A new road race class and what to do with F3 rant

[That Guy]

am a long time motocross rider recently converted to road racing which I have really enjoyed, but have had some frustrations with as well.

Motocross in New Zealand is far better patronised than road racing; and some of the problems I think lie in the fact that if you want to start road racing - there is no clear machine nor class to ride in. If you start in motocross (as a senior lets say) you either get a 125/250 4str or a 250/450 4 str. That's it. $10,000 gets you an immediately competitive machine; and further more there are grades so you don't go straight in against Shayne King etc.

In road racing what do you buy? 600 Sports Production is a big step for a beginner - seriously fast machines but also you are put straight in with Craig Shirrifs etc. Obviously not Superbikes. 125s are a great class but we don't all weigh 60kgs and are under 5' 8'' either. 250 GP bikes? If you can find one and are prepared to fiddle with jets at every track?

So (clubmen's excepted) Formula 3 it is then. What to get? 10 year old thrashed 400 or 250 2 stroke? Ducati 750 2 valve? SV650? KTM motard bike? 125 GP bike? Whichever you choose you can guarantee someone has a seriously expensive SV650 or ZXR440 which will smoke your mildly tuned RGV250 or VFR400. Bikes like Fitzgerald's SV650 are nice - but $30k is required to get the same spec as the rules for F3 are so unrestrictive.

I turn up and race with my chosen machine (RGV250) and have a blast. However getting smoked on the straights by hot SVs and ZXR440s, in the corners by 125s and getting banzai-ed by upright motards makes the anticipated goal of pitting your skills against another rider a bit shrouded in mystery. How good am I really? In motocross I'd be up against 25 bikes all of the same type and it was clear. In F3 you have no idea because the machines vary in performance so wildly.

I don't think the argument that we must have a $3000 bike available to race holds any merit. Thos $3000 machine cost heaps to keep going anyway. Many hundreds of MX riders happily spend $10,000-$15,000 on their chosen machine. If the bikes are around this cost (probably no more than $15k) I don't think that will turn people off. In fact I think the current situation is actually worse as more like $30,000 is required to win F3 at national level.

Tim Gibb's idea of the SV650 rent-a-racer was a great idea but letting them into F3 killed it really.

Having had a reasonably successful season in F3 I want to upgrade but what to get? It is probably cheaper to get a production 600 than try and take on Terry's SV650 or Jason Easton's Tigcraft. But once again I'm not anywhere near fast enough to mix it up with Shirrifs (or Jason or Terry either) etc.

If we have a strictly controlled SV650 class (or similar) I'd be in. If it was popular enough you could grade it too. Obviously you need numbers to turn up to grade classes but this is I think why motocross is so successful and road racing less so. Most riders want to turn up and have a fun day racing others; not looking over their back after 4 laps hoping to not be in the way. In motocross you race in the grade your abilities are ready for. Not in road racing and this is why it lacks appeal.

A chicken & egg problem granted - but if 1 type of bike was chosen and we stuck with it; eventually I think we'd get there. With the 7 or so different types of bikes allowed in F3 at the moment we'll never get there. I think performance wise the SV650 is ideal but it would be better to be able to include more manufactures for many reasons. My idea would be this:

Have a graded 600 class:

600 Sports Production would stand as is. Then also have a 600 Street Stock class, perhaps like the R6 cup in the UK: www.r6cup.com/about/technical.php

All you can do is an end muffler and sprockets. Nothing else apart from a race fairing and foot pegs etc - but no engine modification at all (possibly seal engines somehow?) and street tyres. No braided lines, no lighter wheels. No wets. No different fork springs or shock springs or valving. No power commanders or air filter. STOCK. Perhaps you could have a Stock Warrant of Fitness type system. Have a detailed scruitineering (perhaps bike shops could do this) and you get a sticker that lasts for 6 months or whatever certifying the bike is standard. It also means the 600 you buy is not a dead investment because with a bit more you can step up to 600 Sports Production once you are fast enough.

To prevent Shirrifs etc entering both classes and scaring off the riders wanting to enter in a lesser grade; any rider who has finished in the top 10 at the nationals 600 Sports Production or Superbikes; would not be allowed to enter, or perhaps it could be done by lap times? Each circuit could have a lap time grade that if consistently met mean you get promoted. Whatever the system the goal would be that riders could buy a competitive bike that everyone else had; go racing for a reasonable cost and not go straight in against the best riders in the country. By also exlcuding say the top 10 it would let up and comers come through easily by being noticed as the SuperStock champion not just the fast 18 year old who got 11th in 600s.

The machine chosen needs to be in production today as well, of course. I think 600s are the natural choice.

At a smaller club meet the classes could be run together if there weren't enough riders available, but scored separately, and street stock would start behind Super Sport. Make it clear with different number plate back ground and colours so the crowd know what is going on.

