What a knob: Came off today

[p.dath]

What a knob.

Was coming into a corner. Had a little bit of gravel on it. That wasn't the issue.

Changed down, didn't blip hard enough, rear wheel started snaking. Gave it some gas and almost got it back in control, but then the rear wheel hit the gravel and rear went from going a little bit sideways to a lot sideways, and finished off doing a low side.

I doubt I was going that fast when I hit the gravel. Was wearing two piece leathers, and no injuries.

Smashed off the bikes left mirror, left rear indicator, left foot peg, and painfully, seem to have put a pin hole sized hole in the left hand side of the crank case. It now has a very slow oil link.
A few scratches on the fairings, not not enough to bother me.

Rode the bike home. Most annoying bit was the missing left foot peg. Very tiring not being able to rest your foot on something.

So off to Cycletreads and perhaps the wreckers tomorrow to buy the replacement bits. Will rip the fairings off so I can check to see if there is any other hidden damage.


Completely my own fault. Completely avoidable. Pure rider error. Bummer.

I wish I could say I've learnt something from the experience. I can't say I have. That's the worst bit. I'd approach the corner again at the same speed and in the same way. Just need to make sure I don't fuck up the blip next time.

[CookMySock]

Changed down, didn't blip hard enough, rear wheel started snaking.er, whut? How can you change down so much on a 600 IL4 so the rear snakes? It's hard enough to do that on my 650 vtwin unless I am revving fuck outa out, and it has wayy more engine braking that your bike. I dont get it.

Stink that you came off though.

Steve

[rustic101]

Unfortunately as they say 'shit happens' so long as you are ok the bike bits can be replaced...

[steve_t]

Glad you're OK. So u had some compression lock up in the gravel? Bugger. And you've only just had your bike fixed up :(

[oldrider]

Venture biker's always expect bad surfaces to ride on but our sealed roads should be kept in better condition than they are!

The person "responsible for that bit of road" probably say's, "motorbikes, they are bloody dangerous things"!

Pleased you came out of it uninjured.........no ACC claim! :o

[p.dath]

er, whut? How can you change down so much on a 600 IL4 so the rear snakes? It's hard enough to do that on my 650 vtwin unless I am revving fuck outa out, and it has wayy more engine braking that your bike. I dont get it.

Stink that you came off though.

Steve

I don't think it's that had to lock the rear end up by failing to blip. I'm not sure what revs I was at. May 9k (by the sound), red line at 13.5k. Was changing down near the entry of the corner to maintain positive throttle while cornering while maintaining the same speed (was happy with my entry speed). I tend to use higher revs entering a corner so I can power out easily.

[SPP]

Bummer alright. Something to practice at AMCC ART on the 6th?

Perhaps the suspension guy could also check if the front dives too much under hard braking (which I assume you were doing)

[p.dath]

Bummer alright. Something to practice at AMCC ART on the 6th?

Perhaps the suspension guy could also check if the front dives too much under hard braking (which I assume you were doing)

Negative, I did not break at all. The rear wheel locked (which caused the snaking), which was caused by not applying enough throttle when I blipped. That's why I poured on the throttle.
To be honest, I think I could have got it back under control if I didn't hit the gravel, but who knows. Either way, I know it was 100% my fault, and I know what I did wrong.

If I had breaked hard while in the corner I could have straightened up and run off the road, or quite possible high sided (which is much worse than a low side).

[stify]

What a knob.


Changed down, didn't blip hard enough, rear wheel started snaking. Gave it some gas and almost got it back in control, but then the rear wheel hit the gravel and rear went from going a little bit sideways to a lot sideways, and finished off doing a low side.

Completely my own fault. Completely avoidable. Pure rider error.

I wish I could say I've learnt something from the experience. I can't say I have. That's the worst bit. I'd approach the corner again at the same speed and in the same way. Just need to make sure I don't fuck up the blip next time.


dude...go get some help...like propper help, learn how to ride ...if you cant corner without "blipping" you should stick to riding the bus

[steve_t]

Along with having not blipped the throttle enough, do u think you've let the clutch out too abruptly?

[hayd3n]

or do a me and top side
http://www.southernrider.co.nz/forum/download/file.php?id=1108&mode=view
http://www.southernrider.co.nz/forum/download/file.php?id=1107&mode=view
bies all back togeather stil looks a bit rough but rides mint a

[CookMySock]

Yeah just a touch hard on the downchanges methinks. Ok, maybe a lot hard. :whistle:

I'm used to a vtwin though.. just fatt it harrd in any gear and it fucks off. Nice.

Oh well. So you had a slide, bent some parts, and banged a knee. :shrug:

Falling off is fun isn't it. You should have a go at pocketbike racing sometime. You can fall off on every corner if you like, and its pretty hard to hurt yourself, or the bike.

Steve

[Bikemad]

after reading your thursday or was it sunday post about the ride you had just done..........i have to say im not surprised p.dath............take it to the track mate
happy your not hurt and didnt add to the ACC stats tho......

[p.dath]

or do a me and top side
http://www.southernrider.co.nz/forum/download/file.php?id=1108&mode=view
http://www.southernrider.co.nz/forum/download/file.php?id=1107&mode=view
bies all back togeather stil looks a bit rough but rides mint a

Huh? Those links don't work.

[The Everlasting]

Shit happens,at least your not injured!

Will your insurance pay for any repairs?

[YellowDog]

Hey PD, sorry to hear this bad news.

Glad you are OK.

Can you give us a heads up as to the specific corner?

So far as learing from it joking aside we all know you can ride your bike. You were probably just a bit too relaxed a took you mind off the task.

Certainly letting your clutch out too quickly without blipping up the engine speed is going to make you vulnerable to any surface imperfections.

Have a go at clutchless up and down shifting. Hopefully you will master it before stripping your gearbox and you will never have such gear change issues again.

Fingers crossed on the repair bill.

Good luck.

[SPP]

Negative, I did not break at all... If I had breaked hard while in the corner I could have straightened up and run off the road, or quite possible high sided (which is much worse than a low side).

Aaaah i see, you were already in the corner when you downshifted....

[p.dath]

Along with having not blipped the throttle enough, do u think you've let the clutch out too abruptly?

Nope. Just not enough gas. Letting the clutch out more slowly would have still caused a rear wheel lock.



Falling off is fun isn't it. You should have a go at pocketbike racing sometime. You can fall off on every corner if you like, and its pretty hard to hurt yourself, or the bike.


Have often thought about the bucket racing. I think it would be a lot of fun. Maybe later this year ...


after reading your thursday or was it sunday post about the ride you had just done..........i have to say im not surprised p.dath............take it to the track mate
happy your not hurt and didnt add to the ACC stats tho......

I do attend AMCC ART track days regularly ...


Will your insurance pay for any repairs?

I do have full insurance, but the repair costs wont be great, so it is not worth a claim.

[p.dath]

Can you give us a heads up as to the specific corner?

Alas I had not ridden this road before, and wouldn't be able to say which corner it was. The corner itself was not dangerous.


So far as learing from it joking aside we all know you can ride your bike. You were probably just a bit too relaxed a took you mind off the task.

There is probably some truth in that. I had been out for a great ride up to that point. I was nice and relaxed on the bike.


Have a go at clutchless up and down shifting. Hopefully you will master it before stripping your gearbox and you will never have such gear change issues again.

I think there is some truth here. People say clutchless shifting is not that worthwhile because it only saves you 500ms or whatever, and if your not racing why bother. However I notice on my bike it smooths out the power delivery a lot. I have started clutchless shifting a lot more recently, but don't always do it as a matter of practice.

Perhaps I'll consider your advice further and make it more a matter of course.


Aaaah i see, you were already in the corner when you downshifted....

Well, I was down shifting just before the entry of the corner, not actually in the corner. But it left me with a rear wheel lock up entering into the corner with the back end snaking left and right.

[steve_t]

Just having a quick look around the net. Do a lot of the Honda's pre 2009 not have slipper clutches?

[p.dath]

Just having a quick look around the net. Do a lot of the Honda's pre 2009 not have slipper clutches?

Isn't that more common in the larger 1000cc bikes? Would have solved my problem today ...

[CHOPPA]

Even the new cbr600s dont have slipper clutches.... Sounds like an easy mistake, i did a similar thing today missed a downshift and when i finally got it i was mid way through the corner and it stepped out but i got lucky!

[steve_t]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slipper_clutch

[CHOPPA]

And thats with a slipper clutch set to maximum slip!

[Bikemad]

I do attend AMCC ART track days regularly ...





hmmm..........perhaps you should leave it at the track then

[Mom]

I don't think it's that had to lock the rear end up by failing to blip. I'm not sure what revs I was at. May 9k (by the sound), red line at 13.5k. Was changing down near the entry of the corner to maintain positive throttle while cornering while maintaining the same speed (was happy with my entry speed). I tend to use higher revs entering a corner so I can power out easily.

