Legal advice needed!

[dave_a]

Hi guys

Bit of a dilemma here,

I brought a car about 8 months ago, I then sold it around 3 months ago.

I have now got a angry email back from the guy who brought it saying that there is money owing against the vehicle from one of the previous owners(not the guy I brought it off either).

is there anything he can do? am I liable for anything.

I had no idea any money was owing and neither did the guy before me.

[onearmedbandit]

Ownership has passed, so no it's not your problem.

Oh, and asking for legal advice on a forum is asking for trouble. Ring your local citizen advice bureau.

[Mully]

Woo Hoo - Bush Lawyers in da house!!!!

I think it's his problem (i.e. it was your problem while you owned the car) but I don't know for certain.

Get thee to a CAB as suggested by OAB

[dave_a]

I have called but have to wait untill tommorow just wondered if any lawyers or someone who has gone through the same thing could shed any light on this

[Coldrider]

Does the dude who is owed the money have the car registered on the Personal Property Security Register?

[dave_a]

how do I find that out?

[Coldrider]

how do I find that out?
www.ppsr.govt.nz

you will need the vin number of the car as well
also if there is a security check the date lodged vs your purchase date.

[avgas]

He can't do shit.
It is his responsibility to check that everything is in order before purchase. Who the hell buys a vehicle without checking it these days? If you register with www.Carfax.co.nz its only a couple of $'s to check.
Many on KB have been burned in the past through buying vehicles that have finances owing. They could do nothing then.

[mynameis]

Hi guys

Bit of a dilemma here,

I brought a car about 8 months ago, I then sold it around 3 months ago.

I have now got a angry email back from the guy who brought it saying that there is money owing against the vehicle from one of the previous owners(not the guy I brought it off either).

is there anything he can do? am I liable for anything.

I had no idea any money was owing and neither did the guy before me.

His problem now not yours, as he is the legal owner of the car. He should have done his checks.

The company who has registered the car as security can even take posession of the car and he won't be able to do anything.

He needs to get hold of the person who owes money and he/she has to pay up before it will be released.

It's just a case of tough luck.

That's why you alwyas do a CHECK before you buy to make sure there are no interest/security against the vehicle.

Interesting thing is where was the finance company for the past few months when you and the guy before you owned the car?

[Mully]

Interesting thing is where was the finance company for the past few months when you and the guy before you owned the car?

I wondered that too - if I had to guess, probably sending the Overdue Notices, then the Final Notices, then the "Don't make us break your legs" Notices, and then putting to their baliffs. Then tracking down the car.

[FJRider]

And as far as the car goes ... its just one thing less the guy who originally owed the money can sell/have taken off him ...

NOT YOUR PROBLEM ... give the new owner the big :finger:

[breakaway]

This is the buyer's fault for not doing the appropriate checks.

[CookMySock]

money is in the bank, money is in the bank, money is in the baaaaaaaaaaaaank, money is in the bank, oooooooo, money is in the baaaaaaaank.... :killingme

Steve

[neels]

It's not your problem, buyer beware etc etc.

Also, does it actually have money owing or does it just have a security against it? When I bought my bike the owner had to clear it with the company he bought it from and from a finance company. In both cases he had paid the money back but they hadn't cleared the record against the bike because they were lazy.

[mynameis]

And as far as the car goes ... its just one thing less the guy who originally owed the money can sell/have taken off him ...

NOT YOUR PROBLEM ... give the new owner the big :finger:

I wouldn't give him the finger, a tad bit over the top. It's a moral delima as well. If I was the seller I'd somewhat feel slightly responsible for his problem and try and help him out as much as possible.

People cock up, shit happens you never know what brick wall you'd hit someday.


money is in the bank, money is in the bank, money is in the baaaaaaaaaaaaank, money is in the bank, oooooooo, money is in the baaaaaaaank.... :killingme

Steve

Are you retarded? I don't see anything funny about it.