Ideally this class would take over from F3 so if planned properly; you could announce that in two or three years time 600 Street Stock will merge with F3. Older F3 bikes can go into a pre '89 type class. (Pre '95?)

Good idea?

[Blakamin]

best make it ducati 600's then!!! :niceone:

[That Guy]

748 or 749 would be in - but not the S or R models....

[Waylander]

There should be a class just for cruisers aswell. Takes a bit more skill to ride a bike fast that wasn't designed for it. Would also help isolate those with skill from those that juat have better bikes. My opinion anyway from never being on a track in my life.:whistle:

[k14]

Yeah you are definately right about the fact that there is no clear class for people to start out in. You're idea of the superstock class sounds really good, but I still think there needs to be a feeder class to that.

The main factor with the superstock idea is the cost of them is still too expensive. The second hand ones still go for around the $8k to $10k bracket and you're screwed if they have had some modifications to them, cause it would be expensive to get them back to their original condition.

I still think that 125's should be more widely promoted (although I am biased). Great to see them at the enduro last week, obviously other people want to seem them promoted more aswell. I bought my one for $1800 and thats a damn good price. It's fast enough to not get lapped by the later model ones and I still have plenty of people on similar spec'd machines. People could start out on the pre 95 model ones, which go for under $3000 normally and then after a season or 2 venture into the later model ones (95 and newer) which go for between $5k and $12k (for a brand new one). However these bikes do require a little knowledge, but so long as someone that is experienced is willing to lend a hand (as i am lucky enough to have) then it is all smooth sailing

Obviously this is all just my opinion and is a hard subject to get everyone to agree on. However the entry level classes are fairly average at the moment and something does need to be done about it.

From the success of our riders internationally in MX it is pretty obvious that they are doing something right so we should definately look at what they are doing.

Just my 2c anyway.

[JohnBoy]

you have made a very valid point, i have suffered the same problem myself this year. i decided to race and since i wasn't skilled enough to race with the big boys and also my bike is somewhat prehistoric and no longer fits into any resonable class. i looked at F3 but as you said i am not 5'9" either and weigh a lot more than 65kg so wasn't a good idea.

i would ike to see your plan actioned and even if at the early stage you could convince the race stewards to tack it onto another class (ie F3) and run with those jokers (which would a good helping hand for younger blokes) but have seperate timing and points table. maybe something like the porche (SP?) cup thats raced in the summer series.

good luck :niceone:

[That Guy]

Yep my street stock idea may not be the way but you are right mx is getting it right so road should follow their lead.

I'm still not convinced $10k is too expensive - go to a MX meet and see how many $15k mx bikes there are - 50 or more. It also means there are another 50 $10k 1 year old ones and so on.

Ask Frosty how much it costs to keep a $3000 ZXR400 going.....

[Skunk]

Let me start by saying I don't race. I've been put off by the costs, and the skills I'd have to start against.
So, as a feeder class, why not old 400's and two stroke 250's? No 600's at all.
Why is F3 such a wide range of machinery and skills? Who is it helping?

[k14]

Well from what I heard, the reason why sv650's were let into F3 is because suzuki got mnz to scratch their backs and suzuki did the same in return. This is one aspect that has helped contributed to the downfall of F3, but not the sole reason.

Probably the most obvious reason is that now these bikes are all well over 10 years old, some are more than 15. These are just getting too old to maintain, parts cost alot and alot of them are coming to the end of their lives. Something needs to be done about it, just what needs to be done is the question.

[Badcat]

VANVANS!!!

they are $3500 NEW.
imagine a vanvan only race class!
i heard that were doing it in the uk and it was televised!
you could make the track like a mini-motard!
am i crazy - or just so seduced by my mighty vanvan?

ken

[SPORK]

VANVANS!!!

they are $3500 NEW.
imagine a vanvan only race class!
i heard that were doing it in the uk and it was televised!
you could make the track like a mini-motard!
am i crazy - or just so seduced by my mighty vanvan?

ken
Here you go:

You're a dick :bleh:

[White trash]

Well from what I heard, the reason why sv650's were let into F3 is because suzuki got mnz to scratch their backs and suzuki did the same in return. This is one aspect that has helped contributed to the downfall of F3, but not the sole reason.

Probably the most obvious reason is that now these bikes are all well over 10 years old, some are more than 15. These are just getting too old to maintain, parts cost alot and alot of them are coming to the end of their lives. Something needs to be done about it, just what needs to be done is the question.

Bullshit sonny.

The SVs were a stand alone class in the Suzuki Central Winter Series. Suzuki no longer supported the series, all the SV owners who'd got into racing winged, MNZ opened the field to 650cc liquid cooled V-twins to accomodate them.

Anyone who seriously wants to tackle road racing, should get themselves a 250GP machine. It'll teach you more about setting up a bike in a season than you'll learn in a lifetime of riding a 600 Sports production bike.

