Getting fired [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

GOONR

6th February 2010, 15:29

I'm probably about to get fired from my job. Does my employer have to give me my full holiday pay upon dismissal?

Hey I'm no expert, but I do know one.. A very very good employment lawyer, I will ask but it might take me a few days to get hold of her though.

Jantar

6th February 2010, 15:32

Yes, you are entitled to all outstanding holiday pay.

Maha

6th February 2010, 15:32

Hell yeah, if you dont get whats owing to you, mention 'Employment Tribunal' and you are sure to.

SMOKEU

6th February 2010, 15:33

Hey I'm no expert, but I do know one.. A very very good employment lawyer, I will ask but it might take me a few days to get hold of her though.

Cheers. I got told by my manager that the store manager wants me gone because I gave insufficent notice about wanting my shifts reduced for reasons beyond by reasonable control.

Jantar

6th February 2010, 15:37

Cheers. I got told by my manager that the store manager wants me gone because I gave insufficent notice about wanting my shifts reduced for reasons beyond by reasonable control.
That is not sufficient reason to be fired. You would have a case with the employment court for unjustified dismissal. You can't be fired for simply wanting your shifts reduced.

You can be fired if your shifts weren't reduced but you failed to turn up for work. Even then you must receive fair warning (in writing) before you can be dismissed. If your hours were'nt changed, but you failed to turn up for work, after a set period the employer can treat that as though you have resigned.

Headbanger

6th February 2010, 15:49

Cheers. I got told by my manager that the store manager wants me gone because I gave insufficent notice about wanting my shifts reduced for reasons beyond by reasonable control.

Heh, ask for that in writing.

SMOKEU

6th February 2010, 15:56

I signed up for school and only gave my employer about 5 days notice to have all of my shifts changed. My contract says I must give at least 2 weeks notice. So I do admit fault here.

Mom

6th February 2010, 16:32

I'm probably about to get fired from my job. Does my employer have to give me my full holiday pay upon dismissal?

Yes. You are entitled to 8% of your gross earnings less any leave that has been advanced. You must have been very naughty to get fired. That actually takes some doing in this day and age. Perhaps you mean made redundant? Even so, the same rules apply.

SMOKEU

6th February 2010, 16:35

Perhaps you mean made redundant? Even so, the same rules apply.

No, not redundant. The store manager has told me several times before that he wants me fired. He's looking for any excuse.

Mom

6th February 2010, 16:38

No, not redundant. The store manager has told me several times before that he wants me fired. He's looking for any excuse.

I actually read the rest of the thread after I responded to you. He cant just sack you, no way. Have someone look at your contract for you if you cant see what your rights are. They are usually very well balanced, and no employer can simply say " you are fired" There is a defined process. Ring 0800 20 90 20 on Monday for some advice. Best of luck with it too.

red mermaid

6th February 2010, 16:41

I hope you are recording dates, times, and any witnesses present when this was told to you?

Slyer

6th February 2010, 16:41

You have to be given 3 written warnings before you can get fired I think.

yachtie10

6th February 2010, 16:43

No, not redundant. The store manager has told me several times before that he wants me fired. He's looking for any excuse.

He cant fire you without 3 seperate warnings in writing (unless you do something illegal like punch him or steal from the company)
they must be seperate and he must give you time and assistance to correct your behaviour

Im pretty sure that the reason you have given probably wouldnt even justify a written warning but that depends on a lot of things

tell us how bad have you been? (assuming you cant be identified)

no matter what you are entitled to your holiday pay

sil3nt

6th February 2010, 16:47

Boss doesnt like you. Sounds like you dont like the job (sorry but 5 days notice that your going to school is just stupid and tells me you don't care too much about it). I say leave the job focus on school and find a new job. Everyone will be happy then.

Miscreant

6th February 2010, 16:55

I signed up for school and only gave my employer about 5 days notice to have all of my shifts changed. My contract says I must give at least 2 weeks notice. So I do admit fault here.

So you couldn't reasonably control signing up for school? Was it mafia school?

