Ride smoother and safer (and get paid to do it!) [Archive]

sugilite

26th January 2010, 23:53

As my racing became almost non existent, I'm pleased to report that my road riding km's have gone up. While it has not been a easy transition to the road I've found myself now riding in a fashion I thought I'd share for anyone interested. :zzzz:

It's all about Smooooooth. One of the key factors to this is the brakes, or more lack of. When approaching a corner, aim to arrive at the perfect speed for said corner without using your brakes. Then gently roll on the throttle going into, through and out the corner. (always stay on your side of the centre line)
That alone will bring the following benefits.
1. Will automatically give you a plan B should the unexpected happen....You can use your brakes and have time to change/alter your cornering line. Having a plan C is also a good idea (for instance both braking and altering your cornering line)

2. Gently accelerating in and through the corner takes the weight off the front wheel (read- much safer), settles the bikes suspension and throttle use can be used to change your cornering radius (more on this later)

3. The nature of this riding style dictates you look well ahead. Riders that do not look far ahead find their motorcycling experience to be a scary world where everything happens quickly and somewhat unpredictably. :shit:

4. The smoothness brings on the flow, and once the flow is achieved and maintained, then that elusive Zen state can be easier accessed!

5. Your tyres, brake pads and fuel will all go a lot further saving you $$$$ which you can sink straight back into the bike :lol:

6. It's such a relaxing way to ride, you save on physical energy, especially over a long trip. Now understand this is physically easier on your body, but you still cannot afford to phone it in with your thought processes. BE EVER VIGILANT AT ALL TIMES.

7. Believe it or not, getting it right is FUN and rewarding.

Exercises I've used to speed up the learning process:
1. Since the key of the process is arriving at the corner at a perfect speed, I made up a game for myself, consisting of when approaching an object be it a corner, or catching up to traffic in front...what ever..I would roll off the throttle early, if I had to brake when approaching a corner or a line of traffic, I'd "lose points". Now for goodness sake set a large safety margin!!! I'm not suggesting for a moment, that should you need to brake, that you leave it late. You would be a total Dork or Dorkett if you rear ended a car while trying to "win" your game now wouldn't you?

2. In order to reduce velocity, down changing gears is a permitted activity. Though not to the detriment of your clutch!!! An over revving motor does not a smooth rider make! Also, while not necessarily aiding "smooth", one can try sitting upright and sticking elbows in the breeze (you may be suprised how well this can work at reducing speed).

Whats this using the throttle to tighten or widen your corner line?
Hell, I'm glad I asked that question :lol:
Simply put, you choose your intended line (or be at least attempting to!) and commit to it, sometimes you realize you need to be on a tighter or wider line than what you are. Using the above style, you are accelerating gently through the entire corner. If you reduce the throttle, your bike will tighten it's line, and if you apply more throttle the bike will widen it's line, all with no bodily input, let the bike do more of the work while also upping the smooooth and fun factor!

Finding a quiet section of road you know well to practise on can be very helpful, especially when trying out this style for the first few times. Up hill is better as it makes things easier, as you naturally decelerate faster for corners.

Anyway, practicing the above quickly allows you to master your approach speeds perfectly and you too can start riding the flow. :cool:

MSTRS

27th January 2010, 07:40

Great post, young man.
This is how I (attempt to) ride. I came to the realisation that it was a desireable style, after listening to both you and JamesDeuce's predecessor (!). That means I combine your smooth with Jim's late apexing style.
Works for me.
Tyres last longer (18,000kms PR2s) and brake pads also (current ones have been on the bike 30,000kms).

duckonin

27th January 2010, 07:59

Yep on the nail, tyres last me around 20.000k's and still on the original brake pads at 97,000k's

sugilite

27th January 2010, 09:00

Cheers Guys, I forgot to mention last night that there's more and I'm happy to keep adding to this thread with other techniques and exercises if people are interested?

kiwifruit

27th January 2010, 09:10

Okey Dokey

27th January 2010, 09:54

Cheers Guys, I forgot to mention last night that there's more and I'm happy to keep adding to this thread with other techniques and exercises if people are interested?

Yes, please! That style of riding really suits this gal.

sugilite

27th January 2010, 10:11

Cool, cool, well, since I have covered anti-braking, I will cover late and emergency braking next to balance it out. Then it will be back to working on the smoooooth style :yes: I'll endeavor to try and give a new set of techniques and exercises too do at a rate of once per week as not to overwhelm people and give plenty of time to practise. (thats the fun part!)

gijoe1313

27th January 2010, 10:53

Top work that man! I often get asked if my rear brakes are working, I say yes ... and then the penny drops :lol: smooove (smooth plus moving) riding is where it's at! I often chuckle at the drenched, sweaty and tired looking faces on sprotsbikers when I have been doing the same exact ride, arriving at the same time at the same location ... and still fresh as a daisy!

