Update on running a kids grade. [Archive]

all4A50s

30th January 2010, 06:25

I have heard back from Wayne from Kartsport Wellington and they have agreed to let the kids out during meets with the buckets.

I have asked for the next meet the kids go out at lunch time (as I am unsure about the numbers) and be there at 11 am to have their bikes scrutineered.

This is what I have proposed for the kids grade;
This grade is for 7-12 year olds.

The first lap would have them follow an adult around on their bikes. Followed by 3-5 laps with a flag start on their own.

They are not allowed to pass on corners and can only pass on the straights a with a wide gap/on the other side of the track.

The gear the kids wear must at least be the following; helmet, gloves, body protector, gumboots or riding boots and good fitting clothing.

Their bikes will need to be scrutineered.

At the end of year they would get a certificate of completion, with placings awarded for the amount of times they have been out, not where they finish at the end of each session. As this is a learning
experience.

I do have one question for you all to consider. Would we want a new rider out at the same time, regardless of age?

Buckets4Me

30th January 2010, 07:10

I do have one question for you all to consider. Would we want a new rider out at the same time, regardless of age?

in B grade with HiVis vest on :)
and maby only in practice or prelim till they prove they are semi capabill
and with a big warning that anyone hit's them and knocks them off it's home time

Trudes

30th January 2010, 07:58

And if only 2 kids turn up? Why could this have not just stayed a Slipway thing where there is less pressure on EVERYBODY!? How much will it cost each child to ride? Will you need flag marshals for them?
Seriously, if you want to organise a kids grade, keep it at the Slipway. If you want to teach your kids to ride, get them riding about in a paddock or take them to motorcross or something where it doesn't matter so much if they fall off. Honestly, I don't know your kids so well, but I do know generally what little girls are like, there's a very very good chance if they crash and hurt themselves it will damage their confidence and they may never want to do it again, or they will get really embarassed at falling off and crying in front of a big crowd, and never want to do it again. Let them build some confidence where it's not going to matter so much first.

Henk

30th January 2010, 08:02

I do have one question for you all to consider. Would we want a new rider out at the same time, regardless of age?

From experience running trail rides I'd suggest this is a bad idea. We had dedicated kids tracks and when faster MX kids went out and started turning hot laps or an adult went out and did the same most of the kids the track was targeted at would stop riding. Not because anything dangerous was going on but simply because they felt intimidated. I'd also re-think the gumboots if you feel you can. I know off road is different with tree stumps and the like but gummies offer all the crash protection of a pair of jandals.

Yow Ling

30th January 2010, 08:06

The gear the kids wear must at least be the following; helmet, gloves, body protector, gumboots or riding boots and good fitting clothing.

Is this really a high enough standard?. And who is in the gun when there is a serious accident, this is not the same as having an accident at home.

Kendog

30th January 2010, 08:28

I have heard back from Wayne from Kartsport Wellington and they have agreed to let the kids out during meets with the buckets.

I have asked for the next meet the kids go out at lunch time (as I am unsure about the numbers) and be there at 11 am to have their bikes scrutineered.

Why are you so desperate to get your kids riding at Kaitoke?

I have only been in buckets for a couple of years, during this time we have always had a kids/learner grade at Slipway. Slipway seems to be a far better place for kids to learn to ride/race. It's flat, easy to see end to end, easy to pass, corners are normally not to technical.
Kaitkoe is a pretty difficult track to ride, we need to be very careful with bikes damaging the track and it's a long way to the other end of the track if someone falls off.

So my question is, what is wrong with Slipway as a venue for what you have described?

Number One

30th January 2010, 09:31

all4A50s

30th January 2010, 19:17

I think this is a bad idea frankly. ESPECIALLY AT KAITOKE!

Secondly the minute you have a flag start the kids are racing - dodgy as far as I am concerned considering there is an age limit for Bucket racing.

As for saying they can't pass on corners and only on straights when they have lots of room either side - PASS ME A TUI - the adults can't even manage that at Kaitoke and you are expecting hotted up inexperienced little kids to manage it.

What will MNZ have to say - aren't bucket Kaitoke meets under them now?

Yeah bad bad bad move I reckon oh and also as I plan to be racing buckets again next year may I ask who will be giving up 'their PAID for track time' to accomodate a kids grade - for what at the moment sounds like a sum total of YOUR KIDS? ESPECIALLY when there are so many other avenues available to get them out on bikes and learning outside of having them riding at Bucket events.

I have asked for a price for the kids to enter from the kartsport people so they will be paying for their time.
At first it'll only be during the lunch break as no one is using the track then so it won't take away from anyone else time. If there is enough kids I'll look into having multiple session for them.

The passing only on straights is a way to ensure the kids can concentarte on getting around the corners and all are aware of when passing can happen. It's worked up at the Slipway all last year without incident.

