, or gets ripped off by trucks, viola, they get to do it again,( insert cash register noise here)

[diggyduo]

Of course it's just a matter of cost,and that's an easy fix.Just jump personal tax up to 50%,increase fuel tax,increase rego costs.I'm sure we will all be prepared to pay the extra just for better roads.
.

What about more speed cameras? That might help!

[Ixion]

Look at that as a positive,I do.

Of course it's just a matter of cost,and that's an easy fix.Just jump personal tax up to 50%,increase fuel tax,increase rego costs.I'm sure we will all be prepared to pay the extra just for better roads.

Personally I'm happy with the roads as they are...more than happy,I love them.

I'm not. I'd rather have gravel than crappy tarseal. At least it's predictable. And it improves when it's wet. There is far too much money wasted putting cheap crap-as tar seal onto minor back roads that should be left as gravel.

[diggyduo]

Sounds like you have been around the bush on this one. Is there a site/resource that holds the recent history on this? Any data is good data.


Exactly . cost and nothing else. There ar evarious grades of bitumen mix. They melt at different temperatures. The low melting ones are the cheapest.

Transit are aware of this. BRONZ has repeatedly drawn their attention to it. They know it has killed people. Their response: they have commsisioned three studies into it . And, a quote, from an email from Joanna Towler of Transit , to me



And that's before we take into account the well known (but universally denied of course) practice of the contractor throwing a few bucketfulls of kerosene into the bitumen mix. Kerosene is real cheap.

[Motu]

I'm not. I'd rather have gravel than crappy tarseal.. There is far too much money wasted putting cheap crap-as tar seal onto minor back roads that should be left as gravel.

Oh,for sure.These minor roads were gravel roads that were just graded,rolled...then sprayed with tar and spread with gravel.Never made or intended for high traffic flow,or loadings.In the last 10 or 15 years the public has become much more mobile,they are out there on rural roads in huge numbers never seen before.There is a huge work load required to bring these roads up to any decent sort of standard.I for one am not prepard to pay for it,I'll ride them as they are....and save my money.My father worked for Bitumix in the '50's,and an uncle for NZ Roadmakers at the same time....the talk was all the same,it's the same technology today...no advancement at all.

[stify]

There is far too much money wasted putting cheap crap-as tar seal onto minor back roads that should be left as gravel.

State Highway 2 really should be upgraded then...one of the most crap as patched up backroads I have the displeasure of riding everyday....

[wynw]

You want dodgy seal, head north and try some of ours!

[p.dath]

Tarmacadam is the answer, its used everywhere else in the world even the hot earopean countrie
who's summers make nz's look tame.
It doesnt melt, it doesnt crack and it doesnt need fecking loose stone chips scattered all over it twice a year.

This is what Wikipedia has to say about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarmac

The Macadam construction process also became quickly obsolete due to its high manual labour requirement

[p.dath]

My father worked for Bitumix in the '50's,and an uncle for NZ Roadmakers at the same time....the talk was all the same,it's the same technology today...no advancement at all.

Perhaps not in NZ ... I've just been reading up on the subject. It's actually quite a complex science, and many countries have done many experiments. One of the tough issues is the formula needs to vary quite a bit from country to country because the conditions are so different.

[swbarnett]

Why are our roads built so poorly?
Unfortunately, there is a very simple answer to this.

New Zealand has mediocre roads. Large country (268,021 square km) relative to a small population (4,350,377) and we travel a lot (also, we allow large trucks to chew up the roads).

Switzerland has immaculate roads. Small country (41,284 suare km) relative to larger population (7,771,600) and they don't travel much (also, no large trucks).

We just can't afford to maintain all of our roads to the same standard.

[sidecar bob]

Sounds like you should stop bleating & ride to the conditions.
Alternatively, you could go back to where you came from.
Why do people come here & then moan about it. You can still get a plane out of here.

[Movistar]

Sounds like you should stop bleating & ride to the conditions.
Alternatively, you could go back to where you came from.
Why do people come here & then moan about it. You can still get a plane out of here.

Nuff said really...

The best thing to do is put the bike away until winter. Best time of year to enjoy a day in the saddle (and on the bike...)