Keep posting, and I'll keep reading! :niceone:

chanceyy

27th January 2010, 11:48

Smooth operator all right :laugh: From the first time I ever pillioned with you and know how much of a smooth ride it is. since we discussed it in length I have been working on that each ride .. and love it :)

now I realise its not just about speed and smoothness is where its at .. that what I have worked on .. and funny dunna ya know it speed is there when I want it :)

Must get out for another mentoring session before the cold weather hits :yes: and Great Post :clap:

wingnutt

27th January 2010, 12:31

absolutely right on the nose well done!

I endeavor to ride like you suggest, all the time, and once the flow starts, its just
magic!

cheers,

Bob

The Pastor

27th January 2010, 16:26

something i noticed is, on a lot of corners on the open road you don't need brakes (up to 200km/hr) yet people still brake.

I was on a ride on my cbr250, and there were 600's and 1000's, the obviously had the straight line (and cornering if they were smart enough) advantage, but i found they still used the brakes - even if it was very very minor braking - before each and every corner. So if the are breaking for 20 or so meters before every bend and i was accelerating (i was WOT the entire time, im on a 250!) I could gain considerable ground on them, to the point where i could overtake on the brakes.

I found it quite a challenge to enter a corner wot and keep it there, but its really easy to do, once you get over the mental bit.

This was on a heavy traffic volume road with no safety gear at excessive speeds.

sugilite

27th January 2010, 18:02

Trolling, though fun at times does not have much of a humouress tone or add much relevant value when placed in a thread within the survival section.

I totally agree with you there and could not have put it better myself, you the man.

Anyone is free to post any info they feel is relevant to the thread. I'm also happy to attempt to answer any questions people may have regarding post #1 :yes:

Jerms

27th January 2010, 18:49

Cheers Guys, I forgot to mention last night that there's more and I'm happy to keep adding to this thread with other techniques and exercises if people are interested?

Yes please, keep adding more!

emaN

27th January 2010, 19:04

Good to know there are "others out there"! :D

I've had a few good hearted chuckles come my way cos of my lines and late-apexing but hey, my tyres last longer, don't get ripped and I don't end up riding to the edge of my rubber either... But my pads sure ain't lasting over 90,000km!!!! I'd replace them anyways! Surely weather and road grime and shelf-life have taken their toll!?

ckai

27th January 2010, 20:02

Very very nice work mate. Well explained and always like logical "exercises" to do to practice and learn faster. The ironic thing is I was practising this exact technique during my ride when I had my accident, although, the corner I had it on, everything I was working on, I stopped doing. That really proved a point :)

Keep it coming my. I'm all eyes...:rockon:

Leseid

27th January 2010, 20:20

CookMySock

27th January 2010, 20:38

It's good fun playing games with things like that. I've always done that with riding, driving, or just walking along the street - no stepping on the lines!

Corners are perfection in, perfection out. No braking, just corner. Sometimes the bike goes in the correct place, tyres go wherever, other times tyres go in the correct place and bike goes wherever.

Whatever the method, the aim is always total discpline, control, and accuracy. The outcome is "choice" - that is, I can dictate precisely what my outcome will be at any time.

I used to do the same thing flying planes - always perfection, all the numbers correct, all needles steady-state unless I intend to make a change, everything successfully predicted in advance, all failures taken as a challenge. My instructor used to frown, cross his arms, and say "hrmmm very good steven", and move onto the next exercise. hehehe.

Steve

MSTRS

28th January 2010, 07:50

Sometimes the bike goes in the correct place, tyres go wherever, other times tyres go in the correct place and bike goes wherever.

Don't give up your day job...

Katman

28th January 2010, 07:58

Don't give up your day job...

But, but, but....... a licensed motorcycle instructor agreed with him..........

.......once.:wacko:

yungatart

28th January 2010, 08:25

It's good fun playing games with things like that. I've always done that with riding, driving, or just walking along the street - no stepping on the lines!

Corners are perfection in, perfection out. No braking, just corner. Sometimes the bike goes in the correct place, tyres go wherever, other times tyres go in the correct place and bike goes wherever.

Whatever the method, the aim is always total discpline, control, and accuracy. The outcome is "choice" - that is, I can dictate precisely what my outcome will be at any time.

