Effing newspapers!

[nudemetalz]

So what's with the new idea of posting our SAS troop's faces now in the newspapers?
They want to kill of their careers or something?
Maybe just kill them off full-stop !!!

Pricks !!

[wbks]

So what's with the new idea of posting our SAS troop's faces now in the newspapers?
They want to kill of their careers or something?
Maybe just kill them off full-stop !!!

Pricks !!The yanks news papers and politicians would have told everyone all they wanted to know, anyway...

[mashman]

Have they broken any NZ Official Secrets Act?

[Swoop]

I was surprised reading two of Ed Macy's books covering Afganistan AH-64 ops. All photo's had the occupants faces blacked out.

The squadron would be quite proud to be photographed, since they are such devillishly handsome chaps!

[Hoon]

It's Willie Apiata. Even though he's been outed it's still extremely bad form by the Herald. Wouldn't surprise me if he gets sent home now.

http://hellameke.com/images/arx1264016003z.jpg

[Winston001]

I'm appalled. Didn't know these pics existed. The SAS is elite and covert. Membership and deployment are never publicly released. I read a book a while ago by a British ex-SAS guy who'd served in Northern Ireland. He's now dead. Found hanging in his garage......which suggests the IRA caught up with him.

These guys don't play games. Keeping their identity secret is for the protection of them and their families.

[munster]

What really surprises anyone when it comes to the press.

Motorbikes are bad, ACC is broke, criminals just had bad childhoods etc

Like any other business, they're out for the dollar, nothing more. Real honest truth in the press disapeared during WWII and has yet to return.

For honest opinion, go see a stand up comic. You'll learn more about the true social situation than reading 6 months of newspapers.

(no I'm not a stand up comic)

[Ronin]

For honest opinion, go see a stand up comic. You'll learn more about the true social situation than reading 6 months of newspapers.

(no I'm not a stand up comic)

Which courtroom? I'll be there.

[peasea]

Ahh, the NZ Herald does it again. They are a law unto themselves and if I had my way I'd replace our boys with Wilson and Horton in a nanosecond. See how they like it.

[quickbuck]

Appalling...... WTF is the Harold thinking!
Heads should roll over this. Seriously!

[eelracing]

Can't see a problem myself as the SAS gave away his anonomity when publicising his awarded medal for bravery (thoroughly deserved i might add).

More insidious is the fact that the christian bible quotes engraved on the rifle sights has been highlighted...way to get the extreme muslim factions blood boiling me thinks.

[sil3nt]

Love the photo. Can only dream of being the best of the best!

[BiK3RChiK]

I've met Willie Apiata on several occasions, and he is the quietest, most unassuming gentleman you could expect to meet. But then, I guess you'd have to know how to keep your mouth shut with a job like his. My guess is he's glad to be back in action... I thought he looked a bit bored when I saw him passing the time away last winter.

[Hitcher]

1. The NZ Herald and other kiwi media didn't take the photograph.

2. Presumably other international media are running it -- it's a good photo after all.

3. It's no secret that the NZ SAS is deployed in Afganistan.

4. Presumably they have NZ flags emblazoned on their fatigues, so not much detective work would be required to join the dots.

5. Only one trooper is recognisable from this photo. I guess a VC makes him too cool to wear a helmet and shades?

6. Why aren't they packing Steyrs, that's what I want to know.

[2_SL0]

6. Why aren't they packing Steyrs, that's what I want to know.

Hmmmm, that very question demonstrates a mimimal understanding of the SAS.

[Hitcher]

Hmmmm, that very question demonstrates a mimimal understanding of the SAS.

If I knew the answer I would have asked the question. Instead of being a smartarse, how about shedding some light on the matter for us ignorami?

[wbks]

1. The NZ Herald and other kiwi media didn't take the photograph.

2. Presumably other international media are running it -- it's a good photo after all.

3. It's no secret that the NZ SAS is deployed in Afganistan.

4. Presumably they have NZ flags emblazoned on their fatigues, so not much detective work would be required to join the dots.

5. Only one trooper is recognisable from this photo. I guess a VC makes him too cool to wear a helmet and shades?

6. Why aren't they packing Steyrs, that's what I want to know.


If I knew the answer I would have asked the question. Instead of being a smartarse, how about shedding some light on the matter for us ignorami?Not being a smartass, but I'm pretty sure it's because (and I've been told this by several army dudes) the SAS is under direction of UKSF, so run pretty much the same equipment. Either that or they have a larger budget because of their smaller numbers but higher importance. And in case you were wondering, they probably aren't the regular Colt M4's you see around, more likely Diemaco C8's ,which the UK special forces also use. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if they either had no identification on their uniforms, or another flag i.e Australian or US. I mean, they are there "covertly" so it would be pretty stupid to brand them with a flag, and I was told by the same people as above that they are un branded. As for the "too cool for a helmet and shades" thing, he's obviously too badass for that, I'd imagine the sand keeps its distance from his eyes and the UV rays wouldn't even think about it! Not like I've ever been to the middle east but a lot of them seem to ditch their helmets/sunnies. Maybe too hot and the glasses are a distraction when you're trying to put someone in your sights?

[Fatjim]

Special forces are like Aprilia riders. Special.

[Usarka]

Actually if you look closely at the pic he isn't SAS. The label on his chest reads SSA (or S5A) and his mate is SSB.

You all got sucked in big time.

[EJK]

They have guns and tools but don't they have any razor blades and shaving foam? Scissors? Clippers?

[LBD]

They have guns and tools but don't they have any razor blades and shaving foam? Scissors? Clippers?

Normally clean shaven, whiskers are cammo. So if pics are published, they can have a shave when they get home and be unrecogniseable....

And its winter up this part of the world and gets freakin cold...whiskers keep the chin warm.....

And out of uniform they blend in better....

[Conquiztador]

I am sure the girls want less uniform...

[2_SL0]

Short answer, they dont use the Steyr because its not that great. (It was purchased/chosen due to a political decsion rather than a military decision)
Logistically they will be using similar to the US as that is who I believe they will be serving with and therfore it makes more sense for supply requirments.

A large amount of the SAS equipment is based upon the individual's preference, it has been that way for a long time. You are just as likely to see them using AK's out in the field.

Their appearance is often related to the type of task they are involved in, obviously Willie’s appearance does mask who he is quite well, but also gives him the appearance of being a local. As you may well find at times the roll will require him to be dressed and to give the appearance of just another Afgan.

The other individual is lucky as it appears he is on communications hence the helmet.

[Okey Dokey]

Our SAS have a difficult job to do without the added stress from an inept media. I feel sorry for the soldier exposed in this way. It has been a convention for years that the SAS forces are not exposed in the media. Mistakes happen, but this is a pretty big one.

