Your valued opinion please! Can I still ride with this broken?

[oldskool]

Okay so the sprocket bolts unwound for the 3rd time, even with loctite on. This time I was not so lucky, one of the bolt holes in the wheel hub cracked off. Is this still rideable or should I get it repaired first.
If I need to get it repaired what is the best way. If I need to replace the wheel...does anyone have one sitting in their shed?
Your 2 cents worth appreciated!!!

[MaxB]

Personally I would get it fixed. What if you were belting along and the back locked up?

There are wheel repairers like this guy:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/114300-Alloy-wheel-repairs-Auckland

You may find it cheaper to get a used wheel from a breakers if they are a common size.

KTM have owners clubs all over the world, maybe its worth going online to see if they will help.

[R6_kid]

Looks like it was overtightened. Also, why weren't you using lock nuts?

[oldskool]

Looks like it was overtightened. Also, why weren't you using lock nuts?

? Not even worth answering this!

[scott411]

it will fail soon anyway, and the only repair from here is replacing the hub, it may be worth the risk as i do not think it will do any more damage if it fails,

[oldskool]

it will fail soon anyway, and the only repair from here is replacing the hub, it may be worth the risk as i do not think it will do any more damage if it fails,

Yeah it will probably fail tomorrow halfway up one of those hardish hills you described!!

It was suggested the problem is vibration resonating through the light rear sprocket that shook the nuts loose. I am inclined to agree as the problem seems to have started after a new sprocket was attached.
Nuts and Bolts from Cycletreads, I wonder if I should have got a different brand?

[CookMySock]

Those nuts and bolts don't look like the right ones.

Steve

[noobi]

1.what is the blue stuff?
2.what kind of locktite are you using?
2a.how much of said locktite did you use?
3.did you clean the nuts and bolts with contact cleaner before applying the locktite?
4.did you change the sprocket or are you refering to the newish one that was on it when you bought it?

[oldskool]

Let's make this clear seeing as everyone is looking at how it happened instead of giving advice to what to do now.
What you see now is not what I initially did before the breakage. This is the end result of frustration. Look carefully. You will see the proper nuts underneath the unconventional 'lockingnuts' which I have yet to try .
If I recall the nuts were loose when I bought it.

[xen]

If its blue loctite, you'd wanna use red

[CookMySock]

If I recall the nuts were loose when I bought it.This being the case, the bolts will likely now refuse to sit tightly in their holes, no matter how tightly you do them up. Double nut or locknuts won't do jack, as the real issue is the sprocket moving on the hub. No amount of force holding the sprocket on will resolve this.

In answer to your question, yes you should be able to ride it, but you will have to torque-turn everything properly with bolts that are just the right tensile strength. Too soft and they will just break, too strong and they will mash the hub or sprocket without entering their elastic region.
http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q="torque+turn+method"

Worst case, you will have to replace the bolts, sprocket, and hub.

Steve

[oldskool]

This being the case, the bolts will likely now refuse to sit tightly in their holes, no matter how tightly you do them up. Double nut or locknuts won't do jack, as the real issue is the sprocket moving on the hub. No amount of force holding the sprocket on will resolve this.

In answer to your question, yes you should be able to ride it, but you will have to torque-turn everything properly with bolts that are just the right tensile strength. Too soft and they will just break, too strong and they will mash the hub or sprocket without entering their elastic region.
http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q="torque+turn+method"

Worst case, you will have to replace the bolts, sprocket, and hub.

Steve

Thanks Steve, very informative, new bolts and damaged sprocket not bedding was something I did not realise, ...makes sense though!

[flyingcr250]

id still fell comfortable riding with the hub like that :2thumbsup: check the sholder legnth of the bolt, if its even a fraction too long it wont tighten up properly ( it will seem tight, but it wont be), also check the taper on the head of the bolt compared to the taper on the sprocket, if they are aftermarket bolts i would try to get some genuine bolts( there may be a slight difference in the angle of the taper)and like every one has said, use the red loctite, i use the stud-locker one not the thread-locker one. as for repairs, id say find another hub, in my experience fixing/welding cast alloy is difficult and results vary, especially on areas were high loads are exerted on the welded area.

[oldskool]

id still fell comfortable riding with the hub like that :2thumbsup: check the sholder legnth of the bolt, if its even a fraction too long it wont tighten up properly ( it will seem tight, but it wont be), also check the taper on the head of the bolt compared to the taper on the sprocket, if they are aftermarket bolts i would try to get some genuine bolts( there may be a slight difference in the angle of the taper)and like every one has said, use the red loctite, i use the stud-locker one not the thread-locker one. as for repairs, id say find another hub, in my experience fixing/welding cast alloy is difficult and results vary, especially on areas were high loads are exerted on the welded area.

Hi Steven,
Yes I am tempted to ride tomorrow. I used to ride a XR500 with one of the hub mounting holes broken, it wasn't an issue but that sprocket was a solid beasty which was more or less seized permanently onto the hub until you fair whacked it off with a mallet.
I wonder if fabricating up a 'C' shaped bracket and drilling holes in it that matched say 3 of the holes in the hub. Placing this over the offending breakage should reinforce it and provide a support for that bolt that goes in the broken hole wouldn't it?
If I rode tomorrow, you reckon I should remove the dodgily mounted bolt? Should it slip off it may damage my swingarm more?