Steve
These two statements seem to contradict one another.

Surely, if you are in control of your bike, you determine where it goes, (as in the bike and the tyres) and if you are not in control, then, well, it probably isn't going to be pretty.

What a senseless, thoughtless post to make...honestly, I am amazed that you still can amaze me!

The whole point of the thread is to ensure safer, more enjoyable riding, your contribution does nothing to achieve either of these.

sugilite

28th January 2010, 09:43

The problem I have as a newb is on coming cars mid corner scare the crap out of me, even though they are a safe distance away. So to maintain newb control I've taken looking ahead to a new level by glancing further down the road if it curls into a distant view. If I see a car I know it's coming so I am much smoother through the corners. Is this recommended?

What's the smooth riding technique for steep down hill corners? I seem to be using my rear brake more down hill and leaning back more when leaning over, is this a good or bad thing?

Cheers, Euan.

I hear you Euan, as a newbie one already has a lot on their plate to deal with. With most of your thought processes and sensory capacity allready being taken up with the learning process of cornering a motorcycle, a car seemingly appearing out of no where can overwhelm the remaining thought and perception processes you have left.

The action you have taken to look further ahead is commendable and recommended action, you may also want to consider what I've written below.

The first thing to do is build the space to enable your sensory perception and thought processes are not overwhelmed. I'm assuming that you have this issue more on right hand corners where you a naturally closer to a car coming the other way. This being the case, make sure you take a line that means when you are leant over, your head and shoulders are still well on your side of the centre line and you are at a speed where you can pick up the bike and alter your line if need be. When you see a car coming, sharpen your focus on it and identify the car is on a good line and speed, then consign the car to your peripheral vision (but be on alert for any changes in the cars cornering arc) and concentrate on your completion of the corner. If you notice any change in the cars cornering arc within your peripheral vision, pick the bike up immediately, do not waste time thinking about it!

Using the smooth technique downhill is more challenging, but still very do-able, you simply throttle off even sooner, change down a little sooner, and do not accelerate as hard out of the downhill corners.

Using the rear brake gently while going down hill can definitly help steady the bike. I tend to just lean naturally when riding down hill. I save the leaning forward or back for the race track where you are invariably trying to make up for the short comings of suspension and handling of the bike when pushing at 100%. This should not be a issue at all when out road riding.

neels

28th January 2010, 10:07

Thanks for the excellent explanation.

I had a play with this last night, lately I've been working on not completely throttling off coming into corners which had become a habit, and what you posted has added to this quite nicely. It makes riding a lot more pleasant (and probably being my passenger as well) regulating the throttle rather than on/off on the throttle and brakes. I'm not racing so I don't need to be the last of the late brakers on every corner, and having followed other riders I avoid the brakes unless I am losing a decent amount of speed because it really puts me off having a brake light come on before every corner.

Interestingly what you have said fits with the 2 things I clearly remember from when my dad was teaching me to drive - when cornering go in slow and come out fast, go in fast and come out backwards (quote from some famous racing driver), and going down hills use the same gear that you would use going up so you're not on the brakes all the way down.

ckai

28th January 2010, 11:44

and going down hills use the same gear that you would use going up so you're not on the brakes all the way down.

This is very good advice. Didn't think of it this way but do it instinctively anyway. Still, it's a great way to put it.

Squiggles

28th January 2010, 22:09

If you reduce the throttle, your bike will tighten it's line

Can you clarify this, presume you're meaning less/reduced roll on, as opposed to rolling off?

sugilite

29th January 2010, 07:50

Can you clarify this, presume you're meaning less/reduced roll on, as opposed to rolling off?

I'm talking about once you are commited and 1/4 to 1/3 in the corner already, and you realise you need to make an alteration to the line you are already on, reducing the throttle from what it already is at that point, will put the bike on a tighter line.

I'll be away at the river fest in Levin for the weekend, so won't be back online till Monday. Have a great Weekend's riding folks :yes:

crazyhorse

29th January 2010, 08:36

I was taught that speed didn't always get you there faster, and the trick was to ride smooth lines and its a much nicer way to ride. And he was right.

Squiggles

29th January 2010, 10:37

I'm talking about once you are commited and 1/4 to 1/3 in the corner already, and you realise you need to make an alteration to the line you are already on, reducing the throttle from what it already is at that point, will put the bike on a tighter line.

I'll be away at the river fest in Levin for the weekend, so won't be back online till Monday. Have a great Weekend's riding folks :yes:

I'd argue that by backing off the throttle you're loading the front and losing stability, and that this will push you wider...