[Swoop]

6. Why aren't they packing Steyrs, that's what I want to know.
Quite true Hitch. A bloody cheese eating surrender monkey took the photograph, and knowing the morals of the froggies he would have been straight around to whoever would pay the highest for the shot.

The Steyr... Quite simply, they are crap. Noisy (due to hollow plastic construction), limited in the sights that can be fitted on top (standard scope is inappropriate for urban work), and other "issues". When introduced into NZ they had to do mandatory inspections of over eighty areas of each rifle.
A similar start to operational life as the British SA-80 rifle... which is also still crap.

[2_SL0]

Quite true Hitch. A bloody cheese eating surrender monkey took the photograph, and knowing the morals of the froggies he would have been straight around to whoever would pay the highest for the shot.

The Steyr... Quite simply, they are crap. Noisy (due to hollow plastic construction), limited in the sights that can be fitted on top (standard scope is inappropriate for urban work), and other "issues". When introduced into NZ they had to do mandatory inspections of over eighty areas of each rifle.
A similar start to operational life as the British SA-80 rifle... which is also still crap.

Mate I was being polite, but I completely agree.

Just to expand on this:

The first batch of steyr were from Austria, they were perfectly fine. However the following two batches came in from Australia and the quality was lower, these had the problems.

Steyrs, like other Bullpups have the firing mechanism closer to the ear therefore will give the appearance of being louder from a firing point of view.

[Oscar]

Er - the Army has a photo of him on its website.
Are we assuming that terrorists read the Herald but don't surf the web?

http://www.army.mil.nz/nr/rdonlyres/ed511039-c060-4472-8739-ec92b8174e6c/0/ak07030995tn.jpg

[firefighter]

Short answer, they dont use the Steyr because its not that great. (It was purchased/chosen due to a political decsion rather than a military decision)


The Steyr... Quite simply, they are crap. .

Actually, it's the 7th best assault rifle in the world, according to a top 10 list on Discovery.

[eelracing]

Actually, it's the 7th best assault rifle in the world, according to a top 10 list on Discovery.

Is that the same channel that did the top ten Motorcycles??? if so I would'nt give it much credence

The Steyr is a great weapon if you like to mince around with pop guns.

[firefighter]

Is that the same channel that did the top ten Motorcycles??? if so I would'nt give it much credence

The Steyr is a great weapon if you like to mince around with pop guns.

Actually it was a pretty good one, I think it was the show with the ex Navy Seal.

The Vietnam Vets said the same thing about the "plastic piece of shit" M16's they were issued. I'm pretty sure that "pop gun" would happily put you down.

[2_SL0]

When you take into account how many assault rifles would meet the criteria for military application, 10 rifles is most likely a reasonable number to draw from. So within that 10 I would be interested in the 6 that are obviously infront of the Steyr.
I said its not that great, in certain applications it is good, but not all. Certainly the Austrian manufactured rifles are of good quality. I would also point out the existing Steyr we have is diffrrent to the current Steyr available.

[eelracing]

Actually it was a pretty good one, I think it was the show with the ex Navy Seal.

The Vietnam Vets said the same thing about the "plastic piece of shit" M16's they were issued. I'm pretty sure that "pop gun" would happily put you down.

I'm sure it would mate,but i have used the M16 and the Steyr and the SLR and would take the SLR any day over the other two.

As an aside the NZ army went to the 5.56mm round (M16 and Steyr)because it was percieved to be more humane.The thinking behind it was that it would more often than not injure a man and would require two of his buddies to take him out of the firefight.

Whereas an SLR 7.62mm round would just take you out period.

[nudemetalz]

plus the 5.56mm round is the standardised round of Nato countries.
We just purchase the crappiest of the ammunition because of budgets constraints.

I remember firing the Steyr when I was in the Army.
Bang, bang, jam,...clear,...bang, bang, jam,..clear...bang, bang etc...great if you're in a firefight in Afghanistan.......

[firefighter]

I'm sure it would mate,but i have used the M16 and the Steyr and the SLR and would take the SLR any day over the other two.

Hahaha, or perhaps an old ball shot rifle would suit?! hahahahaha. That's typical old dinosaur talk. The SLR would be shit in a modern firefight.


I remember firing the Steyr when I was in the Army.
Bang, bang, jam,...clear,...bang, bang, jam,..clear...bang, bang etc...great if you're in a firefight in Afghanistan.......

Clean the thing properly then. I only ever had a couple of jams with the steyr, and it was more than suffiecient on OP Crib.

[wbks]

I'm sure it would mate,but i have used the M16 and the Steyr and the SLR and would take the SLR any day over the other two.

As an aside the NZ army went to the 5.56mm round (M16 and Steyr)because it was percieved to be more humane.The thinking behind it was that it would more often than not injure a man and would require two of his buddies to take him out of the firefight.

Whereas an SLR 7.62mm round would just take you out period.Thats the second time I've heard that argument and it still sounds like BS. I would have thought it would be for the increased accuracy and lower drop-rate, but what ever...

[wbks]

Clean the thing properly then. I only ever had a couple of jams with the steyr, and it was more than suffiecient on OP Crib.Seeing as you sound like you've been in the army, can I ask you something? Are the only times you carry your weapon on the range and on ops, or can to take it (assumingly unloaded) around with you outside of there for field stripping practice/cleaning? Probably just a movie thing, where they try to disassemble and reassemble in 3 seconds flat etc, but I've been wondering...

[Elysium]

When I saw the photos I thought "You fucking wankers" The idiots in the media don't realise the enemy also has access to the media and will now know what he looks like and wonder who the other guy is.

[Dave Lobster]

Thats the second time I've heard that argument and it still sounds like BS. I would have thought it would be for the increased accuracy and lower drop-rate, but what ever...

Clearly you've done far more thinking than those that make the policies. Have you thought of offering your services as a consultant?

[wbks]

Clearly you've done far more thinking than those that make the policies. Have you thought of offering your services as a consultant?

Hey, I'm just saying I can't imagine NATO standardising a round "because it takes two of his buddies to take him out of the battle". I would think, however, that they've gone the same way as Russia and made a smaller, more accurate round with less recoil for a higher hit rate. Hitting someone with a smaller round has got to be better than missing them with a big one

[firefighter]

Seeing as you sound like you've been in the army, can I ask you something? Are the only times you carry your weapon on the range and on ops, or can to take it (assumingly unloaded) around with you outside of there for field stripping practice/cleaning? Probably just a movie thing, where they try to disassemble and reassemble in 3 seconds flat etc, but I've been wondering...