SMOKEU

6th February 2010, 17:00

So you couldn't reasonably control signing up for school? Was it mafia school?

The enrollment days were last week only, so I didn't have enough time to give sufficent notice. I've never really done anything bad at work. I always show up on time dressed neatly in the correct uniform, I'm nice to the customers and I get on well with the staff. I'm not complaining about the whole situation, and I'm not trying to get sympathy either. I simply wanted to know if they legally have to give me my holiday pay.

Tank

6th February 2010, 17:23

The enrollment days were last week only, so I didn't have enough time to give sufficent notice. I've never really done anything bad at work. I always show up on time dressed neatly in the correct uniform, I'm nice to the customers and I get on well with the staff. I'm not complaining about the whole situation, and I'm not trying to get sympathy either. I simply wanted to know if they legally have to give me my holiday pay.

No - they have no legal right to hold back wages.

I do employment advocacy for some people to help out (free of charge). Im happy to help in anyway if you need. Its easier to discuss than type everything out.

If you want some help / advise just drop me a PM with a number and I will call and help you with anything I can.

upshot - if he has told you that he wants you gone - you can go him for constructive dismissal also. You actually have a lot of power in this situation. Dont sweat it. Pretty easy to make employers accountable for their actions.

Ixion

6th February 2010, 17:35

I signed up for school and only gave my employer about 5 days notice to have all of my shifts changed. My contract says I must give at least 2 weeks notice. So I do admit fault here.

He can't fire you for that. What he *can* do is say, you didn't give enough notice, and not change your shifts. Them if you don't turn up for the unchanged shift, he can fire you for absenteeism. But not immediately , he has to give you warning (not necessarily three warnings, that's not actually law, but the tribunal does usually regard it as "reasonable".)

But, if he *has* changed your shifts, even if he grumbled, then he can't fire you for it. He agreed voluntarily to change them and dispense with the required notice period. He can't even warn you for that.

Regardlless of all that, the answer to your question is , yes, you must receive ALL your holiday pay due and accrued. The only time that is not so, is if you leaqve voluntarily (eg you get another job) and don't give notice - then the employer may deduct the sum equivalent to the notice period.

EDIT : You say he has told you several times before that he wants you fired. Were there any witnesses to that? Such a threat would taint any subsequent dismissal, and leave him open to an action for wrongful dismissal , almost regardless of the circumstances. He sounds rather silly. So often employers behave like idiots, then moan that the employment laws are unfair.

rainman

6th February 2010, 17:45

So often employers behave like idiots, then moan that the employment laws are unfair.

Ain't that the truth. And it's not like employment law is hard to understand, at least at a basic enough level to get by.

neels

6th February 2010, 18:10

If you're not too bothered about the job, take your holiday pay and leave. It should have been recorded on your pay sheets how much you are owed.

Can be better to walk away than have an employment tribunal case on your employment record, even if it wasn't your fault.

SMOKEU

6th February 2010, 18:19

He can't fire you for that. What he *can* do is say, you didn't give enough notice, and not change your shifts. Them if you don't turn up for the unchanged shift, he can fire you for absenteeism. But not immediately , he has to give you warning (not necessarily three warnings, that's not actually law, but the tribunal does usually regard it as "reasonable".)

That's what my manager is saying that the store manager is trying to do. He has told me on previous occasions that he wants me fired but there haven't been any witnesses to that. There are other people at work that have been treated just as bad as I have by the same store manager.

AD345

6th February 2010, 18:22

Two tips

1. Don't take Employment law advice from a bike forum - there's plenty of good advocates/advocacy groups. There's always UNITE if all else fails

2. It's not nearly as difficult to fire people as it is often made out to be. I tend to average 3 - 5 per year

GOONR

6th February 2010, 19:03

hospitalfood

6th February 2010, 19:17

mate it sounds like one way or another your days are numbered.
it is important that you take the opertunity to shit on the bosses desk while you have the chance. make sure nobody will snap you, pick your time, take some paper with you and have a good solid dump on the desk.

you will feel a lot better about things after this, it really helps.