BMWST?

29th January 2010, 11:07

I'd argue that by backing off the throttle you're loading the front and losing stability, and that this will push you wider...

not if you are ridng within the envelope.i would envisage minimal alterations.Dont forget we are already riding with minimal throttle and brake application and within other parameters...ie lane width,available stopping distance,limits of visisbilty.The whole idea of smoothness means you arent gonna enter a corner going WAY to fast

Squiggles

29th January 2010, 11:12

not if you are ridng within the envelope.i would envisage minimal alterations.Dont forget we are already riding with minimal throttle and brake application and within other parameters...ie lane width,available stopping distance,limits of visisbilty.The whole idea of smoothness means you arent gonna enter a corner going WAY to fast

Is it smooth to be on and off the gas?... Even the slightest twitch off the gas tends to give that instability...

Edit: Should you find yourself going too fast (in your head at least), what will happen then?

BMWST?

29th January 2010, 11:22

Is it smooth to be on and off the gas?... Even the slightest twitch off the gas tends to give that instability...

Edit: Should you find yourself going too fast (in your head at least), what will happen then?

It isnt smooth to be on and off the gas,but we are human and sometimes we cant be quite as smooth as we would like .I dont envisage "chopping" the throttle just a delay in opening or from neutral to trailing.I had a couple of bikes that demanded to be ridden in this way,although it was (and is again) my style.xs 750 and k 100 demand(and r100 gs for that matter)(and reward) smooth inputs

retro asian

29th January 2010, 23:34

Good post. I agree, when you get into the "groove" of smooth riding it is very rewarding.

Also sometimes my cruiser doesn't turn in as tight as I'd like, so an additional help for me is smooth application of rear brake through the corner....and lots of throttle when I see that exit!

howdamnhard

29th January 2010, 23:45

Excellent post , I aim to be smooth whenever possible.

sugilite

1st February 2010, 12:15

I'd argue that by backing off the throttle you're loading the front and losing stability, and that this will push you wider...

I'm talking about reducing the throttle in a already very controlled and gentle scenario. Chopping the throttle will still not have the effect you are talking about at the speed/pace I'm talking about, unless your bikes forks are dangerously stuffed.

Is it smooth to be on and off the gas?... Even the slightest twitch off the gas tends to give that instability...

Edit: Should you find yourself going too fast (in your head at least), what will happen then?

Same as my above comment really. I do not envision people will need to chop or alter the throttle in every corner, it is just a useful tool to have in the kit bag should you need it. Again, the entry speeds are gentle and when learning this technique, large safety margins should be employed. Just common sense really. If a rider feels they are going into the corner faster than they feel comfortable, there is still plenty of time to brake.

I'm starting to wish I had a on board video to show practical examples.

BMWST comments are right on the button. :yes:

Smifffy

1st February 2010, 12:45

Is this what is meant by Lazy riding? It's the style of riding I'm into, and seems a lot more natural than carving up and down my gearbox, whilst "blipping" on the throttle.

:sunny:

yungatart

1st February 2010, 14:57

Thanks for this thread, Sugilite...I am a slow, super cautious rider and have developed some bad habits (as we do).
After reading this I had a few (very slow) laps at Manfield on Saturday, spent some time over the weekend digesting your thread, and had an awesome ride home laast night in the wet.
Smooth, steady, in control and relatively fast (for me!)...I'm still grinning!
Thanks...keep posting this stuff....it works!

MSTRS

1st February 2010, 15:57

Smooth, steady, in control and relatively fast (for me!)...I'm still grinning!

I can vouch for that. 200kms in varying degrees of wetness, on SH2, at a constant speed of 100-110kph (except where certain corners dictated otherwise). Little traffic meaning that cornering lines could be tailored to the conditions and road surface.
Smooth is gear/throttle control, as well as reading the conditions (read as 'possible threats') far enough ahead so that there are no surprises.

sugilite

1st February 2010, 19:16

Is this what is meant by Lazy riding? It's the style of riding I'm into, and seems a lot more natural than carving up and down my gearbox, whilst "blipping" on the throttle.

:sunny:

I'm not a fan of the word lazy, but yep, it is a nice relaxing style for sure. I'll be talking about throttle blipping in a later post/session. I may even say something controversial on the matter :lol:

Thanks for this thread, Sugilite...I am a slow, super cautious rider and have developed some bad habits (as we do).
After reading this I had a few (very slow) laps at Manfield on Saturday, spent some time over the weekend digesting your thread, and had an awesome ride home laast night in the wet.
Smooth, steady, in control and relatively fast (for me!)...I'm still grinning!
Thanks...keep posting this stuff....it works!

