F3 regs

[satchriossi]

Hey,

Seeing as the rules allow overbored 400cc four strokes to <460(?)cc - how would someone go about getting <300cc two strokes allowed? Is there someone important who i can moan at to get the rules altered? Either that or get the pro-twins opened up to <300cc production based two strokes - that'd be as good really seeing as they classes run together in the Vic club anyway.

Does anyone know the exact regs for F2? I read that Glen Skachill ran an RS250 Honda GP bike in F2 a couple of years ago. I can't find rules for the class that state exactly what machines are elligible to run.

Chur,

Tom

[oyster]

Hey,

Seeing as the rules allow overbored 400cc four strokes to <460(?)cc - how would someone go about getting <300cc two strokes allowed? Is there someone important who i can moan at to get the rules altered? Either that or get the pro-twins opened up to <300cc production based two strokes - that'd be as good really seeing as they classes run together in the Vic club anyway.

Does anyone know the exact regs for F2? I read that Glen Skachill ran an RS250 Honda GP bike in F2 a couple of years ago. I can't find rules for the class that state exactly what machines are elligible to run.

Chur,

Tom
F2 is an MNZ class abolished over a decade ago but clubs still run it with the obvious benefit of finding
a safe and suitable place for bikes of that spec. Thus there is no MNZ definition, it's up to the clubs to
define it in their supplementary rules. The upside of F! and F2 is it includes more bikes in a class, the
downside it dilutes the sport which some say has too many classes already. If you want to win at club
level, F2 spec your bike, for Nationals 600SP it.

[lostinflyz]

if you dont advertise your bikes a 300, don't win, don't do nats then your 300 is already legal. hahaha.

club racing should be an inclusive enviroment. worst comes to worst its clubmans legal.

[steveyb]

Oyster is right about the F2 class. F1 is the same, a class that was disestablished some years ago, and 250GP went the same way a couple of years ago.
Currently Formula 3 allows for 450cc 4 cyl four strokes and 250cc 2 cyl two strokes based on Production road bikes. Some mods are allowed, but most things must remain original.
I am personally not in favour of allowing 300cc overboring as there are heaps of other, lower cost and easier things that could be done to these bikes before doing that. Such like GP pistons, heads, ECUs, larger carbs etc etc etc.
My own opinion is that it is time now to open the Formula 3 regulations to allow 250GP bikes from Honda up to 2000 and Yamaha 1999 into the class. I am less familiar with the Yamahas but there is nothing on the 2001- Honda RS250 that can be put on the pre-2001 bikes that will make any go faster difference. I think this would provide a real place to race for the few 250 GP bikes that are left in NZ. And there aren't very many any more. Mostly Post-classic age bikes. Maybe a couple of handsful of later model bikes. But there are alot of riders who would like to get bikes if there was a championship in which they could run.

And I really don't think they would walk away with it with the age restriction. The top current F3 bikes are serious racebikes and will give any 250GP bike a good run for its money on NZ circuits which don't really show 250GP bikes at their best.

So, if you want to have the rules for a class changed, you need to write a proposal and submit it to Motorcycling NZ for consideration by the Road Race commission at AGM (in March or May I think). So, no, you can't just "have a moan" you actually need to do some work and string some words together into coherent sentences and present your ideas to the powers that be.

I will be doing this for my idea above, at least I will if I can find the time. No doubt someone will jump down my throat now.....

[k14]

Good idea steve, looking at the times that williams and easton were doing at teretonga and levels an older 250 ridden by an equally good rider would probably be right on their heels. Any way you can get more riders/bikes into the class the better.

Another thing I reckon that should happen is that pro twin bikes are allowed to get F3 points. At the moment they are two seperate classes off the same start. The problem is that during a race, if you are an F3 bike following for instance 2 pro twin bikes, there is no incentive to pass them. I've done it, why risk anything when you have nothing to gain? This does nothing to help the crowd that has come to watch. I think this would make the F3 championshop a lot better and shouldn't make a difference to the pro twin class, its a great class and i think 3 years after it was started now it is starting to show its promise!

[oyster]

Good idea steve, looking at the times that williams and easton were doing at teretonga and levels an older 250 ridden by an equally good rider would probably be right on their heels. Any way you can get more riders/bikes into the class the better.

Another thing I reckon that should happen is that pro twin bikes are allowed to get F3 points. At the moment they are two seperate classes off the same start. The problem is that during a race, if you are an F3 bike following for instance 2 pro twin bikes, there is no incentive to pass them. I've done it, why risk anything when you have nothing to gain? This does nothing to help the crowd that has come to watch. I think this would make the F3 championshop a lot better and shouldn't make a difference to the pro twin class, its a great class and i think 3 years after it was started now it is starting to show its promise!

Pro Twin IS showing great promise, but not in the quanities we really need. Before the class came people were were jumping up and down wanting the replacement for the prod 250 class which famously developed
our great, recent, but now very aging road racers. It still holds that promise and is the ideal stepping
stone (as well as 125GP) for (especially) young people moving from Streetstock up the ladder to 600SP.
What happens when the very, very old frontrunners of F3 retire? There will be nothing left but several clubman riders, where F3 should retire too also. Then give the full championship opportunity to Pro Twin, where they can
race for "line honours" without tripping over the lower order F3 riders with much superior chassis and
power.

[Whitebait]

Tom as long as your not planning on winning national titles on the 300 you'll be sweet.

Were you gonna put in that spare 250cc engine you got off me??;)

Steve you get my vote as well!

250 gp bikes and modified 250 proddy bikes should be allowed in F3

You can go can buy a brand new 600 and whip a plug lead off but you can't stick some aftermarket goodies in a 250???????? How does that work??

I would be ordering a RS250 tomorrow if I had a class to ride it in!!

There are so many people I have meet through racing a 2-stroke that are so passionate to see, smell and look at 2-strokes maybe we need to be pushing for our own class??

2-stroke unders and 2-stroke overs on one grid!!

The motard boys have shown that they aren't interested in showing up to the winter series so scratch them off the list. :eek5:

[quickbuck]

The problem is that during a race, if you are an F3 bike following for instance 2 pro twin bikes, there is no incentive to pass them. I've done it, why risk anything when you have nothing to gain? This does nothing to help the crowd that has come to watch.
Put your Red Mist on Kirk, and show him a wheel.....
Then, put on a show for the crowd...... Oh, that's right, we had an incident when a certain person decided to beat all the Pro-Twins as well ;)

[satchriossi]

My 300 cost less to build than what it would cost to buy an NX5 RS250 in decent condition. It weighs a bit more and makes abit less power. Its motor uses modified NSR150 barrels and heads (so not really an overbore) fitted to the NSR250 crank cases so its all mass production based stuff. As its power comes more from increased displacement, rather than a high state of tune, it doesn't cost as much to run as a full on GP bike either - which was always the aim when i was building it.

So in one breath you so say you want to bring GP 250s in and in another breath you oppose allowing big bore kitted 250 production bikes to run on the grounds that its too expensive... Explain yourself.


So, if you want to have the rules for a class changed, you need to write a proposal and submit it to Motorcycling NZ for consideration by the Road Race commission at AGM (in March or May I think).

Thankyou, that's what I needed to know.


So, no, you can't just "have a moan" you actually need to do some work and string some words together into coherent sentences and present your ideas to the powers that be.

I worded it like that to add a little humour. That little sentence REALLY pissed me off. Think about it now, would you have said it to me like that if we'd been face to face? If you carry on with that condescending attitude you'll find plenty of people ARE going to be keen to jump down your throat at the slightest oppurtunity. As I have.

