Loss of engine power when using lights [Archive]

Grasshopperus

20th February 2010, 19:10

Hi all, wondering if anyone can help me with a little problem I've got.

had a weird problem coming back from work yesterday. When I hit ~12K RPM the engine ran out of power, I had been riding for about 20 minutes and this had never happened before. At 12k it would stop accellerating quickly and bog down as if the fuel mix was way too rich.

I pulled over and did the ol' turn-off-turn-on trick (yeah I'm in IT) but the battery was too flat to start the bike again. I got a jump start from a friendly local and was on my way again. I kept the lights off as I knew it was an electrical charge problem of some sort.

So, charged the battery up this morning and went for a ride, it is absolutely fine with the headllights off, pulls hard up to the redline of 19K. With the lights on, 12K is the wall. I can always reproduce the problem and turning the lights off fixes it straightaway.

I've done some reading on these forums and have some multimeter readings

battery resting voltage = 13.0v
with ignition on = 12.9v

engine idling, lights off = 13.1v
engine idling, lights on = 12.5v

engine (6k & 10k & 19k rpm) , lights off = 13.3v
engine (6k & 10k) , lights on = 12.8v
engine lights on hitting 'the wall' @ 12k < 10v

The tacho is also a bit crazy now too, it seems to stick at 16k when in neutral and I'm revving it (lights off or on) and then go up and down real fast bearing no relation to true engine revs

The battery is 3 months old.

Nothing has 'happened' to make this occur. Hasn't been dropped and hasn't been worked on recently.

The bike's manual says 14-16v is the normal charging range.

I'm in my garage right now using the laptop and tinkering, I'm going to test the regulator/rectifier using dangerousbastard's standard response in this subforum (stator wire to frame resistance and voltage) and will also go and check all electrical connections (especially earths).

If anyone can shout out with a recommendation then I'll act on it immediately.

Cheers
Grass

quickbuck

20th February 2010, 19:27

I'm going to test the regulator/rectifier using dangerousbastard's standard response in this subforum (stator wire to frame resistance and voltage) and will also go and check all electrical connections (especially earths).

Good diagnosis that man.
It will most likely be Reg/Rect Failed.

What you can ensure in the mean time is that all your plugs are free from corrosion between the pins.....

the 12k rev thing sort of puzzles me for the moment though.... Might be where your engine is normally "Coming on Cam" and the poor ignition system (CDI's) just can't handle it with a reduced input voltage.... And CDI's won't work below 10v anyway....

Grasshopperus

20th February 2010, 19:58

sorry then pun in the title but I removed the plug from the side of the R/R and it's not pretty

Attached to the burnt plug there was a pretty burnt wire that detached as I was removing the plug.

I guess I'll just trim the wire and reattach it (hoping that whatever caused the burn was a one-off by a previous owner)

quickbuck

20th February 2010, 21:58

Yup,
hope it was a "One Off" and not a symptom of something else......

This goes along with my Smoke theory I mentioned in another thread....

Grasshopperus

21st February 2010, 12:02

took bike for a 45minute ride today (with the lights on) and it's sweet as! haha! I'm so frickin' lucky.

The 'fix' was to just clean up the female connector to the R/R and to reattach the wire to said connector.

Now the bike is overheating but that might not be related.

quickbuck

21st February 2010, 13:24

Now the bike is overheating but that might not be related.
Nope, that will be a different issue.....

Check to make sure there is some green stuff in the coolant. Oh, and it is at the correct level. ie, full inside the Radiator, and about 1/4 way up the catch bottle... That should be marked.

Ensure the line between the catch bottle and the Rad is not blocked, or split too.....

OH... and while you are there, make sure your water hasn't got oil in it... and check to make sure your oil isn't milky....

Grasshopperus

21st February 2010, 19:35

CookMySock

21st February 2010, 19:54

With any overheating, you should get the cooling system checked for combustion gases, just to rule out cylinder head gasket leakage, then go for leaks, radiator cap, thermostat, blocked radiator, in that order.

Steve

quickbuck

21st February 2010, 19:58

I've noticed that the coolant level in the reservoir tank has suddenly raised quite a bit. The bike overheated on my 40 minute ride today; was slightly higher than normal for the whole ride and got to about 80% of max (according to the temperature gauge) as I returned home.