Cool, thanks for the feedback, nice to hear about progress being made :yes:

sugilite

1st February 2010, 23:40

Have moved the emergency braking post to it's own thread here...
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/118027-Practicing-Emergency-Braking?p=1129633267#post1129633267

I'll carry on with the smooth riding technique on this thread soon.

BikerDazz

9th February 2010, 18:09

I'll carry on with the smooth riding technique on this thread soon.[/QUOTE]

Hey, thanks for sharing this great info.

I do have a wee query - as I've been tooling around and trialling different techniques with cornering, I've tried sticking my left knee out when taking sharp left corners and it seems to me that this assists with holding my line tight; does this sound right to you and is it recommended or am I better to hug the tank with both knees and throttle off a little to hold the line? Or am I just confusing myself and totally off track?

Cheers in advance for the advice.

sugilite

9th February 2010, 19:41

Hey, thanks for sharing this great info.

I do have a wee query - as I've been tooling around and trialling different techniques with cornering, I've tried sticking my left knee out when taking sharp left corners and it seems to me that this assists with holding my line tight; does this sound right to you and is it recommended or am I better to hug the tank with both knees and throttle off a little to hold the line? Or am I just confusing myself and totally off track?

Cheers in advance for the advice.

Yes, sticking your knee out can indeed help you keep a tighter line, and yes I did note you mentioned on left handers!
It can be incorparated into the smooth style just fine :yes:

I'll prob write the next installment on smooth riding techniques tomorrow.

quickbuck

9th February 2010, 20:46

Nice thread sugilite. Great tips. I too, am sick of spending Race Budgets on consumables for my road bike through hard road riding..... Loving the 4.9l per 100k my 600 gets now!
Interestingly the rider of the Team Air Force ZXR400 (neil_cb125t) gets similar mileage out of his CBR600....

BikerDazz, yes, sticking your inside knee is a great technique, as this means you are actually putting weight on the outside peg, and feel free to put your outside knee into the tank....

Another step along from this is to gently slide your backside across the seat.

Now, we are getting a little further down the track from "Lazy" (Yup, misleading term) riding, but it is all about correct riding technique.

ckai

16th February 2010, 15:11

So when's the next instalment or have I missed something?

sugilite

16th February 2010, 23:11

Cheers, thanks for the prod.

Working with the bike

A lot of riders do the majority of steering using their arm strength alone. While being perfectly acceptable, it does take a fair bit of effort and that mounts up over a longer ride.
Another option is to use your body to help steer the bike, in particular your legs and feet can greatly add to sharing the steering load and giving you a greater number of force bearing contact points (hands, knees, feet) aiding in steering the bike. This spread of loading forces really helps smooth things out and the bike handles and responds better as a result.
An example of this would be, when initiating a left hand turn, the rider pushes against the left handle bar (counter steering - see note below) with their hand/arm, while simultaneously pushing down on the left footrest with their foot and pulling against the tank with their right knee. (assuming their bike type/ride position supports use of the knee). Now you don't need to go being a Rambo or Ramboette using this technique, all good things in moderation is one of the major secrets of smoooooth!

Note: The concept of counter steering is now becoming more widely known. The basics of counter steering is to initiate a left hand turn, one actually turns the handle bars slightly to the right causing the bike to lean to the left. Visa versa for right turns. It is a fairly natural process, so I won't be covering it in any real depth here.

Exercises I've used to speed up the learning process:
Fortunately there is a relatively quick way of learning how to use this technique.

Find a quiet and winding road with a series of corners that can be taken easily in say 3rd gear, being a hill would be a added bonus too. Once a suitable road has been found, scout it both directions checking for any hazards. Once you are satisfied the way is clear, take the bike up to third gear, then at a very gentle pace, take your hand off the left handle bar and navigate the road one handed at a pace you feel comfortable. Believe me doing this will force you to quickly start using your legs, feet and knees to help steer the bike. Once you get to the end of your road, turn around and do it again heading the other way, now repeat this process at least three times. At the completion of the third run, try the same piece of road using two hands running at a faster (but still safe) pace. You will very likely be blown away by how easy and effortless steering your bike has become now your using your whole body in synergy with the bike. Keep practicing the above until it becomes a natural process in your riding. When practicing, do not hesitate at all to put both hands on the bars at the slightest hint of a hazard or if your feeling uneasy with the situation.