[krad_nz]

I accidentally over-tightened, then snapped off one of my rear sprocket bolts. Given that I wanted to ride, I removed the damaged bolt and double checked the rest of them were on properly. Then went for the ride anyway :P
I got away with it in this case.,

[flyingcr250]

Hi Steven,
Yes I am tempted to ride tomorrow. I used to ride a XR500 with one of the hub mounting holes broken, it wasn't an issue but that sprocket was a solid beasty which was more or less seized permanently onto the hub until you fair whacked it off with a mallet.
I wonder if fabricating up a 'C' shaped bracket and drilling holes in it that matched say 3 of the holes in the hub. Placing this over the offending breakage should reinforce it and provide a support for that bolt that goes in the broken hole wouldn't it?
If I rode tomorrow, you reckon I should remove the dodgily mounted bolt? Should it slip off it may damage my swingarm more?

id just leave it out, ive ridden with 2 missing bolts before, i drove home from work with only 4 of the 6 wheel studs on my van, i think you should be ok. just tighten up the remaining bolts inbetween laps. thats what id do anyway lol

[oldskool]

id just leave it out, ive ridden with 2 missing bolts before, i drove home from work with only 4 of the 6 wheel studs on my van, i think you should be ok. just tighten up the remaining bolts inbetween laps. thats what id do anyway lol

I'll listen to you...you're a pro!!! See you there!

[flyingcr250]

PRO? lol, more like "ALL CARE NO RESPONSIBILLITY" ha ha ha:sweatdrop

[L Rider]

Hey Evan, do you remember my rear sprocket bolts breaking at Thunder? Mine damaged swingarm (we had thought new swingarm) & also did same as yours to one of the bolt holes on the hub. John took it into somewhere on Barry's Point Rd I think it was (recommended by Greg at Sprectrum) and they repaired both swing arm & hub plus welded part of the KX's frame for $100.
Unsure what happened first as to what damage was caused when though.

[oldskool]

Hey thanks Joan, yeah I'll most probably do something like that to the hub. After googling apparently its quite common for sprocket nuts to come undone on these newer fandangled dirt bikes!!

[L Rider]

It came out really good, can't tell its been done and so far has held up good. Think these things do just happened as when i headed out that day mine were all tight but instead they broke. If you want the name of the place send a message through FB to John - he may remember.

[cheese]

Probably brugar engineering. Spelling could be waaaaaaaaaaaaay wrong.

[Reckless]

Probably brugar engineering. Spelling could be waaaaaaaaaaaaay wrong.

You probably mean Bruin engineering. Tjebbe Bruin (spelling??) I have lost his number now! Look for a Waitamata ride brouchure or thread he has a lot to do with that club ( I think).
He's in Glenfield somewhere I think? he made the fly wheel weight for my Cr250 many moons ago has a workshop in his home with lathes etc he's very good.

Here found it http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/117976-Riverhead-forest-twilight-trailride-this-friday-feb-5

[B0000M]

nah he means brugar engineering... this guy is down the driveway just past the bendon underwear shop on your way up barrys pt road - #7 . across the road from the foodtown. he seems to like to do everything cheap too :)

he repairs alloy wheels on cars etc too. ive had him do a few jobs, including repairing a mag on my supra after a sheep broke it (long story)

[cheese]

Just thinking, is your sprocket off center and that is causing the issues?

[Ktmboy]

A sheep story?

Oldskool, I personally wouldn't ride it. You are only going to do more damage. Here is a product that works better than anything else out there in regards to vibration.
www.nordlock.com
These are the biz. Better than anything including Nylock, which are not that great really. I have the Junkers test kit here.
Hylton Parker Fasteners in Albany have them in stock.

[telliman]

once had this problem on my kx, was told to use spring washers and never happened again, maybe a long shot i know!

[oldskool]

A sheep story?

Oldskool, I personally wouldn't ride it. You are only going to do more damage. Here is a product that works better than anything else out there in regards to vibration.
www.nordlock.com
These are the biz. Better than anything including Nylock, which are not that great really. I have the Junkers test kit here.
Hylton Parker Fasteners in Albany have them in stock.

They look like they'll do the business!

[LBD]

Hub broken, holes flogged out ....bolts/ studs will be moving in holes, nuts will be moving against the hub...This is the Root cause of your ongoing problem....Replace hub, sprocket, studs or bolts and nuts.

You may get away with tightning up as many bolts as you can, then remove one at a time, drill out and fit next size bolts in the new close tolerance holes. Maybe use flat hard washers against the aluminum casting and loctite blue on bolts. Torque bolts up to correct tension for new bolt size.

[oldskool]

Hub broken, holes flogged out ....bolts/ studs will be moving in holes, nuts will be moving against the hub...This is the Root cause of your ongoing problem....Replace hub, sprocket, studs or bolts and nuts.

You may get away with tightning up as many bolts as you can, then remove one at a time, drill out and fit next size bolts in the new close tolerance holes. Maybe use flat hard washers against the aluminum casting and loctite blue on bolts. Torque bolts up to correct tension for new bolt size.

