Constellation cancelled = UberEpic Fail. Yes orbo?

[Ixion]

In another place , at another time, another me is currently engaged in a mega debate about the cancellation of the Constellation project (which as you all know is the NASA project to return men to the moon - well you would know if you came out from under your rock).

The other place is predominantly populated by quite young people (say, under 30). Who are not bikers . The debate is at present vigorous (think WINJA vs Spudchucka vigorous), primarily based around two diametric axes.

One, represented by other me, is that Mr Obama cancelling Constellation should be regarded as an act of treason against the human race. And that. rather than cancelling it, it should be extended to encompass manned flight to the stars ( a number of promising Earth like planets having now been identified - and the only way to find out about them is to go and look). With a side argument that young people nowadays have become apathetic, materialistic, and totally lacking in imagination.

The other, represented by most others is that space travel is irrelevant, that we (meaning primarily the USA, but generally, humankind) cannot afford it, and that such ideas are impractical and (quote from one young man) "there is no need to do it so why bother" and that mr Obama should be congratulated on "being sensible".

Now, these sad young people are not bikers.

So, I have bethought myself to sound the sentiment of bikers on the matter, they being (as we all know) not merely the most intelligent of mortalkind, but also the most willing to extend the grace of greatness to the human capacity to dream

What say you? Is cancellation of Constellation a betrayal of the spirit that has raised mankind from the brute creation? Or is it a sensible reining in of a project that was awaste of money seeking to achieve results that were both meaningless and unnecessary.

(Oh, and I guess, are young people today , compared with thei elders - say those over 50 - lacking in imagination, fixated on money and overly materialistic ? Though i think all of those already proven)

Let the biker-mind speak.

[steve_t]

I'll probably get flamed but I'm a moon landing conspiracy theorist:gob:
So going "back" to the moon....

See my comments in the homeopathy thread :innocent:

I'm all for venturing into the unknown to discover new things but also see the value in dedicating limited resources towards making the world we have a better one.

I agree with your suggestion that successive generations are becoming more "me me me, now now now". I can see the older folk wanting to advance all of mankind but the younger folk thinking "this doesn't and probably won't have any bearing on my life so why should I care?"

[slofox]

Ya reckon it'll rain on Sunday..?

[Slyer]

We should be focusing on finding a planet with unobtanium so we can mine it to death.
Or some other valuable resource, whatever it may be.

[Ixion]

Ya reckon it'll rain on Sunday..?

Shurrup. I know for a fact that you're not under 30, so you're buggering up my theory. Admit it, you're being channelled by your grandchildren , aren't you?

[pzkpfw]

Going back to the Moon (yes, back) didn't add a lot of value, other than practice for going further - so I don't mind that being cancelled.

On the other hand, "the stars" are really really far away. Like, very far. So the idea of sending people to "the stars" is pretty much science fiction and will stay that way for a while.

In-between, I think it's vital to get people living somewhere other than Earth (in case "the big one hits"). So the goal ought to be getting to Mars or some other planets' Moon or something, where we might be able to find a way to live.

Cancelling it all - that's a mistake.

At the very least there should be a long slow programme aimed at getting people, say, to Mars. Just something to keep the technologies ticking over, improving.

[Ixion]

The possibility of asteroid mining ahs been put forward in the other place .

And I think you just proved my secondary theory.

EDI. not you, him

[pzkpfw]

We should be focusing on finding a planet with unobtanium so we can mine it to death.
Or some other valuable resource, whatever it may be.

Getting anything, from there to here is so unbelievably expensive, that's just not practicable.

When people finally go out to, um, anywhere, it will usually be a one-way trip. The Mars colonists won't be going "home" to Earth for the holidays.

[Ixion]

Getting anything, from there to here is so unbelievably expensive, that's just not practicable.

When people finally go out to, um, anywhere, it will usually be a one-way trip. The Mars colonists won't be going "home" to Earth for the holidays.