Not the Army. Navy/Airforce. No you do'nt carry it around any other time. If you wanted to go to the armoury and have a practise you could arrange it I guess, though I never heard of anyone being that hardcore! And no, you don't have to strip it and reassemble in 3 secs! lol. It's more about cleaning it properly than doing it really fast.

[Dave Lobster]

Not the Army. Navy/Airforce. No you do'nt carry it around any other time. If you wanted to go to the armoury and have a practise you could arrange it I guess, though I never heard of anyone being that hardcore! And no, you don't have to strip it and reassemble in 3 secs! lol. It's more about cleaning it properly than doing it really fast.

Depends what you're doing. I used to be at the ranges three or four times a week (sometimes) when not out on an Op.

[Dave Lobster]

Hey, I'm just saying I can't imagine NATO standardising a round "because it takes two of his buddies to take him out of the battle".

That's EXACTLY why they did it. One man down, three out the fight.

[nudemetalz]

Clean the thing properly then. I only ever had a couple of jams with the steyr, and it was more than suffiecient on OP Crib.

errr....make sure I clean it properly? Oh yes I did do that....and there's also only so many times you can turn the gas plug around.
Plus stripping and cleaning my rifle while under fire would be the last thing on my mind !!

We had to practice stripping and reasembling the Steyr, while blindfolded, can make things interesting, especially when you drop pieces into the grass.

So, thanks for your advice, Firefighter..... ;)

[eelracing]

Not the Army. Navy/Airforce. though I never heard of anyone being that hardcore!


Say's it all really hahahahahahahah

[DougieNZ]

Hmmmm

I guess the whole point here is that there has always been an unwritten rule that SAS members are not identified in photographs by the news media. I haven't been in the SAS, but from what I understand they do a lot of "clandestine" work and a lot of recon work where they need to be able to blend in to the community they are operating in. It's not all about wearing the black gear and kicking down doors.

You could argue that such a recognisable figure should not have been sent in to Afganistan in the first place. I believe that the medal should have been kept on hold or issued under abbsolute secrecy - but the army top brass obviously decided differently. It could have been announced after Apiata left the SAS. The other question is - should the fact that a guy has been awarded a VC mean that his career should end? Does it give the media the right to publish photos on him when on SAS ops? I believe the answer is NO!

The photograph would not have been published if media did not buy them. They should not have done it. The publication of these photos give the Taliban direct intelligence that a VC holder is in their midst - what a great target! it effectively paints a target on his back and the back of every SAS guy there. YES he is well publicised in NZ. YES he is well known to be in the SAS. But what the publication of these photos did mwas give any enemy recent intelligence ion his whereabouts. Remember it is NOT his fault he won a VC and it shouldn't be used to paint a target on his back.

As for the weapons thing - the SAS use a variety of weapons for different purposes. They select them by their own experiecnce and the experience of special forces worldwide. these guys really are the elite, and demand and deserve the best of equipment. For example the MP5 is generally their weapn of choice for the CQB/building entry stuff - but that may have changed now.

NZ media should be ashamed of themselves!

[nudemetalz]

Good post, Dougie :)

[2_SL0]

Completely agree with Dougie.

[Ronin]

Yup, I'm with Dougie.

Also

Chuck Noris VS Apiata?

Hmmmm

[Swoop]

The first batch of steyr were from Austria, they were perfectly fine. Steyrs, like other Bullpups have the firing mechanism closer to the ear therefore will give the appearance of being louder from a firing point of view.
I was told that the first batch from Austria had plastic issues. The harsh UV we have here, was breaking down the plastic in the stocks.
"Louder". I was referring to the amount of noise the stock makes when patrolling. Get a twig scraping along the stock and it is quite loud.

The SLR would be shit in a modern firefight.
Well, you had better inform the squadron about that then...

[Hans]

Just thought I'd add my 0.2 worth.
The beard helps blend in with the locals (who are not Arabs, as someone here has said), it also gives them a measure of respect from the locals, as you simply cannot have a REAL MAN without a beard in Afghanistan.
The AUG is a decent enough weapon when being used in the the setting it was designed for, i.e. a NATO-USSR war in Europe. It is completely fucking useless in an urban setting, as it is too fucking long, too fucking unwieldy, can't be silenced without seriously affecting reliability etc... I remember one very unhappy diplomatic protection squad of a European country that shall remain nameless. They were simply issued with AUGs with no prior consultation. Just watching the poor cunts try to get in a car with the things was hilarious.

And yes, getting your photos published like this is potentially career ending for any member of a military special forces unit.
The Herald are piss weak cunts for doing this.

[Dave Lobster]

.......as you simply cannot have a REAL MAN without a beard in Afghanistan.


It's not just Afganistan. That's the law everywhere ;)

[Ixion]

6. Why aren't they packing Steyrs, that's what I want to know.

What, Steyr-Puch. Like, these. Several mate shad them, good little scrotahs. Too right, why aren't the SAS issued with scrotahs. John Key ahs a lot to answer for.

[James Deuce]

It would be unfair for the NZ Army to continue to consider Corporal Apiata an active asset any longer.

[doc]

It would be unfair for the NZ Army to continue to consider Corporal Apiata an active asset any longer.

Realistically I can't understand all this tut tut etc. Cpl Apiata accepted the award which required him to be named n shamed so to speak . A Brit 22 bloke was recommended for the same award at the Tora Bora caves, but turned it down because of the publicity required, so that he could stay active in the Regt.

Cpl Apiata acepted the award and is still active. I cant see why he has been compromised. After all once he is on the ground carrying out SAS duties the job is to avoid contact. The SAS role is basically "The eyes and ears of the Commander" When the "Shit hits the fan"your compromised anyway.....:(

[James Deuce]

I thought it unfair to leave him active after accepting the award quite frankly.

The rest of your post displays your lack of understanding quite graphically, though I don't think you will be convinced of that ever.

[doc]

I thought it unfair to leave him active after accepting the award quite frankly.

The rest of your post displays your lack of understanding quite graphically, though I don't think you will be convinced of that ever.

Ignorance is bliss. Aye

[Elysium]

Cpl Apiata acepted the award and is still active. I cant see why he has been compromised. After all once he is on the ground carrying out SAS duties the job is to avoid contact. The SAS role is basically "The eyes and ears of the Commander" When the "Shit hits the fan"your compromised anyway.....:(

You're forgetting the other guy that has been photgraphed.

[Hans]

Realistically I can't understand all this tut tut etc. Cpl Apiata accepted the award which required him to be named n shamed so to speak . A Brit 22 bloke was recommended for the same award at the Tora Bora caves, but turned it down because of the publicity required, so that he could stay active in the Regt.