I like the idea of doing a flagged start as a nice way for the kids to go off. We'll see one the day how many kids there are.

I'm still waiting to hear back from MNZ about such things happening. From what I can gather after informally talking to various people who have run events/involved with MNZ as long it is seen only as learning or educational experience they don't seem to have a problem with it.

For me this is a way to get more people into this from a young age into this sport (not forgetting their parents might have a go too). I know my daughters are keen to have a turn and have some interest from other through work. I wouldn't dream of taking away from other people's time and please tell me where there is other places they can ride motorbikes on a track/road in an organised event as i haven't found any.

all4A50s

30th January 2010, 19:21

Why are you so desperate to get your kids riding at Kaitoke?

So my question is, what is wrong with Slipway as a venue for what you have described?

Unless there has been a change to the calendar I could only find four dates at the Slipway.

Skunk

30th January 2010, 21:03

MNZ are NOT involved in Kaitoke except for special events. DO NOT involve them.

Trudes

31st January 2010, 07:17

That's the thing though, At The Moment you're talking about lunch times when it won't effect our already limited track time at Kaitoke, and then what? You do start cutting into it? I'm fairly sure last time you ran this past the people who would it would effect, the OTHER bucketers, the general consencous was to leave it alone, do it at the slipway or find another venue, like we did when we sorted out Kaitoke.
Please listen George, I suspect you may end up pissing off and alienating many people if you push this too hard.
Become a Kart club member, buy a key and let your kids ride there on YOUR time if you're so desperate to get them to ride there, or do what everyone else has to do, wait til they are old enough.
The other option is to talk to Bayden, find out what the deal is with the Slipway owners and see if you can organise having a few extra days there to run this.
There may be a very good reason why there aren't any clubs or places that run a similar thing for under 12s...... had a think about why?
Think about doing motorcross, they'd learn more there anyway (you keep saying it's about learning, they would learn more about riding, bikes and racing at motocross than they would riding about on a tarsealed track), then when they're old enough they'd have the mean skills and come and kick all us old folks butts.http://www.hondakidsclub.co.nz/

Number One

31st January 2010, 11:28

I like the idea, for me this is....blah blah blah

As per usual George you seem to miss addressing many of the points made by others and seemingly you have no answer for them either....I've highlighted some of them below so you can pick up on and consider them more easily....

And if only 2 kids turn up?.... Why could this have not just stayed a Slipway thing where there is less pressure on EVERYBODY!?....Will you need flag marshals for them?

re-think the gumboots ..... gummies offer all the crash protection of a pair of jandals.

who is in the gun when there is a serious accident, this is not the same as having an accident at home.
(THIS ONE IN PARTICULAR I THINK IS CRITICAL TO consider...WE ARE TALKING ABOUT KIDS here after all and keeping in mind the below too! IT is a very long way to walk injured pushing a bike from across that track at Kaitoke and if no one sees you go down (like what would probably happen during a 'lunch break') you can be out there by yourself head spinning for quite a while with no assistance...I know this from experience)

Kaitoke is a pretty difficult track to ride, we need to be very careful with bikes damaging the track and it's a long way to the other end of the track if someone falls off.

BTW why do kids need to take part in 'organised track/road RACING events' to learn how to ride and ride better anyway - there is shit loads of tarmack around the place available for this purpose after all.

NSR143

31st January 2010, 20:25

I think it is essential to get kids on our kart tracks, anyone dealt with should already ride, they wear full leathers and all the proper gear. Its very daft a young person can ride a 85cc MX bike and not a bucket for starters. And their dads would spend less time cleaning mud off .... that i am sure some would appreciate. NZ is lagging behind the world in respect of kids on tarmac. This needs to be taken up properly at an MNZ discussion group at AGM time... like it or not it will make the biggest difference if we have MNZ approval and appropriate rules for the class.

quallman1234

31st January 2010, 20:38

George, your intentions are good.
Kaitoke isn't the place to be doing it. Alot of effort has gone into getting us there, and it could easily be undone.
Keep it for slipway, or buy a key for your own kids.

Kendog

31st January 2010, 20:42

I think it is essential to get kids on our kart tracks, anyone dealt with should already ride,
Problem is, that is not what is being suggested here. The topic of 'kids' at Kaitoke was raised as somewhere for them to learn how to ride.

they wear full leathers and all the proper gear.
Also not suggested here.

Its very daft a young person can ride a 85cc MX bike and not a bucket for starters. And their dads would spend less time cleaning mud off .... that i am sure some would appreciate. NZ is lagging behind the world in respect of kids on tarmac. This needs to be taken up properly at an MNZ discussion group at AGM time... like it or not it will make the biggest difference if we have MNZ approval and appropriate rules for the class.
You may be right, but there must have been some rationale for the age decision made. No harm in asking MNZ the question in the appropriate forum.

