Haiti - A disaster in waiting?

[Winston001]

The tragic earthquake in Haiti continues to take it's toll. The lack of infrastructure and any organised civil defence structure is brought home to us nightly on television. I can't imagine what it is like for these people.

So, with some misgiving, I have to wonder how such a disaster could have been reduced in scale and effect.

Haiti is an island nation with a land area 1/10th that of New Zealand. Within that area live more than 9 million people. In abject poverty.

What the heck are 9 million people doing trying to squeeze out an existence there? Its impossible. Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere.

Maybe - just maybe, we need to start talking and doing something about world overpopulation.

[Mully]

Woo, this thread should take off


Maybe - just maybe, we need to start talking and doing something about world overpopulation.

What did you have in mind?

[JimO]

The tragic earthquake in Haiti continues to take it's toll. The lack of infrastructure and any organised civil defence structure is brought home to us nightly on television. I can't imagine what it is like for these people.

So, with some misgiving, I have to wonder how such a disaster could have been reduced in scale and effect.

Haiti is an island nation with a land area 1/10th that of New Zealand. Within that area live more than 9 million people. In abject poverty.

What the heck are 9 million people doing trying to squeeze out an existence there? Its impossible. Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere.

Maybe - just maybe, we need to start talking and doing something about world overpopulation.

what can we do about it, from what i see poverty breeds children if i was dictator of the world i would have all poor people sterilised, and all bad/violent people killed- like most of our maori population

[mashman]

Maybe - just maybe, we need to start talking and doing something about world overpopulation.

You need to do 1 crucial thing before that though. Don't you?

[Okey Dokey]

Overpopulation is THE issue to me, too. No, you don't address it through eugenics and mass sterlization- sorry, I know it is tempting looking at the stats. Education and access to contraception for women, and the issue resolves itself quite often.

That terrorist, GW Bush sabotaged a lot of good work in this area with his fundamentalist Christian crap.

[Winston001]

what can we do about it, from what i see poverty breeds children if i was dictator of the world i would have all poor people sterilised, and all bad/violent people killed- like most of our maori population

It is a complex and delicate problem. The primal drive to have children is about as fundamental as you can get. Talking about population control is too sensitive at the political level, yet we condemn millions of children to starvation and disease by pretending not to notice they are born.

What can we do? Individually we can talk about it to other people and spread ideas. Nationally and at the UN level, how about tying aid to a requirement that nations work on population control. Admittedly that's damned hard when people are dying at your feet.

[paturoa]

I watched that re-run doco / film last week about a big quake in Welly. Can't help but think we be severly "rogered" with a big-un in one of our main cities too.

[Big Dan]

Hi All

please read this group i've started and my plan for this weekend

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#/group.php?gid=311923079837


Thanks all
Big dan

[Winston001]

I watched that re-run doco / film last week about a big quake in Welly. Can't help but think we be severly "rogered" with a big-un in one of our main cities too.

Ah - nothing, absolutely nothing like what is happening in Haiti. My wife is involved in Civil Defence and there are whole systems in place in NZ for exactly this type of disaster. In Haiti there is no organisation to cope.

[Maha]

Woo, this thread should take off
What did you have in mind?

Didnt the Haitians discover AIDS ?
So they have done thier part.

[peasea]

Overpopulation is THE issue to me, too. No, you don't address it through eugenics and mass sterlization- sorry, I know it is tempting looking at the stats. Education and access to contraception for women, and the issue resolves itself quite often.

That terrorist, GW Bush sabotaged a lot of good work in this area with his fundamentalist Christian crap.

Like this you mean?

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[JimO]

the people over there need the food thats stacked up in the warehouses not some guy in NZ having a few hrs without tucker

[peasea]

It is a complex and delicate problem.

No it isn't. Get masturbating, problem solved.

OR! Shoot all the religious nutters, darkies, asians, indians, spiks, dagos, wops, (notice I didn't use the word 'gook'?) and door to door sales people, used car sales people and tele marketers.