EJK

6th February 2010, 19:33

You have to be given 3 written warnings before you can get fired I think.

Exactly. The official "You're Fired" almost only exist on the TV Program. I once had a colleague (didn't like him very much) who stole promotional stuffs and still didn't end up getting fired. Walked away with only simple warning.

SMOKEU

6th February 2010, 19:53

BoristheBiter

6th February 2010, 20:10

Now my only other question is do I wait to get fired or should I resign effective immediately (I have to give at least 2 weeks notice before resigning according to my contract, but I don't give a fuck). I'm just thinking it's not a good look for future potential employers if I get fired but if I resign without notice I mite not get my holiday pay which is close to $1000. I'm pretty broke as is, and I'll be even more broke without a job or holiday pay. I should qualify for a student allowance.

I think you have just answered your own question there.

but it sounds like the manager wants you gone and is using the store manager as an excuse, all of what he says is hearsay as it is from someone else and even if someone else hears him say that it doesn't count.
if you leave without notice, and its meant to be two weeks than they can keep it (the two weeks). if you give notice then they tell you to leave now then they must give it to you.
You can be fired on the spot for gross misconduct or a safety related matter or a serious breach of contract, other than that it is dam right impossable to get fired.

If you are that broke i would just stay at work and work though it, if they really want you gone that much then make it cost them.
if your two weeks pay is more than your holiday pay it could end up costing you money.

Latte

6th February 2010, 20:20

As an employer, regardless of why or how you get fired, or quit, you are entitled to all your accrued holiday pay. It's illegal to withold it, of course if you owe them any money, they can take it out of your final pay (this is for things you actually owe them, they cant claim missed shifts or anyhing stupid.

But the best advice so far has been get legal advice if things arent going as planned.

Slyer

6th February 2010, 20:26

SMOKEU

6th February 2010, 20:29

I think you have just answered your own question there.

but it sounds like the manager wants you gone and is using the store manager as an excuse, all of what he says is hearsay as it is from someone else and even if someone else hears him say that it doesn't count.
i.

I get on quite well with my manager and I know that she likes having me as an employee. She would not try to terminate my contract. It's the store manager that is using any possible excuse to get rid of me.

BoristheBiter

6th February 2010, 20:35

I get on quite well with my manager and I know that she likes having me as an employee. She would not try to terminate my contract. It's the store manager that is using any possible excuse to get rid of me.

well don't worry, as i stated above unless you have done something bad then he just can't fire you like that even if you didn't give the correct amount of time for shift change. thats only a written warning at best. even then they can't hold back your holiday pay.
So i think it comes down to if you want to keep the job or not, and i have allways found it's easyer to find another job while you still have one.

EJK

6th February 2010, 20:37

In America you can get fired on the spot if I recall correctly, different to here.

I never worked outside of NZ so God knows :msn-wink:

crazyhorse

6th February 2010, 20:37

well don't worry, as i stated above unless you have done something bad then he just can't fire you like that even if you didn't give the correct amount of time for shift change. thats only a written warning at best.
So i think it comes down to if you want to keep the job or not, and i have allways found it's easyer to find another job while you still have one.

Since the employment contacts came into force, it is actually quite difficult to fire someone. They have to dot their "i's" and cross their "t's", otherwise you can have them. Good luck and hope it works out for you SMOKEU

Ixion

6th February 2010, 20:39

In America you can get fired on the spot if I recall correctly, different to here.

It varies from state to state, but in some (probably most) states , yes.

BoristheBiter

6th February 2010, 20:40

Since the employment contacts came into force, it is actually quite difficult to fire someone. They have to dot their "i's" and cross their "t's", otherwise you can have them.

Tell me about it. thats why i stopped employing.