Cpl Apiata acepted the award and is still active. I cant see why he has been compromised. After all once he is on the ground carrying out SAS duties the job is to avoid contact. The SAS role is basically "The eyes and ears of the Commander" When the "Shit hits the fan"your compromised anyway.....:(

It goes like this:

Everyone knows Apiata. Everyone knows the SAS is in the Stan. But not everyone has to know that Apiata is in over there right now.
The Afghans are known for putting bounties on heads (this may not be in the public domain). I personally know people who are worth us$15000 and which is a lot of money for the average afghani peasant. I can guarantee Apiata's head would fetch more. This means that even the average civilian might have a go. And an amateur will kill you just as dead as a pro. Imagine being somewhere, where everyone, literally, wants to kill you.

The army can:

Send him home - lose face.

Leave him whre he is - add more danger for Apiata.

If he dies - Well, do I have to say how much of a propaganda coup that would be for the rag'eads?

[Winston001]

Willy Apiata was given the choice of coming home but has elected to stay on deployment. I don't think the photo of a heavily bearded soldier would have been linked to his name if the damned press hadn't published it. For the insurgents, capturing/killing a Victoria Cross winner would be an enormous coup. They'll be looking for him.

As for being awarded the VC, that's a contentious issue. The rule used to be that no gongs were awarded to serving members of the Regiment. Rather unfair I've always thought but that was the rule. Willy Apiata won this military medal during an attack on a Taliban fortress in south-west Afghanistan in 2002(?). This was a major SAS operation - very daring do. A sergeant rushed a building and was hit in the hip, leaving him in the open exposed to enemy fire. Corporal Apiata ran forward at some very upset Taliban and picked his mate up and carried him back to cover while dodging hundreds of 7.62 rounds.

[Hans]

You're forgetting the other guy that has been photgraphed.


Yeah, he's now forever fucked. The SAS will at times deploy as civilians. This means travel on civilian airplanes as a regular passenger etc...
They can't let him do anything covert anymore. If he's lucky, he'll end up being an instructor. And that sucks bigtime.

[Hans]

Oh, and btw, google for images of "sas" and see how many uncovered faces you see. Chances are, if you see any at all, they're not real, or said soldier has retired. There are reasons for this.

[Oscar]

So, why does the Army have a picture of him on their website?????

[Hans]

Because the brass can be and often are fuckwits. IMHO the whole VC thing was a shambles from an ops point of view.

[Winston001]

plus the 5.56mm round is the standardised round of Nato countries.


Well......strictly the 7.62 is a NATO round too as used in the GPMG and SAW.

The research and rationale which went into adopting the 5.56 round would fill a shipping container. The work began even before the end of WWII. At its core, the ammunition is 50% lighter than the .303/7.62 ammo. Combine that with modern high discharge assault rifles and it becomes logical to help a soldier carry more ammunition. The lighter the better.

Probably the lynchpin of the 5.56 adoption by all manufacturers was the brilliant engineering work of Eugene Stoner. The man who gave us the M16. It had its faults and some of you may know that dead American soldiers in Vietnam were often found with jammed weapons. However the issues proved to be the gunpowder used, and lack of disciplined cleaning. Sadly this was only really sorted late in the war. The M16 has gone through various improvements since then and continues to be refined. Why the UK use the Diemaco or the SA 80 I don't know.

Still - all very interesting but the finest assault rifle in the world was designed by Kalisnakov in 1944 - the AK47 is 63 years old.

[Oscar]

Because the brass can be and often are fuckwits. IMHO the whole VC thing was a shambles from an ops point of view.

I agree - naming him as a VC recipient should have been the end of his active service (I assumed that he was leaving the SAS or they would have kept the award secret until he did).
I'm sure the Militarily and the Government saw it as great publicity.

So the PM & Army Brass can hardly complain about the Press.

[Hans]

I agree - naming him as a VC recipient should have been the end of his active service (I assumed that he was leaving the SAS or they would have kept the award secret until he did).
I'm sure the Militarily and the Government saw it as great publicity.

So the PM & Army Brass can hardly complain about the Press.

I agree to a point. My opinion is, that these are the army's fuckups to make. The press don't need to be helping. In another country I am well familiar with, the soldiers themselves would have sent the editor into ICU hours later. The next editor would have a good hard think before they made the same mistake.

[doc]

I dont think this thread would exist if the letters SAS had not been printed with the photo. Andy McNab has a lot to answer for. :oi-grr:

[Hans]

Still - all very interesting but the finest assault rifle in the world was designed by Kalisnakov in 1944 - the AK47 is 63 years old.

True... Except that special forces operatives will rarely if ever use an assault rifle. The assault rifle is a weapon of the infantry. It's like Rossi on a Suzuki Savage. Sure, he would make it go faster than any common rider. But to kick ass in the competitive field, it just won't do.

Besides, the AK is for the lowest forms of life. Russians, Africans and communist revolutionaries in general.

[jonbuoy]

If the Taliban are sat in their villages reading the NZ herald or somehow surfing on the internet and having the luxury of hand picking their targets do you not think that they would pick a better target - like the commander of the special forces in Afghanistan. They will take any target they possibly could at the moment. I´m sure Apia´s role as anything clandestine or undercover has been blown long ago, that doesn´t stop him being a useful SAS soldier in conflicts like this.

[Katman]

I've always been keen to join the Super Army Soldiers.

Anyone know the address to send my CV to?

[2_SL0]

Just thought I'd add my 0.2 worth.
The beard helps blend in with the locals (who are not Arabs, as someone here has said), it also gives them a measure of respect from the locals, as you simply cannot have a REAL MAN without a beard in Afghanistan.
The AUG is a decent enough weapon when being used in the the setting it was designed for, i.e. a NATO-USSR war in Europe. It is completely fucking useless in an urban setting, as it is too fucking long, too fucking unwieldy, can't be silenced without seriously affecting reliability etc... I remember one very unhappy diplomatic protection squad of a European country that shall remain nameless. They were simply issued with AUGs with no prior consultation. Just watching the poor cunts try to get in a car with the things was hilarious.

And yes, getting your photos published like this is potentially career ending for any member of a military special forces unit.
The Herald are piss weak cunts for doing this.

I think I typed Arab cus I couldnt be arsed typing Afgan lolol. My mistake.

[Elysium]

True... Except that special forces operatives will rarely if ever use an assault rifle. The assault rifle is a weapon of the infantry. It's like Rossi on a Suzuki Savage. Sure, he would make it go faster than any common rider. But to kick ass in the competitive field, it just won't do.

Besides, the AK is for the lowest forms of life. Russians, Africans and communist revolutionaries in general.

I doubt there was too much design there. More like copy much as they could from the German StG 44 the Russians captured after the war.