[pc220]

You would think that the money spent to reseal and patch certain roads every six months would be better spent by building that stretch of road using the expensive materials and techniques, that would only require maintenace on a bi annual basis. I travel HWY 1 daily between Putaruru and Atiamuri and there are sections that seem to either get ripped up or sprinkled with chip every few months. Usually patch repairs only last a few weeks to a month before returning back to their origanal condition.

[diggyduo]

wrong post- ignore

[yachtie10]

Sounds like you should stop bleating & ride to the conditions.
Alternatively, you could go back to where you came from.
Why do people come here & then moan about it. You can still get a plane out of here.

what an shitty post
Ive been here all my life and think the roads are shit (and yes we should ride to the conditions)
Can nobody discuss an issue on a forum without some one complaining about it. dont like the post dont read the thread

[diggyduo]

Sounds like you should stop bleating & ride to the conditions.
Alternatively, you could go back to where you came from.
Why do people come here & then moan about it. You can still get a plane out of here.

Interesting attitude to immigrants Side Car Peters. Constructive input is always appreciated thanks. I'm actually a kiwi, have been all my life as far as I know.

I was using texas as a comparison - the climate is hotter in summer, cooler in winter, yet the roads are unaffected. No bleeding, no bits of slimy tar. This tells me it is not beyond the realms of possibilty to construct such roads. And the ecomony in Texas is not going Gang busters, it is not like they have a lot of money to spread around. As I said in my first post, I don't think people should complain unless they are prepared to put their pen where their mouth is, which I intend to do.

People are correct when they say to ride to the conditions, but as Ixion has stated (someone that obviously has more time in the seat than me), the problem is, it is very unpredictable unless you ride the road everyday and know where the nasty bits are.

Most probably there will be costs involved in laying roads with decent material that can withstand our 'scorching' summers. Perhaps it can be offset by reduced ACC and insurance claims? What is the financial cost of a life? Surely there is also an ethical requirement to provide a safe surface for all motorists to use under normal climactic conditions (not talking heat waves). When I started this thread, I hadn't noticed one in a similar vein begun by TOTO. It is well worth reading – it has eye witness accounts and good discussion by experienced people. I seem to recall avid discussion about a slick corner caused by poor constuction near peak rd on SH16 last summer. Can't remember all the details but do remember it had affected several people both in the pocket and in skin and bones as a result.

One option is to happily accept the roads as they are and rely on vigilance, local knowledge, experience etc during summer to avoid incident or accident. I have no issues with this path, it is what I have done for 18 yrs after all. The other is to invest some time into the issue, formulate a reason change, and present it to those that hold the purse strings and talking sticks. Of course, it will likely result in nothing in the short term, but it can only be good to add to the squeaky wheel.

There are no high-horses involved here, it is merely a situation I think is worth improving.

[sidecar bob]

what an shitty post
Ive been here all my life and think the roads are shit (and yes we should ride to the conditions)
Can nobody discuss an issue on a forum without some one complaining about it. dont like the post dont read the thread

Yeah, sweet as. Im sure riding in 40 degrees in Texas is a bloody hoot too.
Complaining dosent fix a thing.

[jafar]

There are a few things different between TX & NZ, in Texas they build roads with a concrete base & then put the seal on top while in NZ they use basecourse & roll it over until it's hard & seal over that.:shit:
The next thing is that if the road in texas is found to be substandard & the cause of accidents someone can be sued, in NZ we have ACC & can't sue the roading company or the council for damages done due to poor road maintenance.:shutup:
In both TX & NZ the bitumen comes from the same place,(Texas City) ours is shipped over in bulk from the manufacturers & is often substandard or rejected material that the manufacturers sell off cheap. We are getting what we are paying for, substandard bitumen on a dirt base with minimal strength, it's cheap & nasty but with our population base & the thousands of kilometers of roading that it is perceived we need it is how it is done.:blink:
If we want better roads built to the standard of Texas roads the cost per metre is a lot higher for the construction but I suspect that the costs over the lifetime of the road will be a little less. A case in point is the road outside Sylvia Park, Mt Wellington. That particular stretch of road was built by the Americans during the 2nd world war to their specifications, it has a CONCRETE BASE & never has there been a pothole in it. Same can't be said for the rest of our roading network.:no:

[Mudfart]

good excuse to stay in the fast lane. I rode to hamiltron today, and found because the heavy vehicles are mostly in slow lanes the fast lanes hold up way better.