Not if its a lump of rock it's not. Just adjust its orbit so that it splashes down into shallow(ish) water somewhere. Then use submarine mining to bring up the goodies.

But, realistically, why bring it home? Whqat the minerals would be wanted for, is to expand the progarm into space. So just build the ships in space, on the spot. Perfectly practical, just needs some money and some people with verve and guts.

[Slyer]

The possibility of asteroid mining ahs been put forward in the other place .

And I think you just proved my secondary theory.
You are right that I think we shouldn't go without trying to get something real back from the insane amount of money and time put into these expeditions.
Trying to settle on mars or something would be worthwhile, good practice for if we find a decent other place to live and invent some way to actually get there.
Understanding the universe more is always good, too.

I don't think we need to go into space again just because it is awesome, though.

I also support your space manufacturing venture.
Once we can build ships in space we can use those ships to build more ships to build ships in space.
Soon it will be Star Wars all over again. ;)

[Slyer]

I think we need to put forth the idea of a death star to the Americans.
Got to build a death star before the Russians. ;)

[Ixion]

One just knows that Mr Motu is going to turn this into a debate about the failure of capitalism to deliver on its promise of flying suck-hover blowy things,

[R6_kid]

Reinstate it. Outsource the construction of sub-assembelies to poor third world countries but pay them decent money to do it. Get the whole world involved - not just NASA/USA/ESA. It's a project that can actually be used for the greater good of man if you think outside the box. Being big headed and elitist "we've done it before" isn't the way to go about it.

Anyway, the way we're going we're going to need a new planet soon because the current one is getting pretty beat up.

[ckai]

The problem with the space program is that NASA are bastards for using the government money to kill off competition. They'll undercut any company (generally well below their costs) so they can't get a foot in the door. They're grossly inefficient and would make any sensible person cringe at how they handle their money. But why should they be? It's not their money. It's given to them. It needs a major shack up if anyone wants to go further.

Yes it costs shit loads of money to go into space but if NASA sorted their shit out it would cost shit loads not :gob: loads.

Cancel the program? Not the full program but I reckon it should be more focused. One step at a time. When you've got that, move onto the next one.

steve, I'm kinda with you on the "landing". It wouldn't be the first time NASA has fudged things (that's just gossip though). But I can also kinda believe they did it.

Bottom line, the young don't give a shit at all about the moon or space. In saying that, finding ET would excite the young as much as landing on the moon did for the oldies.

[Motu]

I'm a dreamer,count me in.Like Ixion I grew up with the promise of space travel (and sucky blowies),it's where the human race is destined to go....and only the USA will take us there.I still read a lot of science fiction,and am currently reading a series by Elizabeth Moon,all about mankind in space...a whole new society....it's just the earth on a cosmic scale.Shame on Obama - stop making wars and put that money into space travel.....make generation ships and fill them with the population of China and the Middle East....send them into the unknown.

[merv]

Having just been to the Kennedy Space Center, and to Universal Studios Florida (did the ET ride twice) I reckon they should push on. The shuttle programme is about to end in about 5 missions time and they need a new worthwhile project. If they don't do it they let about 1,500 bright minds go unemployed.

You mentioned Motu and hover sucky thingys, well we remember the Jetsons and the dream of flying to work etc. Basically after the Apollo moon stuff from '69 we imagined going places quickly, but it all retrenched. Blame it on Iran and the oil crisis of '74 I suppose which kind of took a lot of money out of USA's (and NZ's for that matter) pocket.

It is a big thing though, the moon is about 380,000 kms from earth, the space station where the shuttles go to is only something over 300km from earth. To take men to other planets is another thing again with so far to travel. Worth trying or else no one will ever know.

They didn't take us any closer than a mile from the launch pad - but here's Endeavour ready to go in a week.

[Ixion]

Says it all, really. What _have_ you young people been doing ? (and don't use "crazy insane non-stop donkey sex " as an excuse, cos we all did that)

[slofox]

I'm a dreamer,count me in.Like Ixion I grew up with the promise of space travel (and sucky blowies),it's where the human race is destined to go....and only the USA will take us there..