[Billy]

Absolutely the NSR300 kits should be eligible,Unless you bite the bullet and pay somebody to fabricate some expansion chambers too suit them and purchase some RS250 manifolds and 38mm carbs,The most you can hope too see is around 65-68 rwhp.A well set up RGV will produce 72.The Tyga 300 kits are nothing more than 2x NSR150 cylinders,Pistons and rings and unless you modify the cases too suit. The cylinders are a horrendous mismatch.The rules regarding multi cylinder 2 strokes eligibility for F3 have recently been eased a little with the inclusion of open format for carbs and pistons (the latter provided it remains within 250cc limit),However much they are relaxed you dont have a snowballs chance in hell of making a production based 250 competitive with the Ozzy 450,Tigcraft or glen and terrys SVs.Bringing back the 250 gp bikes could be an option but good luck finding one in this country thats for sale

[satchriossi]

Tom as long as your not planning on winning national titles on the 300 you'll be sweet.

Yeah true bro, i'm just worried about upsetting anyone with my cheater bike!

I'm all for letting the two strokes go nuts in F3 - Alan Baird's TZ would look a treat on the F3 grid, its a shame to see him confined to clubmans.

[Whitebait]

If I won big wednesday I would buy a NSR500 and employ someone to be my pit bitch.

There are a few nice 250's tucked away with their crank seals hardening would be much better put to use on the track!!

[satchriossi]

Absolutely the NSR300 kits should be eligible,Unless you bite the bullet and pay somebody to fabricate some expansion chambers too suit them and purchase some RS250 manifolds and 38mm carbs,The most you can hope too see is around 65-68 rwhp.A well set up RGV will produce 72.The Tyga 300 kits are nothing more than 2x NSR150 cylinders,Pistons and rings and unless you modify the cases too suit. The cylinders are a horrendous mismatch.The rules regarding multi cylinder 2 strokes eligibility for F3 have recently been eased a little with the inclusion of open format for carbs and pistons (the latter provided it remains within 250cc limit),However much they are relaxed you dont have a snowballs chance in hell of making a production based 250 competitive with the Ozzy 450,Tigcraft or glen and terrys SVs.Bringing back the 250 gp bikes could be an option but good luck finding one in this country thats for sale

Well said, there's a guy in England who has a fully kitted F3 NSR250 with all the HRC race kit goodies and he's got dyno graphs for that reading 77 horsepower at the wheel. A dear job and its all very well if you have contacts for getting HRC race kit parts for the more obscure bikes but for us mortals the Tyga 300 kits are a much easier route to better performance. I'd hazard a guess that the HRC crank he's got in it wasn't cheap and won't be easy to replace when it reaches its service limit.

[satchriossi]

If I won big wednesday I would buy a NSR500 and employ someone to be my pit bitch.

There are a few nice 250's tucked away with their crank seals hardening would be much better put to use on the track!!

RS cycles in America have a still crated NXA RS250 sat in their warehouse, that's where my lotto win would get invested!

[quickbuck]

If I won big wednesday I would buy a NSR500 and employ someone to be my pit bitch.

There are a few nice 250's tucked away with their crank seals hardening would be much better put to use on the track!!

Okay, make sure your numbers include 1, 2, and 46.... Oh, wait, Big Wednesday doesn't go that high....
But i will swing your spanners Glenn ;)

[lostinflyz]

i thought letting 250gp into the scene would be fair enough now, but looking at the top lap times set through the days they would be too quick for f3 with even a half decent rider. for the most part any lap records i can find show 250's as being around 2sec quicker. except at manfield.

in my opinion you cant bin f3 as its the only class where you can be creative. making pro twins the new f3 just makes more and more stock racing, which isn't why alot of us enjoy the race scene as a whole. There seems to be alotta myths and rumors about f3 that turn alotta people off. That being said there are some areas that a small restriction (frames, mag. or cf wheels) now would be a really good idea before more people start going that way to control some costs and encourage more people to step up from club level to nats.

[satchriossi]

You're right, GP250s are alot faster than many people think. We're talking machines weighing a shade over 100kg and making 90+horsepower at the crank (for the final versions anyway). Not a fair match for an SV650 to be fair.

[TonyB]

I think the 300 idea sounds good as you put it satchriossi- doing it to make a cheap competitive 300 based on production parts to keep the costs down. But the problem is that someone with more resources will see it as an opportunity to build a highly tuned 300, and clean up.

[Whitebait]

Imagine that!! http://www.classic-motorbikes.com/stock.asp?Ref=FA97&Lang=en

[scroter]

Hey,

Either that or get the pro-twins opened up to <300cc production based two strokes - that'd be as good really seeing as they classes run together in the Vic club anyway.


Tom

Im not familiar with the bike your talking about but in the 08/09 PMCC series there were 2 RD350's in pro twins.

[quickbuck]

Imagine that!! http://www.classic-motorbikes.com/stock.asp?Ref=FA97&Lang=en

Yup, not bad for a Yammy. ;)
Engine Carter? I'm not totally up with terminology, but is that what we call Crank Cases?

[steve74]

I support the 300cc production 2 stroke idea. I remember when 250 production machines such as the NSR, RGV, KRIS etc were no longer manufactured and sold by nz dealers and the pressure was on for MNZ to introduce new bikes that could win Sunday and sell Monday. In comes the big F3 reshuffle which put standard 250cc production 2 strokes in the same class as 650cc twins and 400cc 4 strokes. But wait..... The 650s were too fast!!!. So to correct things a bit the 400 4 stroke was allowed to run 450cc but the 250 had to remain standard. All well and good that formula 3 is an unlimited budget class with plenty of room for kiwi ingenuity and imagination but why heavily penalize the poor 250 production 2 stroke. My RGV will never be in the same league or budget as the class leading sv650s or zxr450s but it would be good to be given the freedom and opportunity to modify it. If a pre 2000 TZ or RS is doing lap times just off the top F3 guys then how will a mid 90's 300cc production bike hurt?

[Kickaha]

If a pre 2000 TZ or RS is doing lap times just off the top F3 guys

A TZ or RS should smoke any F3 bike and should be giving the 600 boys a hurry up

[steveyb]

My 300 cost less to build than what it would cost to buy an NX5 RS250 in decent condition. It weighs a bit more and makes abit less power. Its motor uses modified NSR150 barrels and heads (so not really an overbore) fitted to the NSR250 crank cases so its all mass production based stuff. As its power comes more from increased displacement, rather than a high state of tune, it doesn't cost as much to run as a full on GP bike either - which was always the aim when i was building it.

So in one breath you so say you want to bring GP 250s in and in another breath you oppose allowing big bore kitted 250 production bikes to run on the grounds that its too expensive... Explain yourself.




I worded it like that to add a little humour. That little sentence REALLY pissed me off. Think about it now, would you have said it to me like that if we'd been face to face? If you carry on with that condescending attitude you'll find plenty of people ARE going to be keen to jump down your throat at the slightest oppurtunity. As I have.

Dude, take a breath!! Geez. Why so defensive?
I put the quote marks around it to make a point. You know, not everything typed here is a one way conversation. The entries are made for others to read also are they not? You didn't start off by writing to me, so why think that I am writing to you, directly? You know, some people do only "have a moan" and expect that to change things, esp people who write to this forum. If you are different, go ahead and make that submission.

I am perfectly capable of being corrected and accepting the validity of what you assert about the 300 kits. I have never investigated it myself other than seeing them for sale via Tyga. I was under the impression that they required modification of existing cylinders, but it would seem not. But I would also suggest that the porting on an NSR150 cylinder is not going to allow the production of the power that a well ported RS125 (or each cyl on a 250) will produce. Afterall it comes from a commuter roadbike, not a racebike. I suggest that the Tyga kit is aimed at roadbike users, not racers wanting to be at the pointy end of a championship not matter what that championship. If you get in there to port it up to optimise it to make a really good race bike engine, then you are starting to spend time and money on expertise, parts and testing. So in the end one would really end up in a very similar position as the guys who have developed their SV650 and 450 bikes to the pointy end.

So I am sure that your 300cc NSR cost less than an NX5, but how about a bike that is competitive in the current F3 class?

If you suggest that the 300 kit is affordable, then I am quite willing to accept that. But then, after assembling the 300 kit what next? Can you get light, high comp pistons, or must you use NSR150 roadbike pistons? I am guessing that Vertx/Wossner/Wiseco will have a good one, but I don't know. Low volume heads? Advanced curve ignition ECU, Ohlins/WP etc suspension, light wider wheels for good tyres, high performance exhaust, 38-39 mm carbs, reed block, case mods...OK we can go on about it.