Blip the throttle? Dont get me wrong I fully understand what you are talking about and use that from time to time myself, but it is not something I do every corner, every time. I ride a robust IL4, that has huge engine braking. I use that engine braking all the time. Interesting comment about maintaining high revs entering a corner so you can power out easily, I tend to enter a corner at a speed that I know I can power out of, selecting the correct gear is paramount for this to happen.

It sounds to me like you compression locked your rear wheel by changing down very quickly and dropping the clutch in the process ( I see where the throttle blip is important in your riding style) May I respectfully suggest you engage the services of a mentor and get some riding tips and advice on how to smoothly select the correct gear to approach a corner that allows you to power through and exit cleanly without "blipping" and heaven forbid biting the tarmac. I would be happy to go for a ride with you, but there is an active mentor program on KB you should perhaps investigate. Look for the :Me after names and you are away :yes:

Glad to hear you are unscathed.

[Ixion]

Sorry, but NO in line four has "huge engine braking." Or , indeed , any significant degree of engine braking at all. A big single, yes. A V twin , maybe . A four, no. A change down on an IL4 without blipping is possible. On a single or twin, no, not so.

[stify]

Blip the throttle? Dont get me wrong I fully understand what you are talking about and use that from time to time myself, but it is not something I do every corner, every time. I ride a robust IL4, that has huge engine braking. I use that engine braking all the time. Interesting comment about maintaining high revs entering a corner so you can power out easily, I tend to enter a corner at a speed that I know I can power out of, selecting the correct gear is paramount for this to happen.

It sounds to me like you compression locked your rear wheel by changing down very quickly and dropping the clutch in the process ( I see where the throttle blip is important in your riding style) May I respectfully suggest you engage the services of a mentor and get some riding tips and advice on how to smoothly select the correct gear to approach a corner that allows you to power through and exit cleanly without "blipping" and heaven forbid biting the tarmac. I would be happy to go for a ride with you, but there is an active mentor program on KB you should perhaps investigate. Look for the :Me after names and you are away :yes:

Glad to hear you are unscathed.

you are far too polite..see ya's 2moro all goin well

[Mom]

you are far too polite..see ya's 2moro all goin well

Why thank yee Sir :D

Yeah, we are home, look forward to giving you a big of a hug :blip:

[stify]

Sorry, but NO in line four has "huge engine braking." Or , indeed , any significant degree of engine braking at all. A big single, yes. A V twin , maybe . A four, no. A change down on an IL4 without blipping is possible. On a single or twin, no, not so.

bollocks...my inline 4 has plenty of engine braking...maybe not as much as the v twin i had but plenty enough to lock a rear when I'm feeling frisky

[Mom]

Sorry, but NO in line four has "huge engine braking." Or , indeed , any significant degree of engine braking at all. A big single, yes. A V twin , maybe . A four, no. A change down on an IL4 without blipping is possible. On a single or twin, no, not so.


Ixion, my bike has wonderful engine braking. Seriously, if you want to use the engine for an anchor, then an inline 4 will deliver. Yes, not as good as a single pot will give you, compression locking the rear wheel on them things is easy. I have never managed to lock the rear on my bike changing down (thank goodness) but I can rely on it slowing me down for certain.

[CHOPPA]

Best advice if it happens again mate just grab some clutch, it will let the wheel spin and get some traction back.

[p.dath]

Blip the throttle? Dont get me wrong I fully understand what you are talking about and use that from time to time myself, but it is not something I do every corner, every time. I ride a robust IL4, that has huge engine braking. I use that engine braking all the time. Interesting comment about maintaining high revs entering a corner so you can power out easily, I tend to enter a corner at a speed that I know I can power out of, selecting the correct gear is paramount for this to happen.

It sounds to me like you compression locked your rear wheel by changing down very quickly and dropping the clutch in the process ( I see where the throttle blip is important in your riding style) May I respectfully suggest you engage the services of a mentor and get some riding tips and advice on how to smoothly select the correct gear to approach a corner that allows you to power through and exit cleanly without "blipping" and heaven forbid biting the tarmac. I would be happy to go for a ride with you, but there is an active mentor program on KB you should perhaps investigate. Look for the :Me after names and you are away :yes:

Glad to hear you are unscathed.

I am naive next to your knowledge, so I read your post with careful consideration and great respect.

I am not familiar with compression lock, so I need to read about this. I observed it as the rear wheel snaking, and my limited knowledge led me to believe I locked the rear wheel up.

I do use a mentor, and I never used to blip the throttle. The mentor got me into this practice after observing my riding - and it really helped. It makes the bike substantially more stable when changing down. I would not go back to not-blipping the throttle now. The difference is huge. I don't know about other bikes. Perhaps blipping is not as important on low revving bikes.
And they have helped me a lot with gearing, cornering, cornering lines, entry speed - really the hole thing. Because for the huge improvement I can feel, I know the advice they have given me has been good. It has really helped.

[p.dath]

Ixion, my bike has wonderful engine braking. Seriously, if you want to use the engine for an anchor, then an inline 4 will deliver. Yes, not as good as a single pot will give you, compression locking the rear wheel on them things is easy. I have never managed to lock the rear on my bike changing down (thank goodness) but I can rely on it slowing me down for certain.

The Keith Code books I have read agree more with Ixion on this one. They say to avoid using the engine for braking. They say to use the brakes for braking.

I wasn't changing down to try and slow down. I was selecting a gear that would allow me to maintain positive throttle throughout the corner, and power out easily.

[bikemike]

The Keith Code books I have read agree more with Ixion on this one. They say to avoid using the engine for braking. They say to use the brakes for braking.

I wasn't changing down to try and slow down. I was selecting a gear that would allow me to maintain positive throttle throughout the corner, and power out easily.

Pretty sure all the instruction I ever received said the same; brakes are for braking, engine is for going.
And this is where the smarts come in, because other threads will wax lyrical about how you can ride smoothly and zen-like by not touching your brakes.
Of course, you do use the brakes for braking, and you can also ride smoothly whilst using plenty of brakes.
Also, you do use your engine for going, but you can use it for controlled descent, or for tail-off deceleration when the brakes have done their job.
I have had this skipping when riding briskly, and it has always been because I changed down too harshly whilst still braking (even on my R1200GS - not all the dive is eliminated with the tele-para lever suspension), or, by accidentally leaving a little of throttle on when braking hard.

Glad you are OK, and contrary to what you said earlier, sounds like you have learned from it.
I think the poster suggesting track time was having a play? non?

[jared]

uh, is anyone else wondering what 'blip' means?

[steve_t]

I guess it would make an interesting poll. When you're riding at 100km/h and come to a stop sign do you:

a) brake and change down through the gears letting the clutch out at each gear change
b) brake and pull in the clutch until you basically stop in 5th or 6th and clunk through the gears to 1st after you've stopped
c) brake and pull in the cluch and click down through the gears but never letting the clutch out
d) work your way down through the gears using engine braking and use the brakes only towards the end of the process to stop
e) something else

[quickbuck]

uh, is anyone else wondering what 'blip' means?

Ummm,
Nope.

It means he gives the throttle a twist to increase engine revs to match the lower gear.
This reduces the chances of the engine braking locking the rear....

[quickbuck]

I guess it would make an interesting poll. When you're riding at 100km/h and come to a stop sign do you:

a) brake and change down through the gears letting the clutch out at each gear change

......

b) you will be bloody lucky to get the gearbox to do that! And you shouldn't.... Unless in an emergency situation.
c) Again, there is a good chance of locking the box up.... But again, a technique you would use if you were really hauling to a stop fast.
d) brakes are for braking, engines for going.....

[howdamnhard]

I wish I could say I've learnt something from the experience. I can't say I have. That's the worst bit. I'd approach the corner again at the same speed and in the same way. Just need to make sure I don't fuck up the blip next time.

Well at least your okay. Next time try changing down earlier and use the clutch if the back locks up.

Good luck with get your bike sorted out.

[OutForADuck]

Hey dude,
sorry to hear you binned it. But we have all binned it at some stage and often its part of the learning curve. We active work and progress to try to avoid learning stuff by means of costly repairs either to bike or ourselves but as has been qouted a bit in this thread.... Shit happens.

I guess you have had re-enforced that when you pick up the speed/rev/entry speed etc you need to also pick up the co-ordination and attention. Does sound like you were riding well and muffed the down change, at a speed of down change (i.e. chaning down agressively as you enter a corner) where you needed that shift to be smooth and well controlled.

Going much slower with lower revs on the 600 it would have forgiven your mistake.
Not having gravel you probably would have got away with the mistake and a lesson about not drifting off whilst keeping the pace up.
If you had had this happen more often (had sideways skills) you "might" have still ridden through it.

Bottom line despite alot of criticism you have just fallen into the old trap of accidents are not caused by one thing but by a lot of things coming together... you'll make mistakes and get away with them (we all do) but sometimes things will compound and you'll be able to trace it all back to a series of fuck ups.

Sounds like, you weren't paying enough attention, you'rd slowed down your responses but not your pace, you did not noticed the gravel (or couldn't) you tried to power through the slide when you probably would have been best to just get the wheel turning and settled (sort of doing the right thing... but perhaps too aggressively, again without gravel might have fot away with it).