Let's hope the USA takes itself there first...

I used to be all for the whole deal many years ago. You know, 50's kids loved the science as did most of the whole world at that time. Science was going to be the saviour of mankind. But somehow that got changed with the anti-science swing that happened in latter years. Now I dunno really - I'd love to see it all go flat out again in some ways. I still remember the thrill of the first rocket launches (especially the American ones where the rocket blew up!) But then again, it is just possible that we could spend the money better elsewhere...I dunno - I think I'll just get on the bike again...

[Ixion]

John 21:18

[slofox]

John 21:18

I like the "verily verily I say unto thee" version meself...

[Mr. Peanut]

Space travel now has a metaphorical uneasiness. We need to sort out our problems here. I would spend the money on getting Americans to explore Earth.

Seeing a bunch of guys in white suits bouncing in slow motion on a wasteland doesn't really appeal.

[BoristheBiter]

I would give my left nut to go into space but i think that is from reading sci-fi books.

what really is there in space other than it's not here. all mankind would do is fuck that aswell.

[CookMySock]

Ya reckon it'll rain on Sunday..?It had better not. I'm riding to the moon.

Steve

[Swoop]

The young 'uns only want to go there if it CGI and a giant "reset" button gives them another chance...
(I remember watching Neil take that first step... LIVE on tv).



Outsource the construction of sub-assembelies to poor third world countries but pay them decent money to do it.
Fuck NO!
China can't even make a bloody Toyota Corolla (most reliable transport device on the planet after feet) without cocking that up. Keep it out of the hands of the neanderthals.

[Ixion]

Oh, there'd be a shit load of people die. Spaceexploration is _not_ safe. which is why I think the under 30s have wimped out, can't cope with anything that isn't "safe".

[Swoop]

Bugger. I forgot about OSH...
We're fucked.

[Trouser]

The multi trillion dollar 'war on terror™' put paid to this and many other worthwhile research and development programs.
I fear we'll turn into a bunch of planet bound, sexually depraved, islamic converting, communistic, internet 2.0 addicted, social networking whores.
Gosh.

[oldrider]

The space programme provides a lot of scientific development opportunities.

Far better idea than staging wars to do the same but probably doesn't kill enough innocents!

We have gotta find a better way to control world population than stupid wars!

The do gooders want to put space on hold on the pretext that we can't afford it.

But by the time they are ready to go on with it, there won't be any resources left to do it with!

The world can afford the space programme, in fact, we can not afford not to have it! (IMHO)

[Ixion]

See. he old. Second theory proven.

[gatch]

We have been led to believe that this planet is going to be a giant hamburger before I get to retire.

Fuck it, I like taking risks. Send me out there, I'll build a fuckin colony.

[gijoe1313]

I'd be the first to sign up! Always fancied a wee pootle out into the vast realms of space, if ET is there and is hostile, I'd bet the technologies for space thing gummies would ratchet way up in importance. Mmm velcro, I do like that ...

[riffer]

I grew up reading Robert Heinlein. I was obsessed with Space Travel, and built all the Airfix Apollo models (as well as countless airplanes as well).

I want us to go. So bad.

Old Rider's right. We can't afford not to. The United States was never as great as when it was leading the world in this way. I fear for them now.

[Motu]

I'd love to check out Watto's place....I reckon I could find something there he doesn't know the value of.Space junk....I'd be in Heaven.

[Winston001]

<style></style>Gerry Pournelle said "I lived to see the first man walk on the moon. I never dreamed I'd also see the last one."

Space exploration is a no brainer for me and I'm sad we even have to discuss it.

The essential difference between man and the other animals is our heightened curiosity. We will go anywhere and try anything. Space beckons us just as the horizon drew Columbus, Magellan, and Marco Polo. What's out there....??

Earth is crowded. Like it or not we need another safe harbour for our gene pool. It's too risky having all humans confined to Earth.

The technology spinoffs of space exploration pay for the effort. Teflon is simply one example.