Kaitkoe Kart club have only just allowed buckets back on their track. I would hate to see that put at risk when there is already a perfectly good alternative location for the kids to try 'racing'.

I am 100% against Kaitkoe being used in any form of 'learn to ride a bike' capacity. Kaitoke is a race track for racing. We are damn lucky to have the privilege of racing our buckets there, lets not f it up.

Trudes

31st January 2010, 20:55

With all due respect, unless you will be involved in possibly having this effect YOUR race days and a venue that you and a few others worked hard to be allowed back to I'm not entirely sure you can comment without knowing the entire story here. By all means start a kids class in the HB and see how you get on. You are entirely correct that the kids should be encouraged to give it a go etc and should be properly outfitted. In Wellington we generally don't run our racing through MNZ, so this all has nothing to do with them.

I think it is essential to get kids on our kart tracks, anyone dealt with should already ride, they wear full leathers and all the proper gear. Its very daft a young person can ride a 85cc MX bike and not a bucket for starters. And their dads would spend less time cleaning mud off .... that i am sure some would appreciate. NZ is lagging behind the world in respect of kids on tarmac. This needs to be taken up properly at an MNZ discussion group at AGM time... like it or not it will make the biggest difference if we have MNZ approval and appropriate rules for the class.

Trudes

31st January 2010, 21:09

nudemetalz

31st January 2010, 21:26

George.

I worked hard last year to get Kaitoke for all of the bucket racers to race it. I spent a lot of hours putting it all together. It has gone very well so far, please do not jeopardise it for others.
The idea of kids there on bikes is harebrained to say the least. Trudes, Kendog, No.1 are all on the right track.
Please listen to them.

NSR143

31st January 2010, 22:07

yeah my point was really generalizing on the subject, if you have local issues that another story ay.. We in HB are working on it ourselves.

F5 Dave

1st February 2010, 09:02

Totally agree with Nudez & the rest. This sounds like a sure fire way to stop racing in wgtn, as soon as a kid gets hurt there would be hell to pay & people would be running for cover including the kart club (fair enough too).

Kickaha

1st February 2010, 10:10

as soon as a kid gets hurt there would be hell to pay & people would be running for cover including the kart club (fair enough too).

Especially if they're not wearing full protective gear

woodyracer

1st February 2010, 15:24

Number One

1st February 2010, 17:54

Oh and George, could you not have started this discussion in the Wellington Bucket Social group? That's what it's there for. Or is it not actually a discussion with the people it will effect directly what you were after?

I think I know the answer to that....George didn't mean for it to be a 'discussion' he was merely informing us of HIS plans....

hmurphy

1st February 2010, 23:16

A couple of these comments should have been sent to George as a PM. Don't attack people on a public forum.

My brother wants to have a crack at racing for sure. We have gear for him and I have been teaching him how to ride in car parks etc. Once I am sure he will be able to ride around the back of a B grade practice session and/or race then I would like to see him have a crack at it. Slipway will be the place to test this though. Far less is risked and I know he will be happy enough just getting to be out on the bike and to tell his friends he 'races motorbikes'. - My opinion.

Kendog

2nd February 2010, 05:04

A couple of these comments should have been sent to George as a PM. Don't attack people on a public forum.
A non public location was set up for just that process (Wellington bucket social group). The public forum was chosen to tell us what was happening, so the public forum is where the responses should go.

My brother wants to have a crack at racing for sure. We have gear for him and I have been teaching him how to ride in car parks etc. Once I am sure he will be able to ride around the back of a B grade practice session and/or race then I would like to see him have a crack at it. Slipway will be the place to test this though. Far less is risked and I know he will be happy enough just getting to be out on the bike and to tell his friends he 'races motorbikes'. - My opinion.
Bingo. What you are doing with your brother is brilliant. As long as he doesn't beat me in B grade then all good :innocent::laugh:

hmurphy

2nd February 2010, 10:36

A non public location was set up for just that process (Wellington bucket social group). The public forum was chosen to tell us what was happening, so the public forum is where the responses should go.

Not worried about people's side they choose on his idea and explaining why. But he isn't abusing anyone else so comments that aren't expressing support or otherwise for the kids grade idea aren't really necessary, especially when the comment is to make someone feel bad or stupid infront of the bucket community (not to mention the many others who read up about buckets). A Personal Message would keep your opinion of the person private and this thread about the issue (kids grade) public.

Bingo. What you are doing with your brother is brilliant. As long as he doesn't beat me in B grade then all good

Haha he's getting better. He wants to get his 'knee down'. Hopefully he will be up to going out for a few laps at the next Slipway meeting.

FROSTY

2nd February 2010, 10:37

Folks I read this thread from end to end and I must say the general feeling of negativity from you lot initially had me going --do what??
Setting aside the odvious issues with riding gear which MUST be addressed I agree totally.
In my opinion IN THEORY the idea is fucking fantastic. ACTUALLY more than that totally brilliant.