My point being is that to make a 250 production bike into a serious Formula race bike is indeed possible and they go really well. If you can do 1:15s around Manfeild then you are getting close. 1:16-1:15's is what "standard" (and I use that term a wee bit loosely) 250 Proddy bikes were doing in 1989/90. But to compete in a Formula class will take much more time, effort and money than only buying a Tyga 300 kit (or making up your own). I am sure you know that already though.

I am half in agreeance with Billy in feeling that it would be quite hard to make one really competitive in a Formula class, but I am all for making it allowable for people to try, and we don't really know as no one has had the opportunity to try.

My suggestion about the 250GP bikes has the following points:
Limit the age so that the NXA is ineligible. Limit to ND5/NF5/NX5 as there is not much difference in real terms between a 1993 and a 2000 and almost all parts are retrofittable. 1986-1991 likely to be not really competitive, but at least one good 1992 bike in NZ would be. I stand to be corrected on the TZ, but following the Australian Post-Classic regs seems a fair place to start, but they are a bit complicated.

Finding a 250GP bike for sale in NZ is pretty tough, but there are a few around. But if there was a championship the supply might all of a sudden dry up. But bikes are available ex-Japan for fair prices. Have a look on www.usgpru.net. The prices in the US are not so bad and with the exchange rate it makes it doable. Just have a think about how much sweat, time and money has gone into Fitgeralds, Williams, Eastons, Bolwells bikes and then wonder if you have the resources to compete with that.

Most riders who would actually end up getting one and riding it are unlikely to be the front running riders as they have other fish to fry. They are really becoming an enthusiasts or gentleman racers bike now, not really a serious racers bike. The really serious racers are on bikes they have built themselves or 600/SBK. I do know that a few more Pre-89 post classic GP bikes are being put together in NZ at the moment. One in my garage in fact.

Laptimes in NZ on these bikes (don't look at the last couple of years 250GP top laptimes as they were set on very new model bikes) are not as great as people think they are. They can go fast, yes, but the new F3 bikes are also very fast. I don't believe that 25GP bikes have consistently lapped in the 1:11 bracket at Manfeild (the circuit with which I am most familiar). Our circuits do not allow riders to really get the best out of these bikes except for Pukekohe. HD might be a different story.

Why have a whole cohort of bikes sitting around when they could be being used to good effect?

And finally, I really believe that the 250GP bike is the best stepping stone for young riders wanting to go to 600 and Superbike competition. A season or two spent on a 250GP bike will teach riders alot more about racing than a Pro-Twin bike (not to knock Pro-Twins, it has its place). So if there was a place for them then there would be a market for them and people would not necessarily need to lose a lot of money getting them and having no where to send it when finished with it.

I think that having a 1-2 year trial period would be a good starting point.

Phew, enough explanation? I have been racing 250 Proddy/125GP/250GP to GP/TT and NZSBK race/round winning level since 1990. I think I know at least a little about what I am talking about. Does scratchriossi have the same background? It doesn't matter, as long as he is keen, wants to do something, has a cool bike and gets out racing, that is the main thing.

Onwards and upwards then.

Steve.

[Shaun]

steveb said

"Laptimes in NZ on these bikes (don't look at the last couple of years 250GP top laptimes as they were set on very new model bikes) are not as great as people think they are. They can go fast, yes, but the new F3 bikes are also very fast. I don't believe that 25GP bikes have consistently lapped in the 1:11 bracket at Manfeild (the circuit with which I am most familiar). Our circuits do not allow riders to really get the best out of these bikes except for Pukekohe. HD might be a different story."

Look at the lap times done at Manfield in Probally 1989 0r 1990- 1991 Pan Pacific series by a lot of 250cc riders

I Know I did 1-09 back then and other Kiwi riders also, and Hikita did 1-08 I think?

So these older 250cc bikes you talk about Steve, are still able to race with the fast 600z Not the F3 Scene mate, Not knocking your idea at all, just high lighting, that with a well built 250 on Modern good tyres, the lap times can still be done

[steveyb]

Have to agree with you Shaun, I don't have access to that information.
But I would perhaps suggest that the bike Hikita was riding wasn't exactly the sort of bike most of us would have access to. Can't say for the one you rode.

I guess the point I am making is that I don't feel that riders who are capable of riding those times will ride in this class these days.

If they are capable/were capable they will be retired (e.g. you, Kris, Troy, Briggsey, not me as I could never ride those sorts of times) or in another, perhaps more serious racing class (eg Sketchy, Midge etc).

But in the final washup, if we suggest a 1-2 year trial period and it comes to pass that they are too fast then the market will decide if that is a good thing and everyone rushes out to buy one, or that they want to go back to the status quo wherein only three riders get to win everything and no one else is willing to invest the time, ingenuity, sweat, money to get up with them.

But we must also realise that in motorsport, if you want to win then you must get the best bike you can buy, build, borrow, steal (perhaps not so much of the latter please) and then learn to ride it faster than it will go. How many riders in NZ seriously take that approach? Only a couple of handsful I would suggest. The rest of us want the rules changed to suit our budgets/imaginations/skill levels.

So there is of course the real possibility that someone will search around and buy a 2000 model ex-GP NSR250 or something. Then where would we be. But that is the nature of the beast.

Righto

Steve

[Billy]

The fact is at that Pan Pacific meeting in 91 there were a raft of riders (approx 10) who went well under the 1.12 sec bracket and in fact John Reid was in the high 1.11s on what is now a pre 89 TZ250U,Sure those riders arent around anymore,But what about the likes of Cam Jones,Alistair Hoogenthingy,Avalon Biddle,Tim McArthur,Glen Skachill ??And dont discount the likes of Troy Odonoghue,Kris Shirriffs and Dave Cole making a comeback all have achieved high 1.11s without pushing,In fact Kris managed a 1.12 flat on Ozzys RS having not ridden a roadrace bike for 2 years.While I agree it would be a spectacle too watch all the above riders battling with the top F3 bikes,I have no doubt a 250GP machine ridden in anger by many if not all of the above would be circulating in the low 1.11s high 1.10s and would decimate the class.Thats assuming they could find a 250GP machine to ride

[steveyb]

I think we are closing in on a concensous of sorts.
I think the points Billy makes are good ones about a place for younger riders to go other than into 600SP or Pro-Twin.
It would take them sometime to be able to ride at those speeds.
I disagree about words such as "without pushing". Those laptimes were done in competitive races and those riders like Kris and Troy didn't really just ride around, they always pushed as far as I could tell, and those laptimes weren't done on their first laps back, but after a bit of practice.
But the current F3 lap record at Manfeild is in the 1:11 isn't it? (Ihope that is right).
So I see it as just another category of bike that is capable of running near/at the front and would push the current riders onto more improvements and faster lap times. I am sure the Williams/Fitzgerald/Easton/Ozzy bikes/riders are capable of going faster and faster.

[Billy]

1.12 flat as set by Glen Skachill at last years National round.The point being,It has been shown the 250GP machines can circulate at laptimes far in excess of the current F3 machines.I would have thought the best step up for a younger rider would have been a new 600 converted too an Ozzy 450 for the first step up to allow the rider to become accustomed to riggers of a larger more powerful machine with infinite suspension options and once that is achieved convert it back to a 600,Why would you mess with a 10 year old GP bike or even a Pro twins bike which are no more than a commuter bike that has little in common with a 600 or Superbike??

[Skunk]

Maybe Clubs could allow 250GP's at club meetings under Supp Regs?

[Billy]

Maybe Clubs could allow 250GP's at club meetings under Supp Regs?