[Dave Lobster]

Andy McNab has a lot to answer for. :oi-grr:

Two Obvious.. Two Obvious.. ;)

[Swoop]

I thought it unfair to leave him active after accepting the award quite frankly.
It's Apiata's call. Quite frankly he is stuffed for any black operations, but perfectly capable of being deployed for run-of-the-mill work.


"The rest of your post displays your lack of understanding quite graphically". Hate to say it, but this is going to be a "classic quote" for 2010.

[sAsLEX]

3. It's no secret that the NZ SAS is deployed in Afganistan.

Read this for an accurate insight into the NZDF's wanting the media to leave these pictures out of the media.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10621788


Short answer, they dont use the Steyr because its not that great. (It was purchased/chosen due to a political decsion rather than a military decision)
Logistically they will be using similar to the US as that is who I believe they will be serving with and therfore it makes more sense for supply requirments.



Er - the Army has a photo of him on its website.
Are we assuming that terrorists read the Herald but don't surf the web?

http://www.army.mil.nz/nr/rdonlyres/ed511039-c060-4472-8739-ec92b8174e6c/0/ak07030995tn.jpg

In that photo tactically relevant? Does it show his current location, weapon, load etc? No.

Does the Herald photo. Yes.

Poles apart in that sense. Yes it does show his face, but in a completely different context.


I'm pretty sure that "pop gun" would happily put you down.

Unless you were at any sort of range wearing minimal armour, there is much in military media regards 5.56 just not cutting the mustard.


Thats the second time I've heard that argument and it still sounds like BS. I would have thought it would be for the increased accuracy and lower drop-rate, but what ever...

Ball ammunition is required under current laws. It wounds more than it kills in smaller calibres, and is intended to reduce morale!


as it is too fucking long

Really? Explain?

690mm is not that long, in fact shorter than a lot of MP5 configurations.



Well......strictly the 7.62 is a NATO round too as used in the GPMG and SAW.

The research and rationale which went into adopting the 5.56 round would fill a shipping container. The work began even before the end of WWII. At its core, the ammunition is 50% lighter than the .303/7.62 ammo. Combine that with modern high discharge assault rifles and it becomes logical to help a soldier carry more ammunition. The lighter the better.


Still - all very interesting but the finest assault rifle in the world was designed by Kalisnakov in 1944 - the AK47 is 63 years old.

5.56 is looking to be on the way out.

There has been a number of article in Jane's Defence Weekly, and IDR etc outlining the problems being faced in modern warfare with the 5.56 round, and how more and more units are switching to larger calibres.

The range and knock-down/armour penetration are key downfalls.


I've always been keen to join the Super Army Soldiers.

Anyone know the address to send my CV to?

Defence House
2-12 Aitken Street
Private Bag
Wellington



Who can join the NZSAS?

Military personnel from either the regular or reserve component of the NZ Defence Force can apply to join the NZSAS. The majority of applicants have generally had at least two years military experience. Applicants need to be physically fit and have a high level of motivation. Find out more about careers in the NZ Army, Royal NZ Airforce, and Royal NZ Navy.

[Hitcher]

Despite all of the bagging of the 5.56 round used by the Steyr, it's exactly the same round as used in the M4A1 that Corporal Apiata is illustrated as carrying.

[Panzerkampfwagen VI]

If I was working in Afganistan, I'd shoot the media, not the terriorists...... Media are easier to find

[wbks]

Despite all of the bagging of the 5.56 round used by the Steyr, it's exactly the same round as used in the M4A1 that Corporal Apiata is illustrated as carrying.

People were bagging the 5.56, others were ripping on the steyr. Not the same thing, and I'm pretty sure that isn't an M4A1.
http://www.google.co.nz/webhp?hl=en&tab=iw&q=diemaco%20c8#hl=en&source=hp&q=diemaco+c8&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=diemaco+c8&fp=88fd358fd75aac21
Though I'm sure someone will correct me...

[Winston001]

5.56 is looking to be on the way out.

There has been a number of article in Jane's Defence Weekly, and IDR etc outlining the problems being faced in modern warfare with the 5.56 round, and how more and more units are switching to larger calibres.

The range and knock-down/armour penetration are key downfalls.





That's interesting. The current alternative of 7.62 is much heavier though. Fine for vehicle based missions but the hard soldiering in mountains and house to house still requires a soldier to carry enough ammo. One answer I guess is that most of the worlds revolutionaries manage to carry enough for their AK47s. Mind you they tend to be on home turf and don't have far to go.

I'd have thought that further development of the bullet profile and gunpowder would be worth researching before abandoning 50 years worth of weapons. There is also a suggestion that barrel length and rifling can be tweaked to make the 5.56 round more effective. Of course a long barrel must be a pain.

[Winston001]

One thing I've never understood is why modern assault rifles require such care and attention. Just read a book where a soldier remarked that his Diemaco which had been taken by rebels would be useless in no time. Yet the same rebels had no problems with their AK47s. I've heard that the Uzi is similarly robust.

[wbks]

Wow, I see the herald is having a bitch about criticism for releasing the picture. They say that they didn't know it was him and they wouldn't have said so if they did... Right, the next guy can recognise him without a second thought, but you publish it anyway, and then actually go on to complain about how LITTLE we are told about the SAS... Most people are cool with not hearing anything about them, as they understand that it is the way the Special Air Service is supposed to be, and makes it easier for them, which leaves the only possible conclusion (no surprises here): The Herald don't give a shit about putting lives at risk, so long as they get the first scoop and can profit. Not the first time they've given me the impression of being leeches, not honest journalists, and this is more proof

[wbks]

One thing I've never understood is why modern assault rifles require such care and attention. Just read a book where a soldier remarked that his Diemaco which had been taken by rebels would be useless in no time. Yet the same rebels had no problems with their AK47s. I've heard that the Uzi is similarly robust.

One reason is the tolerances. Like with a formula one vs your family car, one has way higher tolerances and therefor run more reliably and consistently, the other one performs a lot better but only takes a bit of dust sucked in and it will destroy itself. Sand works in through parts in a high tech rifle and can easily cause issues, where with an AK for example you can (and its on youtube) throw a few hand fulls of sand in under the dust cover and there will still be enough room between moving parts to function. Of course, the trade off is that your average AK47 or Uzi won't be half as accurate as any "modern assault rifle"

[sAsLEX]

That's interesting. The current alternative of 7.62 is much heavier though. Fine for vehicle based missions but the hard soldiering in mountains and house to house still requires a soldier to carry enough ammo. One answer I guess is that most of the worlds revolutionaries manage to carry enough for their AK47s. Mind you they tend to be on home turf and don't have far to go.