The one other thing I will cover in this section is when navigating "S" bends,where your transferring your weight from one side of the bike to the other.
Using your whole body to steer will naturally have you on the balls of your feet when navigating twisties. So when you are banked over on one side and it is time to turn it to the opposite side, use your legs/feet to take the weight off your arse, personally I often use my legs/feet to lift my arse just off the seat by a centimeter or two. I find doing that really smooths out the whole transition process and the suspension will really thank you for it too.

As ever, anyone is free to post any info they feel is relevant to the thread. I'm also happy to attempt to answer any questions people may have regarding the above :yes:

R-Soul

17th February 2010, 14:27

R-Soul

17th February 2010, 14:53

The road to Piha at about 7am is a fanatstic road to do that on.

I initially tried clamping on hard with my knees, to allow me to relax my arms for smoother control.

But then I found that for a given corner at a given speed, and a given lean agle, you can move until youfeel feel when your body is in perfect balance with the bike, so that both your legs and arms will be relaxed, and balanced by the forces on you and the bike.

DangerMice

17th February 2010, 19:22

I find being smooth is really important on my scoot, it's all about conservation of momentum. Being CVT, if I have to suddenly get off the gas when I'm going a decent speed (for a scoot :)), the scoot stays in high "gear", but the engine revs drop right down, then when I reapply throttle, the scoot really bogs down as the engine tries to re-accelerate but finds it difficult as I'm in a high 'gear'. Obviously I can't just drop it down a gear, so left I'm doing 30-40 kph and accelerating *really* slowly, not ideal in traffic.

So, looking & planning ahead, being smooth on the throttle avoids a lot of that.

GOONR

17th February 2010, 21:11

quickbuck

17th February 2010, 21:56

sugilite

18th February 2010, 09:04

I now realise that I had become ridged and was sat on top of the bike rather than working with it (if that makes sense to anyone.. bah, I know what I'm on about).

Cheers!

Yes, that does make sense, just the fact you understand that now and are working to change, shows your on to it! Well done :yes:
And as Quickbuck mentions, conciously turn your head to look around/through the corner, it really helps on a lot of levels.

R-Soul

18th February 2010, 09:24

This must be the best thread I have seen for ages. Nice one.

My cornering sucks ass big time, I'm a new (6 months) rider and I've had the backend skip out twice on corners, both times at about 80kph (or slightly less) on a 80kph stretch of road. Needless to say it's knocked my confidence a fair bit and it's taking me ages to get my head back in to the swing of it. What you have said about using more of your body to control the cornering makes sense, I now realise that I had become ridged and was sat on top of the bike rather than working with it (if that makes sense to anyone.. bah, I know what I'm on about).

Cheers!

If your back end is skipping out, it sounds like you were either going too fast, the bike's suyspension is badly set up, or the bike's suspension was at a bad angle (i.e. too much lean) and could not keep the wheel on the road. It might help to get your body over to the side (lots) more, and keep the bike more upright (at the angle its suspension was designed for and is best at).

That is 90%t of the fun- moving your body from side to side, and predicting the line, lean angle and body positioning for each corner at a given speed - for a nicely balanced entry and exit.

GOONR

18th February 2010, 09:27

Makes perfect sense....
You were operating the controls, rather than riding the bike.

The back end skipping... Were you closing the throttle mid corner or something? Or too much rear brake??

You should have finished all your braking, and have the smallest amount of gas on while cornering....
Yes, and move your body around the bike.

ALSO, turn your HEAD and keep your eyes LEVEL!!!!

To be honest I'm not sure what I did wrong when it skipped out, I would guess that my grip was too tight on the throttle and I've ended up backing off slightly.

Yup, I'm a cautious rider by nature so I tend to get all my braking out of the way well before the corner. what I wasn't doing was shifting my weight around on the bike. The few rides I have done since reading this I have been transferring my weight around and the bike feels much more planted.

GOONR

18th February 2010, 09:38

If your back end is skipping out, it sounds like you were either going too fast, the bike's suyspension is badly set up, or the bike's suspension was at a bad angle (i.e. too much lean) and could not keep the wheel on the road. It might help to get your body over to the side (lots) more, and keep the bike more upright (at the angle its suspension was designed for and is best at).

That is 90%t of the fun- moving your body from side to side, and predicting the line, lean angle and body positioning for each corner at a given speed - for a nicely balanced entry and exit.

haha, you could definitely rule out the first one, I'm the slowest thing on two wheels.

MSTRS

18th February 2010, 09:39

Where you are looking makes a huge difference too. Always look where you want to go (because you tend tol go where you are looking). Your peripheral vision should be employed to keep watch for issues that may arise along the way, which you can then focus on briefly, before deciding, or how, to react to them. One of the biggest problems, and reason for 'jerky' riding, is not looking far enough in front.