Yip,Good idea,Why not try it during the upcoming Actrix series?As long as they are restricted too the specs SteveyB posted

[Skunk]

Yip,Good idea,Why not try it during the upcoming Actrix series?As long as they are restricted too the specs SteveyB postedProcess started already. :niceone:

[lostinflyz]

the only other thing to consider with 250's (despite being much faster than f3) is that parts are slowly already becoming more and more difficult to source. Give it a few years and its likely to be increasingly difficult to find many parts depending on what honda and yamaha decide to do and what other championships continue to run 250's to stoke demand (250's are dead at the world stage, and slowly being dropped from national championships, as well as places like irish road racing that used to drive alot of the UK 250 scene). that being said i would probably buy a 250 tomorrow if i could race it at nationals. even if it would cost me a kidney or two.

Changing tack a bit, the f3 regs do need a bit of an update, as with this whole 600 lop a cylinder off it thing and custom frames ect, how long before someone gets real clever and shows up with moto2 chassis (they have to go somewhere from year to year, moriwaki (amongst others) will probably sell you one) and drive what is out 3rd division's class costs further and further up. Not to mention the easy avaliability of full supersport kits for 600's to push the brinks even further. as some have mentioned there is currently very few people moving into f3 as is (nationally). f3 is about tinkering and ingeniouty, developing something you dont buy outta a box, with a variety of solutions to a common problem, often starting from a common base.

actually on 250's, i thought about this some time back, that a weight limit could be a method of reducing the performance of them to make them feasible options, and allow for creative souls to find ways around that to better improve. and its unbeleivably easy to enforce.

[roadracingoldfart]

Me just sit and watch , comment later ...... talk amoung yaselves while i read and injest it all.


as you were


Paul.

[steveyb]

As long as after your injesting you don't just make shit out of it........ ;-)

[steveyb]

Yip,Good idea,Why not try it during the upcoming Actrix series?As long as they are restricted too the specs SteveyB posted

Let's try that for 2010 to see if it works before launching into NZSBK rules.

[roadracingoldfart]

As long as after your injesting you don't just make shit out of it........ ;-)

Ohhh shit Steve , thats not what i meant.
I was doing a bit of research first and using my memory to reflect on the issue.

I am far from against it , but ... i am a bit mystifyed as to why it cant be more a case of asking to be allowed into the class as a sub catagory , race within a race. The 250s are spectacular to watch and the TZ250U that i rode many years ago was fuckin wicked to ride , very forgiving , very nimble , very very powerful etc etc. Brent Jones did quite well on it in the day and i was sad to see the class vanish as it did. I can only assume it was a maint cost ratio that killed it off and the option of a cheap F3 bike took over as the preferred steed. Either that or they just stopped makin them.
I dont see many apart from the very top F3 bikes being able to run with a 250 really but i am happy to be proved wrong. The longevity of the 2 stroke bikes can be overcome with modern internals and the option to hot the hell out of them is going to produce a serious potential bike. In the proper hands they would be pretty good in even the F1 class as has been proven before.
Looking at a few lap times from (i think it was) 2000 the Moto GP 250s were doing a slower time that the present 600s are now which surprised me to be honest. Its not a big diff but its still reality. Tech advancments have allowed a 600 to develop more power that can be used and the same can be said for F3 , Neils bike is now 21 years old and with 80 rwhp (and a bit more for next year ) the balance to a 250 will be on a par for accelaration and top end. Where it is a bit un-balanced is in the diet dept, 450s weigh approx 150 - 170kgs give or take and a 250 must be close to 110-120 dripping wet.
I would love to see this suggested prospect have an airing in forums and round tables for the future but the onset of a suitable number of bikes will take a while to filter down to be viable.
Can anyone tell us all how many 250s there are that could turn out to this years season. ???

PS ; Steve.... I always say - give it enough shit to make a differance , but not enough to make it happen.

Paul.

[lostinflyz]

if 250's had a place to race i think youd find some come outta the wood work, and some get brought in. I considered bring one over last year for a bit, but it seemed a waste with no where to race it. so it got poured into nats and the 4 hundy. There are certainly a few people who would get one, if for no other reason than to still have a two stroke.

If you could address the weight balance they would be a nice fit, until someone decided to spend the dosh to have a rocket. then they would do the whole SV defeats 400 go to 450 thing. 700 Sv's and 500 multi's is it???

current supersport times are actually faster than current 250gp times (lap record times). I was surprised too but when you consider what supersport machinery is pumping out, its not to surprising. thus the reason the whole 600 drop a cylinder thing scares the crap outta me.

[scracha]

2 strokes are old, dead and really belong in posties. Don't see the point of bending the rules as a well ridden one should rape the 450cc 4's. If the point is to bring in new riders as a step-up class between 125 and 600 then there's a whole raft of cheap & current bikes that with the correct restrictions could be suitable but are currently ineligible.

GSXF650, CB600F, XJ600, FZ6 to name a few.

Combining some of the above with the current SV's, hyosungs,650 ninjas, shite old 400's, 250 2 smokes and 450 triples and you'd have a ripper of a class.

[lostinflyz]

2 strokes are old, dead and really belong in posties. Don't see the point of bending the rules as a well ridden one should rape the 450cc 4's. If the point is to bring in new riders as a step-up class between 125 and 600 then there's a whole raft of cheap & current bikes that with the correct restrictions could be suitable but are currently ineligible.

GSXF650, CB600F, XJ600, FZ6 to name a few.

Combining some of the above with the current SV's, hyosungs,650 ninjas, shite old 400's, 250 2 smokes and 450 triples and you'd have a ripper of a class.

i'd rather ride an absolutly fucked 80's sports bike, than a cheap commuter turned into wannabe racer. but if the bikes fit the bill (i would have thought most woulda been a bit to grunty) then why not. I think a basic requirment is that they are too slow as stock to be competitve, that some tuning and work needs to go in before you have a proper on the pace f3 bike.

depends how you view f3 re: rider development. to me its a place where something a bit different happens, and its not so much a place for rider development and neccasarily a stepping stone for development riders. I think we have a pretty neat and clear structure for riders to graduate though as they wish at current, and it has developed several good racers already.

[JayRacer37]

Good idea steve, looking at the times that williams and easton were doing at teretonga and levels an older 250 ridden by an equally good rider would probably be right on their heels. Any way you can get more riders/bikes into the class the better.

Another thing I reckon that should happen is that pro twin bikes are allowed to get F3 points. At the moment they are two seperate classes off the same start. The problem is that during a race, if you are an F3 bike following for instance 2 pro twin bikes, there is no incentive to pass them. I've done it, why risk anything when you have nothing to gain? This does nothing to help the crowd that has come to watch. I think this would make the F3 championshop a lot better and shouldn't make a difference to the pro twin class, its a great class and i think 3 years after it was started now it is starting to show its promise!

Considering that a Pro Twin is completly inside the F3 rules, I was quite suprised to learn at the start of the year I wouldn't be accumilating F3 points also...

[Billy]

Let's try that for 2010 to see if it works before launching into NZSBK rules.

Yip,Definitely,Would be good to see the inclusion of the big bore production 250s as well,IE nsr300

[Billy]

2 strokes are old, dead and really belong in posties. Don't see the point of bending the rules as a well ridden one should rape the 450cc 4's. If the point is to bring in new riders as a step-up class between 125 and 600 then there's a whole raft of cheap & current bikes that with the correct restrictions could be suitable but are currently ineligible.

GSXF650, CB600F, XJ600, FZ6 to name a few.

Combining some of the above with the current SV's, hyosungs,650 ninjas, shite old 400's, 250 2 smokes and 450 triples and you'd have a ripper of a class.