BEFORE you lot flame me think this through.
Road racing in New zealand is not exactly a booming sport.Offroad though is just flying in comparison.
WHY??
Because kids as young as 5 can start mini moto racing. It grows from there.
its a family affair--ALL the family gets ro ride or race.
A chance to get young riders into road racing rather than motocross--HELL YEA.
PLEASE DON'T go on about how dangerous bucket racing is because thats a total crock.
In europe kids are road racing at a very young age (on the equivilant of buckets) and if you have ever been to an MX event then you will have seen how fast a 9 year old can ride and just how high they can jump a bike.
In comparisson to MX mini road racing is pretty darn safe.
if someone can grab this idea by the balls and find a safe way to make it work I'll support it.
As for MNZ In this case I say fuck em. Theres a bigger picture and if you want to see that bigger picture at work have a look at what Oyster and his crew manage with 13 year olds in the breaks in the south island road race meetings. Or if given the chance look and see the size of the junior race meetings in spain,italy and the likes

Trudes

2nd February 2010, 10:48

I couldn't see any comments directed at making George feel bad as a person, comments saying the idea he's trying to push through with little or no support from the people, yes, but I couldn't see where anybody attacked him personally. Surely George is big enough not to take anything that has been said personally as it's the idea we're not keen on, it's just like if I came on here and said "right I'm starting a grade at buckets, I've already talked to the Kart club and they're fine with it. You have to wear a skirt, high heels and full make-up to be able to ride in it" there would be an uproar and people would say that's a stupid idea and there's no way in hell they'll support it, I wouldn't take it personally, merely that nobody likes my idea, so maybe I should drop it. Like we said, if you want to keep a topic within the realms of the Welly bucket community then address it through the social group.

Trudes

2nd February 2010, 11:04

Like I said earlier, there is more to this than meets the eye.
Where the OP is proposing to start this up is at a kart track that only last year we received permission to be allowed back to after a fair amount of negotiation from one of our members with the support of the rest of us. Here we run our meets WITH the karts, so that usually entails we be there for sign in by 9am and we get to run two grades of buckets (numbers allowing and for our own safety, there is a massive gap in speeds between the fastest A grade riders and the slowest B grade riders). Generally we get a practice session and 4 races of usually about 10 minutes each. That is with about at least an hour of waiting about between so the karts can run their races. So you see, it's not like we have the track to ourselves on the days that are being proposed, we have to fit in around the kart schedule and try and fit in two grades of buckets as well, so time is short and putting in an extra grade for 4 or 5 kids to ride about is not really logical or fair on the kart drivers, who afterall, it is their days and we're lucky enough to be allowed to share. It's a fairly long and technical track which to be safe needs flag marshalls at most of the points. I personally don't have a major issue with the kids using the track at lunchtimes, however the OP said that the plan was to extend it to having a class run like A and B grades. This also wouldn't be a major issue if we decided to run our own bucket days at the track, we'd have plenty of time to fit in a grade for the kids or learners, however we then run into costs and organisatiuon issues, MNZ issues etc etc, and this is only done for very special occasions like our Easter event and our enduro.
The other point is we actually have two tracks we race at, the other track is a flat tarsealed runway type of set up where we make our own track. Here we have C grade run as well and we have the the whole place to ourselves. This is a better place to run kids "races" for them to learn, the entire track can be seen from either end and a suitable track can be made for the kids. We are suggesting to the OP that this would be a better place for him to develop the idea, it will get more support, not cut into the kart club's time on THEIR race days and generally be safer.

Folks I read this thread from end to end and I must say the general feeling of negativity from you lot initially had me going --do what??
Setting aside the odvious issues with riding gear which MUST be addressed I agree totally.
In my opinion IN THEORY the idea is fucking fantastic. ACTUALLY more than that totally brilliant.

BEFORE you lot flame me think this through.
Road racing in New zealand is not exactly a booming sport.Offroad though is just flying in comparison.
WHY??
Because kids as young as 5 can start mini moto racing. It grows from there.
its a family affair--ALL the family gets ro ride or race.
A chance to get young riders into road racing rather than motocross--HELL YEA.
PLEASE DON'T go on about how dangerous bucket racing is because thats a total crock.
In europe kids are road racing at a very young age (on the equivilant of buckets) and if you have ever been to an MX event then you will have seen how fast a 9 year old can ride and just how high they can jump a bike.
In comparisson to MX mini road racing is pretty darn safe.
if someone can grab this idea by the balls and find a safe way to make it work I'll support it.
As for MNZ In this case I say fuck em. Theres a bigger picture and if you want to see that bigger picture at work have a look at what Oyster and his crew manage with 13 year olds in the breaks in the south island road race meetings. Or if given the chance look and see the size of the junior race meetings in spain,italy and the likes

FROSTY

2nd February 2010, 11:27

Thanks Trudes for the logical well thought out reply. i hear where you are coming from and your arguments have merit.(sorry not intended to sound patronising in any way)
On that basis I agree with your concerns. --Ie basicly --dion't piss off the kart guys or you'll all miss out. fair call
BUT The IDEA is so good,GREAT--NO---- FANTASTIC It would be a shame to throw the idea away.