After it cooled down, with the engine off, I opened the radiator cap and some green coolant started coming out as soon as I started unscrewing it. When I got the cap off I looked into the radiator and couldn't see any coolant from half-way up the radiator. As soon as the cap was removed the tube from the coolant reservoir started pushing water into the radiator until it filled up.

It seems as though the reservoir wanted to give it more water but the radiator cap was blocking it.

I assume this means the radiator cap is stuffed or something. I CRC'd it up and will keep an eye on it.

Sound right?

Right....
We had EXACTLY the same symptoms with the ZXR450 Race bike.....
We hoped it was the cap too, but no such luck.
So out with the thermostate in case it was that..... Then start engine with cap off, and it was blowing bubbles like a Jet Ski! (Seen the learning to swim ads on TV?)

Sorry to say, it sounds like a Blown Head Gasket.
Hence I asked the colour of the oil....

Grasshopperus

21st February 2010, 20:06

Ah right, I guess that means I should drain both the engine oil and the coolant and look for impurities in both?

I'll probably ride it for a little bit and just hope that it was a 'one-off' (a bit of a pattern developing here I know)

BTW, thanks for all of your helpful replies.

Cheers

quickbuck

21st February 2010, 20:30

Umm,
Personally I wouldn't ride it.
The fact it blew all the coolant into the catch bottle is a pretty sure sign.

If you want to test further, drain all the coolant, and replace.
Check the old stuff for rainbows, sure. Then start your bike and leave idling for a while.
They heat up pretty quick at idle, and at least you don't get stranded!

Now, keep an eye on your catch tank after the temp gauge rises.... This is when your thermostat opens.
If it fills again, then shut it down and I guess take it to the bike shop..... OR, find a friend who has done one before.

I understand you are pretty cleaver at IT. I can see that by your diagnosis of the previous fault.
The trouble with this one is it never gets any better by rebooting...
Believe me, we tried that on a Race Day, and lost a bucket load of points..... (Yes, still a bit sore about it).

OH, and IF there is any water in your oil, DO NOT run it! You will put water on surfaces and in bearings that will never thank you.

Grasshopperus

21st February 2010, 20:50

Thanks mate. Just about to drain the coolant now. Will let you know how it looks and how it runs after a refil.

CookMySock

21st February 2010, 20:54

Ah right, I guess that means I should drain both the engine oil and the coolant and look for impurities in both?No, re-read what I typed above. Many mechanics have a test kit they use to detect combustion byproducts in coolant. Or else do the bubble check.

I'll probably ride it for a little bit and just hope that it was a 'one-off' (a bit of a pattern developing here I know) Suggest that you do not. If its a stuffed head gasket its an inexpensive fix. If you keep riding it you might fuck then head, then its toast.

Steve

Grasshopperus

21st February 2010, 21:18

Ah right, thanks DB.

While you were posting for the second time, I've steamed ahead and drained the coolant and there is absolutely no rainbow-slick thing or any smell of petrol or oil in it. It's very clean.

I'm going to test using quickbuck's method (run at idle and see if it all gets blown back into reservoir tank) and see what happens then.

I do see what you're saying and yeah, better safe than sorry eh. But I'm headstrong and also need the bike to get to work tomorry :(

Grasshopperus

21st February 2010, 22:04

Refilled coolant. Idled bike for 20 minutes in the garage. A little white smoke at the beginning (may be due to using choke) then no smoke for the next 15 mins. Temperature gauge did not exceed normal temp (30% by gauge) by much at all. Reservoir tank had bubbles coming into it consistently until 5 seconds after engine turn off.

Reservoir tank did not get pumped up at all. A couple of minutes after engine turn-off res tank dropped by ~50mL

quickbuck

21st February 2010, 22:06

But I'm headstrong and also need the bike to get to work tomorry :(

Funny that, our rider/ Owner of the ZXR Race bike is very head strong too.... Thankfully he realised there was no point risking the engine when he saw the temp gauge climb...
To be honest, the fault in the 450 was one of those things that was probably going to happen anyway.... You can't re-use head gaskets.

It is a bugger you need the bike to get to work...

Oh, and just because you don't have oil in the coolant doesn't mean the head gasket is not blown.....