As for looking after our problems first? When in human history did problems not exist? This is not a valid argument.

So give us a link Ix to the discussion please, I'm curious.......

[Dadpole]

Go outside, look up, then tell me you think we shouldn't go as far as we can.
Mankind is pre-wired to explore boundaries. Climb that mountain. Sail that sea. Leap into space.

[jonbuoy]

How about some other countries put some money towards it? USA has teetered on the edge of financial oblivion over the last 5 years, seems like a smart idea to shelve it for a while. Until we make some breakthrough in propulsion technologies or warp technology what IS the point? There is nothing "locally" to harvest resources or colonize. If the moon had a core of precious metal or unobtainium maybe it would be worth it.

[marty]

some bikers are whinging that $200 is too much to pay for an entry fee. Let alone squillions for space travel. I reckon the world should spend whatever it takes to go to space

[peasea]

I think we should send an expedition to Wales.

Mon.

[peasea]

When in human history did problems not exist?
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Last Thursday afternoon, around 2.44pm. After that it all turned pear-shaped.

[Miscreant]

Cancelling it all - that's a mistake.

At the very least there should be a long slow programme aimed at getting people, say, to Mars. Just something to keep the technologies ticking over, improving.

Yes, new technologies, like Velcro and Teflon frying pans both of which have revolutionized life on earth. I can't wait to see the next new technology we get from it.

[Macktheknife]

How about some other countries put some money towards it? USA has teetered on the edge of financial oblivion over the last 5 years, seems like a smart idea to shelve it for a while. Until we make some breakthrough in propulsion technologies or warp technology what IS the point? There is nothing "locally" to harvest resources or colonize. If the moon had a core of precious metal or unobtainium maybe it would be worth it.

Actually there are plenty of other countries spending big money on space programs, China and Russia are leading the charge, but lots of smaller countries are joining together to improve their spending power and maximize human resources.

As for harvesting stuff, plenty of goodies out there. Helium3 is plentiful on the moon, and lots of other minerals and such to be found in the asteroid belts. There are even private companies spending billions working out how to bring them safely back to earth, for a huge profit of course!

And the propulsion technology is moving froward too, the VASIMR unit is scheduled for its first space test in 2013. This technology should cut the travel time to Mars from about 18 months, to just a few weeks! True it is not warp speed, or even light speed, but it's close!

But to answer the question, this decision is bordering on betrayal not only of those who went before, but those who would follow them. Millions of people all over the world have been inspired to do great things and become great innovators, all because of the space program. To suggest that manned space flight is irrelevant to modern life is an enormous lie, how many things that are now common were invented purely from finding the solutions to 'space problems'. Teflon, velcro, microchips, memory foam, adhesives, ceramics, ballistic protection, medical and dental breakthroughs, transportation, construction techniques, waste disposal and treatment, communication, weather forecasting, Olympic swim suit materials, food processing technology, water purification systems. The list is almost literally endless, of the benefits that the space program has bought to modern society, don't believe me check out this site...http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/technologies/spinoffs.html
Or any one of dozens of other sites that list the benefits of space.

The real benefits are huge and that is just what has come out so far, based on the current goals. We literally can't imagine how many more things would come from a space program with the goals of having a lunar base, or a 'colony on Mars' (or anywhere else for that matter). The possibilities are literally endless, so why on earth (pun intended) would anyone stop it? good question...

Maybe the prez just wants to build his 'legacy' on 'saving the planet' type stuff, while the occupants of it go quietly into the great darkness that will follow foolish political decisions.

[Taz]

Once I perfect my gap drive travelling vast distances in space will be almost instantaneous. Any one willing to invest? :)

[tri boy]

I lust after a Plymouth Satellite.

[AD345]

Mack has pretty much nailed it.

The older generation (I exempt myself) just needs to get past all the years of sci-fi reading that portrayed the inevitability of the expolration of space being led by white males (primarily US types). The Chinese space program charges on ahead and they are rapidly developing the economic muscle to accelerate it. Couple that with a somewhat, mmm, phlegmatic, approach to safety and a Mars exploration should happen in what remains of my lifetime.