I do wonder though if his idea of a lunchtime session at the kart track might have merit from the simple point of view of capturing peoples imagination.
--Im just tossin an idea out here. A top F5/F4 bike at the very outside would cost say $1500 if you just tossed money at it left right n centre. Set of gear. $1000. --That would last a kid 3 years and be able to be passed down to lil bro/sis
Compare that to what the MX guys pay OR --and heres the twist--THE KART guys pay and its got real apeal.

Trudes

2nd February 2010, 11:34

Absolutely Frosty, I agree with you, and like I said, personally I'm fine with it being run at lunchtimes, as long as that's where it stays when we are at Kaitoke on Kart days, AND providing the kids have proper protective riding gear and their bikes have been properly scrutineered with proper nylon etc for protecting the track.

Skunk

2nd February 2010, 11:52

A top F5/F4 bike at the very outside would cost say $1500 if you just tossed money at it left right n centre. Set of gear. $1000. --That would last a kid 3 years and be able to be passed down to lil bro/sis
Compare that to what the MX guys pay OR --and heres the twist--THE KART guys pay and its got real apeal.Trouble is the top F4/F5 bikes cost (are worth) way more than $1500. You can get a competitive Bucket for that, but not a top bike.

The main thrust here is the Kart guys will get in a lot of trouble if anything goes pear shaped*, and we have a perfect venue (with time to spare) elsewhere.

*Note: MNZ do not allow under 13 year olds on a race track so that alone sets a benchmark of safety in the eyes on the law (should it come to that) - even without involving MNZ.

andrew a

2nd February 2010, 11:54

Hi all I had better put in my 2 cents wourth. I have 3 wonderfull children. Im OK to let one of them race in the B grade [and win some races sorry Nigel]. He thinks it would be a great sport for dad to get him into. Dad is not so shure. The other 2 love the thought of blasting around the slipway in between races. Im OK for this to continue. I would not like them to partisapate at Kaitoki unless they were able to go in the B grade. I feel the days are long enough with out another event. The slipway is a great place and time to do it. I also take my children out to learn basic skills with out pressure of people watching or bikes braking. That is mostly on grass.
If it was a bike only day it may be different. The effort needed to nylon up the bikes would not apeal to me. We need to be mindfull of the Kart people.
Its a fantastic place to ride as regular as we do. I do not want to risk loosing it.
PS can ride bikes cant spell.

Kickaha

2nd February 2010, 12:47

*Note: MNZ do not allow under 13 year olds on a race track so that alone sets a benchmark of safety in the eyes on the law (should it come to that) - even without involving MNZ.

They do from age 10 (young junior road race), but certain criteria have to be met with the tracks

Rule 15-2-3
Young Junior Road race riders from their 10th birthday until their 13th birthday
shall be allowed to compete in the Young Junior road race class.

15-17-2 Young Junior Road race competitors are required to have competition licences.Applications for these licences will follow the same system to that for junior licences including using the same application form Refer rule 15-2-1.

15-17- 3 Motorcycle technical specifications.

15-17-3-1 Solo motorcycles shall have the following capacities F5 2 stroke engine only (rule 24-2-1 only 8.00 hp maximum). Measured at back wheel.

15-17-3-2 Engines must be derived from a non-competition motorcycles and produce less than 8.00 HP measured at the back wheel. Machines may be impounded and checked at the discretion of the Steward. Motocross, road racing, enduro and go-kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. All engines must be naturally aspirated.

15-17-3-3 All machines must be fitted with an operational tether kill switch. The tether kill switch must not be fitted in such a way that may be over ridden and must be attached to the rider.

15-17-3-4 Circuits – All racing for this class will be conducted on circuits with a maximum average speed of 40 kph and a maximum speed of up to 60 kph. Circuits will generally be those utilized by Go Karts, closed industrial type car parks. Racing for the class is specifically prohibited from Pukekohe Raceway, Centenial Park, Manfeild, Ruapuna, Levels and Teretonga in their normal configuration. If the above circuits can safely be modified or altered to accommodate the 40kph average and the 60kph maximum speed to the stewards satisfaction then these circuits may be used.

15-17-3-4a When a young junior road race competitor has completed ten events, as recorded in their competition licence book they may apply to the steward to be allowed to race where the maximum speed of 60kph is relaxed and a maximum of 90kph will apply. If the steward deems that this rider requires more time at the lower speed maximum then the rider must stay at that level until the steward is satisfied the rider may progress.

FROSTY

2nd February 2010, 12:56

Dude i agree with you and trudes except to introduce the thought about lighting the germ of an idea that I posted above.

