"Motorcycles push the limits of speed, safety"

[bungbung]

Motorcycles push the limits of speed, safety
Government reports fatalities up 71 percent in just six years
By Kevin Tibbles
Correspondent
NBC News
Updated: 7:15 p.m. ET May 10, 2005

CHICAGO - For thrill seekers, motorcycles have always been an adrenaline rush. But today's fastest-growing craze — ultra-powerful, super-fast sport bikes — have made motorcycling more thrilling and more dangerous.

"It's like riding a roller coaster," says one rider.

"The speeds are unbelievable," says a law enforcement officer.

They push 200 miles per hour.

Dean Campa turned Los Angeles streets into a speedway on his sport bike. He was caught and jailed for two years.

"It's an addiction, that you got to learn to turn on and turn off," says Campa.

Others aren't so lucky. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says fatalities have accelerated 71 percent from 2,294 in 1998 to 3,927 in 2004.

But it's not just the young and fearless who are dying. More and more older riders are buying these heavy, powerful cruising machines and hitting the highway — even though many are inexperienced riders. In just 10 years the age of the average motorcyclist has risen from 27 to 41. And of the increasing number of fatalities, 60 percent are over the age of 40.

Margit Showalter's son, Michael, was 41 when he was killed on his bike.

"Just because he can have a Harley and doesn't get the proper safety instructions, he needs to realize that he's endangering himself and his family," says Showalter.

Chicago's "Number One Stunna's" club is more than 200 strong and has not lost a single member. The club says safety comes first.

"It's real easy to get caught up in the speed thing and trying to get a name for yourself out here in the street and wanting to test your limits," says president Reese Golladay. "But you can easily end up in what they call a 'panic mode.'"

But for many on two wheels, that cocktail of speed, power and youth still proves too attractive — despite the risk.

[Sutage]

Thats bceause they can buy any cc motorbike straight away, they need to add the 250 restrictor like we have

[Waylander]

Why do I get the feeling that most of the 60% over 40 actually died of something that has nothing to do with motorbikes. Yes bikes are dangerous all of us know that and execpt it. Yes a degree of training in motorbike safty is a nesecity (sp) but it requires the rider to make sure he/she does this. I also wonder how many of those fatalities are the cause of the rider or some dumb arse cager fucking shit up.

[zeRax]

But for many on two wheels, that cocktail of speed, power and youth still proves too attractive — despite the risk.

hell yea its attractive :Punk: :ride:

[Waylander]

Thats bceause they can buy any cc motorbike straight away, they need to add the 250 restrictor like we have
That wont change anything. What needs to be done is a required safty course for bikers AND cagers. Just better driver/rider education. I didn't have to deal with the 250 restrictor thing and I turned out fine. That's becouse my dad taught me how to ride and taught me not to be a jackass on a bike.

[Biff]

Thats bceause they can buy any cc motorbike straight away, they need to add the 250 restrictor like we have

Yup - I'm sure it's a contributing factor. In the UK the restriction is 125cc. Although I think you can fast track to a bigger bike if you're over 21.

The fact that older guys are getting into biking for a first time is a worry though. Primarily because they have years of experience under their belt driving, more disposable income than ever, are in need of a mid-life adrenaline boost and may not have had a crash in a car in years, or ever. So they're full of confidence, and over-confident, and without the skill and experience of biking to back up that confidence.

I lost two guys that worked for me over a three year period back in the UK, both through biking accidents. Both were in their 40's with families, one rode a Blade as a first bike, the other a Gixxer 750. Both had very little experience, yet thought they were the dogs danglies when they walked into work in their race replica leathers. I used to cringe watching them ride into the car park in the mornings attempting to park their bikes, as their skills were obviously lacking. I even offered to pay for them to join me on an advanced riding course. Naturally, the fact that I was about ten years younger than then they thought they were above it. Bloody shame.

RIP guys.

[madboy]

I'm with waylander here... 250 restriction means jack. I ignored it completely. Not making light of the recent tragic events with Flyin (RIP), but i understand he was on a 250. Problems cannot be solved by cc ratings and govt regulations.