I'd have thought that further development of the bullet profile and gunpowder would be worth researching before abandoning 50 years worth of weapons. There is also a suggestion that barrel length and rifling can be tweaked to make the 5.56 round more effective. Of course a long barrel must be a pain.

Its not that they are looking at moving to the 7.62, but a replacement cartridge for the 5.56.

6.8mm Remington SPC and 6.5mm Grendel etc

[Hans]

Really? Explain?

690mm is not that long, in fact shorter than a lot of MP5 configurations.



It is in fact more like 800mm. An mp with a fixed stock is at least 100mm shorter, not even talking about the folding stock versions. And the fact that it's a bullpup configuration means sweet fuck all until you actually fire it. Until then it's as unwieldy as standard config. AUG also has no three-round-burst mode, which is annoying.

And yes, most special forces unit will have access to M4s, but IMHO the only reason why they'd use them is compatibility(logistics).

[Hans]

Oh yeah, and an MP5 in 10mmAuto is my personal choice. It rocks. Any automatic in .45ACP is also pretty awesome for urban situations. .45ACP is generally an overlooked round in terms of urban/police work. Very good stopping power and you don't have to get special loads to silence it. Subsonic even at 200gr.

[allycatz]

My ex was SAS...honestly the places they get dropped into don't have newspapers or the internet....Apiata is still as useful as he ever was. These guys are deployed in places you've never heard of

[wbks]

My ex was SAS...honestly the places they get dropped into don't have newspapers or the internet....Apiata is still as useful as he ever was. These guys are deployed in places you've never heard of
Like Afghanistan?... If something were to happen to him or his family because of his publicity, it wouldn't be the first time that kind of thing has happened. I couldn't put a time and date on it, but I've been told of an ex brit SAS trooper, Northern Ireland vet., who was jumped outside a pub and killed by IRA henchmen, obviously his identity wasn't concealed well enough ... With Muslim extremists getting closer to home, recently in Aus... Is it really such a jump to assume that someone with such a high public status or their family may be targeted by certain people? As far as I know, Afghanistan isn't prominent with that kind of thing, but regular soldiers were being beheaded on camera not too long ago, I bet certain people would love to get their hands on our infidel hero Mr. Apiata, or those close to him... What a message

[allycatz]

Like Afghanistan?... If something were to happen to him or his family because of his publicity, it wouldn't be the first time that kind of thing has happened. I couldn't put a time and date on it, but I've been told of an ex brit SAS trooper, Northern Ireland vet., who was jumped outside a pub and killed by IRA henchmen, obviously his identity wasn't concealed well enough ... With Muslim extremists getting closer to home, recently in Aus... Is it really such a jump to assume that someone with such a high public status or their family may be targeted by certain people? As far as I know, Afghanistan isn't prominent with that kind of thing, but regular soldiers were being beheaded on camera not too long ago, I bet certain people would love to get their hands on our infidel hero Mr. Apiata, or those close to him... What a message

If the media could photograph him so could anyone else wishing to 'target' him. NZ should never have made public the location of SAS deployment. It was only a short while ago that SAS guys did not receive awards because of the ' secret squirrel' act

[wbks]

If the media could photograph him so could anyone else wishing to 'target' him. NZ should never have made public the location of SAS deployment. It was only a short while ago that SAS guys did not receive awards because of the ' secret squirrel' act

But as maybe you or someone else said, until someone felt it was necessary to publicize him, and even now confirm that he was in Afghanistan, "they" would be just as clueless to his identity as the next person. Maybe they shouldn't have revealed the location. If people are worried about someone reacting to our position on the war than announcing the sending of a combat force kind of ceals the deal...

[allycatz]

Did anyone else read the comment by John Key in The Dom Post about Apiata receiving $35k worth of media training? Key basically implied that after that expenditure he was available to the media

[wbks]

Did anyone else read the comment by John Key in The Dom Post about Apiata receiving $35k worth of media training? Key basically implied that after that expenditure he was available to the media
Maybe he figured it was a good way to rally most of the country behind (or at least render indifferent to) an unpopular war?

[allycatz]

Maybe he figured it was a good way to rally most of the country behind (or at least render indifferent to) an unpopular war?

Right or wrong they were great photos from a patriotic point of view

[wbks]

Right or wrong they were great photos from a patriotic point of viewI was talking about the whole VC awarding thing, but I guess he does look pretty badass in that pic:Punk:

[sAsLEX]

It is in fact more like 800mm. An mp with a fixed stock is at least 100mm shorter, not even talking about the folding stock versions. And the fact that it's a bullpup configuration means sweet fuck all until you actually fire it. Until then it's as unwieldy as standard config. AUG also has no three-round-burst mode, which is annoying.

And yes, most special forces unit will have access to M4s, but IMHO the only reason why they'd use them is compatibility(logistics).

The fast it is a bullpup design makes the weapon 200mm shorter than a standard configuration for the same barrel length, and the carbine is 690mm.

[Skyryder]

Does anyone expect an overseas owned business, let alone a newspaper to act in the interests of its host country? Common courtesy should have dictated restraint from any NZ media in publishing the photo, of an SAS New Zealand soldier actively engaged in war zone that the Government had sent him to.


The fact of the matter is that once Apia was awarded the VC he became a news item and his face was splashed across the worlds media.

The real damage was done by our Prime Minister John Key in confirming that the soldier was indeed Willia Apaia. What is so despicable is the excuse he gave.

“At the end of the day, I’m not going to stand up and lie to the New Zealand media.”

No problem with Key lying to the media about his TRANZ RAIL shares. But that of course was for Keys interest. When it come to the safety of our most recent VC winner and his family that’s another matter.

A simple ‘No comment,’ would have sufficed

What an absolute disgrace this man is.


Skyryder

[Swoop]

No problem with Key lying to the media about his TRANZ RAIL shares. But that of course was for Keys interest.
A bit like your beloved Unkle Heilen lying about her painting signature, etc, etc. But that is easily forgotten by the NZ public eh?

[Skyryder]

A bit like your beloved Unkle Heilen lying about her painting signature, etc, etc. But that is easily forgotten by the NZ public eh?

Is that the best that you can come up with for a Key's defence. Clarke's 'lie' was for a charity. A 'conveniant truth' the Key apologists fail to mention.


Clark could keep her mouth shut on defence issues. Not this arsehose we have a Prime Minister. And remember this is the man who is backing Smith and his lies.


Skyryder

[Beemer]

Love the photo. Can only dream of being the best of the best!

I must confess, if they took women in the SAS, hell, I'd be lining up after seeing that photo - what a spunk!

As has been pointed out, the defence force had photos of him on missions on their website and he was a public figure after winning the award, so I doubt it would put him in any more danger than what he is already. I don't think he will be targeted by the bad guys as they are already doing that.