As for not letting under 13 year olds race. Mate as far as I'm concerned MNZ have their heads up their arses on this subject. Why is it unsafe for a 12 year old to race a 50cc bucket yet totally safe to race a 85cc full race spec'd MX bike?
is is because its safer or is it because the offroad guys said--"tough shit we're doing it"?
Why is it "safe" for a child to race a kart?? -they can and DO flip
Why is it that elsewhere in the world a 13 year old has already done 3 seasons full mini racing?

And road racing in NZ is struggling to get numbers--why?

Gear wise a child in Full MX armour and an old set of leathers safety wise at slipway/mt wellington Would offer good protection. I'd be thinking simply due to availability that kids should be able use MX lids and goggles-Peaks removed fromthe lids. Mind you I havent exactly struggled to get lids for my kids.
There are truck loads of old sets of leathers gathering dust in guys wardrobes because the leathers "shrunk"
I know this for fact because my fella ended up with 3 sets of older leathers donated to him. (thank you guys)
it would have a roll on effect. As a kid outgrew the gear they'd pass it on to the next kid.
Folks I beg of you don't let the idea go just because the person pushing it is doing it in the wrong way.

From MY POV---how good would Sam Smith, K14, Sctechy racer be TODAY if they started road racing in some form when they were 10

F5 Dave

2nd February 2010, 13:23

I think the big point is we have volunteers that help organise & run these events, this is not without responsibility and risk if something goes wrong. I fully support this person/persons in not being pressured into a situation that they are not comfortable with (& is beyond the original remit of getting us racing). These are the people (well it's Skunk really) who would shoulder blame as organiser no matter who's idea it was & promises to take responsibility, it will still be him at the end of the day.

I don't think the argument that it would be good for these riders to start earlier has any relevance here. That isn't what this class was designed to do.

And lets not lose this track. Again.

So what have we got? extra stress & risk, less track time, having to run around & organise more marshals at lunchtime etc & then dealing with parents who lose their rag if little Johny isn't getting the fair deal as far as they see it (even after he turns up in totally unsuitable gear/bike & being pressured to let them ride). If there is one lesson of mini mx it's the parents cause huge issues with the organisers. Doesn't sound like any fun to me. Don't want to burn out our Skunky.

jasonu

2nd February 2010, 13:33

kids are better off jsut having a ride on the practice days, thats how ive seen it done at mt wellington, probualy not the best idea to let them race until they are 13. Just keeps it simple thats all. I rode pocket bikes beofre i turned 13, it was great fun and i got useful skills for the track.

I don't want them there even on practice days. The minimum age rule should be strictly enforced. Waiting to be old enough didn't do Nathaniel Diprose any harm.

Trudes

2nd February 2010, 13:57

I don't want them there even on practice days. The minimum age rule should be strictly enforced. Waiting to be old enough didn't do Nathaniel Diprose any harm.

Exactly. I wanted to drive a car at 12, so my dad taught me to drive a tractor and then a ute on the farm, but I didn't get a drivers licence and drive on the road until I was 15, sat a test and was ALLOWED to. No amount of me or my parents bitching and crying about it would have changed that. Suck it up.

FROSTY

2nd February 2010, 14:27

So you feel then that young riders should go ride MX instead?

F5 Dave

2nd February 2010, 14:42

I feel that it isn't our problem. At what stage did we take on to be responsible for breeding the next world champ? IMO Far too much emphasis is put on trying to "make us all proud" as a sporting nation even if it means grass roots riders are ignored. MNZ are guilty of this. This is the rider's sport.
Of course when my son is old enough to race I'll probably start acting all uppity & someone will need to slap me.

And yeah a start in the dirt is a good start. At what age? Well, leave me out of that argument.

Trudes

2nd February 2010, 14:48

Yes until they're of the age that has been stipulated by "The Rules" whose ever rules you have to abide by. You learn the mad skills and confidence there. So yeah, why not?

FROSTY

2nd February 2010, 15:30

FROSTY

2nd February 2010, 15:39

ACTUALLY FOLKS -- hang on a mo. I just realised i'm doing what i hate others doing to me."someone' has put balls on the line and said ok I'll run bucket meetings. Its his/her show. SORRY
But please if anyone likes the concept then please don't kill it.

Trudes

2nd February 2010, 15:43

Mon theres a phrase in my buisiness.It goes "feed the funnel". The idea being you need a LOT of kids coming in at the top getting into road racing. Do that and our sport will start to grow again.
More people aware,more people turned onto it. More people doing it. I can't see a down side.
How full are the F5 grids at slipway?