[mynameis]

I wondered that too - if I had to guess, probably sending the Overdue Notices, then the Final Notices, then the "Don't make us break your legs" Notices, and then putting to their baliffs. Then tracking down the car.

Yeap probably.

Another thing is why would a finance company use the car they are financing as a security when they know cars can be sold.

Frosty might be able to throw some light on this.

[Mully]

Also, does it actually have money owing or does it just have a security against it? .

Would they have repo'd it if there'd only been a security on it, and no money owing?

Doesn't sound right.

[neels]

Would they have repo'd it if there'd only been a security on it, and no money owing?

Doesn't sound right.

Didn't see anything in the first post about it being repo'ed, just that he'd found out there was money owing which is how it looks on a carjam report if the paperwork hasn't been done.

If there's money owed, then he's fucked, if it's just an old security then it can be cleared with a phone call.

[Mully]

Didn't see anything in the first post about it being repo'ed, just that he'd found out there was money owing which is how it looks on a carjam report if the paperwork hasn't been done.

If there's money owed, then he's fucked, if it's just an old security then it can be cleared with a phone call.

Oh yeah, didn't see that. Well spotted.

I figured out the angry phone call came when they repo'd it.

Good point.

[FJRider]

I wouldn't give him the finger, a tad bit over the top. It's a moral delima as well. If I was the seller I'd somewhat feel slightly responsible for his problem and try and help him out as much as possible.

People cock up, shit happens you never know what brick wall you'd hit someday.

Why would YOU feel slightly responsible ... the car was sold "in good faith" ... The buyer should have made the appropiate checks {as should have the seller when HE bought it} and the problem would not have arisen {for him}

The problem was avoidable ... just too lazy to check... and his ass gets bitten ...

May this be a warning to OTHERS ... check ...

[mynameis]

Why would YOU feel slightly responsible ... the car was sold "in good faith" ... The buyer should have made the appropiate checks {as should have the seller when HE bought it} and the problem would not have arisen {for him}

The problem was avoidable ... just too lazy to check... and his ass gets bitten ...

May this be a warning to OTHERS ... check ...

Exactly, you answered your own question. I assume the original poster didn't check himself hence he wasn't aware of it. If he would have he either wouldn't have bought the car or sorted it out before buying it.

But he got it, used it and sold it after x months.

But if someone responsible did the check and made him aware of it then it would be his problem today not the new owners aye. Personal thing I wouldn't shaft him and say pee off nothing to do with me I'd help. Simple.

[onearmedbandit]

Yeap probably.

Another thing is why would a finance company use the car they are financing as a security when they know cars can be sold.

Frosty might be able to throw some light on this.

Other than getting a lein on a home what other security could you offer that couldn't be sold? I was in car sales for 11yrs, the car is always the security, and when dealing with first tier lenders you typically don't get problems, as the criteria is higher. However, the lower end finance companies are not beyond employing gang members etc to prompt slow payments, or track down a missing car. And despite the car being sold, you can guarantee the finance company is either seeking redress from the person on the finance form or the dealer (recourse or non-recourse finance. One means the it isn't the dealers responsibility, the other means the dealer owes the money). I know of one dealership (no longer operating afaik) who had ignition killers in their vehicles that were financed to extremely high risk payers, along with GPS. If any payment was missed the cars ignition was remotely disabled and the repo agent sent to collect it. He found cars (that were sold in ChCh) all over NZ.

[Lucy]

There are still finance companies?

[YellowDog]

As has been said, he was a mug to buy it without checking. You were a mug too :)

One point, whenever I uy a car or bike or anything I get two copies of the receipt signed by both parties which allways states that the seller is the lawful owner and it is free of any financial liability to third any parties.

Provided you haven't signed something similar just give the guy the utmost sympathy and gratitude for taking it off your hands. "I didn't know guv. Honest!"