BTW, I was riding with p.dath before he headed home and had this Lesson. He was riding really welll, shifting well, controled and in the right position on the road. He was not making mistakes or riding like a madass tosser. We were on a paced ride but with a couple of dual purpose bikes and keeping speed pretty much within legal limits.

Again Sorry to hear dude... glad you walked away withou too much damage... Oh and if you had not worked it out last night... you WILL be hurting by today!!! bouncing does that :blink:

[davebullet]

Choppa's advice sounds good. Just grab the clutch to free the wheel of any engine braking effect and let it find traction again.

I only have the skills to use engine braking in a straight line. I find braking control harder via the clutch (via engine braking) vs. normal brakes. Where I use it is when I see slower traffic ahead (throttle off in current gear). I figure I'm also going to get more life out of my gearbox and clutch if I don't rely on engine braking all the time.

In a proper emergency, I'm not skilled enough to downshift, match revs (to avoid the lockup), release clutch smoothly and safely as well as the normal front and back braking thing.

I know you said you were changing down entering the corner, but sounds like you might have left it a little late with a bit of lean on, causing instability? I try and get into the correct gear whilst still vertical. Then it's easier on my little brain since it has much less to organise during the corner. I have changed gear mid corner a few times (going in too slow in too high a gear), but was going at such a nana pace, that I had the time to do it smoothly.

Anyway - good to hear your gear did it's job. It's much quicker to fix a bike than a body!

[CookMySock]

I wasn't changing down to try and slow down. I was selecting a gear that would allow me to maintain positive throttle throughout the corner, and power out easily.Well you can realistically do that in any of the higher gears. It's the selecting a really low gear and throwing the clutch at it that will lock or snake a tyre. Suggest that you don't really need 90% of the bikes' power to "power out of a corner" unless you are racing. Hehe it's good fun though. I enjoy the fattt wave of torque and the loud brrrappp of my vtwin out of corners, and I don't need copious revs for that - the main advantage of the vtwins - lots of feedback for so little effort.



a) brake and change down through the gears letting the clutch out at each gear change
b) brake and pull in the clutch until you basically stop in 5th or 6th and clunk through the gears to 1st after you've stopped
c) brake and pull in the cluch and click down through the gears but never letting the clutch out
d) work your way down through the gears using engine braking and use the brakes only towards the end of the process to stop
e) something elseBrake and blip from 6, to 5, to 4, then leave the rest to click down gently while approaching at or approaching walking speed. Unless theres chix watching, then it's essential and necessary to fully and loudly blappp it hard down through all the gears, and then crackle off at light-speed.

Steve

[boomer]

Isn't this the guy that preaches on about ART days and how good they/he is...??!

If your riding an old beat up 600 on the streets up in the 10,000 range and you don't know how to control your bike, then you're a liability to others, not only yourself.

Sounds to me like you think your riding on the track. Without the skills to to back it up

[Taz]

i guess it would make an interesting poll. When you're riding at 100km/h and come to a stop sign do you:

A) brake and change down through the gears letting the clutch out at each gear change
b) brake and pull in the clutch until you basically stop in 5th or 6th and clunk through the gears to 1st after you've stopped
c) brake and pull in the cluch and click down through the gears but never letting the clutch out
d) work your way down through the gears using engine braking and use the brakes only towards the end of the process to stop
e) something else

a .

[Bikemad]

I think the poster suggesting track time was having a play? non?

No bikemike......i was suggesting the next time he feels the need to do his best Rossi impersonation..........by his own admission 9000 rpm or so on an unfamilier road,maintaining positive throttle to get the power down early etc blah blah wank.......he should take the bike and his attitude to the track where it belongs.....just my opinion but i agree with boomer

[p.dath]

Isn't this the guy that preaches on about ART days and how good they/he is...??!

I do preach about how good the ART days are - but I'm always in the novice group. I think they ART days are good - and I go there to learn. :)


If your riding an old beat up 600 on the streets up in the 10,000 range and you don't know how to control your bike, then you're a liability to others, not only yourself.

Where do you think I should be riding in the rev range?

[Grubber]

uh, is anyone else wondering what 'blip' means?

Ummmm.....NO!

[neels]

I'm finding this interesting reading, this is my probably pointless take on it.

Firstly, bummer on dropping the bike, hope it's not to ugly a repair bill & good to hear you're OK.

My understanding of the reason for throttle when downshifting was to match the engine speed to the next gear to make the downshift smoother for the gearbox.

It sounds like you're changing down for corners to try and keep the engine at max torque which I wouldn't have thought necessary unless you're racing or riding an old 2 stroke, and the result if you let the clutch out too quick is going to be rear wheel lockup unless you keep the revs right up to match the speed of the bike. If there's no need for braking for the corner then there really shouldn't be any need for a downshift either, all you're doing is selecting a gear that's too low for your speed.

Unfortunately you've been caught out by a couple of things happening at once, and it's going to cost you some money. Hopefully you have learnt something from it even if you don't realise it now, the next time it happens there may be some instinct to not do what you did last time as your subconcious knows it ended badly.

Have you done any off road riding? If nothing else it gets you used to the bike squirming around under you and reduces the tendency to panic and do something to fix it rather than just ride it out.

[Usarka]

I do preach about how good the ART days are - but I'm always in the novice group. I think they ART days are good - and I go there to learn. :)


Do you go there to learn how to ride on the road or on the track..... they are different skills........

[YellowDog]

Old habbits die hard.

I rarely let my rpm drop below 5000rpm.

It's how I keep in control whilst always having power on tap.

So for me changing down is instinctive as the bike reduces speed for a corner or anything else.

[p.dath]

Have you done any off road riding? If nothing else it gets you used to the bike squirming around under you and reduces the tendency to panic and do something to fix it rather than just ride it out.

No I have not. I see sandspit have dire bikes, and I was thinking of talking a mate into coming with me and giving it a try. I think some offroad skills would help nicely. Thanks for the reminder.


Do you go there to learn how to ride on the road or on the track..... they are different skills........

Neither really. I go to learn machine control and handling. Machine control can be used equally on the track or the road.

[p.dath]

I rarely let my rpm drop below 5000rpm.

It's how I keep in control whilst always having power on tap.

So for me changing down is instinctive as the bike reduces speed for a corner or anything else.

It sounds like we have similar riding styles. But I see you have a litre bike. I've never ridden anything bigger than a 600. Does your bike also have a wide rev range?

[YellowDog]

This is what I mean by 'those old habits'.

I have spent most of my riding years on bikes of less than 1000cc.

I am member of a Tiger specific forum and it seems that many with 1000cc bikes tend to use the huge torque range rather than the Revs and gears as I do.

I just don't enjoy that style of lazy riding.

Some have suggested that I step down to a 600cc bike to take advantage of the lower weight and additional manoeueverability.

I'm not looking to change. I just enjoy using the full engine range and the huge power bursts with the higher revs. I know the engine really well and feel happy changing up and down gears with or without using the clutch.

If you get to know your bike as well as I know mine, the entire process is effortless and without having to think about it.

I find slow riding just as much fun as riding fast.
(in a different way)

[boomer]

Where do you think I should be riding in the rev range?

Depends what you want out of your bike and ride.
If you're riding the road casually, as a law abiding citizen, then i wouldn't have thought you'd have been over 6, 7000 rpms.
If your aggressively riding and want torque (for acceleration and deceleration) then yeah i'd be up in the double figures. ( on your old IL4 )

but the point is, i hear you advocating safe riding which would suggest option # 1 above. I therefore wouldn't expect to hear you mention option #2 unless you're track riding or a hypocrite..??!


I ride my bike like i stole it all the time but i'm also prepared to acknowledge i don't give a flying fck about the road rules, speed limits or conditions....

[CHOPPA]

Isn't this the guy that preaches on about ART days and how good they/he is...??!

If your riding an old beat up 600 on the streets up in the 10,000 range and you don't know how to control your bike, then you're a liability to others, not only yourself.

Sounds to me like you think your riding on the track. Without the skills to to back it up

I cant believe how many people are giving this poor dude shit about his riding when he has made a simple mistake, yeah he should think about what has happened and try learn from his mistakes but the amount of people with negative and demeaning comments who cant ride for shit themselves is amazing!

[yachtie10]

I cant believe how many people are giving this poor dude shit about his riding when he has made a simple mistake, yeah he should think about what has happened and try learn from his mistakes but the amount of people with negative and demeaning comments who cant ride for shit themselves is amazing!

+1

Glad your OK Phil and hope the bikes not too bad

to me sounds like your changing down too late but I ride differently than you so carry on with learning from those in the know

To all the amazing riders commenting who have never made a mistake, I hope youR nose gets rubbed in it when you do

Phil is a carefull rider who has made a jump in confidence but would still be considered by most on here as a fairly slow rider (I have waited for him many times because he rides his own ride).