Job done.

[Dave Lobster]

Is Haiti run by black people, just out of interest?

[peasea]

the people over there need the food thats stacked up in the warehouses not some guy in NZ having a few hrs without tucker

Must spread rep...............

[Maha]

Is Haiti run by black people, just out of interest?

No, the black people are running..........out of Haiti.

[peasea]

Hi All

please read this group i've started and my plan for this weekend

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#/group.php?gid=311923079837


Thanks all
Big dan

Well that's doing less than fuck all in my humble opinion.
Why not walk everywhere for a week and donate the money saved?
Or better still, steal something from a rich neighbour and flog it on TradeMe, then donate the cash.

[peasea]

Is Haiti run by black people, just out of interest?

I thought their leader was a little Oriental gentleman.

[Dave Lobster]

I thought their leader was a little Oriental gentleman.

Could well be.. I switch the TV over whenever some more welfare case types come on.

[Hitcher]

Haiti is only a "disaster" because it has only been "discovered" by the western news media and hoardes of celebrities who want to increase their cache.

Arguably this earthquake is only a bit of a bump in the road given that nation's chequered history. All of this aid that's currently pouring in will only do so until the penny drops and aid agencies realise that they're wasting their time. "Rebuilding" a country of this type is pointless. It has no history of "proper" government nor supporting infrastructure such as an effective police force. You can't air drop that in.

Earthquakes aside, between the annual hurricane season, conditions for your average Haitian are dire. It's easy to forget about nations like this rather than lining the pockets of a small but corrupt bourgeoisie with foreign aid and condemning the average citizen to a life of subsistance farming.

Give it a month and there will be no more heard of this tragedy.

[Mully]

Give it a month and there will be no more heard of this tragedy.

Indeed - unlike November the 9th (9/11 (tm) for the slow), which was rammed onto the media for months and continues to be every September, cf the Boxing Day tsunami which is barely mentioned and killed many times more people

Course, that was Merkins - not people from some nasty dirty country.

The average American life is worth 15 Europeans, 100 Africans or South Americans and 350 Asians - well that was at the closing of the markets tonight.

[Kickaha]

. It has no history of "proper" government

Bring back the Duvaliers:cool:

On January 16, 2010, Duvalier announced that he would ask a foundation set up in the name of his mother to transfer an estimated US$8 million of its assets to the American Red Cross in light of the 2010 Haiti earthquake

What a nice family to make such a gesture:shutup:

[Dadpole]

Bring back the Duvaliers:cool:
On January 16, 2010, Duvalier announced that he would ask a foundation set up in the name of his mother to transfer an estimated US$8 million of its assets to the American Red Cross in light of the 2010 Haiti earthquake
What a nice family to make such a gesture:shutup:

:rofl:.......

[pete376403]

Haiti is one of the places where that fine US corporation Disney gets its merchandise made. Disney needs places like this to be overpopulated so the labour costs can be beaten right down to almost nothing.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/294.html

[Dave Lobster]

The average American life is worth 15 Europeans, 100 Africans or South Americans and 350 Asians - well that was at the closing of the markets tonight.

Are you just using their weight to make this comparison??

[Big Dan]

Well that's doing less than fuck all in my humble opinion.
Why not walk everywhere for a week and donate the money saved?
Or better still, steal something from a rich neighbour and flog it on TradeMe, then donate the cash.

The following also applies to Cowpoos who commented on the group

Yes sure it not raising money
Poos you say i should get out and walk to raise money. can i ask what your doing to raise the awareness of the plight these poor people are facing. Some people might say that i'm not helping and doing "less than fuck all" then i ask what YOU are doing. I ask you this if i can't afford to help with money who am i to ask others to give there hard earned money when i haven't, kinda sounds hipa-critical don't you think. In the group i've pointed others to the right place should they want to donate.

I WILL NOT steal anything from the neighbour that will only just make me worse than the looters in Haiti

[Mikkel]

Haiti is an island nation with a land area 1/10th that of New Zealand. Within that area live more than 9 million people. In abject poverty.