Grasshopperus

21st February 2010, 22:23

Funny that, our rider/ Owner of the ZXR Race bike is very head strong too.... Thankfully he realised there was no point risking the engine when he saw the temp gauge climb...

Maybe there's something about ZXR riders that draw the headstrong to it

Oh, and just because you don't have oil in the coolant doesn't mean the head gasket is not blown.....

BUGGAR! I thought I was off the hook there.

quickbuck

21st February 2010, 22:28

Maybe there's something about ZXR riders that draw the headstrong to it You could be right... Kawasaki tended to be the underdog....

BUGGAR! I thought I was off the hook there.

Yup, I thought you might have thought that....
So, any further diagnosis? Or have you called it quits for the night?

Grasshopperus

21st February 2010, 22:35

Well, the radiator cap was in pretty shit condition, the rubber 'pressure seal' is pretty ragged on one side, lots of bits of rubber (that I thought was dirt) had been flaking off.

Just FYI I made another post at 11:04 about 2 minutes before your post, perhaps you didn't see it because you were replying to the thread when I posted? There's some more diagnosis there.

I'm done for the night. I've got a 6 week old boy who I know is going to wake me up a couple of times before 6am :) Will stay online for another 20 mins or so though. Just reading as much as I can about cooling systems and the like.

quickbuck

21st February 2010, 22:45

Yup.. Missed the post, as I was too busy typing, and surfing.... Sorry.

Anyhow, after reading that, and now hearing your cap isn't in very good knick, I actually think you are VERY lucky!
See the cap has to hole about 8 psi? From memory, and this raises the boiling point of the fluid.
If it can't hold the pressure, the fluid boils at a lower temp, guess where the fluid goes!

So, I think you can try for a new cap..... Well, you need one anyway.

Grasshopperus

21st February 2010, 22:54

quickbuck

21st February 2010, 23:01

Yeah, I'm hoping mate, I'm hoping!

I assume that rad caps are all of a generic size and that all I have to do is find one that matches the PSI relief rating (93-123KPa, 0.95 - 1.25kg/cm2, 14 -18psi) and then I'll see how it goes.

I'm definately going to keep an eye on the temp gauge and will pull over if it goes high again.

Will keep you posted mate, thanks for helping me through this :)

14-18 psi... Yeah, must have been thinking of the ute.... Or .8 Bar... the 400 might be??
Yup, as long as you get one int he range, and it fits the Rad neck, it is all good.

No worries for the help. I hate to see somebody with a broken bike, when I know I can help them fix it...

Yes, if your gauge goes high, definitely pull over to let it cool off.

Grasshopperus

22nd February 2010, 17:21

Went into Drury Performance Centre today and got a new radiator cap. The guys had a quick look at the bike and said that it probably was just the cap. I've attached a good photo of the radiator cap for you to take a look at.

Today's 35Km ride each way to work was fine, the temp gauge was only just above the minimum on the motorway, and went to around halfway when I got into heavy traffic and had to stop at sets of lights. At this point the fan turned on, ran for a little bit and then turned off as the temp decreased.

Fingers crossed it's just been the cap all along.

Seriously though, this bike has been sent to teach me about mechanicing. Once every two weeks (or more often) since I've had it I've had some sort of problem. In chronological order:

1. chain and sprockets
2. brakes pads
3. stuck + stripped screws all over bike and especially in airbox and carb bowls
4. carburettor clean
5. rejet main carb jets to original specs (was running too rich and hesitating under heavy throttle)
6. brake piston seizure
7. Fork seal blowout
8. running poorly when raining (needed silicone sprayed over stuff)
9. suspension changes; more suited for my heavy arse.
10. regulator/rectifier rectified
11. radiator cap

There's probably more that I'm forgetting. Each problem has had me spending hours learning and trying stuff out. Bloody good instructional stuff though.

Luckily I've managed to do most of that work myself so it hasn't cost too much.

DAMN I LOVE BIKING :)

FJRider

22nd February 2010, 17:36

Welcome to the world of motorcycling ....

quickbuck

22nd February 2010, 17:59

LOL FJRider....

You have done very well Grasshopper....
Any less of a person would have cut their losses and chucked the bike over a bank, or in the back of the shed at least.... never to let it see the light again.

You, my friend are what true motorcyclists are made of...

NOW, I hope the ZXR has had enough of a birthday party, and behaves for you for a very long time.