Someone in the paper said "how bad ass does he look!" and they were right - great campaign poster!

[MIXONE]

If it was me he was heading towards I'd be running the other way very fast.

[Oscar]

Is that the best that you can come up with for a Key's defence. Clarke's 'lie' was for a charity. A 'conveniant truth' the Key apologists fail to mention.


Clark could keep her mouth shut on defence issues. Not this arsehose we have a Prime Minister. And remember this is the man who is backing Smith and his lies.


Skyryder

Didn't Apiata get his VC publicly awarded under the last Govt.?

[Skyryder]

Didn't Apiata get his VC publicly awarded under the last Govt.?

Yes he did.

Key publicly 'confirmed' the ID of an SAS soldier on active service. That in itself is bad enough. What is unforgivable is his 'stated reason for doing so. That he was not going to lie to the media. Like I said it's good enough for him to lie to protect his own interests but to confirm the ID of and active NZ soldier in a war zone when a simple NO COMMENT would have sufficed is as an absolute disgrace. He's an embarrassment and an affront to our dignity.


Skyryder

[Oscar]

Yes he did.

Key publicly 'confirmed' the ID of an SAS soldier on active service. That in itself is bad enough. What is unforgivable is his 'stated reason for doing so. That he was not going to lie to the media. Like I said it's good enough for him to lie to protect his own interests but to confirm the ID of and active NZ soldier in a war zone when a simple NO COMMENT would have sufficed is as an absolute disgrace. He's an embarrassment and an affront to our dignity.


Skyryder

But using that logic - surely after the (Labour) Govt. & the Defense Forces decided that the VC was good publicity, then Apiata was always going to be a marked man. He shouldn't have gone back on active service.

Notwithstanding that, the Press didn't need the PM's confirmation that it was Apiata in the pic.

[Skyryder]

But using that logic - surely after the (Labour) Govt. & the Defense Forces decided that the VC was good publicity, then Apiata was always going to be a marked man. He shouldn't have gone back on active service.

Notwithstanding that, the Press didn't need the PM's confirmation that it was Apiata in the pic.

I'm not in disagreement with you. The Press 'did' ask. All Key had say was No Comment.

It was Apiata's choice to go back and as such I would have thought that given the VC medal both Key and the media should have been more discreet about his presence in Afghanistan. But the fact of the matter Key 'did' confirm the ID of an SAS soldier on active duty and for reasons that were personal to Key. It did not involve Government business or any kind of PR whatsoever. The confirmation was made on Keys’ personal ego….nothing more nothing less……………”I’m not going to lie to the media………………………”

I can only come to the conclusion that the Key apologists support his confirmation and the reason for it. And yet this makes a mockery of condemning the publication of the photo. You can not in all credibility condemn one and make 'excuses' for the other.

In my first post on this I have condemned both the publication, in that offshore owned business do not act in our national interests (Aussie Banks tax evasion) and that of Key's confirmation.

Skyryder

[Swoop]

All Key had say was No Comment.
You are making yourself look foolish with your rantings. The world's media has "let the cat out of the bag" as it were, and JK has simply (& honestly) stated that someone is on active duty in Afganistan. This location was also leaked by the world media.
Big deal.

Honesty.
What your beloved helen (or cullen) could never be accused of...

[2_SL0]

I was told that the first batch from Austria had plastic issues. The harsh UV we have here, was breaking down the plastic in the stocks.
"Louder". I was referring to the amount of noise the stock makes when patrolling. Get a twig scraping along the stock and it is quite loud.

Well, you had better inform the squadron about that then...

The first batch was fine, the problem occurred when we were to cheap to replace the plastic components with geniune components and tried to manufacture the replacment parts in NZ, we initially failed to manufacture them correctly and made them slightly to small. These were a snug fit and failed due to this. That is the only plastic component failure I am aware of that was related to the first batch apart from the normal w & t.

[Skyryder]

You are making yourself look foolish with your rantings. The world's media has "let the cat out of the bag" as it were, and JK has simply (& honestly) stated that someone is on active duty in Afganistan. This location was also leaked by the world media.
Big deal.

Honesty.
What your beloved helen (or cullen) could never be accused of...

Nothing foolish in sticking it to Key. Not for me.

No......... John Key did not simply state that someone was on active service he identified the individual for his own personal reasons. That’s the issue. Like I’ve always said. Keys’s nothing but a cunt and that is not a word I use lightly, and this issue proves it. That’s the galling bit for the Key apologists. They know I’m right and the best theycan do is try and tack this onto Labour. That's the foolish bit. This issue has nothing to do with Labour Clarke, and now Cullen. Surprised you have not blamed the tooth fairy.

Skyryder

[nudemetalz]

Yippee yay....lets disband the SAS now !!! No need for them after this <a href=http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3263639/New-openness-on-SAS-Afghanistan-operations>bombshell</a> (bad choice of words !!)

[R6_kid]

They're spending all that time in Afghanistan as NZ's best trained war fighters, and they haven't even fired a shot? That's like taking a race bike to the track and just leaving it in the pits. Sounds to me like they are just there to eat their lunches!

[nudemetalz]

You really believe they haven't fired a shot?
Me thinks they have :)

[DougieNZ]

I can't believe this has turned in to a "bash Key" thread. Lets stick with the "my gun is bigger than yours" and "this calibre of round is no good" stuff - much more entertaining.

The damage was done here by the media publishing the photo with two SAS members faces in it. Yiu can't stop the photographer taking the photo. But the Herald and other media organisations deliberately sought it out and published it. THAT is where the problem started. Any imbicile could see who was in the photo when the image wasn't blurred. You wouldn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out!!! So what key did was not wrong by any means. The problem started when the photo was published. It clearly pinpointed the NZSAS and where they were operating - with what weapons etc etc.

Imagine what kudos the terrorists would get by cap[turing/killing an infidel VC.

Now you might argue that Apiata deserves everything he gets because he paraded himself around the country with his gong pinned to his chest... but the obvious question is - why should an award for extreme bravcery cost him his career in the SAS? I am sure it wasn't his idea to do the publicity thing. The whole thing should have been held off until he left the SAS.

A bit silly, isn't it. "Here is your VC. Well done. Oh - by the way your ops career is over and you will now be sitting behind a desk for the rest of your time with the SAS counting paper clips".

This is typical Kiwi tall poppy stuff......

I am totally pissed off with the millitary brass now. They not only make the decision to parade this guy around the country while an active SAS member, now they feel that they have to show overhead photos or operations and discuss exactly with the SAS are or are not doing. This would be sort of understandable of the current Chief of Defence was NOT A FORMER SAS MEMBER. Come on Jerry - how would you have felt if that was members of your team plastered all over the NZ media? This whole thing has proven - give the media an inch and they want a mile!! Key and CDF are currently digging themselves a bigger and bigger hole. JUST SAY NO COMMENT!!!