What the heck are 9 million people doing trying to squeeze out an existence there? Its impossible. Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere.

Maybe - just maybe, we need to start talking and doing something about world overpopulation.

Hmmm, Haiti is only the 30th most densely populated country. There are many rich countries above it on that list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density). So what exactly do you mean when you say it's impossible for 9 million people to squeeze out a living there?


Bring back the Duvaliers:cool:

On January 16, 2010, Duvalier announced that he would ask a foundation set up in the name of his mother to transfer an estimated US$8 million of its assets to the American Red Cross in light of the 2010 Haiti earthquake

What a nice family to make such a gesture:shutup:

The nerve of some people eh. Papa Doc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papa_Doc) was a true visionary - or is that hallucionist?

[mashman]

What can we do? Individually we can talk about it to other people and spread ideas. Nationally and at the UN level, how about tying aid to a requirement that nations work on population control. Admittedly that's damned hard when people are dying at your feet.

and could potentially end up with the UN placing an embargo on those countries that really need the assistance? Not ideal if that's the case, like you say, people dying at your feet whilst the world watches ain't a vote winner! You need a fundamental shift in global conciousness to "introduce" any form of population control. At the moment, i wouldn't have thought that the Haitians are going to be open to the idea of having their nuts chopped off for a can of spam, 2l of Evian and a the promise of a nice cup of tea!

[Winston001]

Hmmm, Haiti is only the 30th most densely populated country. There are many rich countries above it on that list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density). So what exactly do you mean when you say it's impossible for 9 million people to squeeze out a living there?



By golly you are right. I'm surprised. Interesting to note that the Dominican Republic, which comprises the other half of the island Haiti occupies, has half the population density.

My point? Most of the worlds poor live in densely populated nations with little chance to advance their living conditions. One of the conundrums of wealth is that rich people have fewer children. One postulated answer to overpopulation is education and increased wealth for the Third World. Unfortunately IMHO, birth rates will continue to outstrip family attempts to join the middle class. It is happening in India and China but not in Africa, Pakistan etc.

For example, 20 years ago Ethiopia experienced a dreadful famine. The population was 40 million. Today Ethiopia has another famine but the population is 80 million. Why do we stand by and watch millions born into misery?

[Mully]

and could potentially end up with the UN placing an embargo on those countries that really need the assistance? !

Oh Noes!! Not teh UN.

Did you see those idiots on the news the other night? Started unpacking a truckload worth of food, got worried about there being "too many" starving people and that causing a riot, so they re-loaded the truck and took the food back to the warehouse. Which left the starving people rioting over the couple of boxes that got left behind.

Useless.

[mashman]

Oh Noes!! Not teh UN.

Did you see those idiots on the news the other night? Started unpacking a truckload worth of food, got worried about there being "too many" starving people and that causing a riot, so they re-loaded the truck and took the food back to the warehouse. Which left the starving people rioting over the couple of boxes that got left behind.

Useless.

I've been to a few UN meetings before... didn't really pay too much attention, but the bits i did pick up on where all the politically sensitive points... In one case it was so fuckin trivial that I added my 0.02 to the discussion we were having on the way back to the digs (just driving my aid agency leader). Whether or not i believe this, i'd like to think it's true, but at the next meeting she made an official proposal to the UN to adopt "my" idea... it was accepted by all parties and over the next 2 days, the bridge once again became a peaceful place and people started to get their prefab houses built. That was 2 fuckin days after a discussion that had been going on for over 3 weeks, done, agreed, WTF! Now my idea wasn't exactly a nobel peace prize worthy effort, but none of the "thinkers" around the table UN Mgt/Aid Agency Leaders/Politicial representatives from both warring parties, could come up with anything that would appease the "powers" involved. Anyhoo, i spent the next couple of weeks building the prefabs, without question the most eye opening time of my life... a family of 11, living in a cowshed 2 miles off the main road (took us an hour and a half to get the lorries to their place), animal blood streaming down the ice in preparation for dinner, a man, a wife, his 2 sisters and the 7 kids between them, kids barefoot running around and playing like it was any other normal day (i got to give them teddies and welly boots (felt like a complete and utter fraud considering the gratitude that they oozed))... and that was the first family we went to build for... honestly horrendous to see the fallout that warring countries produce...