Stay safe, and enjoy.

FJRider

22nd February 2010, 18:30

Seriously though, this bike has been sent to teach me about mechanicing. Once every two weeks (or more often) since I've had it I've had some sort of problem. In chronological order:

1. chain and sprockets
2. brakes pads
3. stuck + stripped screws all over bike and especially in airbox and carb bowls
4. carburettor clean
5. rejet main carb jets to original specs (was running too rich and hesitating under heavy throttle)
6. brake piston seizure
7. Fork seal blowout
8. running poorly when raining (needed silicone sprayed over stuff)
9. suspension changes; more suited for my heavy arse.
10. regulator/rectifier rectified
11. radiator cap

There's probably more that I'm forgetting. Each problem has had me spending hours learning and trying stuff out. Bloody good instructional stuff though.

Luckily I've managed to do most of that work myself so it hasn't cost too much.

DAMN I LOVE BIKING :)

Better hang onto it for a bit yet ... there's still a few bits on the parts list that HAVEN'T been replaced yet ... :innocent:

Grasshopperus

22nd February 2010, 19:57

LOL FJRider....
NOW, I hope the ZXR has had enough of a birthday party, and behaves for you for a very long time.

Me too mate. It's definitely had its fair share. Did I mention the bike got lost in transit for a week or so when I first bought it?

Better hang onto it for a bit yet ... there's still a few bits on the parts list that HAVEN'T been replaced yet ... :innocent:

Cheeky buggar! You should see the condition of the side mirrors though, they're absolutely immaculate.

Thanks heaps for all your support guys, I really needed it.

I don't think I'll be able to sell this bike when I get my full license, it's got too much of my blood, sweat and tears holding it together. I bet heaps of people wish they could've kept their first bike too eh?

Oh well, it'll be a good bike for someone who's similarly interested in learning basic mechanic skills.

FJRider

22nd February 2010, 20:10

I bet heaps of people wish they could've kept their first bike too eh?

usually .... not untill about thirty years after we've sold it ...

quickbuck

22nd February 2010, 21:04

usually .... not untill about thirty years after we've sold it ...

You got that right....
My first bike has even created a bit of a disease on here..... and YES, i am talking motorcycle... Come to think of it, the other one cures diseases...

One thing it is great to do, is jump back onto a 250 after years of experience on a bigger bike, and then see how much fun they are...
You then realise, they aren't as slow as people make out....

motorbyclist

23rd February 2010, 10:02

Refilled coolant. Idled bike for 20 minutes in the garage. A little white smoke at the beginning (may be due to using choke) then no smoke for the next 15 mins.

seeing as you're learning these things:

that white smoke is just steam (another byproduct of combustion) which you'll only notice on cold days or while the pipe is cold enough to let the water vapour condense. perfectly normal.

Black smoke is soot/carbon from a rich mixture - commonly seen on poorly tuned boyracer cars

Blue smoke, one the other hand, is oil. If blue comes from a four stroke you have a potentially expensive problem

eventually you'll learn to identify these and hot coolant by smell ;)
shit I can even tell the difference between 2 stroke oils by exhaust smell now :laugh:

I've attached a good photo of the radiator cap for you to take a look at.

that's the new one, right?

I reckon (fair bit of experience here with learner bikes that need work) that its in your very best interests to check your oil for any signs of water, and DO go get a compression test to see if any one cylinder is noticeably down on the others. I'm not a fan of the guys at drury (who sold you the bike and how much for?) but as has been said earlier, head gaskets are cheap to replace, heads/cylinder blocks are not, nor are all the bearing surfaces.

Grasshopperus

23rd February 2010, 20:15

that's the new one, right?

The attached pic is the old one, it's got some sort of flakey rubber mark around the side closest to the camera. Looked pretty shagged.

I reckon (fair bit of experience here with learner bikes that need work) that its in your very best interests to check your oil for any signs of water, and DO go get a compression test to see if any one cylinder is noticeably down on the others. I'm not a fan of the guys at drury (who sold you the bike and how much for?) but as has been said earlier, head gaskets are cheap to replace, heads/cylinder blocks are not, nor are all the bearing surfaces.

Sure thing, I'm going to take everyone's advice and drain some of the oil tomorrow and take a good look at it.

Cheers for the help all.