[Mully]

Just out of curiousity (cos I'm only a bush lawyer, so I need more information) - if the OP had been asked specifically by the buyer whether there was a security on the vehicle and said no, would be be liable for punishment for misrepresentation?

[Tank]

money is in the bank, money is in the bank, money is in the baaaaaaaaaaaaank, money is in the bank, oooooooo, money is in the baaaaaaaank.... :killingme

Steve


Are you retarded? I don't see anything funny about it.

It just shows the morals of the guy (unless it happens to him of course). Yet another warning to anyone who ever deals with DB.

[Little Miss Trouble]

Asuming for a moment that the reason that he's pissed of is that he's now trying to on sell the car himself & a potential buyer is the one who's discovered the security registered on the car...

First port of call is to ring the company who holds the security interest. As someone has already said it may just be a residual 'I'm too lazy to fill in the forms properly & release the security' thing on the part of someone within the company (As was the case with the bike I've just bought) in which case it can all be sorted withing 24hrs.

Or, they may not even know the vehicle has been on sold & will then go through the process of tracking down the previous owner to get their payment so they can release it.

However, if the company have tracked the car down & repo'd it then its a case of, too bad, so sad & buyer beware etc

[dave_a]

car has not been repod, he is trying to sell it and someone has done a check on it.

I called GE but they couldnt tell me anything about it. who,how much owing etc etc

[EJK]

Bring him to the forum. Let us be the judge.

[onearmedbandit]

Just out of curiousity (cos I'm only a bush lawyer, so I need more information) - if the OP had been asked specifically by the buyer whether there was a security on the vehicle and said no, would be be liable for punishment for misrepresentation?

It is up to the buyer to establish whether there is money owing or not. I remember one example where a major franchise down here traded a vehicle, salesperson only asked if there was money owing. It wasn't until they went to sell the car to another dealer that they discovered a major security on it, that they now owned.


car has not been repod, he is trying to sell it and someone has done a check on it.

I called GE but they couldnt tell me anything about it. who,how much owing etc etc

They won't unfortunately, they will only release that info to anyone listed on the original agreement. Nothing to do with you anyway, your responsibility ended when you sold the car, and at the time the worst they could do is repo the vehicle.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but it is ultimately the buyers responsibiity to be careful, you sold the vehicle in good faith, he should've checked before buying.

[mynameis]

Other than getting a lein on a home what other security could you offer that couldn't be sold? I was in car sales for 11yrs, the car is always the security, and when dealing with first tier lenders you typically don't get problems, as the criteria is higher. However, the lower end finance companies are not beyond employing gang members etc to prompt slow payments, or track down a missing car. And despite the car being sold, you can guarantee the finance company is either seeking redress from the person on the finance form or the dealer (recourse or non-recourse finance. One means the it isn't the dealers responsibility, the other means the dealer owes the money). I know of one dealership (no longer operating afaik) who had ignition killers in their vehicles that were financed to extremely high risk payers, along with GPS. If any payment was missed the cars ignition was remotely disabled and the repo agent sent to collect it. He found cars (that were sold in ChCh) all over NZ.

I may have put this in the wrong way. What I meant was why should finance companies be using the car as security when they are financing the car itself i.e. the item isn't paid and free itself.

If they were to use some other personal property of the person which is paid off and free then the problem wouldn't exist right? You get what I am saying? I.e. the financee owns a boat worth 11k which is free then load the security against that as opposed to the car which he's getting a loan for.

Using the car just creates loop holes and shafts innocent people just like in this case.


There are still finance companies?

:lol:


Just out of curiousity (cos I'm only a bush lawyer, so I need more information) - if the OP had been asked specifically by the buyer whether there was a security on the vehicle and said no, would be be liable for punishment for misrepresentation?

NO because CGA doesn't cover private sale of second hand goods.


It just shows the morals of the guy (unless it happens to him of course). Yet another warning to anyone who ever deals with DB.

:weird:


Bring him to the forum. Let us be the judge.

:not: Are you Judge Judy or Judge Christina ?

[Coldrider]

Contractual Remedies Act and Sale of Goods Act (it still exists but largely superseeded by FTA and CGA) still apply.

These two points taken from dept consumer affairs.
For private sales
Contractual Remedies Act
Under this Act you may have rights against a private seller if you can prove that:
• you were persuaded to buy the vehicle by what the seller said, and
• the seller’s statements are untrue, and
• the seller’s false statements have caused you loss.

Was the current owner misled, or did the sellar make reasonably steps to ensure the vehicle was actually debt free?


Sale of Goods Act
The Sale of Goods Act gives you the right to cancel a contract or claim compensation where, unknown to you, the seller did not have the right to sell the goods, or the goods were being used as security. You can claim your money back from the seller because they sold you a vehicle when they did not have the right to.
eg, Tusi buys a car from a friend. She’s had the car for two weeks when she gets a call from a finance company saying that the car was on hire purchase, and they want it back. Tusi can take a claim to the Disputes Tribunal to recover her money from her friend.

The prob with this one is has the innocent seller got he right to resell the vehicle.

Also there are a few 'outs' for the registerd security.
If the vehicle was worth less than $2000 at the time of the HP, if a vehicle has passed through a Reg Motor Vehicle Dealer, or if any particulars are incorrect on the Register eg Vin or Rego on the register is incorrect.

Bush Judge

[onearmedbandit]

I may have put this in the wrong way. What I meant was why should finance companies be using the car as security when they are financing the car itself i.e. the item isn't paid and free itself.

If they were to use some other personal property of the person which is paid off and free then the problem wouldn't exist right? You get what I am saying? I.e. the financee owns a boat worth 11k which is free then load the security against that as opposed to the car which he's getting a loan for.

Using your example, this is what could possibly happen. Joe Bloggs has got a boat that he thinks is worth 11k. Does the finance company just take his word for it? No, they (or the dealer) would have to visit where he keeps the boat and value it, no doubt at less than what Joe thinks it's worth. However the car is an agreed $11k (by the dealer, the buyer, and the finance company) so why not use that, because hey if the guy is going to sell his car to some unsuspecting buyer then what's to stop him selling the boat in the same circumstance.

At the end of the day, most buyers are cautious and will check if money is owing, it's what you should always do. You can't blame the system if people don't use it.

[Coldrider]

What is on HP is what is usually used as security, the risk is reflected in the higher interest rate, (the risk component, higher risk-higher rate).

Also cautionary note on the security register to all.
If you make a check, always check again on the day you actually intend to complete the purchase.

[kwaka_crasher]

Tell this clown to text the registration plate to FIND (3463) for $1 to get a code to use on the PPSR to see who has registered the security. He can then contact them an get them to remove their security interest if nothing is owing. Finance companies are very slack about doing this.

[onearmedbandit]

He can then contact them an get them to remove their security interest if nothing is owing. Finance companies are very slack about doing this.

Very true. The number of times I went to trade a car and found there was a hook on it, only to find out it had been paid off in full 2 yrs ago.

Ha, reminds me of the time I had the misfortune to trade a 1990's Mazda Capella pressure wave supercharger diesel. The odomoter read what I took to be 96400km, I checked the diesel tax cert first and saw that it was paid through to 97000km. No problems I thought. Come Monday I get one of the yardies to get the car ready so I can flick it on to another dealer, he comes back in laughing about how well it goes for nearly 1,000,000km! Fuck, the odo reads 964,000! km! This can't be right, so I got the cars history. Everything is fine up to about 80,000 when the next reading goes to 860,000km! It was just a clerical error but I'll never forget arguing with the then LTSA about how a vehicle could go from 80,000 to 860,000 in 6mths. The road tax bill they wanted was in the thousands. I traded the car for about $500. All got sorted in the end