[mctshirt]

Why are our roads built so poorly? The very time the weather heats up into perfect biking weather, our roads turn into treacle with gravel on top, mixed in with flat shiney bits that are slippery as hell. It's not like we are in a heat wave. It seems to happen as soon as the temperature heats up above 24 degrees.

It hasn't got hot enough long enough for the roads to melt round here. Count yourself lucky you've got good riding weather.

[Elysium]

The ancient Romans built better roads.

[Bonez]

There's perfectly good roads without any seal on them. Mind you we are spoilt down here cause there's miles of perfectly good sealed backroads as well.

[Fluffy Cat]

The ancient Romans built better roads.

Quite right. Then they went back to where they came from and look what happened!!!!!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[red mermaid]

Sounds like it comes down to cost, and we get what we pay for.

So if we are prepared to pay more through taxes, rates, vehicle registration, goods transported by road, etc, then we will get better roads.

[Elysium]

Sounds like it comes down to cost, and we get what we pay for.

So if we are prepared to pay more through taxes, rates, vehicle registration, goods transported by road, etc, then we will get better roads.

We already pay more, but aint going to the roads that's for sure.

[red mermaid]

Yeah but from what I've been told we have a very difficult country for roading.

Lots of hills, rivers, for the size of the land area requiring a lot of bridges and other engineering.

[James Deuce]

When we had a smaller population and a smaller tax take per capita and roading was carried out by a supposedly inefficient Government Dept., we had quality roads that didn't melt in Summer and we carried out enormous engineering projects.

[Bonez]

Bring back the trains!!!

[swbarnett]

The ancient Romans built better roads.
Maybe for the speeds they could achieve at the time but I'd hazard a guess that they wouldn't stand up to today's traffic for long.

[swbarnett]

Bring back the trains!!!
Exactly! The roads are worse now than before the 150km restriction on trucks was lifted.

[SPman]

Unfortunately, there is a very simple answer to this.

New Zealand has mediocre roads. Large country (268,021 square km) relative to a small population (4,350,377) and we travel a lot (also, we allow large trucks to chew up the roads).

just can't afford to maintain all of our roads to the same standard.

West Australia has mediocre roads. Large country (2,500,000 square km) relative to a small population (2,500,000) and we travel a lot (also, we allow large trucks to chew up the roads). But at least they stay intact in 45 degree heat without any bleed out! - They even survive bushfires. And the road outside our place is just a sealed gravel road, and it's fine - narrow sealed strip, but a good chip surface.
NZ and NZ ers are quite prepared to accept shitty second rate services and then complain about the cost! - it's cheaper to do it right the first time round!

Yeah but from what I've been told we have a very difficult country for roading.
Lots of hills, rivers, for the size of the land area requiring a lot of bridges and other engineering.
Still no excuse for inferior surfaces though.

[shrub]

Transit are aware of this. BRONZ has repeatedly drawn their attention to it. They know it has killed people. Their response: they have commsisioned three studies into it .

Can you give me the data to support that? That is a very powerful argument and if that's true I see no reason why we can't launch a campaign to change the surface in key areas. If you can't, let me know because I have access to damn near all the research there is on road safety and can find it, but no point if you have it to hand.

[shrub]

Transit are aware of this. BRONZ has repeatedly drawn their attention to it. They know it has killed people. Their response: they have commsisioned three studies into it .

Can you give me the data to support that? That is a very powerful argument and if that's true I see no reason why we can't launch a campaign to change the surfaces in key areas at least. If you can't, let me know because I have access to damn near all the research there is on road safety and can find it, but no point if you have it to hand.

[shrub]

When we had a smaller population and a smaller tax take per capita and roading was carried out by a supposedly inefficient Government Dept., we had quality roads that didn't melt in Summer and we carried out enormous engineering projects.

Yes, that's all very well, but did anyone make a profit in those days? Of course not. Get real, good roads/services/infrastructure are a wonderful idea, but what's the point if nobody makes a profit?