[boomer]

I cant believe how many people are giving this poor dude shit about his riding when he has made a simple mistake, yeah he should think about what has happened and try learn from his mistakes but the amount of people with negative and demeaning comments who cant ride for shit themselves is amazing!

I dont see you with any silver ware worth harping on about.... :rofl: * edit, is that why you had your nose put out, are you an 'instructor' at the ART days?

[boomer]

I hope youR nose gets rubbed in it when you do

you'd have to be pretty speshal in the first place, to post on here that you'd crashed....

[Bikemad]

I cant believe how many people are giving this poor dude shit about his riding when he has made a simple mistake, yeah he should think about what has happened and try learn from his mistakes but the amount of people with negative and demeaning comments who cant ride for shit themselves is amazing!
Hey Choppa............if you go and read p.daths posts about his ride last sunday combined with his first posts about this incident,9000 rpm comin into unfamilier corners etc i think the only mistake he is makin is ridin on the road like its his personal race track.
One comment after his sunday ride posts was ....what song do you want played at ya funeral!!........a week later he bins it........
What with all the ACC bullshit of late the last thing bikers need is other bikers doin their best to prove ACCs distorted stereotypical view on bikers.
Slow Down...........or take it to the track is all im sayin

[Bikemad]

My apologies......the funeral comment was on a different thread altogether........hey im old and get confused easily............wheres my meds

[boomer]

I'm an ass hat


another tough guy... ahahahah :tugger:

yeah mate, i'm the one preaching sensible riding on the interweb, THEN a week later telling people i was blipping into corners, on the road, at over 10k rpms, lost the back end and binned it... yeah mate.... i see where you're coming from. My bad.


:rofl:

[p.dath]

Hey Choppa............if you go and read p.daths posts about his ride last sunday combined with his first posts about this incident,9000 rpm comin into unfamilier corners etc i think the only mistake he is makin is ridin on the road like its his personal race track.
One comment after his sunday ride posts was ....what song do you want played at ya funeral!!........a week later he bins it........
What with all the ACC bullshit of late the last thing bikers need is other bikers doin their best to prove ACCs distorted stereotypical view on bikers.
Slow Down...........or take it to the track is all im sayin

I am a pretty slow rider. If your with me in a group ride, you'll find me near the back, because I don't like exceeding the speed limit. You'll find that I tend to be an overly cautious rider, so I don't tend to go fast through corners. Actually, I don't even like overtaking people that much, as the increased risk of being in the other lane while accerlating bothers me a bit.
I very much "ride my own ride", and don't try and keep up with others.

If you come with me to the track on an ART day you'll also find me down the back of the pack. You won't find me overtaking you at 250km/h. I'm the one getting overtaken. That's because I don't ride my bike to anywhere near its speed limit. I pretty much just work on machine control and rider techniques at the track. It is a much safer envinoment than the road.

9kRPM gives me plenty of power on my bike, and if I was in a higher gear, plenty of speed. But in this case, I was in a low gear. I wasn't wanting speed. At the time I was probably changing down into 1st from 2nd. When you have power available, you have choices. I can slow down a bit (thanks to some engine braking as the revs drop quickly if you close the throttle with them up high), speed up (lots of power on tap at 9kRPM), all sorts of options for things that may present themselves on a corner.

I don't think I was going fast through this corner. I think my speed and position were appropriate. I think I just screwed up my blip.


However I do appreciate all comments, positive or negative. Hence I made the post. All posts make me reflect on things. Even now I replay some aspects in my head thinking what would have been better to do. I have one pressing question, but I'll ask them seperately to make it easier for people to reply to.

[bsasuper]

Ha Ha Spooner, thats a typical responce from a twat, twats are so predictable, its twats like you that make me laugh so much, thanks for being a twat, really thanks

[p.dath]

So this is my question. Lets say you do experience a rear wheel lock through either a change down or compression lock (sorry Mom, still haven't figured out what that is yet), and especially considering your about to enter a corner, do you think your better to:

* Apply more power to start the wheel rotating again
* Engage the clutch so the wheel spins freely, but accept the bikes suspension will now be upset, the front wheel is suddenly going to load up, and as a result most of the bikes traction is going to now be reliant on the front wheel rather than split between the two.

My personal guess would be to apply more throttle, which is what I did. After reading the Keith Code books I think he would also agree.

However comments on here have me wondering if this was the wrong approach. Your thoughts, and most importantly, why. And in case it varies between bikes, I'd prefer answers more tailored to a sports bike.

[boomer]

Ha Ha Spooner, thats a typical responce from a twat, twats are so predictable, its twats like you that make me laugh so much, thanks for being a twat, really thanks


What would you like to hear me say, that i think you and D path are riding gods and i hang on every word you type and will en devour to change my life path based on what you think/type...

I'll also go crying to my mum, cos you insulted me..... Ok. :rofl:

[jimbo_on_travels]

I have experienced rear wheel lock up a couple of times on my R6 (similar in some respects to the CBR) - and have to say I would slow down, at least until the wheel engages with the road again, and the gears are finding traction. I wouldn't pull the front anchors in hard, probably just a little bit to stabilise the bike.

The scariest rear wheel lockup for me, was coming down Wainui hill to Lower Hutt changing down a bit quick on a corner from a higher gear and the bike did just that. Not sure if its a text book method or not, but certainly worked for me.

[Bikemad]

i dont understand dude.........changin to first at 9000..........sounds like racin to me.
the only place i ever do numbers like that is on the track.

[bsasuper]

I doubt you got the point boomer, maybe when you have matured a bit you will. Im sure there other threads where you can talk all the bullshit you want, p dath is asking for help so thats what this thread is about.

[boomer]

I doubt you got the point boomer, maybe when you have matured a bit you will. Im sure there other threads where you can talk all the bullshit you want, p dath is asking for help so thats what this thread is about.

Thinking I dont get the point, you take the opportunity to abuse me? whos the top hat?

i gave him advice, the daft prick was speeding ( whether over the stated speed limit or over his capability ) and dropped it down ( god knows fookin why, i can hazard a guess he either thinks he was rossi or he has made a major fcuk up due to lack of experience) and allegedly hit some gravel in the middle of the road (is that the centre of his lane, a cars right wheel lane or the centre line); his over excited rear then slipped and made him bin.

you don;t have to be a rocket scientist to see whats happened. So on that note, i'll let you clever sorts work it out by yourselves and i'll go drive my commodore V8 at 4,500rpm and drop it down a cog or two, in the corners. (hopefully i dont fook up my blips)

Lets see how many riders out east i piss off and how many 'fooking cager' threads i can instigate.... Lets not forget the .. 'i binned it' thread.. 'what did i do wrong ?!'

[BMWST?]

So this is my question. Lets say you do experience a rear wheel lock through either a change down or compression lock (sorry Mom, still haven't figured out what that is yet), and especially considering your about to enter a corner, do you think your better to:

* Apply more power to start the wheel rotating again
* Engage the clutch so the wheel spins freely, but accept the bikes suspension will now be upset, the front wheel is suddenly going to load up, and as a result most of the bikes traction is going to now be reliant on the front wheel rather than split between the two.

My personal guess would be to apply more throttle, which is what I did. After reading the Keith Code books I think he would also agree.

However comments on here have me wondering if this was the wrong apporach. Your thoughts, and most importantly, why. And in case it varies between bikes, I'd prefer answers more tailored to a sports bike.

compression lock= a rear wheel lock through a change down.
Personally i cant see that you ever ever need to change down to first at 9000 rpm.The engine braking availabe from such a scenario will lock the back wheel up on prolly any bike.I would suggest that 9000 rpm in second gives you all the options you need.Practise your blipping,you will find the speed matching of the engine to road speed becomes more important as you go down through the gears.The torque multiplication of the lower gears means you dont need quite as many revs to get some engine response.

[crazyhorse]

I don't think it's that had to lock the rear end up by failing to blip. I'm not sure what revs I was at. May 9k (by the sound), red line at 13.5k. Was changing down near the entry of the corner to maintain positive throttle while cornering while maintaining the same speed (was happy with my entry speed). I tend to use higher revs entering a corner so I can power out easily.

You don't HAVE to blip between gears - so thats not it. I reckon you were already in a low gear, and went to go down more, and therefore too fast for that gear when you let it out and whoopsie, over you go. Esp if you were sitting at 9k.... we've all done it at somepoint, however, best to be more careful when gravel on corners and if you are in the wrong gear...

[YellowDog]

So this is my question. Lets say you do experience a rear wheel lock through either a change down or compression lock (sorry Mom, still haven't figured out what that is yet), and especially considering your about to enter a corner, do you think your better to:

* Apply more power to start the wheel rotating again
* Engage the clutch so the wheel spins freely, but accept the bikes suspension will now be upset, the front wheel is suddenly going to load up, and as a result most of the bikes traction is going to now be reliant on the front wheel rather than split between the two.

My personal guess would be to apply more throttle, which is what I did. After reading the Keith Code books I think he would also agree.