The American Century was nice while it lasted but it's pretty much done. Obama did what he had to for his country - which is the place he is accountable to after all.

[CookMySock]

Bugger. I forgot about OSH...
We're fucked.Theres no OSH on the moon, fool..

Steve

[Macktheknife]

Theres no OSH on the moon, fool..

Steve

No, but there is sudden death by stupidity :yes:
which I can see definite benefits to!

Seriously though, the technological and scientific benefits aside, giving up on manned space exploration is a foolish thing to do. Give them a really difficult task and leave them to it, the ISS is a good example.
Lots of international cooperation, heaps of innovation and mountains of knowledge comes from it.
Not to mention all the business spin-off that is created by it.

[Winston001]

There are technological barriers to going back into space not the least being escaping Earth's enormous gravity well. However if the space program was reactivated by the Americans we could see another race with huge benefits for us all. It would spark enthusiasm in physicists and engineers which is what is needed to get ideas percolating. Plus we can share information and ideas so much more easily than decades ago.

Going to Mars is not an easy task. We need to establish a moon base to get used to working in alien environments and build up resources. A Mars landing would sling-shot around Venus and require an enormous fuel payload. Plus there is the problem of placing 3 or 4 people in close proximity for at least a year without them going mad. Some of the extras such as a Mars buggy, food, water etc could be sent ahead to the designated landing site.

[Hans]

Shit. Right now I'm feeling physically sick. That's not some dumb metaphor. I'm actually trying not to throw up. I can't find the words to describe what I feel towards Obama now. Proof, if we needed any, that western civilisation is finished.

[mashman]

The only thing hampering these expeditions is the lack of finance to do it.

"I can't finish the project"
"Why not?"
"Money!"
"Ah! want some more?"
"Please."

Takes some time to get it, project slows to reflect cash flow available, add inflation on to regularly used components.

"I have a dream"

There is a remedy however. But it's to be taken with caution: there is a way to sort out the funding issues and may well have some other side effects... stop the idea of currency, stop money, no more yen, pounds, dollars, lira, francs etc... none. Everything in this world becomes valueless.

Give people 2 years to get used to the idea, answer their questions, tell them that this will allow us to move forwards in sooooo many fields. We have the infrastructure to pull this sort of thing off on a global scale. Governance (albeit when they have money to govern it's bad for all concerned) is in place, both locally and internationally. Communications are all in place apart from several sectors of the world and on and on. Only proviso is that everyone just keeps going to work for the time being, so that businesses can be classified as to their contribution towards humanity. Those businesses that close, will allow every employee to go back to university and do what the hell they want to do. Only they can now specialise. Financial workers become social workers, nurses, cops, doctors, physicists, firemen etc... if you follow it through to you and your communitys lives... Theft - Why? financial gain? greatly reduced i dare to venture... and that's just 1 example... could save a tonne on power usage (all those 24/7 financial computers and their cooling units just being switched off, as well as the desktops.)

You can now go ahead and be anything you like, build anything you like, do whatever you want (within the confines of the law, for your fellow man), go into space, look after your mum/neighbour, there are no financial barriers, everything is just resources now.

or something like that anyway...

[Winston001]

There is a remedy however. But it's to be taken with caution: there is a way to sort out the funding issues and may well have some other side effects... stop the idea of currency, stop money, no more yen, pounds, dollars, lira, francs etc... none. Everything in this world becomes valueless.

Give people 2 years to get used to the idea, answer their questions, tell them that this will allow us to move forwards in sooooo many fields......

Mate, I think you've just fallen down the rabbit hole. Say hi to Alice. :D

[mashman]

Mate, I think you've just fallen down the rabbit hole. Say hi to Alice. :D

Like i said, I have a DREAM!

just stating the root cause and a potential solution for the boys in NASA. No rich, no poor, just brain and braun and Darwin candidates!