[awayatc]

Coastal shipping...........?
Railways..............?

or shal we increase the maximum weightlimit on trucks to destroy the last remaining bit of intact tarseal?

[rebel]

Coastal shipping...........?
Railways..............?

or shal we increase the maximum weightlimit on trucks to destroy the last remaining bit of intact tarseal?

Why blame trucks? They already pay more than their fair share for using the roads and fuck all get put back into it. If they actually built the roads designed for all users we wouldn't have this issue. Are they trying to create jobs by resealing every 6 months? How long do you give the current project just north of Waikanae to turn to shit once it's finished. I will be counting.
You wouldn't design a dirt bike that would crack the frame after the first ride would ya.

After my old CBR250 spun the back wheel in 6th gear at 80kmh uphill on wet melted tar I've taken it a bit easy around the stuff.

[MSTRS]

You wouldn't design a dirt bike that would crack the frame after the first ride would ya.



The Chinese do...
When it's all about cost, and nothing to do with value, poor results are all you will ever get.

[scracha]

Sounds like you should stop bleating & ride to the conditions.
Alternatively, you could go back to where you came from.
Why do people come here & then moan about it. You can still get a plane out of here.

The little racist kiwi syndrome resurfaces. You're happy enough for immigrants to come here, work hard, contribute, bring their pensions and pay taxes for years but god forbid if they make a fair complaint about anything.

Anyone with half a brain knows the roads here are shite and it's mostly because the contractors simply don't get penalised for it.

[Ocean1]

West Australia has mediocre roads. Large country (2,500,000 square km) relative to a small population (2,500,000) and we travel a lot (also, we allow large trucks to chew up the roads). But at least they stay intact in 45 degree heat without any bleed out! - They even survive bushfires. And the road outside our place is just a sealed gravel road, and it's fine - narrow sealed strip, but a good chip surface.
NZ and NZ ers are quite prepared to accept shitty second rate services and then complain about the cost! - it's cheaper to do it right the first time round!

Still no excuse for inferior surfaces though.

Yeah. But dozing a flat track through the sand and sprinkling a bit of lime on top is a tad less expensive than the reasonably serious teraforming required here. Leaves a fair wad of budget for surfacing yes?


Yes, that's all very well, but did anyone make a profit in those days? Of course not. Get real, good roads/services/infrastructure are a wonderful idea, but what's the point if nobody makes a profit?

Insert new sarcasm symbol here?

Seriously, if the costs were assigned according to the benefits the roads would be better and there'd be a deal less bitching.


Why blame trucks? They already pay more than their fair share for using the roads and fuck all get put back into it.

Simple, 'cause trucks is what fucks the roads. In fact trucks are responsible for so much of the damage it might as well be 100%. If trucks pay less than the total cost of road repairs they're getting a fucking good deal.

[Motu]

When we had a smaller population and a smaller tax take per capita and roading was carried out by a supposedly inefficient Government Dept., we had quality roads that didn't melt in Summer and we carried out enormous engineering projects.

Bullshit.In the '50's I remember my father being pissed off with bleeding roads and wipping tar off the car with a turps rag.In the early '70's when I started riding bikes and driving cars they used to spread sand on our local roads to soak up the bleeding tar.Our roads have been melting tar for as long as I can remember....obviously I have a longer memory than you.

[James Deuce]

Probably different roads mate. I do remember spending Summers digging roads back to bedding and then redoing the lot from bedding up, not just stripping the top coat off and laying tar and chipsela, plus suburban streets and motorways and highways all got different grades of bedding gravel and surface. Suburban streets used to bleed more than they do now.

[Mudfart]

I remember playing with tar bubbles as a kid in the late 70's early 80's. It was like boiling water back then.

[Mudfart]

The ancient Romans built better roads.

The ancient romans used slaves from conquered territories for labour, so build costs were way down.
Like I tell everyone, and is a quote on my facebook, "every great civilisation throughout history has its foundations cemented in a strong prolonged use of slavery".
Noone has ever acknowledged this.

[shrub]

Seriously, if the costs were assigned according to the benefits the roads would be better and there'd be a deal less bitchingl.

And 80% of the roading budget would be spent on State Highway 1.

[Ocean1]

Our roads have been melting tar for as long as I can remember....obviously I have a longer memory than you.