However comments on here have me wondering if this was the wrong apporach. Your thoughts, and most importantly, why. And in case it varies between bikes, I'd prefer answers more tailored to a sports bike.

Well there's your answer!

I never ever take a corner in first gear.

If you are moving, take it in second.


If you are not going fast enough, speed up.

If you really want/need to take it in first, then make sure you change down early enough to gain full control of the bike.

PROBLEM RESOLVED: CLOSED 31/01/2010 11:27

[steve_t]

So this is my question. Lets say you do experience a rear wheel lock through either a change down or compression lock (sorry Mom, still haven't figured out what that is yet), and especially considering your about to enter a corner, do you think your better to:

* Apply more power to start the wheel rotating again
* Engage the clutch so the wheel spins freely, but accept the bikes suspension will now be upset, the front wheel is suddenly going to load up, and as a result most of the bikes traction is going to now be reliant on the front wheel rather than split between the two.

My personal guess would be to apply more throttle, which is what I did. After reading the Keith Code books I think he would also agree.

However comments on here have me wondering if this was the wrong apporach. Your thoughts, and most importantly, why. And in case it varies between bikes, I'd prefer answers more tailored to a sports bike.

I'm still very much a noob myself but I would suggest that if your back wheel loses traction and you aren't in control, applying the clutch is the safest way to allow the rear wheel to "catch up". Applying the throttle to a power a wheel that has lost traction is the domain of those with amazing balance and control. I'm glad u didn't suggest the option of applying the front brake which may be the natural tendency. If you brake, you shift more weight off the back wheel and reduce rear grip even further.
I still think that if you had let the clutch out slower and given the engine a chance to catch up to the rear wheel speed, you'd have avoided compression lock - which is again locking up of the drive wheel(s) due to the grip being overpowered by the engine braking. The few extra milliseconds for the clutch release allows a little slip to give the engine more time to speed up. Of course, this isn't necessary when you blip the throttle.

While you open yourself up to sledging, I think posting these sorts of things is good as it allows not only yourself but others, like myself, to become aware of possible issues and how to (and how not to) respond to them :niceone:

Like YellowDog, I hardly ever use 1st gear if already on the move but I'm always just cruising around

[bsasuper]

Someone on this thread has cried they are being abused, yet they use the words " daft prick" directed to someone else.

[Motu]

So this is my question. Lets say you do experience a rear wheel lock through either a change down or compression lock (sorry Mom, still haven't figured out what that is yet), and especially considering your about to enter a corner, do you think your better to:

I'd prefer answers more tailored to a sports bike.

I've experienced plenty of compression lock up if you want to cal it that into corners,on gravel.I don't ride sportsbikes,and probably never will.Do you want answers or not?

[Conquiztador]

So the backwheel locks up when you change down (to first gear???). What to do? Change back up!

[p.dath]

I've experienced plenty of compression lock up if you want to cal it that into corners,on gravel.I don't ride sportsbikes,and probably never will.Do you want answers or not?

I think that if I had off road skills I could have saved this case as well. Once my rear wheel started sliding quickly I could probable have saved it by turning the bars hard in the direction I want to go and used some more balance and waited for the back end to correct.

But I don't have those skills. I'm interested in your advice, but it helps if the advice is given in a context that I can apply and understand it.


So the backwheel locks up when you change down (to first gear???). What to do? Change back up!

Changing back up takes a long time when things are happening quickly. So I'll put you in the camp of suggesting engaging the clutch, followed by a gear change, effectively while waiting for the traction to return (aka, wheel speed increase enough again to start spinning).

More people are suggesting using the clutch and waiting it seems.

[Taz]

Someone on this thread has cried they are being abused, yet they use the words " daft prick" directed to someone else.:whocares: Take it elsewhere.

[Hahn]

So this is my question. Lets say you do experience a rear wheel lock through either a change down or compression lock (sorry Mom, still haven't figured out what that is yet), and especially considering your about to enter a corner, do you think your better to:

* Apply more power to start the wheel rotating again
* Engage the clutch so the wheel spins freely, but accept the bikes suspension will now be upset, the front wheel is suddenly going to load up, and as a result most of the bikes traction is going to now be reliant on the front wheel rather than split between the two.

My personal guess would be to apply more throttle, which is what I did. After reading the Keith Code books I think he would also agree.

However comments on here have me wondering if this was the wrong apporach. Your thoughts, and most importantly, why. And in case it varies between bikes, I'd prefer answers more tailored to a sports bike.

Turn it into a power slide! Rossi would!


But seriously, you should be able to cruise around at 5-6k rpm. Your bikes got plenty of power.

[sil3nt]

Did you seriously change down to first whilst entering a corner? 1st gear is good for acceleration from a stand still and thats about it. I would assume second gear should be able to pull strongly from anything over 20kph on most bikes!

[p.dath]

Did you seriously change down to first whilst entering a corner? 1st gear is good for acceleration from a stand still and thats about it. I would assume second gear should be able to pull strongly from anything over 20kph on most bikes!

1st gear is good through to a bit over 100km/h on my bike (on the 250 you have you probably find it is only good for a standing start). I wasn't travelling anywhere near that speed at the time though. 2nd gear would have been ok but would not have offered much power out of the corner.

[boomer]

1st gear is good through to a bit over 100km/h on my bike (on the 250 you have you probably find it is only good for a standing start). I wasn't travelling anywhere near that speed at the time though. 2nd gear would have been ok but would not have offered much power out of the corner.


yeah cos you need that acceleration when you're flat on ya ass huh?! or to sling shot out like Hagaa does.

Seriously, think about wtf it is your saying and doing....

[beyond]

If your rear slides out in gravel as a result of compression lockup, you quickly stand the bike up momentarily, the rear wheel will grip again and you re-enter the corner once more by dropping her in again once composed. This can be done quickly if you use counter steering, footpeg pressure, assuming you are a ball of the foot rider, and knee pressure on the tank.

This manouevre will still have you in your lane at the end of the move without having to enter the other lane if done correcltly.

[retro asian]

1st gear is good through to a bit over 100km/h on my bike

Glad to hear you're ok mate.
I dont' ride a sportsbike, but it's hard to see why you'd want to change down do 1st on the road...unless you're in a traffic jam??

Don't know if this works for you, but a game/exercise I find useful is to go through corners in a higher gear than I'm comfortable with. I found that I could quite easily take corners in 5th that I'd usually always use fourth for, and it helps improve my "smoother riding skills" as one can't so quickly get power back on tap. Also I can now stick my feet up on the highway bars, and ride in 5th for miles and miles :laugh:

[Taz]

yeah cos you need that acceleration when you're flat on ya ass huh?! or to sling shot out like Hagaa does.

Seriously, think about wtf it is your saying and doing....

Take your meds Boomer.

[Bikemad]

yeah relax Boomer..............pass the cone mon..........i've just realised this thread has got to be a wind up ...........

[steve_t]

.i've just realised this thread has got to be a wind up ...........

What makes u say that?

[boomer]

meds taken.

WELL done D.Path, glad your ok and no one was hurt. Congratulations.

[Bikemad]

1st gear is good through to a bit over 100km/h on my bike (on the 250 you have you probably find it is only good for a standing start). I wasn't travelling anywhere near that speed at the time though. 2nd gear would have been ok but would not have offered much power out of the corner.
coz in one breath hes sayin hes really safe,responsible and at the back at track days and on rides etc,next breath hes droppin into first at 9k rpm approaching a corner on unfamilier public road coz he wants to get the power down etc...........is this what they teach at ART track days..............like i said im old and somewhat confused on this thread,doesnt stack up,must be a piss take.............i dont mind tho.........got my post count up......and he wasnt hurt for the experience............so lesson learned one hopes

[boomer]

coz in one breath hes sayin hes really safe,responsible and at the back at track days and on rides etc,next breath hes droppin into first at 9k rpm approaching a corner on unfamilier public road coz he wants to get the power down etc...........is this what they teach at art track days..............like i said im old and somewhat confused on this thread,doesnt stack up,must be a piss take.............i dont mind tho.........got my post count up......and he wasnt hurt for the experience............so lesson learned one hopes

he's deadly serious. Thats whats so hilarious about this whole thread and the idiots supporting him. But im the one in need of help, so i'll congratulate him again and ask who his tuTor/mentor is ... So i can stEAR fookIN CLEAR OF THE muppet(s) !

[SPP]

I'm not sure if you're taking the piss and sitting back having a laugh or legitimately want more drive out of the corners.

I ride a similarly geared and cc bike to you. At 9k in second gear (~100kmh) there's not a hell of a lot more drive that little IL4 is going to give you thats not already there. Searching for 1st, no brakes, into a corner, at 100kmh is not what you want to be doing right now unless the corner is a hairpin and you're looking to back it in and wheelie it out. :shit:

He's a couple of suggestions that may give you that drive you're searching for (no I'm not taking the piss, they may work for you):

loose a tooth on the front sprocket and add two to the rear (Much more drive in second gear and the top end speed you loose you don't care about anyway. Not so good if you cruise a lot on the motorway.)
buy a v-twin (you'll learn throttle control and engine braking then)
buy a thou (ok this suggestion is a little bit of a piss take)

[boomer]

i CAN'T BELIEVE I HAVEN'T ABUSED HIM FOR RIDING A HONDUH TOO....