Awesome suggestion! What you describe gives me a good understanding of what is happening.
This is what I'll do. Seeing as it's flogged already I'll ride it again today (with care and plenty of checking!). Over the week I'll take the wheel down to this Brugar Engineering place as it's just down the road. I'll see what he can do to close up the holes and drill them out and repair the broken one. If a no go then I'll cast around for a wheel. I'll replace the offending sprocket too.
When it's all back together again I'll give these Nordlock washers a go...with loctite, correct torque and sequence.

[tommorth]

how did it go ? bolt short may lead to the rest being under to much load and breaking stuffing swingarm then chain comes off and takes out cluch slave and cases could be expensive

A couple of the sproket bolts have been oversized probably from exactly the same reason

[oldskool]

All good, no drama's, but that doesn't mean to say I won't have it looked at!

[Buddy L]

I was running these "STAR WASHERS" on my bike at the time, with locktight, i got complacent and didn't check sprocket bolts for awhile. And on one race they worked lose and distoryed my hub completly.:oi-grr::pinch:

[oldskool]

I was running these "STAR WASHERS" on my bike at the time, with locktight, i got complacent and didn't check sprocket bolts for awhile. And on one race they worked lose and distoryed my hub completly.:oi-grr::pinch:

FARRR... that's extreme! Those washers look similar to the Nordlocks Tony mentioned. But I think maybe the Nords use 2 sandwiched together.

[L Rider]

I was running these "STAR WASHERS" on my bike at the time, with locktight, i got complacent and didn't check sprocket bolts for awhile. And on one race they worked lose and distoryed my hub completly.:oi-grr::pinch:

Thats impressive!! Makes what happened to my bike look like a wee scratch

[Buddy L]

And new hubs arn't cheap, $500 and thats without getting it laced up to the rim. Did that my self to save a bit of coin.

[B0000M]

heres my opinion.

get your fucked hub.

throw fucked hub in the bin

replace fucked hub
( http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KTM-REAR-HUB-fits-05-09s-125-450s-NEW-in-the-box_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3caa09dfa1QQitemZ26 0550811553QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories )

re lace rim yourself (search forum for how to - its easy)

replace sprocket.

replace studs / bolts & nuts & washers

live happily ever after, having only wasted a couple of hundred bucks and have brand new parts.


= Win

[howdamnhard]

Replace it. Then use a different style stiff nut. Maybe a nylock or a metal stiff nut where it has the metal locking part running around the whole circumference,instead of just 2 places. Otherwise you could use castelleated nuts and split pins but they will be harder to obtain the correct torque and line up. Go to any engineering supplies shop, they should be able to fix you up.

[Ktmboy]

No where near the same beast Buddy L. Have a look at the website and play the Junkers test video. Try to understand the dynamics of how they work.
I am quite happy to prove that Castlelated nuts, Nyloc, double nut, star washers and spring washers are no match for this system.

Boooms idea is still the best.

[barty5]

burn it buy the yamaha you where thinking of

[Keithf]

Dunno about that the bolts on my mates WR 450 have started to work themselves loose for some reason and have gouged a chunk out of his swing arm-mind you his style of maintenance is to fix things when they are broke....

[Factoryjohn]

Those nuts and bolts don't look like the right ones.

Steve

Dont look like the right bolts to me either

[laserracer]

burn it buy the yamaha you where thinking of

LOL...was kinda thinkin the same thing

[1vanvan1]

Looks like it was overtightened. Also, why weren't you using lock nuts?

You fail gareth. There are lock nuts on top of the standard nuts. I know what you mean though. You should of used self locking nuts with a nyloc insert.

Did you torque them to the correct torque value or just as hard as you could? I just learnt all about correct torque and stuff. If you damage the threads by over tightening youll make a lot more work for yourself.

[Jinxycat]

burn it buy the yamaha you where thinking of

you know it makes sense, lol

[laserracer]

or the ultimate KTM fix seems to be ...... paint it orange.......that shoild fix it

[motorbyclist]

It was suggested the problem is vibration resonating through the light rear sprocket that shook the nuts loose. I am inclined to agree as the problem seems to have started after a new sprocket was attached.

My mate had the same problem with loosening sprocket nuts on his YZ426F which simply refused to go away after months (years?) of loctite, double nuts and then double nylock nuts, before the holes in the hub went visibly oval and he drilled them out to fit bigger bolts... using a hand drill... end solution was a blingy new rim from the states for around $500

and yes, it can be a problem as when the bolts came out while riding they hit the swingarm and locked the wheel thus stalling the motor.... I even rear-ended him once because of it and gave him a fair knock as I flew over my handlebars and into his shoulder :laugh:


You probably mean Bruin engineering. Tjebbe Bruin (spelling??) I have lost his number now! Look for a Waitamata ride brouchure or thread he has a lot to do with that club ( I think).
He's in Glenfield somewhere I think? he made the fly wheel weight for my Cr250 many moons ago has a workshop in his home with lathes etc he's very good.


+1 he did a mint job welding up my magnesium flywheel cover too