[Deano]

A modern 250 2 stroke can easily do over 200kph - in fact so can the 4 strokes nowadays, so the 250 restriction means little.

[Mr Skid]

That wont change anything. What needs to be done is a required safty course for bikers AND cagers. Just better driver/rider education. I didn't have to deal with the 250 restrictor thing and I turned out fine. That's becouse my dad taught me how to ride and taught me not to be a jackass on a bike.
Well said.

It's just as easy to crash a 250cc sports bike as a 1000cc sports bike. Displacement restrictions are a very blunt tool used to deal with a complex issue.

A better option would be a learner approved list of bikes such as in NSW http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/tests/motorcycleridertrainingscheme/motorcyclesnoviceriders.html

But *even* better would be rider training and safety courses as part of the licencing process.

For m/c learners it's more important than for learner drivers. Unless you come from a m/c family you won't have the experienced riders to learn from, and the cost of mistakes is much higher than in a car.

[FEINT]

maybe cage drivers are getting worse?

[Waylander]

Well said.

It's just as easy to crash a 250cc sports bike as a 1000cc sports bike. Displacement restrictions are a very blunt tool used to deal with a complex issue.

A better option would be a learner approved list of bikes such as in NSW http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/tests/motorcycleridertrainingscheme/motorcyclesnoviceriders.html

But *even* better would be rider training and safety courses as part of the licencing process.

For m/c learners it's more important than for learner drivers. Unless you come from a m/c family you won't have the experienced riders to learn from, and the cost of mistakes is much higher than in a car.

Agree with you there other than the higher price than a car. If you wreck a bike yea the price is higher for yourself, but if you wreck a car you could be doing more damage to others than yourself. Driver training is just as of not more important than rider training as far as safty for others are concerned. Restricting learners to certain bikes isn't really nessecary. You could have a person who's never touched a bike before hop on one and ride better than most racers and you could have someone hop on a 125 or 50cc scooter and wreck the damn thing within five feet. Just better training is needed.

[Motoracer]

Rider training has to be improved for sure but obviously it is a lot easier to stack a near 200hp bike with a bigger mass than a smaller bike with around 1/4th the hp. I reckon the cc restriction definetly has it's value as well.

[Sutage]

That wont change anything. What needs to be done is a required safty course for bikers AND cagers. Just better driver/rider education. I didn't have to deal with the 250 restrictor thing and I turned out fine. That's becouse my dad taught me how to ride and taught me not to be a jackass on a bike.

Thousands and thousands of dead people obviously disagree with you. Having a 1000 cc sports bike for a first bike? Best way to meet an early grave. 250cc bike at least have some limits, plus the acceleration is a lot slower. Having the 250cc limit definately helps, means you can learn to ride without having to learn how to control 1000cc's powering what? 160kgs? The power to weight ratio of that is insane for a first time rider.

Sure your dad taught YOU, but not everyones dads ride, or teach them.

[Waylander]

I might be wrong but everything I'm saying here is just my point of view. I'm not basing it on anything other than my own experiances so I'm allowed to be wrong. If someone wants to go and get imself and R1 or a Ducati 998 or whatever he should be allowed to IF he can prove that he is mature/smart enough to handle it withough being a dick and doin wheelies and stoppies at every chance. Kids and teenagers will allways mimick what they see isn't this the same reason we have boy racers? They see drivers on tv racing or doing burnouts and what not then they want to go out and do them. Same thing with riders. They see guys on the race tracks taking corners at whatever speed and guys doing stunting and such and think I can do that then go out and by a big thou bike becouse that's what they ride on tv and start doin that crap. If for instance everyone that bought a first bike regardless of age had to go to a rider training in order to actually get the keys we would see less and less of these idiots.

[outlawtorn]

Thousands and thousands of dead people obviously disagree with you. Having a 1000 cc sports bike for a first bike? Best way to meet an early grave. 250cc bike at least have some limits, plus the acceleration is a lot slower. Having the 250cc limit definately helps, means you can learn to ride without having to learn how to control 1000cc's powering what? 160kgs? The power to weight ratio of that is insane for a first time rider.