Yip,Some good points here,Some of the bikes you mention could be made eligible through supp regs at club level.But you would need to do that through the appropriate channels,The point raised at the start of the thread was regarding the eligibility of the NSR with a Tyga 300 kit.The 250 multi cylinder 2 strokes eligible for F3 are hugely restricted,Mainly due to a Knee jerk reaction from MNZ to stop a repeat of what happened to the Japanese F3 championship back in the late 80s whereby the factory backed 250 2 strokes dominated the class (bearing in mind they were only running against 400s,Not 450 specials or SV650s).The inclusion of Grand Prix based 250s at club level I see no problem with,Sure with the right rider they would and should deal with the current top F3 machines.But make no mistake about it,They are extremely hard to ride too their potential,They may look like a blinged up 250 proddy bike but they are a completely different animal altogether and only the very best riders can make them perform to anywhere near their potential

[slowpoke]

Changing tack a bit, the f3 regs do need a bit of an update, as with this whole 600 lop a cylinder off it thing and custom frames ect, how long before someone gets real clever and shows up with moto2 chassis (they have to go somewhere from year to year, moriwaki (amongst others) will probably sell you one) and drive what is out 3rd division's class costs further and further up. Not to mention the easy avaliability of full supersport kits for 600's to push the brinks even further. as some have mentioned there is currently very few people moving into f3 as is (nationally). f3 is about tinkering and ingeniouty, developing something you dont buy outta a box, with a variety of solutions to a common problem, often starting from a common base.


I kinda like the idea of 300cc production 2 strokes, it would inject a bit more life into the class, and hopefully transfer into the National's scene. The GP stuff is way to quick and is stretching things too far. It's about 7 years since I've seen a well ridden 250GP bike and it was more than competitive with a strong club field of 600's in Western Australia. The latest WSS 600's make +150hp so it's not suprising they edge even the best GP250's.

I'm not sure what you are saying with your last paragraph above. On the one hand you seem to be scared of the custom framed bikes, or 600/450's and on the other you admit that it is our one National Formula class that encourages clever thinking. Formula 3 isn't alone in struggling to attract new entries, it's just the nature of our National series at the moment with strong club numbers failing to translate into strong National entries. But I'd hate to see the rules become more restrictive. Glen Williams and Ozzy (and whoever dreams up the next thing) should be rewarded for their clever thinking, not punished. It's one thing to have an interesting idea, it's quite another to put it into practice and make it work so well done to them for thinking outside the square. What they have done is exactly what the class is all about as far I'm concerned.

[lostinflyz]

I kinda like the idea of 300cc production 2 strokes, it would inject a bit more life into the class, and hopefully transfer into the National's scene. The GP stuff is way to quick and is stretching things too far. It's about 7 years since I've seen a well ridden 250GP bike and it was more than competitive with a strong club field of 600's in Western Australia. The latest WSS 600's make +150hp so it's not suprising they edge even the best GP250's.

I'm not sure what you are saying with your last paragraph above. On the one hand you seem to be scared of the custom framed bikes, or 600/450's and on the other you admit that it is our one National Formula class that encourages clever thinking. Formula 3 isn't alone in struggling to attract new entries, it's just the nature of our National series at the moment with strong club numbers failing to translate into strong National entries. But I'd hate to see the rules become more restrictive. Glen Williams and Ozzy (and whoever dreams up the next thing) should be rewarded for their clever thinking, not punished. It's one thing to have an interesting idea, it's quite another to put it into practice and make it work so well done to them for thinking outside the square. What they have done is exactly what the class is all about as far I'm concerned.

Im not hoping to limit an idea, merely the extent to which ideas can be developed. The concern is that the current reading of the rules allows for someone with a bit of money (or not given a few years) to develop machinery that will obsolete the fields (looking at moto2 and super 600 kits). We have restrictions of 650 machinery already to stop them developing excessive power. It still allows for creative thinking and only limits 1 avenue. I am not proposing to not allow the 450/600 concept to race, just think it needs some limits to stop it having easy openings for a dominate bike (rules almost identical to the current 250 limitations)

I am with you about the way about trying to keep the class open to new ideas and the existing. I just think there are a few avenues that could be limited or stopped (mag and CF rims) to ensure that a variety of solutions at a reasonable budget can be achieved. As someone developing a f3 bike, you have to assume alot of risk when building these (unless your building off an existing platform) and it may be impossible to gauge your success until you've overspent in places you need not have.

the 300 proddy 2 smoker idea seems reasonable.. If i was in the rules i'd allow gp chassis on the proddy 250 motors as is instead though. but just personal opinion cause i think someone like dan makensies NSR motor, or jock's rgv in a Full GP frame would be good enough to win a f3 race in capable hands (both them are probably capable)

[slowpoke]

Nah, carbon fibre up the wazoo, I couldn't care less. At the end of the day someone has to ride the thing and that is where most of the differnce occurs. Even with the restrictions you propose Glen Williams, Terry Fitzgerald and Jason Easton would still be the guys to beat. Open slather I say, it's only one class, and if people are seriously concerned about cost effective racing there are plenty of other classes. There should be at least one class that allows free(-ish) expression, where if you can think it you can do it.

[lostinflyz]

Nah, carbon fibre up the wazoo, I couldn't care less. At the end of the day someone has to ride the thing and that is where most of the differnce occurs. Even with the restrictions you propose Glen Williams, Terry Fitzgerald and Jason Easton would still be the guys to beat. Open slather I say, it's only one class, and if people are seriously concerned about cost effective racing there are plenty of other classes. There should be at least one class that allows free(-ish) expression, where if you can think it you can do it.

yea the point being if you wanna try and get near glen and his kit, you need to outlay around 10 odd grand for a bike, a fair few grand for engine mods and then 4-5 grand for rims. the sums reverse if you do it on a 400 but the figures still come out roughly the same.

as you say glen and terry and jason would be at the front either way. If it was easier (not 20+ odd k) to be on a bike that could match them then there might well be others. sketchy showed that it can be done, to join the front few but how many guys are going to stick in f3 (or even come to f3) with his kind of talent.

I stand morally opposed to a f3 bike costing more to setup than a top level 600. where is the motivation to join f3 if you could have a class up's bike for less.

[steveyb]

Nah, carbon fibre up the wazoo, I couldn't care less. At the end of the day someone has to ride the thing and that is where most of the differnce occurs. Even with the restrictions you propose Glen Williams, Terry Fitzgerald and Jason Easton would still be the guys to beat. Open slather I say, it's only one class, and if people are seriously concerned about cost effective racing there are plenty of other classes. There should be at least one class that allows free(-ish) expression, where if you can think it you can do it.

Open slather you say.
OK, so 250 GP bikes are all go then? Choice!! ;-)

You also indicate that the last time you saw 250GP bikes up against a 600SP bikes was 7 years ago.
Luckily for the 600 riders those bikes have moved on HEAPS since then, while the 250GP bikes up to Honda 2000 and Yamaha 1999 have not really.
Sure it is possible to buy newer parts, but there are still some fundamental limitations therein, hence suggesting the age limits.
Your mention of a range of commuter bikes shows, I think, a flaw in logic. Have a real think (as I will say again) about the current class leading F3 bikes and how much time, sweat, ingenuity and money has gone into them. The same would have to go into any other bike to make it a class leader, 250GP or otherwise.
Also, those bikes all have real limitations as race bikes. Even the SV650 believe it or not. It takes some real tweeking to make one go as well as the F3 front running bikes. And also the Ozzy 450 concept. It is no magic bullet either. With stock suspension and no engine work it would be as slow as any other stock bike. One needs to put in the effort to be at the front, just like anything else.
I think there is alot of comment here from people who have never actually raced 250GP bikes.
As Billy says, they still take a good rider, good set up and plenty of practice to make them go fast.
Only the really best riders can make them go really well, otherwise they are just another bike riding around in mid pack. No bunny is going to hop on and all of a sudden be smoking everyone. That is the feeling I get that I think alot of people think. That they are some magical cure for no talent.

As you were.

Steve

[GSVR]

The rider talent vs bike ability equation.

I see the same old posters here again....


I reacon a good comparision as to how much modifications effect a bike performance is to compare Terry and Glens bikes with The top Protwin bikes. After all those mods they are going two or three seconds faster a lap. Thats huge but what cuts into this is the fact Glen and Terry are probably faster than the top Protwin riders.

If a bikes ability was 0.1 of a second faster than your equal per lap then that is enough to win comfortably. Wow next thing people will be saying you need to spend 10 grand in mods to a Protwin bike to be competitive with the front runners.

[lostinflyz]

The rider talent vs bike ability equation.

I see the same old posters here again....