NO WONDER HE BINNED IT, THE BACK PROBABLY STEPPED OUT ALL OF AN INCH AND THE LIMP WRIST-ED , GAY PERSON, JUST RODE STRAIGHT OF THE ROAD AND SLID ON TEH GRAVEL.


THAT'S PROBABLY A MORE ACCURATE ACCOUNT.

[boomer]

buy a thou



I LIKE IT AND IF YOU DON;T MIND I 'D SUGGEST GETTING A GSXR THOU.... THEN YOU CAN RIDE THAT FOOKAH IN ANGER ! AND NOT WORRY ABOUT LIMP WRISTS ANY MORE !


pROBLEM SOLVED ! NICE WORK spp !!! i likE IT

[SPP]

i CAN'T BELIEVE I HAVEN'T ABUSED HIM FOR RIDING A HONDUH TOO....


Couldn't resist eh Boomer

[crazyhorse]

1st gear is good through to a bit over 100km/h on my bike (on the 250 you have you probably find it is only good for a standing start). I wasn't travelling anywhere near that speed at the time though. 2nd gear would have been ok but would not have offered much power out of the corner.

Whilst first gear might be good in acceleration up to 100km/hr. I doubt you could go down into 1st gear at 100km/hr.

My question to you is? Would you go into first if you were in a car? Nope. Didn't think so. Well, the same kind of rules apply to bikes. at 100km/hr. You are asking for trouble for even thinking about dropping her into first gear. Suggest you go back to learning to ride and getting to know about gears and safe speeds etc

[boomer]

couldn't resist eh boomer


i'm giving my self the beats as we speak, i cant believe i let this go for so long without abusing him for his sexuality.... I must be slowing down in my old age.

[Bikemad]

more meds boom..............hold it down,hold it..........................there ya go

[boomer]

more meds boom..............hold it down,hold it..........................there ya go


I POPPED A COUPLE OF lsd"s>. I NEED TO GET ON TEH SAME LEVEL AS TEH op

[Bikemad]

far out man................say gidday to elvis for me

[Mom]

I likE IT

Wow! Boomer returns. You looked at the stats eh? Want to improve your badness :D

Look, he binned riding how he does. He is a returned rider with a mentor. He posted he binned, which is a lot braver than most as he has learned in this thread.

I have ridden with you, and would be happy to do so anytime. I wonder if the current weather patterns are affecting peoples ability to cope. I do know however that you are going to take a spanking from the mods anytime soon :laugh:

[boomer]

I say 'bring it' to the mods.. They'd be doing me a favour.

As for stats.. I haven't seen one for most annoying prik yet..??! I must be 'up there' tho ...

[Bikemad]

mods...........little geezers wearing anoraks on vespas???

[boomer]

mods...........little geezers wearing anoraks on vespas???

ARE YOU OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER BEING ONE..??! I DID LIKE MY 2 TONE & ska

[Bikemad]

hell yeah..........people try and put us down......















almost.............the Ricies were the first bike type club i knew of in CHCH years agowhen i was a kid............they rode Susuki 50cc mavericks i think they were

[SixPackBack]

What a knob.

Was coming into a corner. Had a little bit of gravel on it. That wasn't the issue.

Changed down, didn't blip hard enough, rear wheel started snaking. Gave it some gas and almost got it back in control, but then the rear wheel hit the gravel and rear went from going a little bit sideways to a lot sideways, and finished off doing a low side.

I doubt I was going that fast when I hit the gravel. Was wearing two piece leathers, and no injuries.

Smashed off the bikes left mirror, left rear indicator, left foot peg, and painfully, seem to have put a pin hole sized hole in the left hand side of the crank case. It now has a very slow oil link.
A few scratches on the fairings, not not enough to bother me.

Rode the bike home. Most annoying bit was the missing left foot peg. Very tiring not being able to rest your foot on something.

So off to Cycletreads and perhaps the wreckers tomorrow to buy the replacement bits. Will rip the fairings off so I can check to see if there is any other hidden damage.


Completely my own fault. Completely avoidable. Pure rider error. Bummer.

I wish I could say I've learnt something from the experience. I can't say I have. That's the worst bit. I'd approach the corner again at the same speed and in the same way. Just need to make sure I don't fuck up the blip next time.

My bullshit meter just went thermo nuclear.

[boomer]

my bullshit meter just went thermo nuclear. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cactus%20cock&defid=4089504)




i do believe its #2

[YellowDog]

coz in one breath hes sayin hes really safe,responsible and at the back at track days and on rides etc,next breath hes droppin into first at 9k rpm approaching a corner on unfamilier public road coz he wants to get the power down etc...........is this what they teach at ART track days..............like i said im old and somewhat confused on this thread,doesnt stack up,must be a piss take.............i dont mind tho.........got my post count up......and he wasnt hurt for the experience............so lesson learned one hopes

:rofl: Maybe we should all try the same and then post the various results.

[p.dath]

Whilst first gear might be good in acceleration up to 100km/hr. I doubt you could go down into 1st gear at 100km/hr.

My question to you is? Would you go into first if you were in a car? Nope. Didn't think so. Well, the same kind of rules apply to bikes. at 100km/hr. You are asking for trouble for even thinking about dropping her into first gear. Suggest you go back to learning to ride and getting to know about gears and safe speeds etc

Well, I was not travelling at 100km/h at the time. I was quite a bit slower. But I do agree, if I was already at 100km/h I wouldn't change down into 1st. I would be hitting redline straight away, and would be needing to change straight back up again.

Probably only one of the cars I have owned I would have dropped into 1st, and that was a 2l (but not at 100km/h, if would have redlined as well). The rest either had enough torque that it didn't matter, or were so gutless it didn't matter.

[CHOPPA]

I dont see you with any silver ware worth harping on about.... :rofl: * edit, is that why you had your nose put out, are you an 'instructor' at the ART days?

I wasnt suggesting i was anything special rather just suggesting that I have seen you ride and you really aint in the position to comment on peoples riding skills....

[Ixion]

I've experienced plenty of compression lock up if you want to cal it that into corners,on gravel.I don't ride sportsbikes,and probably never will.Do you want answers or not?
don't usually have to worry about a highside on gravel

dropping into 1st @ 9000 on a corner on a sprotsbike is .... Interesting

might be best not to try it on a two smoker. Anyway you are ok, bikes ok ish so alls well,.

[jonbuoy]

9000 RPM in first would be around 70KM/H no? Luck you are OK mate could have easily been a highside.

[SPP]

Hey p.darth,

The message coming through is that what you tried to do rather than how you did it was the issue in this case. I’d suggest looking at why you thought you needed to grab such a low gear rather than focussing on how to grab a gear. The answer could be as simple as speed up a little and flow through. I don’t know, I’m only speculating.

Nobody on here knows your riding better than your mentor. Go see him or her and show them. They’ll help you correct it.

ART days are awesome aren’t they (or any track time when you receive trusted instruction for that matter). What better place to learn about bike and rider? Don’t directly transfer all of it to the road though, horrible shit waits there.

Hope the repairs don't sting too much but on the upside you now have an excuse to add some bling!

[p.dath]

9000 RPM in first would be around 70KM/H no? Luck you are OK mate could have easily been a highside.

I think you would be right about the speed. Since the event I've considered a high side, and yes, I'm glad a high side didn't happen. Could have been a different outcome.



The message coming through is that what you tried to do rather than how you did it was the issue in this case. I’d suggest looking at why you thought you needed to grab such a low gear rather than focussing on how to grab a gear. The answer could be as simple as speed up a little and flow through. I don’t know, I’m only speculating.

Thanks for the summary. I've been reflecting in this area as well, and there is some truth in it.

[boomer]

I wasnt suggesting i was anything special rather just suggesting that I have seen you ride and you really aint in the position to comment on peoples riding skills....

You're mistaken, you've never seen me ride.. ! I think you're confusing me for Gixser!

[CHOPPA]

You're mistaken, you've never seen me ride.. ! I think you're confusing me for Gixser!

hahaha yeah maybe!!

[FROSTY]

I think you would be right about the speed. Since the event I've considered a high side, and yes, I'm glad a high side didn't happen. Could have been a different outcome.
Thanks for the summary. I've been reflecting in this area as well, and there is some truth in it.
Mate please have a yarn to your mentor about this.I feel the value of this crash to you hasn't yet been found and It could be VERY valuable.

on a side note-- unexpected gravel on a corner can be really tricky shit to deal with on a sprot bike with wide tyres and fark all weight. I reccomend a bit of driftyuy sand riding on a little trailee

[pc220]

Just wondering why someone who is a fairly conservative would be worried about having max power avaliabe out of the corner. I would have thought that being in the upper power/rev range could pose even more of a problem than not enough.I guess i am just a bit of a lazy rider and by no means very experianced, I enter a corner slow and exit slow often only in the 3-4k rev range.My point is.... i dont know, just trying to weed out the bullshit and extract the useful info.