We have rapists and child molesters in this country getting name/photo supression all the time. The media respect that and comply without complaint - right or wrong. On the other hand we have a guy who has done some heroic stuff identified along with his mate while on active duty - doubtless placing their lives at risk... Don't we have our priorities wrong here?

[Skyryder]

I can only come to the conclusion that the Key apologists support his confirmation and the reason for it. And yet this makes a mockery of condemning the publication of the photo. You can not in all credibility condemn one and make 'excuses' for the other.

Skyryder


he(Key) identified the individual for his own personal reasons. That’s the issue.
Skyryder


I can't believe this has turned in to a "bash Key" thread. Lets stick with the "my gun is bigger than yours" and "this calibre of round is no good" stuff - much more entertaining.

The damage was done here by the media publishing the photo with two SAS members faces in it. Yiu can't stop the photographer taking the photo. But the Herald and other media organisations deliberately sought it out and published it. THAT is where the problem started. Any imbicile could see who was in the photo when the image wasn't blurred. You wouldn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out!!!

I am totally pissed off with the millitary brass now. They not only make the decision to parade this guy around the country while an active SAS member, now they feel that they have to show overhead photos or operations and discuss exactly with the SAS are or are not doing. This would be sort of understandable of the current Chief of Defence was NOT A FORMER SAS MEMBER. Come on Jerry - how would you have felt if that was members of your team plastered all over the NZ media? This whole thing has proven - give the media an inch and they want a mile!! Key and CDF are currently digging themselves a bigger and bigger hole. JUST SAY NO COMMENT!!!



That's what I said. NO COMMENT. Key could not say that.

The decision to inform the media on SAS operations and deployment issues is a Government decison not a miltary one.

Skyryder

[peasea]

I can't believe this has turned in to a "bash Key" thread. Lets stick with the "my gun is bigger than yours" and "this calibre of round is no good" stuff - much more entertaining.

The damage was done here by the media publishing the photo with two SAS members faces in it. Yiu can't stop the photographer taking the photo. But the Herald and other media organisations deliberately sought it out and published it. THAT is where the problem started. Any imbicile could see who was in the photo when the image wasn't blurred. You wouldn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out!!! So what key did was not wrong by any means. The problem started when the photo was published. It clearly pinpointed the NZSAS and where they were operating - with what weapons etc etc.

Imagine what kudos the terrorists would get by cap[turing/killing an infidel VC.

Now you might argue that Apiata deserves everything he gets because he paraded himself around the country with his gong pinned to his chest... but the obvious question is - why should an award for extreme bravcery cost him his career in the SAS? I am sure it wasn't his idea to do the publicity thing. The whole thing should have been held off until he left the SAS.

A bit silly, isn't it. "Here is your VC. Well done. Oh - by the way your ops career is over and you will now be sitting behind a desk for the rest of your time with the SAS counting paper clips".

This is typical Kiwi tall poppy stuff......

I am totally pissed off with the millitary brass now. They not only make the decision to parade this guy around the country while an active SAS member, now they feel that they have to show overhead photos or operations and discuss exactly with the SAS are or are not doing. This would be sort of understandable of the current Chief of Defence was NOT A FORMER SAS MEMBER. Come on Jerry - how would you have felt if that was members of your team plastered all over the NZ media? This whole thing has proven - give the media an inch and they want a mile!! Key and CDF are currently digging themselves a bigger and bigger hole. JUST SAY NO COMMENT!!!

We have rapists and child molesters in this country getting name/photo supression all the time. The media respect that and comply without complaint - right or wrong. On the other hand we have a guy who has done some heroic stuff identified along with his mate while on active duty - doubtless placing their lives at risk... Don't we have our priorities wrong here?

Good post and good points, especially suggesting that the VC wait until Apiata's SAS term was over. Just put it on record, wait for him to retire or get a desk job (yeah right) and THEN give him the award, the publicity and the status. Then he could have happily gone about his business with everyone blissfully unaware he was a hero and therefore not a target. Well, not such a big one anyway....

PS: Fuck the NZ Herald, twats.

[Winston001]

I don't think we can get anywhere arguing about Apiata's VC publicity. Its the first time I've ever heard of an active duty SAS award (British or otherwise) but it's happened. Possibly the Brits and NZ military decided it was time to get some good publicity.

As for the published photo, maybe I'm naive but it simply showed two soldiers on a street in Kabul. One may have been an Afghanistani (Apiata with a beard). The main reason we know a lot more is because of the NZ Herald for whom I have complete contempt. Yes it could have been in foreign papers but why would they bother to publish - just another war pic. I do agree with Skyryder that John Key should have simply said "No comment".

Finally on the subject of Victoria Crosses, there is one glaring omission in SAS history - that of no VC being awarded posthumously to Fijian Talaiasi Labalaba after the Battle of Mirbat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mirbat. This is an example of how the SAS formerly operated - no gongs, all very secret. And unfair from my armchair point of view.

[Winston001]

One reason is the tolerances. Like with a formula one vs your family car, one has way higher tolerances and therefor run more reliably and consistently, the other one performs a lot better but only takes a bit of dust sucked in and it will destroy itself. Sand works in through parts in a high tech rifle and can easily cause issues.....

Thanks for the good explanation which makes sense. I suppose a robust assault rifle which takes a lot of abuse must sacrifice accuracy.

There is an interesting discussion regarding 5.56 vs 7.62 here http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread27560/pg1
One poster points out that Paul Mauser developed his rifle in 1898 and it was accurate out to 2000 yards (meters). Makes the current asault rifles look pretty wimpy with an accurate range around 400m. Ok, further for marksmen but still....

During the Boer War (1899 - 1902) soldier's lines were a mile apart (1700m) and the ordinary soldier was firing at and hitting the other side.

I appreciate modern warfare ranges from tiny streets to deserts to jungle. One size rifle does not fit all. Even so an accurate long gun over 1000m is surely worth having.

[Dave Lobster]

This is an example of how the SAS formerly operated - no gongs, all very secret. And unfair from my armchair point of view.

I don't know anyone with a VC. But I've worked with several people with a QGM, including my former tp sgt. And I've worked with member of the SAS on CT jobs.
Nobody joins up to collect gongs. Nobody does things that merit a gong, in order to get one. Anyone that feels aggrieved that they've not received a gallantry medal is probably in the mob for the wrong reasons.

[sAsLEX]

And unfair from my armchair point of view.

Do they want, ask or care for a gong?

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.

I would think most aren't there for the glory.