Anyway, trip down memory lane over... That thing on the box the other night was utterly disgusting to watch. I can understand why the did it, to a certain extent, but the people where there, in need, right there, fingers on the food... and what a stupid thing to do... drive away... I WON'T think about those that only had a day left in them!

[Mully]

Anyway, we shouldn't be Haiting.

At the least, we should Hait the game, not the playa.

(sorry, couldn't resist)

[peasea]

The following also applies to Cowpoos who commented on the group

Yes sure it not raising money
Poos you say i should get out and walk to raise money. can i ask what your doing to raise the awareness of the plight these poor people are facing. Some people might say that i'm not helping and doing "less than fuck all" then i ask what YOU are doing. I ask you this if i can't afford to help with money who am i to ask others to give there hard earned money when i haven't, kinda sounds hipa-critical don't you think. In the group i've pointed others to the right place should they want to donate.

I WILL NOT steal anything from the neighbour that will only just make me worse than the looters in Haiti

You really don't understand black comedy do you? (And that was even worse.)

Tell you what; I won't have a beer tonight and call THAT my contribution. Fair?

[Dave Lobster]

You really don't understand black comedy do you? (And that was even worse.)

Tell you what; I won't have a beer tonight and call THAT my contribution. Fair?

HA!! I'll have an extra one, and your charity will be wasted :) :) :)

[peasea]

HA!! I'll have an extra one, and your charity will be wasted :) :) :)

Oh well, might as well not bother then; now I'm off to the 4sq for a six pack, screw this generosity lark.

[avgas]

when is wellington falling into the ocean again?

[mashman]

when is wellington falling into the ocean again?

hopefully after i've had my afternoon dump... i don't wanna be found dead with my kex at my ankles and a half formed turd peeking from the jaws of the mighty chocolate starfish.... that and i don't have my swimming shorts either...

[Winston001]

Did you see those idiots on the news the other night? Started unpacking a truckload worth of food, got worried about there being "too many" starving people and that causing a riot, so they re-loaded the truck and took the food back to the warehouse. Which left the starving people rioting over the couple of boxes that got left behind.



What do you suggest the UN people do? Toss everything out on the ground? Let the big guys grab it?

In desperate situations the only way food distribution works are if armed soldiers control it. Last night I saw they were picking out women and the elderly for food because otherwise they were pushed to the back and got nothing.

[mashman]

What do you suggest the UN people do? Toss everything out on the ground? Let the big guys grab it?

In desperate situations the only way food distribution works are if armed soldiers control it. Last night I saw they were picking out women and the elderly for food because otherwise they were pushed to the back and got nothing.

I expect the UN to be prepared for the situation that they're about to walk/drive in to. I mean, who the fuck turns up with trucks of food, only to bottle it because the bullies might get the food. As soon as you turn your back the bullies will get the food!!! I certainly wouldn't have expected them to turn tail and run because the big guys (who might have a family to feed too) might take the food...

Not saying i have a better suggestion, although I reckon, on current evidence, i could do a damned site better job than the UN are at the moment.

[Maha]

Years ago there was a news report out of Joe/berg? Saweto? SA, must have been a quiet day because they showed children scrambling into a rubbish Bin.
They reported 'this is how the local children survive, taking any waste food (waste food?? WTF?) they can find from the many Rubbish Bins on the streets''

Turns out, that the TV Crew had thrown a few coins into the Bin first then started filming.

[Mully]

What do you suggest the UN people do? Toss everything out on the ground? Let the big guys grab it?

Well...