If it costs nothing to go into space, then there's only resources to stop us. I just happen to think that in this day and age we're well equiped enough for a fundamental shift in how we live and think.

Mad Hatter sends his regards by the way... :shifty: he scares me!

[Winston001]

And the propulsion technology is moving froward too, the VASIMR unit is scheduled for its first space test in 2013. This technology should cut the travel time to Mars from about 18 months, to just a few weeks! True it is not warp speed, or even light speed, but it's close!



Ah - thought this was something new but sadly, not. The VASIMIR engine is clever certainly but it doesn't get over the fundamental problem of escaping Earth's gravity. The engine is only useful away from Earth - for example a trip to the Moon would take 11 days but use 1/8 the propulsion chemical rockets require. However because this engine can fire continuously for a long time it would make a Mars mission much quicker. The VASIMIR will be trialled on the ISS soon.

In the meantime we are still at the bottom of the well trying to get out. A space tether is an answer but a long way off. Controlled nuclear detonations contained inside a bell shape would work but kinda brutal and nasty.

[Swoop]

Theres no OSH on the moon, fool..
Unfortunately, to get to the moon you have to build your rocket on earth... where the osh monster lives...

[Mr. Peanut]

I dont get why it's so hard to go to the moon. If you can have a space station, and you have a space shuttle, isn't it a case of just sending up a bit more fuel and a lander?

[piston broke]

UBER EPIC FAILS,

we landed on the moon,
one man killed JFK,
twin towers wasted by planes,
war on terror.

just a couple.

pffft, sounds like bs to me.
conspiricy,,, i think not.
only my opinion though

[Winston001]

I dont get why it's so hard to go to the moon. If you can have a space station, and you have a space shuttle, isn't it a case of just sending up a bit more fuel and a lander?

Well....yes. No problem. Except unbelievably the blueprints for the Apollo rockets were destroyed so NASA would have to design a new booster.

The problem is political - at least within the USA. There is no will to go back into space at present. Thus there is no money. As pointed out earlier other countries have active space programs.

[jonbuoy]

How many long range probes, experimental rockets and research could be done for the same cost as a manned trip to the Moon?

[oldrider]

Even New Zealand has a space programme and it is very high tech by world standards too!

NASA wouldn't share technology so they developed their own and now sell it NASA, beat that!

[scissorhands]

Frisbees fly really well, they just go for ages....and gravity attraction magnification technology is just rubbish, right?

About the size of a small bus, and really smooth and shiny, with tiny 35kg people

Have you ever noticed how a hippie can get about with a shoulder bag but a fat American tourist has like 2 massive suitcases?

Take me to your leader. ( i knew they would come for me )

[Winston001]

Les - you need to clear your PMs cos they are full - noone can send you messages.

[Pussy]

I would have thought with the technology we have available nowadays, that it would be a lot easier to revisit the moon.
Your average fuel injected motorcycle's ECU has probably got more computing power than the room sized computers used in 1969.


If we're not moving forwards, we're going backwards. Time waits for no-one

[Ixion]

Les - you need to clear your PMs cos they are full - noone can send you messages.

I is working on it. Mr Spankme kindly increased my allowance because of the great number of bikeoi messages. But the recent vb upgrade lost the extension so I am now many hundreds over. I need to unload th all to a database.

[Kickaha]

What say you? Is cancellation of Constellation a betrayal of the spirit that has raised mankind from the brute creation?

Yes



I don't think we need to go into space again just because it is awesome, though.


We need to go because all the mountains have been climbed


The problem with the space program is that NASA are bastards for using the government money to kill off competition. They'll undercut any company (generally well below their costs) so they can't get a foot in the door.

Fuck Nasa, Isn't that what the X Prize is about?


I would give my left nut to go into space but i think that is from reading sci-fi books

I'd give both of them

[Pixie]

More and more, the world is being run by hippies.
They want us to live in caves,hug trees and love each other.
The only hope for the human race are the abductees.

Oh,and kill the hippies