You'll remember the "De-slicker MK1" then. Designed and built by the MOW at the now defunct Department for Certain Things in Gracefield.

Was a rack of kerosene burners under a stainless steel hood, dangled off the arse end of a TK Bedford (iirc). Used to rock on out to a stretch of road where the wee stones had all sunk, fire up teh burners and singe all the tar off down to the stones again.

Was a bloody good bit of kit, worked OK until some bastard invent ecology. Must admit the smoke looked like a county-wide thunderhead. Or armageddon.

Oh, and the reason (one of ‘em) the tar melts more now is that back in the dark ages there was a lot of coal tar in the mix. It’s a by-product of coal gasification, we don’t do that any more either.

[Ocean1]

And 80% of the roading budget would be spent on State Highway 1.

Yeah, the steel one.

[Spearfish]

The americans were going to carve a highway of 4 lanes from top to bottom of nz as a parting gesture for the war effort, the Govt of the time said no thanks we can do that our own way in our own time....

I think that was the best thing the govt could do...why have it free when you can wait for a recession in 2009-2010 and spend billions employing companies who have more interest in a creating maintenance intensive surface than a pat on the back for a job well done.

[shrub]

The steel road - I love it. Keeps freight off the roads i want to ride on - now all we need to do is get passengers and tourists on it.

[scracha]

The americans were going to carve a highway of 4 lanes from top to bottom of nz as a parting gesture for the war effort, the Govt of the time said no thanks we can do that our own way in our own time....


I've heard this a few times. Methinks it's urban myth.

[Ocean1]

The steel road - I love it. Keeps freight off the roads i want to ride on - now all we need to do is get passengers and tourists on it.

No problem, building nostalgic 19th century steam trains is smack in the NZR's field of expertise.

[Hitcher]

I've heard this a few times. Methinks it's urban myth.

You are quite correct in that belief.

[James Deuce]

The americans were going to carve a highway of 4 lanes from top to bottom of nz as a parting gesture for the war effort, the Govt of the time said no thanks we can do that our own way in our own time....


The Seabees began a number of projects around Wellington whilst waiting for the island hopping stage of the Pacific advance to start including a tunnel to Wainuiomata. All the projects they wanted to undertake were purely about getting troops and equipment from A to B, there was no altruism in any of the offers or any of the work they did complete.



I've heard this a few times. Methinks it's urban myth.

The Government of the time said "no thanks" to a number if US offers of assistance because the US were pushing to take Commonwealth territory from NZ and Australia post-war. This culminated in the Canberra Pact of 1944 which NZ refused to sign because they rightfully pointed out that whilst they were nominally NZ protectorates (Samoa, Fji, Tokelau, Niue plus a fiew others) they were sovereign territories of the Crown and the negotiations needed to be undertaken with the UK government, especially as NZ was not independent of the Crown and still isn't.

The US demanded that we repay a substantial proportion of the ANZAC Lend-lease agreement immediately and withdrew field support of supplies, logistics and spare parts and ammunition, even though NZ had been charged with tidying up the Solomons after they were bypassed. NZ troops were denied access to US field hospitals and my family had two of my Great-Uncles die of dysentery in the Solomons, less than a mile from a US hospital.

The ultimate effect of the Canberra Pact was to drain NZ's coffers almost completely leaving us with no cash reserves, which left us very vulnerable to shifts in trading practices post-war. NZers weren't allowed to take more than $200 cash overseas with them until the early 80s, and needed special permission to import vehicles from overseas on an individual basis, particularly if it wasn't available locally. Muldoon's Ford Sierra was an exotic car in the early '80s.

NZ's relationship with the US is long and complex and the publicly presented image, historically and presently, is oversimplified. China is a better "friend" to NZ than the US has ever been, despite the way we treated the Chinese up until the 1930s.

[Motu]

Suburban streets used to bleed more than they do now.

Definetly,I used to get tar on my feet as a kid,and slide bikes and cars on the sand they layed on the tar.The highways were concrete....no tar on them.I don't remember SH1 bleeding....all other roads I rode were gravel.

[Lurch]

So in summary.