Latte

6th February 2010, 20:41

Since the employment contacts came into force, it is actually quite difficult to fire someone. They have to dot their "i's" and cross their "t's", otherwise you can have them. Good luck and hope it works out for you SMOKEU

As long as you follow the process (crossing your I's and dotting your T's - intentional). You can fire people for some pretty minor reasons. But the whole written warnings, giving the employee the oppurtinity to see thge error of their ways etc still stands.

crazyhorse

6th February 2010, 20:44

As long as you follow the process (crossing your I's and dotting your T's - intentional). You can fire people for some pretty minor reasons. But the whole written warnings, giving the employee the oppurtinity to see thge error of their ways etc still stands.

Yeah, but for the Employer, you gotta make sure its all done the right way.... and often they can't be bothered, incase mistakes get made and its ends up biting you in the arse!

crazyhorse

6th February 2010, 20:45

Tell me about it. thats why i stopped employing.

Sometimes its easier to hope that the employee hates it at work bad enough that they will be the one who opts to leave and then wholla...... problem solved :niceone:

BoristheBiter

6th February 2010, 20:47

;
Yeah, but for the Employer, you gotta make sure its all done the right way.... and often they can't be bothered, incase mistakes get made and its ends up biting you in the arse!

i have found it is easyer to get people to leave, give them shit jobs and be on there back, then to fire some one.

Beat me too it

crazyhorse

6th February 2010, 20:51

;

i have found it is easyer to get people to leave, give them shit jobs and be on there back, then to fire some one.

Beat me too it

Nah, just on the same wavelength LOL

Latte

6th February 2010, 20:54

Yeah, but for the Employer, you gotta make sure its all done the right way.... and often they can't be bothered, incase mistakes get made and its ends up biting you in the arse!

Yep agreed, theres a lot of procedure to go through to even get to the point of considering firing someone, but if you follow it the underlying reason is not important - even firing for "lack of confidence" (how generic is that) is quite possible.Anything remotely resembling "on the spot" firing is REALLY hard.
And even if you follow the rules, if the employee makes a complaint buckle up for a bumpy (and expensive) ride.

crazyhorse

6th February 2010, 20:58

Yep agreed, theres a lot of procedure to go through to even get to the point of considering firing someone, but if you follow it the underlying reason is not important - even firing for "lack of confidence" (how generic is that) is quite possible.Anything remotely resembling "on the spot" firing is REALLY hard.
And even if you follow the rules, if the employee makes a complaint buckle up for a bumpy (and expensive) ride.

So therefore, my point being, as an employee, you are fairly ok, because you can cause the employer alot of worry or stress, mostly if they want to try to go down that avenue - it could be quite arduous.

:done:

GOONR

6th February 2010, 21:01

So therefore, my point being, as an employee, you are fairly ok, because you can cause the employer alot of worry or stress, mostly if they want to try to go down that avenue - it could be quite arduous.

:done:

Especially, as an employee, if they know you have access to good legal advice. ;)

crazyhorse

6th February 2010, 21:05

Especially, as an employee, if they know you have access to good legal advice. ;)

Exactly! :msn-wink:

Latte

6th February 2010, 21:13

Yeah I guess you're right.

We have had more trouble getting rid of a thief that we caught, than a thief that we didn't. I guess my point is if you are willing to jump through the hoops you can get rid of people for "minor" issues (although to warrant this effort in our case this person was costing us thousands a month, which we could never prove or use as a reason).

[/hijack] Sorry, this is actually about smokeu, dude get some advice/representation. The holiday pay is yours , don't let it go.

GOONR

6th February 2010, 21:19

.....

[/hijack] Sorry, this is actually about smokeu, dude get some advice/representation. The holiday pay is yours , don't let it go.

He will get advice, I can only ask my friend hypothetical questions (otherwise a large bill could be produced) but if the facts are on the table (via PM) it will be a bloody good start and enough for his employers to sit up and think twice..

Iggy

7th February 2010, 08:35

TimeOut

7th February 2010, 10:25

Sometimes its easier to hope that the employee hates it at work bad enough that they will be the one who opts to leave and then wholla...... problem solved :niceone:

;

i have found it is easyer to get people to leave, give them shit jobs and be on there back, then to fire some one.