GOONR

18th February 2010, 09:49

Stirts

18th February 2010, 15:10

This must be the best thread I have seen for ages. Nice one. Cheers!

Oh hell yes!!!

Riding the 'new to me" Speed Triple, I have been struggling of late. Getting more and more frustrated and less and less confident in my ability to ride. In fact I was starting to question whether I made the right decision moving up to the massive awesomeness of the Speed Triple.

But a very kind individual pointed me to this thread. Sugilite your posts have now got me focused again, my riding and confidence levels are improved. I thank you for taking the time to post these.

OK that is my soppy post of the year. As you were.

Maha

18th February 2010, 15:13

Oh hell yes!!!

Riding the 'new to me" Speed Triple, I have been struggling of late. Getting more and more frustrated and less and less confident in my ability to ride. In fact I was starting to question whether I made the right decision moving up to the massive awesomeness of the Speed Triple.

But a very kind individual pointed me to this thread. Sugilite your posts have now got me focused again, my riding and confidence levels are improved. I thank you for taking the time to post these.

Soon you'll be able to pillion lanky man.

Stirts

18th February 2010, 15:15

Soon you'll be able to pillion lanky man.

:nono: He is bad enough as a passenger in the car. He would be trying to ride the damn thing from behind. Ooooer :blip:

Maha

18th February 2010, 15:28

:nono: He is bad enough as a passenger in the car. He would be trying to ride the damn thing from behind. Ooooer :blip:

That is his Forte' yes?....;)

R-Soul

18th February 2010, 15:29

Yeah, I do look where I want to go. Even if I'm turning right at a small roundabout.. though that still feels weird though.

But its more than just looking where you want to go - in a corner, you should look at the "vanishing point" - where the center of the road appears to meet the left edge of the road. That means looking as far into the corner as you can.

The reason for this is because, if you look a little bit ahead, you cannot judge your full line around the corner well. Instead you judge it for a short distance and then end up changing it several times in that corner. So you go around the corner making a path (when you look from above) looking more like an octagon than a circle.

The small changes in direction on the corner edges of the "octagon" create additional outward forces on the bike, and hence traction problems. A smaller radius turning circle creates increased inertia in a corner for the same speed. By keeping your turning radius as large as possible throughout the corner without adjusting it too often, you have a smoother corner and less traction problems.

Combine thsi with rolling smoothly on and off the power, and hanging your body weight off teh side too keep your bike as upright as possible, and your taction problems should be reduced. If not, then perhaps you should think about changting your suspension setup? maybe your shocks are shot?

sugilite

22nd February 2010, 19:39

This must be the best thread I have seen for ages. Nice one.

But a very kind individual pointed me to this thread. Sugilite your posts have now got me focused again, my riding and confidence levels are improved. I thank you for taking the time to post these.

Thanks for that, glad to be of service. I guess one of the hardest parts for me, was to actually put into words what I've been doing automatically for many years, and to do it with a minimum of techno babble :lol: As I've experimented and learned these methods, I've then adapted the approved methods and simply practiced them until I no longer had to "think" about them.

I had 3 styles for bikes (not counting dirt bike styles), race, road and pillion. The smooooth style is pretty much my pillion style, I always ride for my pillion. Now I've retired my old road style, and replaced it with pillion, erm only without the pillion now hehe.

Anyways, my next blurb will be gear changes me thinks.

sugilite

22nd February 2010, 19:39

DidJit

23rd February 2010, 11:17

It's all about Smooooooth...

This is what the big boys tell me time & time again. And they're right. The more time I spend in the saddle, the more it sinks in, the more it makes sense, the more it happens.

Thanks for sharing with us. As a n00bie (about 10 months now), I really appreciate the tips, tricks and advice that the more experienced riders share with me.

But its more than just looking where you want to go - in a corner, you should look at the "vanishing point"...

...Combine this with rolling smoothly on and off the power, and hanging your body weight off the side too keep your bike as upright as possible, and your traction problems should be reduced.

That post there is right on the money! Once I figured this out, my cornering started to improve and got a lot better (than it had been). Before I started doing this, I just couldn't work out how everyone was getting around the corners so much faster and easier (read smoother), and I knew it wasn't just a case of bigger bike, better tyres etc.; I knew there was a technique that I wasn't employing yet, and it took me quite a while before I stumbled on it.