1. The road surface could be better but realistically the cost/benefit isn't far enough into the benefit part of the ratio for road users who are sensible and legal.
2. People who want something else from NZ roads need to fuck off to some other flat boring country and bitch about the price of petrol or how much tax they pay or some other shit there instead.

[Pussy]

So in summary.

1. The road surface could be better but realistically the cost/benefit isn't far enough into the benefit part of the ratio for road users who are sensible and legal.
2. People who want something else from NZ roads need to fuck off to some other flat boring country and bitch about the price of petrol or how much tax they pay or some other shit there instead.
Yep, that's about it! :niceone:

[pc220]

Simple, 'cause trucks is what fucks the roads. In fact trucks are responsible for so much of the damage it might as well be 100%. If trucks pay less than the total cost of road repairs they're getting a fucking good deal.[/QUOTE]
Are you Nick Smith undercover ?. This sounds very much like his Acc speech.

[swbarnett]

West Australia has mediocre roads. Large country (2,500,000 square km) relative to a small population (2,500,000) and we travel a lot (also, we allow large trucks to chew up the roads).
Yes, but how many km of road in a given square km? I suspect NZ has a lot more than West Australia (or am I assuming too much desert?).

[rebel]

Simple, 'cause trucks is what fucks the roads. In fact trucks are responsible for so much of the damage it might as well be 100%. If trucks pay less than the total cost of road repairs they're getting a fucking good deal.

You still miss the point that we allow 50 tonne trucks on our roads, these fuckwit contactors/engineers know this yet their work turns to shit 6 months to a year after completion, while every one balmes trucks. Bulid the fucking things properly the first time and they'd be no worries.

[Ixion]

The damage to the road increases as the fourth power of weight. So, if a car be about one tonne, a 50 tionne truck, 50 times as heavy will cause 50^4 times as much damage . That is 6250000 times as much damage. Do such trucks pay 6250000 times as much toward the roads. No , they certainly do not . The reason that trucks can compete with rail si becaus etrucks are MASSIVELY subsidised by cars (and bikes). If trucks had to pay tehir fair share there would be bugger all big ones on the roads.

(Incidently , byt the same mathematics, if an average bike is 300 kg laden we should apy 1 / 3^4 roughly as much as a car - about one one hundredth very approximately. So why do we pay MORE? )

[rebel]

The damage to the road increases as the fourth power of weight. So, if a car be about one tonne, a 50 tionne truck, 50 times as heavy will cause 50^4 times as much damage . That is 6250000 times as much damage. Do such trucks pay 6250000 times as much toward the roads. No , they certainly do not . The reason that trucks can compete with rail si becaus etrucks are MASSIVELY subsidised by cars (and bikes). If trucks had to pay tehir fair share there would be bugger all big ones on the roads.

(Incidently , byt the same mathematics, if an average bike is 300 kg laden we should apy 1 / 3^4 roughly as much as a car - about one one hundredth very approximately. So why do we pay MORE? )

You don't take into account that the trucks weight, in most cases is distributed over 8 axles, up to 24 wheels/tyres, not four like a car/4wd.

[Skyryder]

Some of the best roads are over in the W Coast of the Mainland. Hard on tyres but that stretch from Grey up the Westport solid as.


skyryder

[Skyryder]

Some of the best roads are over in the W Coast of the Mainland. Hard on tyres but that stretch from Grey up the Westport solid as.


skyryder

[Pussy]

Some of the best roads are over in the W Coast of the Mainland. Hard on tyres but that stretch from Grey up the Westport solid as.


skyryder


Some of the best roads are over in the W Coast of the Mainland. Hard on tyres but that stretch from Grey up the Westport solid as.


skyryder
Heard you the first time.......

[sidecar bob]

The little racist kiwi syndrome resurfaces. You're happy enough for immigrants to come here, work hard, contribute, bring their pensions and pay taxes for years but god forbid if they make a fair complaint about anything.

Anyone with half a brain knows the roads here are shite and it's mostly because the contractors simply don't get penalised for it.

No, its not racist. Im sure all immagrants are here because they were getting a shit deal back home, maybe not in roading, but as in the case of South Africans, being murdered en masse in their own homes.
Whats your reason Scracha?
Realise how good you have it & chill out about a few things.
Incedentaly, i am the son of a Dutch immagrant & first generation of the family to be born in NZ.
I have no desire to go & visit the shit hole called Holland, i know how good i have it here from having contact with my relatives.