[p.dath]

on a side note-- unexpected gravel on a corner can be really tricky shit to deal with on a sprot bike with wide tyres and fark all weight. I reccomend a bit of driftyuy sand riding on a little trailee

Yeah, I'm seriously considering going over to sandspit and having a play on their beginner course.

[Katman]

Are you seriously saying that you dropped it into 1st at about 70kph so you had sufficient power to exit the corner....... but that you don't treat the road as a racetrack???????

Grow a fucking brain!

[boomer]

Are you seriously saying that you dropped it into 1st at about 70kph so you had sufficient power to exit the corner....... but that you don't treat the road as a racetrack???????

Grow a fucking brain!

i'm surprised it took you so long... we've concluded the thread is a wind up.

no one would be so stupid as to start a thread like this. SHIRLEY ?!

[Katman]

no one would be so stupid as to start a thread like this. SHIRLEY ?!

Nothing much surprises me anymore.

[p.dath]

Just wondering why someone who is a fairly conservative would be worried about having max power avaliabe out of the corner. I would have thought that being in the upper power/rev range could pose even more of a problem than not enough.I guess i am just a bit of a lazy rider and by no means very experianced, I enter a corner slow and exit slow often only in the 3-4k rev range.My point is.... i dont know, just trying to weed out the bullshit and extract the useful info.

Not so much max power; but wanting to maintain a positive throttle throughout the corner. The Keith Code books talk about this quite a bit as well (I refer your attention to "A Twist of the wrist II", chapter 5 - Throttle control).

He discusses what he calls "street lazy" riders who delay applying positive throttle till 2/3 of the way through the corner.
Basically the theory is if you take the total contact patch of both your tyres, you optimally want 40% of the total contact patch being made with the front tyre, and 60% wth the rear tyre. This gives you the most grip. And you can only achieve this by having positive throttle.
He says you should be on positive throttle as soon as you can - don't wait till the apex. He basically infers that "lazy street riders" get away with it a lot of the time - until they need the extra grip.
Keith Code also discusses many of the other benefits of positive throttle control, such as settling the suspension down, improving handling, etc. I'm not going to re-produce the chapter, but invite those interested to read it for themselves. The Keith Code books are quite cheap to buy from amazon.com.

But I didn't do things right, because I came off. Pretty obvious really. I am definitely going to be continuing to use positive throttle on corners, as everything I've read and been told suggest this is best. But perhaps I need to consider not putting myself in the place of needing to blip so hard. In my case, I should probably have just remained in second.

[kiwifruit]

I like a laugh

[Bikemad]

ha ha ha ha ha oh man...........now i know this is a wind up
dude.........dont believe everything you read............get rid of the book...........listen to frosty and consult your mentor,unless he put you onto the book in which case get a new munter i mean mentor

[boomer]

dude... the way your mind works is a law unto itself.

[boomer]

I like a laugh

i love a fruit !!! a kiwifruit :love:

[Bikemad]

i got it............your the David Brent of KB............magic

[Bikemad]

Not so much max power; but wanting to maintain a positive throttle throughout the corner. The Keith Code books talk about this quite a bit as well (I refer your attention to "A Twist of the wrist II", chapter 5 - Throttle control).

He discusses what he calls "street lazy" riders who delay applying positive throttle till 2/3 of the way through the corner.
Basically the theory is if you take the total contact patch of both your tyres, you optimally want 40% of the total contact patch being made with the front tyre, and 60% wth the rear tyre. This gives you the most grip. And you can only achieve this by having positive throttle.
He says you should be on positive throttle as soon as you can - don't wait till the apex. He basically infers that "lazy street riders" get away with it a lot of the time - until they need the extra grip.
Keith Code also discusses many of the other benefits of positive throttle control, such as settling the suspension down, improving handling, etc. I'm not going to re-produce the chapter, but invite those interested to read it for themselves. The Keith Code books are quite cheap to buy from amazon.com.

But I didn't do things right, because I came off. Pretty obvious really. I am definitely going to be continuing to use positive throttle on corners, as everything I've read and been told suggest this is best. But perhaps I need to consider not putting myself in the place of needing to blip so hard. In my case, I should probably have just remained in second.ever heard the saying
a little knowledge is a dangerous thing

[p.dath]

This is quite a good post about why you should be using positive throttle into a corner, the effect of the rear end rising and the steering sharpening. It also talks about gentle throttle roll on (avoid compression lock as mentioned by Mom):
http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3909404&postcount=40

[boomer]

Here's my advice to you, be set up for the corner way in advance (you and the bike). Slow in, fast out.

Then, when you're confidence and basic handling skills have grown some, you can practice road craft...

[Motu]

wanting to maintain a positive throttle throughout the corner.
you should be on positive throttle as soon as you can - don't wait till the apex. .

It doesn't mean getting hard on the gas,it's only just a lifting of the throttle,and then gradually applying more.It's a subtle thing,doing it at 9 grand in 1st gear is not subtle.

[YellowDog]

I would suggest that with all this practical reading PD will eventually evolve into a an excellent motorcycle rider.
(just hope he manages to cross that chasm)

[p.dath]

ever heard the saying
a little knowledge is a dangerous thing

Alas (unless you choose to learn nothing) everyone has to start with a small seed of knowledge until it grows.


Here's my advice to you, be set up for the corner way in advance (you and the bike). Slow in, fast out.

Then, when you're confidence and basic handling skills have grown some, you can practice road craft...

You are of course, correct. The difficulty with confidence is knowing when you over-estimate it - but luckily a non-injury accident helps reset that.

[SixPackBack]

I would suggest that with all this practical reading PD will eventually evolve into a an excellent motorcycle rider.
(just hope he manages to cross that chasm)
You think?.....I predict that if his ability to over analyse extended to sex, that post coitus his victim would lie totally unsatisfied while he washes his cock with Dettol.

[Bikemad]

was meaning you seem to have all the knowledge on hand but i think applying it in all the wrong ways and when its probably not necessary.... re positive throttle,clutchless changes,gettin ya wieght round the bike etc....... unless your caning it.
Anyway its all a learning curve for me too i freely admit.
Get your bike sorted and i look forward to meetin you on a ride one day then i guess i can make a more informed judgment on your skills and vice versa

[Smifffy]

Wow. Taken a bit to catch up with this thread. If I remember correctly in the OP it was stated that the corner wasn't particularly challenging or outrageous. On my "delivery" ride home around the Rotorua lakes in the rain, I'm fairly sure that I didn't go down to 1st gear even going around the 35Km/h posted hairpin.

Admittedly I had a car up my arse, and was feeling a little nervous, and have a couple of hundred cc and a v-twin, so perhaps that's what these days means I'm a lazy rider, or perhaps a careful one.

If the corner was more of a bend as the OP stated, I'm surprised it needed to be taken any lower than 3rd, much less chopping down to 1st at 9k revs. I don't think I would even try that in a straight line, let alone a corner, maybe I'd surprise myself - good thing I don't have a tacho <_<.

A lot of conflicting advice in here for a born-again noob, but it seems to get a little clearer as more info comes out. Thanks for sharing.

[boomer]

You think?.....I predict that if his ability to over analyse extended to sex, that post coitus his victim would lie totally unsatisfied while he washes his cock with Dettol.


life sure would be one big dilemma after another huh...

[rocketman1]

For some reason after a few hours riding, and being in second gear for sometime I went from second to first, instead of to 3rd. Dont ask me why I dont know, but I'm admitting to it., dumb aye .
Yeah the back wheel started to lock up bit and snake, but I pulled the clutch in, and changed back up.
Seemed to save the day for me.

On thinking about it I think what happened is as I was in second gear in a line of slow traffic, it wasnt a change of gear but my foot hitting the gear change lever down when I was actually trying to put my foot underneath to flick it up. Only done it once,....I know what your on about

[The Stranger]

he's deadly serious. Thats whats so hilarious about this whole thread and the idiots supporting him. But im the one in need of help, so i'll congratulate him again and ask who his tuTor/mentor is ... So i can stEAR fookIN CLEAR OF THE muppet(s) !

For the sake of clarification - it wasn't me.

[The Stranger]

You think?.....I predict that if his ability to over analyse extended to sex, that post coitus his victim would lie totally unsatisfied while he washes his cock with Dettol.

He rides a Honda, can't be too careful with the whole hygene thing after anal sex I expect.

[The Stranger]

Not so much max power; but wanting to maintain a positive throttle throughout the corner. The Keith Code books talk about this quite a bit as well (I refer your attention to "A Twist of the wrist II", chapter 5 - Throttle control).



Exactly how positive did Keith intend?
I would have thought you could get away with just a smidgen less that absolute peak power perhaps?