I reacon a good comparision as to how much modifications effect a bike performance is to compare Terry and Glens bikes with The top Protwin bikes. After all those mods they are going two or three seconds faster a lap. Thats huge but what cuts into this is the fact Glen and Terry are probably faster than the top Protwin riders.

If a bikes ability was 0.1 of a second faster than your equal per lap then that is enough to win comfortably. Wow next thing people will be saying you need to spend 10 grand in mods to a Protwin bike to be competitive with the front runners.

i'd beg to differ. some of the front pro twin's riders (both this year and previously) i would rate to have a shot at f3 glory given good enough equipment. devlopment wise glen's bike is by far the most developed, with jasons a close 2nd and those two are at the front.

as for spending 10 grand in mods to a pro twins bikes, some are doing that. well not in mods so much as refinement. but some are doing it and they are the front runners.

[scracha]

i'd rather ride an absolutly fucked 80's sports bike, than a cheap commuter turned into wannabe racer. but if the bikes fit the bill (i would have thought most woulda been a bit to grunty) then why not. I think a basic requirment is that they are too slow as stock to be competitve, that some tuning and work needs to go in before you have a proper on the pace f3 bike.

Horses for courses. I'm the opposite, it'd rather ride a cheap (you forgot to mention reliable and easy availability of parts) commuter turned racebike than a fucked 80's sports bike. Grunty yes, but heavy and shit handling. Restrictions (as per Pro Twins) on the tuning & suspenders work on these aforementioned modern beasties would keep it interesting, reduce costs and perhaps turn around the SV650 series we currently have at the pointy end of F3



development riders. I think we have a pretty neat and clear structure for riders to graduate though as they wish at current, and it has developed several good racers already.
I disagree and think it's as clear as mud at the moment. As much as I think 600 superstock is the way to go, the 125 (or 250 4 stroke) to 600 jump is huge. The fundamental problem with F3 at the moment is that the rules are largely still based around 25 year old sportsbikes. Then they were fudged to keep 400's competitive with 250 2 strokes. They were then fudged to accommodate 650 commuter twins but that's just a plaster. Now someone on here is proposing fudging the 250 2 strokes to keep them competitive (although they already are) with bored out 400's.

No wonder sponsors are largely uninterested in F3. Not one even remotely modern sportsbike (what was the last one... Aprillia RS250 .... 10 years ago?) fits within the rules so why do we still persist with the strange capacity limits?

[steveyb]

Fudging?
Any racing series worth its weight needs to have a place for smaller capacity machines and also a place for those riders who want to express their ingenuity and engineering skills.
In NZ this is the Formula 3 class. Note, that says Formula.
This means that it is just an amalgam of rules designed to permit a whole swag of different machines into it that may or may not have similar performance levels.
Formula rules are always changed, they are not set in concrete and always allow more work to be done on machines than production racing classes.
Sponsors aren't always interested in supporting the newest and flashest bikes. Some, believe it or not, support the rider and whatever it is they race.
Suggesting rule changes to Formula rules is what Formula racing is all about. Change, development and progress. It is not a place just to dump all the old and small shitbikes, but a place for some ingenuity and interesting mixtures of machines.

As you were.

[satchriossi]

Wow, what a marvellous response to the post! I'm pleased it has provoked such a debate.

I must say that there's no way that i'd be bothering the fast guys on my production based 300cc 2T! I just want to be legitimately able to run my bike in a suitable class.

Just another thing i'd like to point out about the Tyga 300 kit; When i bought my bike it had done 27,000 kms and i'd already made the decision to put a new crank in it and renew all the oil seals and various other bits and pieces in the name of future reliability. The bike got a partial restoration really. The top end needed a rebuild too and a big advantage of the 300 kit is that it uses brand new OEM Honda nikasil plated barrels. This was a big draw for me when making the choice to spend the cash, besides the obvious bling factor of having the bigger engine. I effectively ended up with a brand new motor. I must say that the spanner work and preparation are half the fun of the whole track bike thing for me.

Wiseco pistons are available to suit, as are VHM heads with removable combustion chambers.

[scracha]

Any racing series worth its weight needs to have a place for smaller capacity machines and also a place for those riders who want to express their ingenuity and engineering skills.

250 4 strokes not fit that bill? Also post classics & clubmans. Is it a riders class or an engineering/tuning excercise?


Wow, what a marvellous response to the post! I'm pleased it has provoked such a debate.

I must say that there's no way that i'd be bothering the fast guys on my production based 300cc 2T! I just want to be legitimately able to run my bike in a suitable class.


Essentially wot others have said. If you're not bothering the fast guys and you keep your mouth shut then bung it in F3 (hell, if you're not in the top 5 finishers then I'd say bung it in posties but someone would start bleating......but that's another thread). When you're bothering the fast guys then you'll be able to put it into F2 legitimately and be at the top half of the field.

[nzkr1]

Just leave the rules how they are. If you want to race your 300 you should have thought about that before you built it. Now as for 250 GP bikes they can bugger off too. Have you ever watched the 125 GP bikes race in F3, they are fast and with a good rider are always at the pointy end of the feild.
I ride a 250 stroker which is basicly stock and I can give the odd 650 twin and 450 multi a run for their money. And if I had a whole heap of money I wouldn't be boring it out to 300 there are so many other possibilities for 250 production stroker. But I say if you can't beat'em join'em, if you want to be at the front get a 650 twin and if you want to race your hybrid go in clubmans or go to the track days. Plus I think the PMCC have an open twin class.
I would be quite keen to see a 2 stroke only class!!

[Str8 Jacket]

I would be quite keen to see a 2 stroke only class!!

Oh hell yeah!! Then I wouldn't be the only one carrying a pack of ciggies in their leathers for when the engin goes bang in the middle of a race.... :whistle:

In all seriousness it'd be awesome, there could be a 'junior' and 'senior' class to accomodate all sizes!!

[Billy]

[QUOTE=Str8 Jacket;1129648537

In all seriousness it'd be awesome, there could be a 'junior' and 'senior' class to accomodate all sizes!![/QUOTE]

Are we still talking motorcycles,Cause if not,May need a special superultraminilite class for me Bwahahaha

[Str8 Jacket]

Are we still talking motorcycles,Cause if not,May need a special superultraminilite class for me Bwahahaha

:shake: look mister you know very well it aint based on 'age' it's all about size!

[lostinflyz]

Just leave the rules how they are. If you want to race your 300 you should have thought about that before you built it. Now as for 250 GP bikes they can bugger off too. Have you ever watched the 125 GP bikes race in F3, they are fast and with a good rider are always at the pointy end of the feild.
I ride a 250 stroker which is basicly stock and I can give the odd 650 twin and 450 multi a run for their money. And if I had a whole heap of money I wouldn't be boring it out to 300 there are so many other possibilities for 250 production stroker. But I say if you can't beat'em join'em, if you want to be at the front get a 650 twin and if you want to race your hybrid go in clubmans or go to the track days. Plus I think the PMCC have an open twin class.
I would be quite keen to see a 2 stroke only class!!

how many 450's do you guys have up there??? good effort if you can beat 450's.

we have a two or three two strokes inthe SI than can hold the faster club 400 and mid pack 650 guys but they aint competitive. You are right about 125's and f3 though.

but the thought that you have to have a 650 to be at the front is silly. of the fastest 5 or so f3 guys in nz only 2 are on Sv's.

[lostinflyz]

250 4 strokes not fit that bill? Also post classics & clubmans. Is it a riders class or an engineering/tuning excercise?



Essentially wot others have said. If you're not bothering the fast guys and you keep your mouth shut then bung it in F3 (hell, if you're not in the top 5 finishers then I'd say bung it in posties but someone would start bleating......but that's another thread). When you're bothering the fast guys then you'll be able to put it into F2 legitimately and be at the top half of the field.

club rules is club rules, no one cares and the rules gets broken all the time (not to mention these are set by the club, and never checked). Theres no posties, or f2 at nats level. and thats where f3 regs really apply.

f3 is often not determined by the best rider in allota peoples opinion. so its not a riders class per say, but nor is it always determined by the best bike. so its not jsut an engineering exercise.