Sure your dad taught YOU, but not everyones dads ride, or teach them.

wot he said :niceone:

[Sutage]

I might be wrong but everything I'm saying here is just my point of view. I'm not basing it on anything other than my own experiances so I'm allowed to be wrong. If someone wants to go and get imself and R1 or a Ducati 998 or whatever he should be allowed to IF he can prove that he is mature/smart enough to handle it withough being a dick and doin wheelies and stoppies at every chance. Kids and teenagers will allways mimick what they see isn't this the same reason we have boy racers? They see drivers on tv racing or doing burnouts and what not then they want to go out and do them. Same thing with riders. They see guys on the race tracks taking corners at whatever speed and guys doing stunting and such and think I can do that then go out and by a big thou bike becouse that's what they ride on tv and start doin that crap. If for instance everyone that bought a first bike regardless of age had to go to a rider training in order to actually get the keys we would see less and less of these idiots.

True enough, but fact is, my SR250 cant turn corners at 200kph. My SR250 cant even go 200kph. A GSXR1000 or whatever can. So i CANT mimick what they do on TV because i can only ride a 250. Fact is when you sit a restricted or fulll or whatever test, you do everything by the book, its a lot different (for most ppl) when you are out riding by yourself, when your mates are there, when chicks (boys for you girls) are around. And especially when alcohol is around. A 250 is much more limitied than a 1000 especially when you put in real world factors, not driving around a carpark going through cones.

[XP@]

The list is a good idea,
same should apply to cars too!

a few years ago I used to work for an insurance broker. a client had just got his L licence and wanted a quote for a car insurance.
when I told him 2500 pounds he asked why... i told him it's cos im quoting you on an escort rs1800 turbo... try a 1.1 fiesta.
anyway he called later that day (friday) on a cell phone to confirm cover, I couldent hear him tried to tell him that but he aparently did not hear me.
The monday after i got the news he was in hospital, in a coma. he had not made it back home from the car dealer.

[Waylander]

True enough, but fact is, my SR250 cant turn corners at 200kph. My SR250 cant even go 200kph. A GSXR1000 or whatever can. So i CANT mimick what they do on TV because i can only ride a 250. Fact is when you sit a restricted or fulll or whatever test, you do everything by the book, its a lot different (for most ppl) when you are out riding by yourself, when your mates are there, when chicks (boys for you girls) are around. And especially when alcohol is around. A 250 is much more limitied than a 1000 especially when you put in real world factors, not driving around a carpark going through cones.

Ok I'll agree with that. Maybe some combination of the two is needed? Maybe have the graduated system but have things to shorten the time between classes ie: certain period with no accidents/speeding tickits and such aswell as safty courses and more mandatory safty courses. In the states they have some of these that are free to riders becouse they are government funded. Only problem is that they are from local government such as state governer or in some states not even that just the city council. And anybody who mixes alchohol and bikes/cars deserves to crash. Only problem is they usually end up hurting others rather than themselfs.

[Fart]

All new riders sitting for a learners and restricted should go through an authroised riding school. This should ensure that all riders with a full licence have been through a standard that is acceptable to all. Cagers should also sit a separate exams that is specific to the safety of bikers.

[Sutage]

yeh you should be able to shorten the time between getting them by doing courses, and i think to make more ppl do them they should be cheaper.. maybe the govt pay half? yeah right.. but hey maybe

and yeh anyone who rides/drive under the influence is danger to himself and everyone around them, and need to be taken off the road, driving is dangerous enough without adding that:P

[Waylander]

All new riders sitting for a learners and restricted should go through an authroised riding school. This should ensure that all riders with a full licence have been through a standard that is acceptable to all. Cagers should also sit a separate exams that is specific to the safety of bikers.

The first part may actually happen if government agencies ever get smart (hitchers group being the exception:niceone: ) but the second part will never happen unless thier teacher is a biker and tells the students to watch out. Hey that's an idea. Anybody know what is required to become a driver education teacher?

[Fart]

You need alot of patience and have a good personality to be a driver trainer. If you cannot hold your temper teaching your girlfriend or partner to drive then being a driver trainer is not for you.