So, again, to all the more experienced riders sharing their tips with us n00bs, we really appreciate it!

svr

23rd February 2010, 12:15

Interesting how little riders talk about riding skills, when this is a far more important topic than brand of bike / tires etc...
Smooth is definitely important - and becomes more important nearing the limit of adhesion.
One technique that I use that people might want to try is when trying to scrub a little speed in left handers is to keep on a little throttle and drag the rear brake. Bikes handle better on the gas and this will tighten its line nicely.
Anything to stop so many riders crossing the centreline on left handers is worth some practice.

SuperMac

27th November 2012, 00:00

Exercises I've used to speed up the learning process:
1. Since the key of the process is arriving at the corner at a perfect speed, I made up a game for myself, consisting of when approaching an object be it a corner, or catching up to traffic in front...what ever..I would roll off the throttle early, if I had to brake when approaching a corner or a line of traffic, I'd "lose points". Now for goodness sake set a large safety margin!!! I'm not suggesting for a moment, that should you need to brake, that you leave it late. You would be a total Dork or Dorkett if you rear ended a car while trying to "win" your game now wouldn't you?

I've probably posted this link before, but it compliments the content of this thread :) :banana:

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.co.uk/p/diy-advanced-rider-training.html

SuperMac

27th November 2012, 00:02

But its more than just looking where you want to go - in a corner, you should look at the "vanishing point" - where the center of the road appears to meet the left edge of the road.

Be wary, though.

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.co.uk/2008/09/corners-cornering-safe.html

Many of you will be familiar with using the 'limit point' (or 'limit of visibility', or 'vanishing point', chose your preferred term) to help with bend assessment and chossing a safe cornering speed.

However, it's easy on left hand bends to be over-confident and over-estimate your braking distance when cornering.

Take care with 'how' you judge your forward distance on lefts.

Temptation for a lot of people is to look at the far kerb - ie the oncoming lane - you have to use the centre line as the limit of available tarmac.

But even then, if the view of the left side of the road is obscured, your true 'limit' is the left verge, as anything emerging from beyond where you can see will immediately - and profoundly - shorten your stopping distance (especially if it moves across the lane in front of you).

Clear road surface is the key factor when deciding how fast to commit.

Another principle in play here is that you must have your 'escape' plans ready before you enter the turn - if you're driving on the limits of view then you can't afford to spend extra time (and so distance) pondering options.

More

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.co.uk/p/cornering.html

kiwifruit

27th November 2012, 21:09

Th

Anyways, my next blurb will be gear changes me thinks.

Video blurb!

Berries

27th November 2012, 22:34

I've probably posted this link before, but it compliments the content of this thread :)
You have, but nice dredge anyway.

SNF

28th November 2012, 16:28

I'm really glad I found this post. It makes sense of everything I have read/been told about. As I have been riding for all of 12 days, I need all the help I can get.

sugilite

6th December 2012, 13:01

Video blurb!

Calling Mr Fruit! (since you maxed out your pm box!)

I've been thinking bout doing just that since I went for one particular ride a few months ago and encountered just about every hazzard known to motorcyclists! I was thinking bout how cool it would of been to have a video of that ride and turn it into a safety movie. As a hazard approches, play a little animation (I'll talk to my son, he a 3d animator) of a bike crashing with a large caption saying along the lines of "That shit gunna fuck you up". then replay the scene pointing out the 1st tell tale signs of the hazzard to look for and a way/s of dealing with it. Stuff it on youtube or somthing. I have a DSLR I can capture road side shots from, and a high def cam recorder, but no on bike camera, and no budget to buy one :rolleyes: Any thoughts on this possible project?

kiwifruit

6th December 2012, 13:06

Calling Mr Fruit! (since you maxed out your pm box!)

I've been thinking bout doing just that since I went for one particular ride a few months ago and encountered just about every hazzard known to motorcyclists! I was thinking bout how cool it would of been to have a video of that ride and turn it into a safety movie. As a hazard approches, play a little animation (I'll talk to my son, he a 3d animator) of a bike crashing with a large caption saying along the lines of "That shit gunna fuck you up". then replay the scene pointing out the 1st tell tale signs of the hazzard to look for and a way/s of dealing with it. Stuff it on youtube or somthing. I have a DSLR I can capture road side shots from, and a high def cam recorder, but no on bike camera, and no budget to buy one :rolleyes: Any thoughts on this possible project?

Kia ora!

My inbox has been full for some years, you can always email me on allan@photorecall.co.nz

I think you'd have a nice way of doing the videos. You can borrow my drift 170HD camera for the on bike stuff :yes: