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warewolf
20th January 2010, 12:12
I went through a very worthwhile exercise the other day, to dial-in the suspension on my 640A. I can thoroughly recommend this one as an eye-opener, if nothing else. I used the process from the Orange Crush (http://www.advrider.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=34) > KTM 950 Halls of Wisdom (http://www.ktm950.info/) > Dirtbike Suspension Setup: (http://www.ktm950.info/how/suspension/dirtbike/bruce_dirtbike_suspension_setup.html)

To summarise the method:

You need to set the sag first (of course) and have the correct springs. I've got the sag set as best I can with the springs likely one step out fr & rr (soft front, hard rear). Then set the compression and rebound clickers to standard.

Ride a 10-minute test loop with a variety of conditions. For me, I used the first bit of the Maungatapu: starting at the junction just the Nelson side of the ford below the caretaker's cottage, up & over the hill turning right into the dam headwaters, and return. The section includes that slippery bouldery tricky descent/climb that is always shadowed, lots of ruts with big square-edged bumps, tight corners, faster bits (not highway fast though), small jumps, rocks, potholes, loose gravel, hardpack... lotsa stuff.

Then you repeat the loop with way too much rebound (6 clicks from standard), then way too little, then way too much compression, then way too little. This gives you a feel for how the bike behaves when it is set incorrectly. Finally, you go 2 clicks at a time towards the better-handling setting until it gets worse, then come back 1 click at a time until it is as good as you can get. My bike's forks have 34 clicks of compression adjustment, and 24 of rebound, fairly typical for a dirt bike.

Results?

Not finished yet; I only had time to do basic tuning on the front, but WOW!!! :gob: The really interesting thing? Mucking up the front ruined the performance of the rear! The rear settings were the same the whole time, but handled way, WAY different depending on how the front was set. And 6 clicks was far enough from std to be horribly, horribly wrong.

Key points:

Too much rebound was instantly noticeable, and the most evil of all four wrong settings. The front packed down badly almost from the get-go (the first part of my test track was a "launch" over a contour bank followed by downhill braking to walking pace through a ford), felt like 30-50% of the suspension travel had been removed. Wheelies were much more difficult, bump-steer became apparent, it was tending to headshake, it felt like I was likely to endo over the front even on big bumps on the flat, and down the snotty section the front broke traction constantly and the rear was totally unmanageable: hopping, skipping, kicking & sliding wildly all over the place. Rear traction at all times (go, whoa, and tracking in the rough) was compromised.

Too little rebound was also bad, but better than too much. The front was pogoing a lot, felt very loose (loose = lots of fast movement), not steering as well as std since it was lifting off the ground on rebound, wheelies were easier than as std. So I backed it off 2 clicks from std as a crude adjustment which felt a bit better overall; maybe +/- 1 from there will be spot on.

Too much compression was very harsh. Wheelies were easier, but the front was skittish and the ride unpleasant.

Too little compression felt really loose, it made the rebound seem too fast/loose as well. But again, this was better than too much. I tried 2 clicks faster from std, but didn't feel it was better overall than std, so left it on std.

Finally

Can't wait to do the rear shock, as I was running it on std settings which are a long way from where I normally have it. Std is rebound 7 of 11, compression 6 of 7. Normally it's at R1-2 & C1-3 !! The latter to stop bottoming on jumps. Due to the limited adjustment positions on the shock, I would be inclined not to adjust by as much as 6 clicks, except that I normally run it 6 clicks from std so I will test it that far out.

Another interesting thing was that the std settings felt pretty good on the ride out through town and flat/fast gravel roads. On the way back, with the change merely -2 clicks of front rebound, the gravel felt marginally better, but on the streets it felt noticeably worse, quite choppy due to the faster rebound. Which just goes to show that in the adventure arena there is no one ideal setting :crybaby:, and furthermore, this exercise should be repeated for significantly different conditions. :shutup:

Tyres were Pirelli Scorpion MX eXtra 80/100-21 @ 20psi, and Michelin Cross AC10 110/100-18 @ 25 psi.

Will report back here with rear adjustments next.

NordieBoy
22nd January 2010, 17:55
You need to have a squiz at Neduro's bookie I printed out...

Fluffy Cat
22nd January 2010, 20:15
You run the AC10 at 25psi ?. Isn't that on the high side, still learning about these things....enlighten me.
I'am running 25f and 18psi r. The rear is the same as yours.

pampa
23rd January 2010, 22:08
INteresting, thansk for sharing ...
I've been playing a little bit with G650X but the adjustment on the front is ... poor, nevertheless worth trying

I need to setup my suspension on the other bike though ... as soon as I can get some time to actually ride it

Cheers,
Pampa

cooneyr
24th January 2010, 08:59
Interesting write up WW. I really must play with the settings more on the 950. Interesting what you say about the front affecting the rear cause I'm not really sure what to make of the front yet but the rear is still way to twitchy, esp under brakes.


You need to have a squiz at Neduro's bookie I printed out...

Could I "borrow" that book for a while?

Cheers R

warewolf
24th January 2010, 13:09
You need to have a squiz at Neduro's bookie I printed out...Yes

The penis you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your penis to at least 10 inches.

warewolf
24th January 2010, 13:15
You run the AC10 at 25psi ?. Isn't that on the high side, still learning about these things....enlighten me.


Yes and no. 25psi is high for a dirt bike, low for a road bike. Spec pressure for the bike is 29psi & max for the tyre is 33psi. Yes I would like to run it lower, but a) need to fit a rimlock first, and b) trying to set the bike up for general use, not pure off-road.

warewolf
24th January 2010, 13:24
Interesting what you say about the front affecting the rear cause I'm not really sure what to make of the front yet but the rear is still way to twitchy, esp under brakes.


Twitchy under brakes sounds like it is too stiff & slow, and maybe not enough weight on it (through transfer). Bear in mind that an over-preloaded too-soft spring will be harsh in the initial part of the travel, ie near top-out which is where the rear is at under brakes. Definitely go do this exercise, I'd be very interested in where you get to.

pampa
28th January 2010, 15:03
What do you make of front deflecting, went yesterday on a ride to red rocks and noticed that a lot.

I'm using Michelin T63 at about 20 psi and tire has well over 14000k and Michelin T63 rear at 28psi with around 1000K fairly new. I've played with rebound going -6 clicks of default (softer)

What direction do you reckon I should go? (less rebound maybe)

Cheers,
Pampa

Waihou Thumper
28th January 2010, 16:11
Yes and no. 25psi is high for a dirt bike, low for a road bike. Spec pressure for the bike is 29psi & max for the tyre is 33psi. Yes I would like to run it lower, but a) need to fit a rimlock first, and b) trying to set the bike up for general use, not pure off-road.

That's interesting, when I put the Heidenaus on the DR we put 30 psi in. I wanted something more for the road and the ride down there. When I hit the metal roads, the bike was dancing all over the place on those southern marbles but I was worried about punctures so just sat back more and went faster...:) Maybe I should have run the tyres much lower but for the sacrifice of lower pressures aren't you opening up a can of worms for other things? I dunno....
I have always just ridden if it is round and hard, that is the main thing.....Except in sand and mud, yes I know to increase the footprint there...:)

warewolf
28th January 2010, 20:49
What direction do you reckon I should go? (less rebound maybe)

-6 in my experiment totally stuffed up the handling.

Sounds to me like you need to put the rebound back to default, and take a click or too off compression.

warewolf
28th January 2010, 21:03
for the sacrifice of lower pressures aren't you opening up a can of worms for other things? I dunno....

There's low, then there's L O W. From my point of view, running higher-than spec pressures 'cos you're doing a road trip is opening up a can of worms. :laugh: Running knobbies at high pressure seems to rip the knobs off, probably because the carcass won't flex.

Just like suspension adjustments, tyre pressures make a difference and you need to experiment to find out what works.

Fluffy Cat
28th January 2010, 21:11
Ok so what's a high pressure for a knobbly ?.

Woodman
28th January 2010, 21:45
Ok so what's a high pressure for a knobbly ?.

Anything over 25psi IMHO.

NordieBoy
28th January 2010, 22:23
Anything over 25psi IMHO.

For a "proper" knobbly like the K760 or race rubber rather than a "poseur knobbly" like the E09/TKC80/MT21 which can be run closer to 30 no probs (until you get offroad)...

Underground
29th January 2010, 19:03
Changes to the front definately affect the rear,
After fitting intiminators to the Africa Twin alot of problems that I thought were rear problems diminished (although a new shock would be nice )
One interesting improvement was that even two up the rear doesnt crash down into those big hard edged potholes when I hit them at speed nearly as much as it did before :scratch:

warewolf
2nd February 2010, 22:09
Ok so what's a high pressure for a knobbly ?.Depends on the definition of knobbly, the bike and the terrain :laugh:

MX/Enduro tyres, 20psi is pretty high; they are designed to work at more like 14psi but max permissible is low-30s. Spec for my EXC is 14psi fr/rr for off-road, and 22/29psi fr/rr on-road (same tyres, DOT enduros).

Adventure tyres can handle quite a bit more, since it is needed for higher speeds & loads.