I, for one can never be one.

[Waylander]

You need alot of patience and have a good personality to be a driver trainer. If you cannot hold your temper teaching your girlfriend or partner to drive then being a driver trainer is not for you.

I, for one can never be one.

I should be allright there. Well during the times that my bike works anyway. But seriously is there any kind of special experiance they need to have or are they just people that have had thier licence for X number of years?

[Waylander]

Here is an idea we can do. Set up days where the more experianced riders ( I say this becouse some young guys can teach the older folks a thing or two) get together with a bunch of newbs and teach them all the safty stuff. It would mainly be for people on this site to learn more but if we put up a few fliers at the shops and the riding course places people will see it and probably come along. Not a full fix and it would require people on here to give up some of thier free time but it would help keep alot of accidents from happening. It could be something kinda like how the track days help to teach how to ride on a track and such. Could do it a bit like Feint's noob ride the other week. Just a basic idea if anybody has any suggestions for it I'm listening.

[Sutage]

Id definately be keen, i wanna do a CBTA thing but 250 bucks? meh can buy a lot of stuff for that! like the Rocky DVD set, twice !

[Waylander]

Id definately be keen, i wanna do a CBTA thing but 250 bucks? meh can buy a lot of stuff for that! like the Rocky DVD set, twice !

This wouldn't cut down on the time you have to wait to upgrade your licence though. It's just something to help with rider education. Maybe if it gets big enough we can try to make it count but the odds of that happening....

[Sutage]

Shrug, it'd help me be alive longer so i can sit the tests ;)

Someone should fully find out what it takes to become a trainer guy tho, youd get heaps of business if u made it cheaper

[Biff]

Good idea Waylander. The problem faced by newbies (no disrespect guys n gals) is that they have little, if any, road sense. At least in terms of motorbike riding - such as road positioning, making yourself visible to other road user, corner positioning etc. In addition I doubt whether their hazard perception radars are tuned in yet. I know for a fact that it took several years for me to tune mine in to a decent enough level, and I'm still tuning.

I guess that those of us more experienced riders owe it to help out where we can.

The downside of this type of type of exercise is that there may be some of us more experienced riders that may posses bad riding habits. I've a good mate that is a dab hand at pulling wheelies and can really throw a bike around a set of twisties, far better than I can, and everyone thinks he's a brilliant rider. Granted he's a brilliant stunt rider (he's not a KBer before I piss anyone here off!), but he's a liability in traffic, an accident waiting to happen, and I cringe when we used to ride together.

I'm by no means perfect either and have a lot to learn, as does everybody here. If there's a single person here that doesn’t feel they have a thing to learn, then I say you're full of shit, your dangerous and your ego is even bigger than mine.

[Lou Girardin]

Maybe if the cretins wore helmets and didn't ride pissed so many wouldn't die.

[Waylander]

Good idea Waylander. The problem faced by newbies (no disrespect guys n gals) is that they have little, if any, road sense. At least in terms of motorbike riding - such as road positioning, making yourself visible to other road user, corner positioning etc. In addition I doubt whether their hazard perception radars are tuned in yet. I know for a fact that it took several years for me to tune mine in to a decent enough level, and I'm still tuning.

I guess that those of us more experienced riders owe it to help out where we can.

The downside of this type of type of exercise is that there may be some of us more experienced riders that may posses bad riding habits. I've a good mate that is a dab hand at pulling wheelies and can really throw a bike around a set of twisties, far better than I can, and everyone thinks he's a brilliant rider. Granted he's a brilliant stunt rider (he's not a KBer before I piss anyone here off!), but he's a liability in traffic, an accident waiting to happen, and I cringe when we used to ride together.

I'm by no means perfect either and have a lot to learn, as does everybody here. If there's a single person here that doesn’t feel they have a thing to learn, then I say you're full of shit, your dangerous and your ego is even bigger than mine.