We run an A grade which consists of the seriously fast guys and the others who lap most of the B grade field and we have B grade which are the "and then raced", still competitive and the racing can get quite vicious in there, and at Slipway we also have C grade which consists of new riders and kids who are not old enough to race in B grade. This is why we say develop C grade at Slipway, at present it's just whoever turns up tootling about learning how to ride. This time could be used to teach the kids and anyone else who is learning or doesn't feel competent enough to join in B grade. I should think however, that this is something that needs to be taken up with Bayden as Slipway is his responsibility and C grade was originally track time for his kids, so he'd need to be happy for it to be "race time" and his kids would want to join in in that. The kids need to know how to ride a bike for a start though..... walk before you can run. No point teaching them race lines if they can't change gears or brake without falling off (yes, I know, some adults can't even manage that! :laugh:)

FROSTY

2nd February 2010, 15:47

hmm well kickaha has raised a point-- from 10 they can ride a 50cc two srtoke --or F4 bike --dunno how you lot go but why not F4 b grade.

F5 Dave

2nd February 2010, 16:19

ACTUALLY FOLKS -- hang on a mo. I just realised i'm doing what i hate others doing to me."someone' has put balls on the line and said ok I'll run bucket meetings. Its his/her show. SORRY
. . .
Thanks I think that is an important point here.

Kickaha

2nd February 2010, 16:34

As for not letting under 13 year olds race. Mate as far as I'm concerned MNZ have their heads up their arses on this subject. Why is it unsafe for a 12 year old to race a 50cc bucket yet totally safe to race a 85cc full race spec'd MX bike?
is is because its safer or is it because the offroad guys said--"tough shit we're doing it"?
Why is it "safe" for a child to race a kart?? -they can and DO flip
Why is it that elsewhere in the world a 13 year old has already done 3 seasons full mini racing?

You're not comparing apples with apples and I don't know enough regarding the MX classes for the younger riders to comment but
MX have obviously gone through all this before and got rule changes through to allow the younger age group classes, there is no such thing as "just doing it" at an MNZ sanctioned meeting

Karts flip very rarely in the age group we're talking about

Elsewhere in the world they've done 3 full seasons before they're 13 because they have the class structure in place, something we lack in NZ

Of course when my son is old enough to race I'll probably start acting all uppity & someone will need to slap me.
.

I think we should get the slapping practice in now

hmm well kickaha has raised a point-- from 10 they can ride a 50cc two srtoke --or F4 bike --dunno how you lot go but why not F4 b grade.

You would still have to make sure the track complied with the MNZ rules, thats providing it is a permitted meeting otherwise you can do whatever you want but you watch the shit hit the fan as soon as one of the kids gets hurt

Kendog

2nd February 2010, 16:51

Im OK to let one of them race in the B grade [and win some races sorry Nigel].
I have the FXR powers now, he better watch out this year mwahahahahahahah

richban

2nd February 2010, 18:14

Wow what a lot of reading. I have 2 amazing little girls, they rule and when they grow up will school us all on going fast. But that will be a while one is 2 one is 4. There lots of good points all over this hot topic. I know your heart is in the right place George and I think for the future of road racing in this country we need to start young. We are behind the 8 ball. If my girls want to ride I will do what most people do and start them on the dirt/grass. Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMRvWX8NKmM You have to wonder how these 13 year olds got to this level, might be worth looking at the Aussie rider development programs.

FROSTY

2nd February 2010, 18:25

elsewhere in the world they've done 3 full seasons before they're 13 because they have the class structure in place, something we lack in nz
And that is exactly my point. We are way behind the 8 ball. In wellington and Auckland there is an opertunity just begging to be had.
Down your way the main track is pretty easy to get to. In our cases -Auck/wellywood the nearest track is either too far away for this to be practical or is not a safe venue.(or there are those that would argue both)
I'm picturing all those MX mums n dads going "heck yea" at the idea of not having to go to some muddy farmers feild(s) to watch their kids ride. For that matter just how much cleaner road racing is will apeal.(cleaner in bother riding type and muddyness)

Trudes

2nd February 2010, 18:29

They probably also have the numbers to do so. We have enough trouble trying to get enough numbers to make a class at all sometimes when it rains. Maybe the kids class could be run on rainy days only. (I'm kidding).

FROSTY

2nd February 2010, 18:36

BUCKET RACING IT THE RAIN --fun fun fun

Yow Ling

2nd February 2010, 18:46

Just say NO!! Its already getting ugly, talk of mNZ has brought out heaps of good information on why not.
MNZ rules dont allow it, the wider group dosent want it.
Whats wrong with a quick fang up the street after school?
worked for most of us , now we all brilliant riders !

Str8 Jacket

2nd February 2010, 18:47

Fuck MNZ!!!

Kendog

2nd February 2010, 19:30

Fuck MNZ!!!
Is that all you got?

Skunk

3rd February 2010, 09:00

Most of the best riders start in Motorcross or Speedway - and I believe that is the place kids should start. Look at Daniel Mettam...

Kickaha

3rd February 2010, 16:21

Whats wrong with a quick fang up the street after school?