[Hahn]

Not so much max power; but wanting to maintain a positive throttle throughout the corner. The Keith Code books talk about this quite a bit as well (I refer your attention to "A Twist of the wrist II", chapter 5 - Throttle control).

He discusses what he calls "street lazy" riders who delay applying positive throttle till 2/3 of the way through the corner.
Basically the theory is if you take the total contact patch of both your tyres, you optimally want 40% of the total contact patch being made with the front tyre, and 60% wth the rear tyre. This gives you the most grip. And you can only achieve this by having positive throttle.
He says you should be on positive throttle as soon as you can - don't wait till the apex. He basically infers that "lazy street riders" get away with it a lot of the time - until they need the extra grip.
Keith Code also discusses many of the other benefits of positive throttle control, such as settling the suspension down, improving handling, etc. I'm not going to re-produce the chapter, but invite those interested to read it for themselves. The Keith Code books are quite cheap to buy from amazon.com.

But I didn't do things right, because I came off. Pretty obvious really. I am definitely going to be continuing to use positive throttle on corners, as everything I've read and been told suggest this is best. But perhaps I need to consider not putting myself in the place of needing to blip so hard. In my case, I should probably have just remained in second.

You realise you can do "40/60%" in sixth gear right..... especially at 70km/hr

[p.dath]

You realise you can do "40/60%" in sixth gear right..... especially at 70km/hr

I'm guessing my bike would be doing about 3kRPM (maybe 4kRPM) in sixth at 70km/h. It is gutless with the revs that low.

Or are you saying that you need only a tiny amount of power to achieve 40/60?

[HenryDorsetCase]

, seem to have put a pin hole sized hole in the left hand side of the crank case. It now has a very slow oil link.

http://www.jbweld.net/index.php


this is good stuff. you can plug up the gap, and file and sand it back, give it some paint and you'd never know it had been damaged.

You'll need to read the instructions first. Getting it clean is the hardest part. Dishwasher (DONT tell your mum) is good.

[p.dath]

Exactly how positive did Keith intend?
I would have thought you could get away with just a smidgen less that absolute peak power perhaps?

As I said, it's obvious I made a mistake, and Keith Code's books do have a focus on road racing so some moderation of what is said is needed.

[pc220]

You realise you can do "40/60%" in sixth gear right..... especially at 70km/hr

That is what I thought,maybe the Bandit is just a bit more useable down low.Im not try to citisice p.dath at all,i am probably the noob of all noobs. But from what i can gather you are probably just setting yourself up for the corner a little too late and not leaving enough time or space to allow for the unexpected.

[The Stranger]

Dishwasher (DONT tell your mum) is good.

Now that's gold.
There's a message somewhere in there pdath, see if you can figure it out.

[quickbuck]

Exactly how positive did Keith intend?
I would have thought you could get away with just a smidgen less that absolute peak power perhaps?

Keith Code talks of "Cracking" the throttle.
This is NOT flick the thing with your wrist like a stock whip, BUT more of taking up the cable slack so the butterflies are just open, allowering the needles to rise...
Just a smidgen.

Now, about CBR600 F's.... It will actually potter around at 40km/hr in top gear!
There is tonnes of torque for an IL4, and 9000 RPM you are about to start getting into the power..... The REAL power.
Below that though, there is actually plenty!

BUT p.dath, Keith Code talks about "Lazy Street Riders"... What you should read by that, is at times there is nothing wrong with being "Lazy" on the street.
You don't actually have to ride at 100% of the bikes capabilities 100% of the time!

I agree the "Book" gives you some excillent advise, but at the end of the day we don't all have to be Rossi's of the street.
So long as you are riding "Properly" on the road, there is no problem with being "Lazy".

[vifferman]

http://www.jbweld.net/index.php


this is good stuff. you can plug up the gap, and file and sand it back, give it some paint and you'd never know it had been damaged.

You'll need to read the instructions first. Getting it clean is the hardest part. Dishwasher (DONT tell your mum) is good.
Phark, you beat me to it.
Don't need the dishwasher though (save her for some after-dark antics...)
Just clean it with kero, folllow up with brakecleaner. That's what I did with my crankcase cover (there's a thread here somewhere - find it yourself, you lazy sods) after some unco-rordinated dickehead couldn't handle braking, turning, indicating and opening the gargre door all at the same time and dropped the VifFerraRi on the one catseye outside the house.....
Saved me US$185 for a new one. :niceone:

[Hahn]

I'm guessing my bike would be doing about 3kRPM (maybe 4kRPM) in sixth at 70km/h. It is gutless with the revs that low.

Or are you saying that you need only a tiny amount of power to achieve 40/60?

That's it exactly.

[steve_t]

Basically the theory is if you take the total contact patch of both your tyres, you optimally want 40% of the total contact patch being made with the front tyre, and 60% wth the rear tyre. This gives you the most grip. And you can only achieve this by having positive throttle.

I remember when you wrote this some time last year. It has helped me with cornering immensely along with the countersteering thread from ages ago. The main help was because I was braking entering the corner and only rolled the throttle on midcorner which doesn't afford a smooth corner. Now I tend to get off the brakes earlier and roll on the throttle early and the bike is so much more stable and I reckon I can carry a little more speed through the corner :niceone:
Like I said before, lesson learnt. Time to move forward

[Jonno.]

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[OutForADuck]

So this is my question. Lets say you do experience a rear wheel lock through either a change down or compression lock (sorry Mom, still haven't figured out what that is yet), and especially considering your about to enter a corner, do you think your better to:

* Apply more power to start the wheel rotating again
* Engage the clutch so the wheel spins freely, but accept the bikes suspension will now be upset, the front wheel is suddenly going to load up, and as a result most of the bikes traction is going to now be reliant on the front wheel rather than split between the two.

My personal guess would be to apply more throttle, which is what I did. After reading the Keith Code books I think he would also agree.

However comments on here have me wondering if this was the wrong approach. Your thoughts, and most importantly, why. And in case it varies between bikes, I'd prefer answers more tailored to a sports bike.

Throttle... a lock due to a botched downshift is only temporary... so it will spin even if you don't get on the throttle.

Soooo... don't agressively screw on the power... just add it like you intended too... make sure the wheel is turning before you do (unless you are comfortable with backing it in and you a bit off that at the moment dude). If you are getting your braking over and done with in a straight line you have time for all this, trailing brake is an advanced technique and probably best left on the track.

So roll on throttle, get it hooked up and take the corner.. you may have a different line now, but you have allowed room for this on the road right?

[Katman]

This thread is a prime example of someone not being able to figure out that the only way 'skills' learned at a trackday or ART day have any valuable transferance to the road are as a means to help get you out of danger - not for putting yourself in a position of increased danger.

[imdying]

p.dath, what you need is a new Fireblade :yes:

No matter how badly you abuse it down through the box, the slipper clutch prevents the rear wheel from locking up. You don't need to 'crack the throttle open a little', it does that for you too (MV F4s do it to IIRC). You can't lock the brakes, it's combined ABS. You don't have to apply throttle when filtering up through lines of traffic, it does that for you automatically. Still no self cancelling indicators, but you can't have everything. Telepathic link between brain and bike appears to be standard, but no mention of it in the sales literature. All those gizmos, and it still weighs a good few pies less than all the other whales in the class.

Some faggot will soon pop in to say that it's too much bike blah blah blah... ignore the fun police, they can suck it.




Seriously though, all that crap will be standard on everything (600 and thou sportsbikes) in 3-4 years... surely this will eat at the learning of basic skills in new riders?? I mean, everyone needs to at least learn how to control a snaking rear wheel on a hard braking bike, even if the newer bikes don't do it any more.

[jared]

Ummm,
Nope.

It means he gives the throttle a twist to increase engine revs to match the lower gear.
This reduces the chances of the engine braking locking the rear....

Thank yoooooou. Yelled the mouse from his house

[John_H]

Can someone tell me what blipping is please!

[sil3nt]

http://www.sportrider.com/ride/rss/146_0402_shift_blip_throttle/index.html

[R-Soul]

Compression lock up is this: When your engine is doing teh driving of tehback wheel, it comprsses air/fuel and ignites it to create drive at eth wheel. But without the throttle on, and the clutch engaged, the back wheel is driving rotation of the engine. The engine ceases to work as an engine, and starts acting like a compressor, comprssing air in the cylinders and pushing it out the exhaust. It takes effort to compress teh air. this effort is taken from the kinetic enrgy of the bike driving the back wheel via friction forces at the back wheel. This is why you get engine braking. Sometimes the effort required to overcome teh comprssion resistance in the cylinders is too much for the traction, and the wheel will rather lock up and lose traction than contiue driving the compression.

Hence "compression lock up".

The higher the rev's, the more compression that happens, because of the increased air resistance through the exhaust (higher air speed = increased drag).

You could probably have turned the bars in the direction of the slide if you had dirt bike skills, and saved it (or not- who knows?).

IMO (for what its worth) you probably should not have turned in before changing down, because the compression braking has teh effect of back braking hard in the corner, and destabilises the bike. First change down early, stabilise bike, and then turn in.