I expect the UN to be prepared for the situation that they're about to walk/drive in to. I mean, who the fuck turns up with trucks of food, only to bottle it because the bullies might get the food. As soon as you turn your back the bullies will get the food!!! I certainly wouldn't have expected them to turn tail and run because the big guys (who might have a family to feed too) might take the food...

that, mainly.

[Winston001]

I expect the UN to be prepared for the situation that they're about to walk/drive in to. I mean, who the fuck turns up with trucks of food, only to bottle it because the bullies might get the food. As soon as you turn your back the bullies will get the food!!! I certainly wouldn't have expected them to turn tail and run because the big guys (who might have a family to feed too) might take the food...


Everyone is a critic......

Civil disasters like earthquakes and tsunamis don't happen on a schedule. They are unexpected, sudden, and devastating. So the response with supplies of aid is equally uncertain. Food may arrive before soldiers, areas of greatest need have to be guessed at, roads are impassable, frankly I wouldn't expect any UN person to die trying to help.

However if the UN just wait until everything is perfect you and I are going to be asking what the delay was for? Can't win.

And tell me, where was the Dominican Republic Army? The Cuban Army? They could have been maintaining law and order and supporting the UN instead of waiting for the US to do everything.

[98tls]

It is a complex and delicate problem. The primal drive to have children is about as fundamental as you can get. Talking about population control is too sensitive at the political level, yet we condemn millions of children to starvation and disease by pretending not to notice they are born.

What can we do? Individually we can talk about it to other people and spread ideas. Nationally and at the UN level, how about tying aid to a requirement that nations work on population control. Admittedly that's damned hard when people are dying at your feet.

Not that complex really or is personal responsibility only applicable in so called developed countries?admittedly being poor probably means shagging is the best bang for your buck but when will they work out that the pain of watching your child starve to death is easily avoided by not having them.Surely feeding your child is just as primal a drive as having one.

[Dave Lobster]

Surely feeding your child is just as primal a drive as having one.

Not if you have squirrels in your head instead of brains. The "we'll just have another one instead" mentally takes over. Look at how many people have a billion children here - that end up in gangs/prison/etc. rather than having one or two that they can give full attention/nutritious meals to.

[98tls]

Not if you have squirrels in your head instead of brains. The "we'll just have another one instead" mentally takes over. Look at how many people have a billion children here - that end up in gangs/prison/etc. rather than having one or two that they can give full attention/nutritious meals to.
Yea but our lot know that they will get a slice of my hard earned to help them out with filling the pokie machines/pissing it up all day and all the other necessities for raising there future welfare cases.Over yonder theve only got a goat to rely on.

[Genie]

well shit....dont' just look there, there are so many fucked up countires in the world....I'm of the thinking, be grateful for where you are born and make the most of it. There's a saying, there by the Grace of God am I....well something like that.
Count your blessings and if you are in the postion to help others less fortunate than yourself, then do so.

[Dave Lobster]

Over yonder theve only got a goat to rely on.

Goats, you say?

They sound like ideal candidates to be signed up to a religion :)

[98tls]

Goats, you say?

They sound like ideal candidates to be signed up to a religion :)

That aside they may well be better off shagging there goats instead of the Mrs.

[Hitcher]

Just hope we never get a major disaster here or John Travolta will be turning up with a plane load of Scientologist "ministers". I hope the Haitians eat them.

[Mikkel]

My point? Most of the worlds poor live in densely populated nations with little chance to advance their living conditions. One of the conundrums of wealth is that rich people have fewer children. One postulated answer to overpopulation is education and increased wealth for the Third World. Unfortunately IMHO, birth rates will continue to outstrip family attempts to join the middle class. It is happening in India and China but not in Africa, Pakistan etc.

Yes, it is indeed a problem. But part of the problem is that these countries haven't been allowed to develop spontaneously, instead there's a significant external political pressure for them to adhere to certain humanitarian guidelines. There's also a considerable influx of technology that the maturity of the society is not necessarily ready for. It is extremely complicated and I wouldn't have a first clue about what to do. I mean for starters, are aid programs a benefit or a hindrance to the 3rd world countries. Obviously there will be people that will benefit from it right now and here, but 50 years down the track, would them having to fend for themselves propel a more positive development?