[nzkr1]

how many 450's do you guys have up there??? good effort if you can beat 450's.

we have a two or three two strokes inthe SI than can hold the faster club 400 and mid pack 650 guys but they aint competitive. You are right about 125's and f3 though.

but the thought that you have to have a 650 to be at the front is silly. of the fastest 5 or so f3 guys in nz only 2 are on Sv's.

Not sure how many 450s there are as they don’t usually advertise the fact in the program.
Last year in the Vic club winter series I finished 3rd in the post classic juniors which is basicly made up of ZXR400s and the like. In F3 I finished 5th overall and I missed a round too. Not to bad for an old 250 proddy that cost two grand.
What I meant re the 650s is that you could purchase one and with minimal modifications you could be somewhere near the front of the F3 field. The Vic Club run the pro twins and F3 bikes together and the majority of the pro twins finish near the pointy end, even though they are scored separately.

[phoenixgtr]

Ok so I'm very much a newbie to the racing scene, but I still have an opinion. I can't understand why the 250's are so restricted in F3 when the 450's and 650's are free to almost do whatever they want. Why can't they take a leaf out of the bucket's book and only limit the 250 2 strokes to "non competition engines" but allow freedom with the rest of the bike. That would allow you to build a 250 that could be at the pointy end of F3, but wouldn't dominate like a 250GP bike.

As for the 250GP bikes I've seen some of the 125GP riders give the F3 class a hurry up, so I can only imagine what a 250GP bike would do.

For me I think racing a 250 2 stroke would be wicked and that's where I'd like to go, but with the current restrictions it's not really worth it. I may as well get a boring SV. At least then I can tinker with it a bit.

[neil_cb125t]

Not sure how many 450s there are as they don’t usually advertise the fact in the program.
Last year in the Vic club winter series I finished 3rd in the post classic juniors which is basicly made up of ZXR400s and the like. In F3 I finished 5th overall and I missed a round too. Not to bad for an old 250 proddy that cost two grand.
What I meant re the 650s is that you could purchase one and with minimal modifications you could be somewhere near the front of the F3 field. The Vic Club run the pro twins and F3 bikes together and the majority of the pro twins finish near the pointy end, even though they are scored separately.


Last year number 1 and 2 in posties were 444s, followed by george on his little KR. Also the strikingly hansome man that won Posties also won f3 ( beating Svs - yes Glen was absent )...... someone must wanna sponsor that guy!!

Not many people are keen on the 444 kit option becuase they think its too hard to do or unreliable or something. The SV is easier to ride fast out of the box - because its a 650cc!!! I spent less than a setup pro twin bike on mine in the last 3 years - which includes everything ive done to it....rebuilding it from ground up and flats slides and dyno and ohlins and blah blah blah so its cheaper and faster...... lapping faster than Geoff both at manny long track.. on my post clasic machine - that i built - not Mr Suzulki.

F3 is the only Formula class we have - if you want to create something or improve and develope a machine then that is the class to be in. 600 you basically cant touch and then you have to sell it every 2nd year. Some poeple aka ME can't afford to finance TTxing a new 600 every 2nd year..

a 400 cup is where there needs to be a class which i have said before.. standard 400's ( much like the aussie version of formula 400 ) and 250 proddy's. CBR ZXR VFR RGV RS TZR NSRs - simply and awesome sellection and doable on a budget of 5-8k

if you don't want to ride an old bike and keep them going then by a 600 or 1000... but don't complain you cant afford to do that - you wanna be lazy and not fix a bike then bring the money sonny!!

[nzkr1]

Ok so I'm very much a newbie to the racing scene, but I still have an opinion. I can't understand why the 250's are so restricted in F3 when the 450's and 650's are free to almost do whatever they want. Why can't they take a leaf out of the bucket's book and only limit the 250 2 strokes to "non competition engines" but allow freedom with the rest of the bike. That would allow you to build a 250 that could be at the pointy end of F3, but wouldn't dominate like a 250GP bike.

As for the 250GP bikes I've seen some of the 125GP riders give the F3 class a hurry up, so I can only imagine what a 250GP bike would do.

For me I think racing a 250 2 stroke would be wicked and that's where I'd like to go, but with the current restrictions it's not really worth it. I may as well get a boring SV. At least then I can tinker with it a bit.


I know there are some restrictions but what do you plan on doing to your 250?

[lostinflyz]

Last year number 1 and 2 in posties were 444s, followed by george on his little KR. Also the strikingly hansome man that won Posties also won f3 ( beating Svs - yes Glen was absent )...... someone must wanna sponsor that guy!!

Not many people are keen on the 444 kit option becuase they think its too hard to do or unreliable or something. The SV is easier to ride fast out of the box - because its a 650cc!!! I spent less than a setup pro twin bike on mine in the last 3 years - which includes everything ive done to it....rebuilding it from ground up and flats slides and dyno and ohlins and blah blah blah so its cheaper and faster...... lapping faster than Geoff both at manny long track.. on my post clasic machine - that i built - not Mr Suzulki.

F3 is the only Formula class we have - if you want to create something or improve and develope a machine then that is the class to be in. 600 you basically cant touch and then you have to sell it every 2nd year. Some poeple aka ME can't afford to finance TTxing a new 600 every 2nd year..

a 400 cup is where there needs to be a class which i have said before.. standard 400's ( much like the aussie version of formula 400 ) and 250 proddy's. CBR ZXR VFR RGV RS TZR NSRs - simply and awesome sellection and doable on a budget of 5-8k

if you don't want to ride an old bike and keep them going then by a 600 or 1000... but don't complain you cant afford to do that - you wanna be lazy and not fix a bike then bring the money sonny!!

interestingly its a few hundred dollars difference between refreshing and over-boring my motor. i mean honda wants 310 bucks for a ring set (best price i can find) and i have quotes here for 428 pistons at 800 bucks (inc rings and pins). If you were going to have a 400 cup i would doubt itd be a whole lot cheaper than f3, when it came down to it. but it would be awesome with a capitol O. ok so theres boring costs and a few other bits but in terms of the rebuild there aint too much cost difference.

Of course this fails to mention all the other money you gonna end up dropping on it, whether its 400 or 450 (or 650 or a 450 3 cylinder)

[neil_cb125t]

interestingly its a few hundred dollars difference between refreshing and over-boring my motor. i mean honda wants 310 bucks for a ring set (best price i can find) and i have quotes here for 428 pistons at 800 bucks (inc rings and pins). If you were going to have a 400 cup i would doubt itd be a whole lot cheaper than f3, when it came down to it. but it would be awesome with a capitol O. ok so theres boring costs and a few other bits but in terms of the rebuild there aint too much cost difference.

Of course this fails to mention all the other money you gonna end up dropping on it, whether its 400 or 450 (or 650 or a 450 3 cylinder)

The Aussie formula 400 is very restritive - No ohlins shocks, no aftermarker rims, motor has to have starting system, and airbox and filters, nothing more than .5mm oversized slugs. They actually dyno the top 5 bikes ( ZXRs no more than 72 hp at the tyre ) Basically you can rebuild it and thats it...

remember as you up your power the standard shocks wont keep up so its good to keep the power low in that style of class...

[nzkr1]

The Aussie formula 400 is very restritive - No ohlins shocks, no aftermarker rims, motor has to have starting system, and airbox and filters, nothing more than .5mm oversized slugs. They actually dyno the top 5 bikes ( ZXRs no more than 72 hp at the tyre ) Basically you can rebuild it and thats it...

remember as you up your power the standard shocks wont keep up so its good to keep the power low in that style of class...

WOW 72 rear wheel horse power, Id be happy with that on my 250! Do they let 250 production strokers in the formula 400?

[scracha]

Ok so I'm very much a newbie to the racing scene, but I still have an opinion. I can't understand why the 250's are so restricted in F3 when the 450's and 650's are free to almost do whatever they want
Put simply, because ridden properly, the 250's waste stock 400's and 650 twins as they're so light, have comparable power and handle so much better. There's no need to modify them.