Well maybe it can be a whole group thing where everyone gets to have pointers done on thier riding. As I said before even the young pups can teach you old dogs new thricks. I'm only half serious about this right now as I have my own stuff to fix but give me a month of doin research on it and pokin the brains of some of you old hands at orginizing and I'll get it started. For now we could use what was suggested in Pyrocam's video thread and have riders film thier rides or filming the rides of those that don't have cams and posting it so that people on here can give them advice and stuff.

[jazbug5]

Got sent this (http://www.ride4ever.co.nz/index.html) by the education guy where I work.
Definately worth a quick look for newbies, and not a bad effort, I think.

[Wolf]

The Aussie restriction list looks interesting. There are some nice "substantial" bikes in there (i.e. not pissy, light-as bikes running on razor-blades that are at the mercy of every zephyr of air or grain of grit on the road). I dare say some of those >260cc bikes would have been a safer "trainer bike" than my old RX125.

There's no "magic pill" or panacea for the risks. I think a combination of restricted vehicles and proper training - for both cars and bikes - is necessary.

Cars, too, should have a "basic handling certificate" as a condition for a learner's licence - before the bastards are allowed to drive on the road, I want to be sure they won't be bunny-hopping along any road I'm likely to be on while they sort out the "complexities" of clutch and gears.

Safety and "Road Skills" courses should be compulsory - including getting to know the quirks of other road users (such as "this is how bikes corner, they're not pulling over to let you pass, you stupid arsehole!" and "buses stop at railway crossings" and "truckies ignore anything that does not have at least 12 wheels.")

[Waylander]

"truckies ignore anything that does not have at least 12 wheels." Don't agree with that cause they have always been friendly to me when on the bike. Maybe I've just been lucky.:niceone:

[campbellluke]

Sadly, I am still on my restricted license. But having a 4 cylinder 250 that can almost go 100 in 2nd gear was always on my mind before I had my learners.

If I had chosen a twin cylinder SR250 or GN250 or a single cylinder GZ250. I would have died by now. From the inability to overtake.

[madboy]

It's a very very tricky question to find an answer to - how to stop people dying on bikes? I would be interested to see the stats on why the accidents that killed them occurred. Fact is, crashes will happen, people will die. No amount of ABS, airbags, education, laws or whatever will change that in the foreseeable future. But I think with the right skills and attitudes, people will be in the best position to minimise crashes occuring, and also the results of these crashes.

Education helps people. Licence restrictions help some. Experience helps pretty much all. Attitude really helps, but how do you legislate for that?

I dare to suggest - egos are possibly responsible for a fair proportion of biker-caused crashes. And cager inattention is possibly responsible for a fair proportion of cager-caused bike crashes.

You can educate or legislate as much as you like, but until you succeed in changing the attitudes...

[erik]

Motorcycles push the limits of speed, safety
Government reports fatalities up 71 percent in just six years
By Kevin Tibbles
Correspondent
NBC News
Updated: 7:15 p.m. ET May 10, 2005
....
Others aren't so lucky. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says fatalities have accelerated 71 percent from 2,294 in 1998 to 3,927 in 2004....

What that article completely fails to mention is the number of motorcycles on the road in 1998 and 2004.
Going by the dodgy graph I found here: http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-news/motorcycle-sales-growth.htm

there were about 500,000 new motorcycle sales in the USA in 1998, and about 1,000,000 in 2004.

Divide the deaths in 1998 by the number of new motorcycles and multiply it by 100 to get the percent:
2,294/500,000 *100 = 0.46%
So if it was only people with new motorcycles riding, then 0.46% of them would have died in 1998.
Do the same with the 2004 figures and it turns out at 0.39% so the number of deaths per new motorcycle sales has actually decreased between 1998 and 2004!

An article I found while looking for statistics to back my argument :whistle: gives a less biased/sensationalist picture of motorcycle mortality rates:
http://scienceweek.com/2005/sc050218-6.htm

One of the interesting points I thought I'd highlight was:


The analysis indicated that during 1983-2003 the overall prevalence of elevated blood alcohol concentrations (BACs) among motorcycle drivers who died in crashes declined; however, the peak rate of death among alcohol-impaired motorcycle drivers shifted from those aged 20-24 years to those aged 40-44 years.