Or down the driveway:shifty:

Yow Ling

3rd February 2010, 18:06

Or down the driveway:shifty:

Its the only way to learn !!

woodyracer

3rd February 2010, 18:18

Most of the best riders start in Motorcross or Speedway - and I believe that is the place kids should start. Look at Daniel Mettam...

hae some of us came from little tiny things called pocket bikes!, :woohoo:

Motorcross is good, makes you aggressive and if you cant handle a MX bike over the massive jumps they have these days then your good for road racing.

Henk

3rd February 2010, 19:59

When you start banging on about jumps you are talking about junior MX not minis, unless the rules have changed since I last did a stewards course. Minis have strict rules on how the courses are laid out and this includes top speeds, no jumps and max length of straights. The last change I heard of was also to allow no engine mods.
Mini MX is huge but I suspect that this might be due to the fact that in most cases dad and or mum rides as well. If you really want big numbers, look to trail rides, no racing and 300 plus people showing up is not unusual. More and more whole families riding as well. Not sure we'll ever see that in any form of road racing.

woodyracer

3rd February 2010, 20:07

Yow Ling

3rd February 2010, 20:33

So its a NO then. all sorted, nothing to see , move along

oyster

4th February 2010, 09:28

More and more whole families riding as well. Not sure we'll ever see that in any form of road racing.[/QUOTE]

I suggest you should have visited the pits at Ruapuna at the GP (Natiional) round. And after the racing,
under the strict Young Junior Road Race rules, 3 young ones were coached on the full track, followed by a podium photo shoot on the podium. At ages 10, and two 12 year olds, not only were they winners, but surely
the future of our sport. Most of the negative posters here need to get their heads out of the sand.
Read your rulebook, ref 15-17, and further more, the second page
"Fostering the Sport of Motorcycling, making it safe, fun and fair" Tell me whats fair about a club denying
young ones their right to use a class in the rule book. Imagine the uproar if Glen W Terry F and Jason E
and three "ropes ins" were told the F3 championship was off this year because of low numbers. It neary
happened. And why is is so "decayed"? Go back to the start of this post.....

F5 Dave

4th February 2010, 09:36

Trudes

4th February 2010, 10:21

We haven't denied anyone anything other than doing it on one track here in Wellington, where it seems the majority of the people who this will actually directly effect, don't want it run, including at least one of those with kids that are old enough to fit into the category.

oyster

4th February 2010, 13:10

What 'club' is this? wgtn there isn't a club for buckets, just a few volunteers. This isn't vic club run. please keep your opinions where you have all the information rather than telling an organiser what he should be doing.
Bucket racing is a defined class under MNZ rules. Under NZ law you need a permit to run this, for that you need a host MNZ club. Simple. Running other "meetings" without MNZ rules or affiliation is plain foolish. It 's all fine
till it really really goes wrong. I use to run bucket training sessions strictly to mNZ rules but indemified to the Kart Association. On legal advice I switched to making it a wholly MNZ permitted process. No drama here, just different paperwork.
Interesting enough that Young Junior Road Race was initially applied for by Steve Scullion and Hamish Laing, of Wellington who saw the potential for this within their Bucket community.

And what information do I seem to be missing? I think I'm doing better than quite a few on this thread who have stated nothing exists for riders under 13 years old in NZ. Obviously quite wrong, Young Junior Road Race has

oyster

4th February 2010, 13:20

Bucket racing is a defined class under MNZ rules. Under NZ law you need a permit to run this, for that you need a host MNZ club. Simple. The quote was referring to a member who rides buckets in Auckland. It's fair to assume he rides at MNZ meetings. Maybe I'm wrong.
Running other "meetings" without MNZ rules or affiliation is plain foolish.
It 's all fine till it really really goes wrong. I use to run bucket training sessions strictly to mNZ rules but indemified to the Kart Association. On legal advice I switched to making it a wholly MNZ permitted process. No drama here, just different paperwork.
Interesting enough that Young Junior Road Race was initially applied for by Steve Scullion and Hamish Laing, of Wellington who saw the potential for this within their Bucket community.

And what information do I seem to be missing? I think I'm doing better than quite a few on this thread who have stated nothing exists for riders under 13 years old in NZ. Obviously quite wrong, Young Junior Road Race has

Opps, crappy computer (or operator)
Young Junior Road race has been in the rule book since July 2005, and used to good effect. How else
could we have got a NZ Champion at 15 yrs and 20 days old, another Young JRR "grad" won two 125GP National races at 14.

Yes, a bit rude to say "heads in the sand" .Should be more accurate: People who have no interest in the future of the sport through youth.
Some think this is important, others not . I've got no problem with that, so long as people remain fair
and give these young riders the same opportunities as others (as they're entitled)

It's free world, it's not illegal to be egotistical and selfish.

F5 Dave

4th February 2010, 13:24