[geoffm]

You don't take into account that the trucks weight, in most cases is distributed over 8 axles, up to 24 wheels/tyres, not four like a car/4wd.

The rating for a NZ Fire Service appliance is 25T with an 8T axle load. Assmuming this is typical of trucks on the road (I know many are higher), then the truck is 8^4 more than the car, where a car ha saroudn 1T axle load.
Don't see the trucks paying 4100 times that of a car?
Geoff

[Ixion]

Moreover, multiple axles are very far from compensating for extra weight. In many cases the damage is not bump impact (from a singlke wheel), but rather depression of an entire section of seal, from the great distributed weight on it. That is, the weight of the truck causes the road surface to flex. That is why we see corrogations and troughs in roads that trucks use.

[red mermaid]

If we are going to talk about trucks weights, lets get the weights allowed accurate.

The maximum weight for a truck and trailer (7 or 8 axles) is 44 tonne, and the same for a B-train (7-9 axles).

There is limited trials being held for gross weights up to 50 tonne but these are on specified routes and tightly controlled as to the vehicles to be used, the company and drivers, the payload, and the route they can use.

As a truck axle moves down the road it sets up a wave action in front of the axle, and NZ having flexible pavements, the road is designed to do this.

Transport operators pay considerally for the use of the roads through Road User Charges, and according to their lobby group the Road Transport Forum, pay more than their fair share.

Of course there is a specialist group within the NZ police who do the job of making sure that transport operators comply with the huge number of rules controlling them but they are often hamstrung in their efforts by cost, which sort of brings us full circle back to getting the quality of road we can afford, and maintaining that quality.

[MSTRS]

...their work turns to shit 6 months to a year after completion...

Pffft!! There's major arterial urban roads in Napier that'd be lucky to retain a resealing for more than 6 HOURS.

[p.dath]

Transport operators pay considerally for the use of the roads through Road User Charges, and according to their lobby group the Road Transport Forum, pay more than their fair share.

You can't really trust what a lobby group say ...

[MSTRS]

You can't really trust what a lobby group say ...

...except when it's motorcyclists doing the lobbying!

[diggyduo]

Perhaps not in NZ ... I've just been reading up on the subject. It's actually quite a complex science, and many countries have done many experiments. One of the tough issues is the formula needs to vary quite a bit from country to country because the conditions are so different.
So reading up on your links to to the NZTA standards in the TOTO thread ()http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/chipsealing-hot-mix-asphalt/index.html (http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/chipsealing-hot-mix-asphalt/index.html), it looks like Transit New Zealand only requires Quality Assurance for State Highways, not for any other road which is not classified as a State Highway. Is this how you read it?

[SPman]

Yes, but how many km of road in a given square km? I suspect NZ has a lot more than West Australia (or am I assuming too much desert?). Quite true. Away from the population cores and main roads, most roads are dirt (cue Motu...) There are only 2.3 people /m2

Yeah. But dozing a flat track through the sand and sprinkling a bit of lime on top is a tad less expensive than the reasonably serious teraforming required here. Leaves a fair wad of budget for surfacing yes?
Whilst hotmix is making small inroads on regional roads, most roads are just sprayed tar/granite chip seal. OK, the road bases are generally a lot stronger with a lot less work, but this is countered by being able to seal longer stretches for the savings involved - but the actual sealing costs are comparable with NZ costs. So, why do they stand up, so much better? There is a very small amount of "slickage", but, that's generally from prolonged traffic pushing the chip slowly into the tar over a period of months, if not years. I have yet to see melted tar on the roads, in temps of up to 45C! In NZ I'd see it often, from 23-24 C and up! Could it be that the contractors here actually use the materials they are supposed to use, and if it fails, they have to tear it up and reseal, in the proper materials, at their own expense? and the DMR, for all their idiocy, actually check the work?

[Ocean1]

the actual sealing costs are comparable with NZ costs. So, why do they stand up, so much better? .... Could it be that the contractors here actually use the materials they are supposed to use, and if it fails, they have to tear it up and reseal, in the proper materials, at their own expense? and the DMR, for all their idiocy, actually check the work?