For example, 20 years ago Ethiopia experienced a dreadful famine. The population was 40 million. Today Ethiopia has another famine but the population is 80 million. Why do we stand by and watch millions born into misery?

Because the humanitarian implications of preventing millions from being born into misery are pretty nasty.

[Winston001]

Because the humanitarian implications of preventing millions from being born into misery are pretty nasty.

Aye and there's the rub. It's perceived as more nasty to say - "Hey, you guys must lower your birth rate" than to say nothing and watch the next generation die of starvation. Of course the reality of such a policy has to be more than words and thats where it gets tricky. Free contraceptive pills for all women? Tax families with more than 1 child (the Chinese approach)? Chemicals in the water? How about bombarding a country with gamma rays?

Still if nations do not grasp the nettle then we are going to see more wars, famine, and pestilence. We are lucky - unless the Indonesians work out ways of getting refugee boats to here......

[Mikkel]

Aye and there's the rub. It's perceived as more nasty to say - "Hey, you guys must lower your birth rate" than to say nothing and watch the next generation die of starvation. Of course the reality of such a policy has to be more than words and thats where it gets tricky. Free contraceptive pills for all women? Tax families with more than 1 child (the Chinese approach)? Chemicals in the water? How about bombarding a country with gamma rays?

...or, and excuse my cynicism, you could send aid monies that they could use to buy weapons for their civil wars and take out two birds with one stone: you'll be perceived as humanitarian all while you are funding the arms manufacturers. Or something in a similar vein. Won't prevent them from being born into misery, but it'll shorten the mean time spent in misery and thereby increasing the overall quality of life, or ... how does this work again? :scratch:

[mashman]

Everyone is a critic......

Civil disasters like earthquakes and tsunamis don't happen on a schedule. They are unexpected, sudden, and devastating. So the response with supplies of aid is equally uncertain. Food may arrive before soldiers, areas of greatest need have to be guessed at, roads are impassable, frankly I wouldn't expect any UN person to die trying to help.

However if the UN just wait until everything is perfect you and I are going to be asking what the delay was for? Can't win.


ha ha ha... sorry, wasn't necessarily disagreeing with what you said, moreover that you think these guys would be able to break out a disaster plan... something along the lines of...

Find out where people are grouping together, find out how many.
If possible cordon off an area to funnel the people through, ya know, thin them out a little (bad choice of words perhaps) so there isn't so much hussle and bussle.
Pass the food on as people walk through.

Now i fully understand that the logistics of shipping aid and support to another part of the world is a nightmare, but it doesn't help that when it gets there you turn around and fuck off because someone didn't bank on people being hungry, needy, whatever you like!!! I'll not touch the "can't win" with a barge pole!

We never send enough resources to places having just suffered disasters anyway... unfortunately that comes down to money... waiting for someone to sign on the dotted line... that's more often than not the killer, not having enough trained people also. And, if it's such an attrocity, why don't airlines offer their planes/pilots/crew, free for 2 days to ship as many aid workers/engineers etc... as possible to the area affected? Why aren't the armies of the world dropping food like it's going out of fashion, irrespective of who gets it? Why does financial assistance always have to be subject to handling fees etc... money! I have a dream!!!

[Swoop]

when is wellington falling into the ocean again?
Not falling into the ocean... the water will come to them. A decent earthquake will take out the dam, then the water flows down the nice valley. Luckily the beehive sits at the bottom of the valley!
Best of all is that in the basement of the beehive is the Civil Defence centre!!!
Mr Darwin is on a hat-trick with this one!

Turns out, that the TV Crew had thrown a few coins into the Bin first then started filming.
That sounds like the sort of shit the NZ Herald would do...

[Jantar]

....Maybe - just maybe, we need to start talking and doing something about world overpopulation.
No need. Nature is doing it for us. In this case via an earthquake.