Basically that means the same age group that was drinking and driving the most in 1983 is still doing it the most in 2004. You'd think in 20 years they might've learned something...

[Jeremy]

Are we really dropping like flies?

We all know that your likely to have an accident in your first 6 months. And we all know that a high proportion of motorcycle accidents result in the death of the rider.

However that doesn't say that motorcycles are more dangerous than cars. You could interpret that as: Since a high proportion of motorcycle accidents result in the death of the rider, therefore most accidents occur at high speed, therefore in most circumstances a motorcycle is less likely to have an accident at normal speeds.

Anyway:

Motorcycles riding a motorcycle is dangerous. No disput there.
Driving a car is just as dangerous.

Hit something at 200km/h and your dead. Same at 150km/h. You might survive if your lucky at 100km/h. Or you might wish that you didn't.

"Government reports fatalities up 71 percent in just six years", is this another way of saving that the number of people riding bikes has increased? I'd expect that if there was a 200% increase in the number of people driving cars there'd be a 200% increase in the number of fatalities.

How about a truely fair test. Take a motorcyclist who's spent a whole year riding, and compare them to someone who's been driving for a year.

I'd say that the average motorcyclist could cope with watching 4 lanes of traffic at once, at motorway speed. And could easily pick out those who are most likely to just turn into his lane unexpectedly (Clue: It's anyone who has dings anywhere on their car, or people who obviously couldn't afford the car they're in [less likely to do something stupid if they paid for their own car], or the courier vans [PACE are the worst]). The rider would know nearly exactly how long it took to brake in various conditions. Knows how to deal with locked wheels. Is always looking for an escape path. If push came to shove the motorcyclist could probably survive travelling at over 200km/h for a while without having an accident.

Can the same be said for the person driving the car? How often do they have to deal with people who think that "I didn't see them" is an excuse?

You have to discount people in the first 3 months, the idiots and those for whom a bike is a toy, as we'd say in stats they're just outliers and aren't a true representation of the general population.

[Sutage]

Theres lies.

Theres damn lies.

Then theres statistics.

[Waylander]

Theres lies.

Theres damn lies.

Then theres statistics.
Yep I think someone on here said it a while ago that statistics don't count cause someone can make them say whatever they want.

[jazbug5]

Ha. Me old dad always did say.. well, he still does. Anyway, he ended up as a college lecturer before he retired and used to always recommend this book. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393310728/qid=1115805247/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-9492859-9468952?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)
And people ask where I get my cynicism from...

[XP@]

Here is an idea we can do. Set up days where the more experianced riders ( I say this becouse some young guys can teach the older folks a thing or two) get together with a bunch of newbs and teach them all the safty stuff. It would mainly be for people on this site to learn more but if we put up a few fliers at the shops and the riding course places people will see it and probably come along. Not a full fix and it would require people on here to give up some of thier free time but it would help keep alot of accidents from happening. It could be something kinda like how the track days help to teach how to ride on a track and such. Could do it a bit like Feint's noob ride the other week. Just a basic idea if anybody has any suggestions for it I'm listening.

Honorable suggestion. However if you look at statistics from the HURT report, cba linking to it, we would be classed as "Friends". The stats from that report show a high percentage of riders who are trained by friends crash, higher than riders who learn from books. So would we really helping them?

What might work would be organising some training sessions with good instructors. I had the pleasure of following a couple of bikes down Grays road (twisty low traffic) the other night. Their riding was sooo smooth, not fast but bloody quick. It got me thinking I would like their instructor, but how? There is no-way they would let me in to their club, and I wouldn't want to ride a white bike anyway... I now have the police instructors email address, just trying to work out how to get him to give some KB'rs a few tips... suggestions?

Another positive step would be to add a forum here called "Safety" and con an experienced instructor in to moderating it.

Failing all three it is only about $1000 to add an 'I' to my licence...

[Waylander]

Honorable suggestion. However if you look at statistics from the HURT report, cba linking to it, we would be classed as "Friends". The stats from that report show a high percentage of riders who are trained by friends crash, higher than riders who learn from books. So would we really helping them?