[quote=neil_cb125t
if you don't want to ride an old bike and keep them going then by a 600 or 1000... but don't complain you cant afford to do that - you wanna be lazy and not fix a bike then bring the money sonny!!
[/quote]
You're getting posties and F3 mixed up Neil. As you know I'm totally with yer on the Aussie Formula 400 being implemented here, with the restrictions in place it's the closest to the old "proddy 250" days and as such is the most popular class over there.....
BUT
It should be part of a pre 98 posties class or summit . I honestly don't think F3 should still be based around such old bikes. F3 should be about innovation and suchlike...but not on 20 year old bikes. That's why the 450 triples should be applauded.

I don't particularly want to ride a REALLY old bike, and I don't particularly want to sell my arm and competitively race a 600 or 1000. There must be some middle ground?

Question for old Jedi masters like Billy and Roadracingfart :- What would you do with F3 to bring in more interest and fucking loads of young riders just like the good old "proddy 250 days".

Notice the Aussie PCRA are moving up to Pre 95. Aren't VMCC running a pre 95 class this year?

[JayRacer37]

I don't particularly want to ride a REALLY old bike, and I don't particularly want to sell my arm and competitively race a 600 or 1000. There must be some middle ground?



Ummm....Pro Twins?

Surely with a great middle ground class like 650PT just above 125 and below 600's, F3 goes back to being open slather based on capacity limits and non racing based motors? That way anyone who wants to can go and dick around with thier bike, and those that want a cheap class with low mantanence bikes and low overheads go 650PT?

As for people saying that there needs to be ANOTHER filler class because the 125 to 600 jump is to big, thats bollocks. There all motor bikes. If your worried it would be too different, do a season in pro twin to get a handle on 4 stroke caricteristcs and bigger/heavier bikes. Other than that the trasfer 125 t0 600 is easy, you just need a level head - look at how Cam Jones is getting on, he will have it nailed in the near future I predict. In the last couple of years look at - Adam Chambers, Sam Smith, Nick Cole, Karl Morgan, Me, Dom Jones - all of these people are around my age and made the jump in the last 5 years easy enough. It really shows there doesn't need to be another class except as clubmans/tinkerers (F3) and low budget modern and rider focussed (Pro Twin).

[quickbuck]

As for people saying that there needs to be ANOTHER filler class because the 125 to 600 jump is to big, thats bollocks.

I guess you are right Jay.... After all it is like... Well, Riding a bike.

I mean, once you put all the riding techniques in place, the principles are all the same.... Okay, you can "Get away" with some things on one class that you will not on another (and that goes both ways), but yeah, I see exactly where you are coming from......
And not to make a certain person on here have to buy a bigger helmet, I would say if he could afford it, he would do fine in the top class too..... Okay, no Stroud/ Shirrifs/ Frost/ Fitzgerald etc (in no particular order, and please don't feel upset if I missed a name or two ;) ) yet, BUT you know.... Could be....

[Ivan]

I agree I did the 125 to pro twin to 600 step and I thought it was a good way as the 125 is very peaky and nimble and the SV is very torquey but doesnt bite to bad were as the 600 is very bity but I learnt how to ride from the progression from pro twin

[Billy]

Question for old Jedi masters like Billy and Roadracingfart :- What would you do with F3 to bring in more interest and fucking loads of young riders just like the good old "proddy 250 days".

Notice the Aussie PCRA are moving up to Pre 95. Aren't VMCC running a pre 95 class this year?

Old???Dont you mean experienced lol

I dont believe F3 at club level needs any tinkering with,Every club day I have been too has been mostly oversubscribed for that class.Its at Nationaql level that it needs improvement,Having said that I dont beleive its a machinery problem there either,Rather its a bang for buck/rider attitude issue,One thing that I have identified that differs from the old days (read 80s and early 90s) is the huge amount of equipment each competitor needs just to stay on a level playing feild.Back then I dont remember anyone trapsing around the South Island with a generator/Tyre warmers/compressor,Not only does it add to the budget,It also limits how many people can travel in one vehicle which in turn means most people today travel solo obviously reducing the option to share costs and make it affordable.Add to that additional money spent on suspension that wasnt available back then and youve added around $10,000.00 to a season.Apart from that little has changed in relation to running a 250 proddy bike as opposed too a 600 on todays market,A new RGV was $13200.00 retail back then and we were still using a pair of tyres a meeting.

Riders attitudes have changed since then as well,Some of which I understand,I mean who wants to travel all the way from Auckland too Invercargill with their Stock ZXR/CBR/VFR400 only too be stopped from racing because you couldnt qualify within 115% of a $60k rocket.I believe the way forward for F3 is through the initiatives of people like Ozzy with his 450 triple,Thats what the class is about and how it should remain,Starting a class for 20 year old 400s is most definitely NOT going to help.

To sum up,I dont have the silver bullet too fix roadracing in this country and I dont want too have it!I retired from serious competition in 92 and went on too run the winter series and a number of National points rounds,Have been a roadrace convener/Clerk of the course/MNZ steward and banged my head against the wall that is MNZ until Id had enough.

Youve got a roadrace commission now,All those guys are very experienced racers to the extent they all hold National titles,You know who they are ,Theyre very accessable and open too reasonable ideas,Ready and willing to help,If roadracing doesnt move forward under these guys,Then dont point the finger at them,Thats who you should be running your ideas by.

[roadracingoldfart]

Youve got a roadrace commission now,All those guys are very experienced racers to the extent they all hold National titles,You know who they are ,Theyre very accessable and open too reasonable ideas,Ready and willing to help,If roadracing doesnt move forward under these guys,Then dont point the finger at them,Thats who you should be running your ideas by.


And i cant wait to see Ian again to shake his hand and tell him to change the rules to suit me , hes my new best old friend lol.

[quickbuck]

And i cant wait to see Ian again to shake his hand and tell him to change the rules to suit me , hes my new best old friend lol.

So we back to racing early 90's 400's???? ;)

[roadracingoldfart]

So we back to racing early 90's 400's???? ;)


hell nooooooooooooooo , i wanna ride a 600 in F3 .
I never rode a 90s 400 lol they were all old shitters compared to the 90s offerings.

[quickbuck]

hell nooooooooooooooo , i wanna ride a 600 in F3 .
I never rode a 90s 400 lol they were all old shitters compared to the 90s offerings.
Yes... My 1987 400 was the best of them i have to say :yes:

600 in F3? Soooo how do we go about sorting that?
Would it be something like 4.5 inch Rear Wheel Max, and steel frames only....
If you want an Alloy Frame, and wider wheels, then you are limited to 450 4 cyl, or 650 twin, or 750 Air Cooled twin.....

[roadracingoldfart]

Yes... My 1987 400 was the best of them i have to say :yes:

600 in F3? Soooo how do we go about sorting that?
Would it be something like 4.5 inch Rear Wheel Max, and steel frames only....
If you want an Alloy Frame, and wider wheels, then you are limited to 450 4 cyl, or 650 twin, or 750 Air Cooled twin.....


Ohh you sensible fool , i just want a 600 with 400 stickers on it . Dont make it too hard by asking tech questions , i dont do questions very well.

[scracha]

600 in F3? Soooo how do we go about sorting that?
Would it be something like 4.5 inch Rear Wheel Max, and steel frames only....

At least some old geezer on a triple wouldn't run into the back of me if the 'cane was allowed in F3.

[crazy man]

Hey,

Seeing as the rules allow overbored 400cc four strokes to <460(?)cc - how would someone go about getting <300cc two strokes allowed? Is there someone important who i can moan at to get the rules altered? Either that or get the pro-twins opened up to <300cc production based two strokes - that'd be as good really seeing as they classes run together in the Vic club anyway.

Does anyone know the exact regs for F2? I read that Glen Skachill ran an RS250 Honda GP bike in F2 a couple of years ago. I can't find rules for the class that state exactly what machines are elligible to run.

Chur,

Tomdont tell anyone just ride dude