It's quite likely that the bitumen spec's are different. Materials available to contractors here are just what the oil companies stock. That used to be just 2 grades, not sure now.

Whatever the discrepency in materials the results are certainly different, I've spent a fair bit of time on WA roads and by and large the good roads are better and the rural ones are, as you say often completely unseald. It's a better aproach, there's less of a problem with ... goodroadgoodroadgoodroadgoodroadgoodroadgoodroadSH ITLOOKATTHATFUCKING GREAT HOLE...

The road I live on was chipsealed two years ago. It's a fucking abomination.

[p.dath]

So reading up on your links to to the NZTA standards in the TOTO thread ()http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/chipsealing-hot-mix-asphalt/index.html (http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/chipsealing-hot-mix-asphalt/index.html), it looks like Transit New Zealand only requires Quality Assurance for State Highways, not for any other road which is not classified as a State Highway. Is this how you read it?

Correct. Next you would need to read the regulations in every city to find out weather they implement the NZTA standard, or some lesser standard. My expectation is that within a regions limits the standard of roading should be similar, by may vary from city to city.

With Auckland consisting of 5 cities, it's concievable there could be five different roading standards ...

[diggyduo]

So in summary.

1. The road surface could be better but realistically the cost/benefit isn't far enough into the benefit part of the ratio for road users who are sensible and legal.
2. People who want something else from NZ roads need to fuck off to some other flat boring country and bitch about the price of petrol or how much tax they pay or some other shit there instead.

This is an open forum so it is great to get all input. I might add a number 3 to your post

3. Buy a car and reduce the risk further! (Unfortunately i think many people have chosen this option.)


I guess since you have trawled through 60 odd posts (which at 30sec per post would be half an hour - enough to change some naps, prepare dinner, walk the dog etc) before you posted that you put some thought into your reply.

So what is your benefit vs cost ledger? No digs meant here, I am genuinely interested in your thoughts.

I can get the ball rolling:

Costs:
Higher short term cost in rejigging the seal mix, perhaps even needing to tailor it for certain regions in the country
Training burden for the companies in instructing the requirements for the new mixes, (and not to add buckets of kerosene in when the boss aint looking)
Unemployment may increase due to the reduction in ongoing maintenance.
Notes:
Bit of a bugger about the increase in short term cost - obviously government would prefer a greater cost spread over a longer time as a sudden increase is a greater target for the opposition to highlight

Benefits:
Lower ACC- or perhaps less of an ACC increase
Lower insurance premiums for those with full insurance, a service that is currently ridiculously high - or at least less of a premium increase.
Some people might make next Christmas that otherwise might not . These people would be local area noobs as unpredictable road conditions are not likely to catch out the experienced locals that know the road well.
Perhaps long-term financial gain in the reduction in road maintenance (not well versed here).
Notes:
As an aside, some of the prime suspects during summer also create the biggest problems during rain - namely the dreaded shiney patches of tar. I have left this out of the discussion cos most people ride super conservative in the wet anyway - I would hazard a guess that most motorcyclist second guess most roads at the first sign of rain which I think is the best approach. But I don't think the same should be true for summer. It would be more of a secondary benefit than a prime motivator.

As for legal speeds, the closest I have come to a cropper was in a 45 km hr corner, with a wife and pack on the back, following a camper-van that was in turn being held up by a SUV/Boat combo on the Coro-Thames road, under the shade of tress, with a line of cars behind me that would happily of tested AGV's safety claims given half a chance. After doubling back to see what caused the prob, it was a long blob of sludgy seal in the RH tire track. To be honest, at the time, I was more annoyed about not seeing it than the fact it was there. In hindsight I think it is worth investigating whether this sort of situation might be over come and we can reduce our risks down to cars and ourselves rather than sweaty roads wilting under a NZ summer.

As for the fear of increased cost, this is not really our problem. If improvements were to come, I am sure the Government would make the implications clear, and they would only be actioned the bean counters were crystal clear the majority of their voting base (who keep them in power after all). supported the impetus

All of this crap road stuff won't stop me from riding, I just wonder if the situation might be improved somewhat. You never know. Some day women might get to Vote and Milk might not be delivered to our abodes.

[diggyduo]

..........