Beat me too it

Constructive dismissal:bash:

tri boy

7th February 2010, 10:33

Constructive dismissal:bash:

No, just reality.

Shadows

7th February 2010, 10:55

Not only do they have to pay you all of your outstandng and accrued holiday pay, but they must also treat that leave as if you took it from your finish date - if any statutory holidays fall in that period (between when you left and when your leave would have run out) they must pay you for those as well.

quickbuck

7th February 2010, 12:48

CookMySock

7th February 2010, 15:21

Heh, ask for that in writing.No no, never ask for anything in writing. If they can't put it writing that's their failure, not yours. Don't remind them or prompt it.

No reminders in writing is time up your sleeve for you.

Seriously though, don't you like working for these guys?

Steve

avgas

8th February 2010, 11:46

Move on buddy. There is no point working for a company that doesn't want you. Unless your a masochist

SPman

8th February 2010, 15:34

Exactly. The official "You're Fired" almost only exist on the TV Program. I once had a colleague (didn't like him very much) who stole promotional stuffs and still didn't end up getting fired. Walked away with only simple warning.
What - you haven't had the 3.30pm friday, walk into the office and a "please collect all your stuff and don't come in Monday", at the end of the financial year, experience?
It's fun, believe me. Normally carried out by paranoid bosses who think so little of their employees, they think they would create mayhem if they gave them more than 2 minutes advance warning. It's possible to make them feel like bigger pricks than they actually are, with a few well chosen, quiet words......

crazyhorse

8th February 2010, 15:54

I'm probably about to get fired from my job. Does my employer have to give me my full holiday pay upon dismissal?

SO? How was the work place today? did you get fired, or still employed.....?

SMOKEU

8th February 2010, 15:57

SO? How was the work place today? did you get fired, or still employed.....?

I never work Mondays. I'll find out in the next few days and keep you posted.

Skyryder

8th February 2010, 16:05

Cheers. I got told by my manager that the store manager wants me gone because I gave insufficent notice about wanting my shifts reduced for reasons beyond by reasonable control.

I gather you have an employment contract. Take a look and see what is says about your emplyoyer altering your hours of work or conditions. Most will give them this right as it is usually standard practice for a varietyof reasons.

However you state that you want your shifts 'reduced' and he/she has refused. Has this been allowed in the past with other emplyoyers?? If so start a PG. This will prevent you from being fired and may help to resove your dilemma. If you believe that you have grounds on the basis of events outside of your control you could still do the PG thing. There is of course no guarantee that you will win but at the worst you can not be fired once the process has been started..

From today start keeping diary and write down all details that my come in usefull for bargaining. Diary and records win arguements. just don't tell anyone that you are keeping one. Surprise is next best weapon to facts.

Skyryder

Skyryder

Donor

8th February 2010, 21:56

I get on quite well with my manager and I know that she likes having me as an employee. She would not try to terminate my contract. It's the store manager that is using any possible excuse to get rid of me.

There's your answer.........sweet talk to the manager to sack the store manager for not treating employees fairly and not following correct procedures............good luck with whatever works out for you:niceone:

Two magic things:

1) Talk to the big boss lady, mention you will be filing a PERSONAL GRIEVANCE

...when she asks why...

2) Tell her it's regarding your fears for your job due to the belief your manager is engaging in a CONSTRUCTIVE DISMISSAL

Works wonders :)

As others have said, record EVERYTHING, make sure all meetings you have a support person present and most importantly keep your professionalism, let the employer make the mistakes.

Gareth51

8th February 2010, 23:14

As Ixion said,but unless your employer gives you"garden leave",work out your notice

Grubber

9th February 2010, 06:31

Ok my kick on this one is, if anyone is interested, chuck the job and move on. All the employers rights and employees rights don't do jack at the end of the day. If the job is giving ya shit then just get another one. None of the legal bull is worth the hassle. If you upset the management with a fight they will then make life very difficult for you from that point on. I know this due to the fact that i have been left with the job of getting rid of staff. Like it or not it can be done with no legal ramifications.