What might work would be organising some training sessions with good instructors. I had the pleasure of following a couple of bikes down Grays road (twisty low traffic) the other night. Their riding was sooo smooth, not fast but bloody quick. It got me thinking I would like their instructor, but how? There is no-way they would let me in to their club, and I wouldn't want to ride a white bike anyway... I now have the police instructors email address, just trying to work out how to get him to give some KB'rs a few tips... suggestions?

Another positive step would be to add a forum here called "Safety" and con an experienced instructor in to moderating it.

Failing all three it is only about $1000 to add an 'I' to my licence...
That's why I'm gonna be looking into what is required to become a certified instructor. And the majority who have been taught by friends are probably the same as the ones whos friends tell them they can go twice as fast up a ramp. If you get friends that actually know what they are talking about it can be quite helpfull. Kinda like how at a track day you have all those people to help crytique (sp?) your riding and lines and all that. I'm still not even sure if it'll go anywhere but I would rather try something to help make riders a bit more safty concious than just sit and complain about how the ACC levies and stuff are unfair becouse they are basing thier statistics on the uneducated. Know what I mean?

[Ixion]

..
What might work would be organising some training sessions with good instructors. I had the pleasure of following a couple of bikes down Grays road (twisty low traffic) the other night. Their riding was sooo smooth, not fast but bloody quick. It got me thinking I would like their instructor, but how? There is no-way they would let me in to their club, and I wouldn't want to ride a white bike anyway... I now have the police instructors email address, just trying to work out how to get him to give some KB'rs a few tips... suggestions?
..

When I was learning to ride I used to follow the local MOT bike cops around, Just tailing along behind them (if they shot off at speed I had to give up though, cos my BSA Bantam couldn't keep up with their Tbirds. Not even when I hotted it up :whistle: ). Just watching how they rode figuring out why they did things trying to followtheir lines etc.

Those guys were farking good. Only got questioned once, following a snake (new one) , he suddenly zipped ahead, stopped and signalled me to pull over. "Alright what's your game, you've been following me for the last hour" Started to sound a bit nasty, I explained quite truthfully why, he sort of looked like he didn't quite know whether to believe me or not and settled for a "Well stop following me or you'll be in trouble" OK have a cow then dude. Just followed the regular snakes after that.

I learnt a hell of a lot from those guys.

[Odin]

Basically that means the same age group that was drinking and driving the most in 1983 is still doing it the most in 2004. You'd think in 20 years they might've learned something...

...learned something or died trying

[geoffm]

maybe cage drivers are getting worse?

I think they are. I used to ride a bike everywhere, until I got my first car in 1992. I had a company car (and a pile of tools to carry) for 7 years in my previous job, so there was no commuting on a bike any more.
This last christmas, it was back on the bike for a holiday job in the middle of the city.
Lets put it this way - the Westgate AA must have been doing a roaring trade in drivers licenses to the visitors of the inner city. I have never been carved up/ abused/ nearly taken out as much in my life as over those 3 months. it is noticably better back here in Christchurch.
Geoff

[XP@]

That's why I'm gonna be looking into what is required to become a certified instructor. And the majority who have been taught by friends are probably the same as the ones whos friends tell them they can go twice as fast up a ramp. If you get friends that actually know what they are talking about it can be quite helpfull. Kinda like how at a track day you have all those people to help crytique (sp?) your riding and lines and all that. I'm still not even sure if it'll go anywhere but I would rather try something to help make riders a bit more safty concious than just sit and complain about how the ACC levies and stuff are unfair becouse they are basing thier statistics on the uneducated. Know what I mean?

Yup, I agree...
You will be interested in this site. it is the only place you can get the course and assesment material for the I endorsement.
http://www.exams.co.nz/I_Endorsement.htm
http://www.drivinginstructor.co.nz/main_frame.php?goto_page=index_desc.htm&page_title=home&sub_menu=common/sub_home.htm

As for the ACC levies, I spent a few mins flicking through the ride4ever site mentioned earlier in the thread. Hosted by ACC and some sound advice in there, although nothing I havn't read before :(

maybee ride4eva could be convinced to proactivly help by subsidising refresher classes...