They're cheap to buy, cheap to maintain and cheap to crash.

Changing jets each meeting? Who cares, you have a selection of sprockets to suit wind/track conditions don't you? I'd rather change jets than chain and sprockets.

TZ250 or an RS250, a few years old can be bought for sweet FA now. They have a 250gp class at national level and you can race 'em in F2 at Club level.

Want to get REAL competitive? Get a minimoto and cruise to a party at our place any Friday night. About 1am is when the racing usually kicks off.....

[mikey]

trash forgot to mention how he screams like a girl and runs an hide in the garage when police turn up

[White trash]

But That Guy, if you are seriously keen about have a 600 Superstock class started, get into it mate. The sport needs more "doers" and less "talkers" (like me).

[k14]

Bullshit sonny.

The SVs were a stand alone class in the Suzuki Central Winter Series. Suzuki no longer supported the series, all the SV owners who'd got into racing winged, MNZ opened the field to 650cc liquid cooled V-twins to accomodate them.
Just saying what I heard.


Anyone who seriously wants to tackle road racing, should get themselves a 250GP machine. It'll teach you more about setting up a bike in a season than you'll learn in a lifetime of riding a 600 Sports production bike.

They're cheap to buy, cheap to maintain and cheap to crash.

Changing jets each meeting? Who cares, you have a selection of sprockets to suit wind/track conditions don't you? I'd rather change jets than chain and sprockets.

TZ250 or an RS250, a few years old can be bought for sweet FA now. They have a 250gp class at national level and you can race 'em in F2 at Club level.
Don't rate the 250gp idea aye. There isn't enough competition around, lucky to get 2 250gp bikes to a meeting down here, maybe 10 or so at the nats. They also cost more to maintain than a 125 (twice as many pistons) and are more brutal on tyres, chains etc.

The jetting etc isnt a major issue. I can change a jet on my rs in less than 5 mins and it isn't too hard to work out what jets are required for each day. I would say 4 different sizes would do just about evey condition in NZ.

[TwoSeven]

I agree with k14 on the 125 thing. They are cheap and nasty, plenty around and easy to race - even if you are a big tall lard, still competitive.

[sAsLEX]

top idea, 636s though?

Sounds good, as even though not ideal, someone could purchase a road bike and race it on the odd occasion. that is why MX is good as you can race and be competitive on the bike you normally ride around.

A couple of grand on top of the cost of your road bike for a pipe, rearsets and maybe a fairing and your in! sounds great but with most things in new zealand watch out for the old tall poppy syndrome!

[Ghost Lemur]

I'm still not convinced $10k is too expensive - go to a MX meet and see how many $15k mx bikes there are - 50 or more. It also means there are another 50 $10k 1 year old ones and so on.

You need to compare $10k to the average NZ income. Still think that $10k is easy?

It's looking at taking me 18 months to save up $5k for my next bike and gear. I would love to get into racing for fun sometime, could lead one or both of my sons to get into it later. And who know if they have some talent. But as things stand the chances are super slim of me being able to afford that. Almost makes me hope they have no desire or talent. Nothing would kill me more than having a talented child whom I couldn't afford to let develop.

Not saying my financial situation is anyone's fault than my own. But putting the costs of the entry level beyond the average families capability means that there's less chances of the talent entering the game. More importantly you need for-fun riders and participants just as much as the going-places talent.

Maybe a refined F3 which is only open to 2stroke 250's and 4stroke 400s.

Maybe a series with 150/125 2strokes and 250 4 stokes. Only problem is due to the graduated licencing system 250cc bikes get premium dollars.

A stock series could also be fun. Particularly if there was the ability to hire for each race. Obviously that would require the manufacturer to get on board too. But the benefits to them of being the sole supplier of bikes would/should outway the costs.


Remember the whole idea of these introductory levels are to enable the hobbyists to play, plus inable the talent to develop. Obviously by developing in a cheap series, by the time they need to move up a level they've got some experience/results which should at least make it slightly easier to get sponsorship to offset (to varying degrees) the additional costs of moving up.

The other benefit of a cheap entry level is that more get involved. As more get involved there is more chances of businesses seeing benefits in becoming sponsors. Not to mention the additional flow on effect of more events.

[gav]

So whats wrong with clubmans class? How will you be racing against Craig Shirrifs if you buy a 600? Is he a local at your club? And why do you think you should be competitive with him anyway? Maybe he has more talent for a start as does no doubt Shane King? The thing with road racing is in some respects the bikes do tend to have a longer shelf race. Think you could race a 10 year CR125 in the Nationals and run top 10 in MX? You could in 125 road racing. Its only really the 600 class where perhaps you start to lose out, even in Superbikes or F1 you can still do OK on a modded older bike. Sure to race at a National level is expensive, but why shouldnt it be? Why should it be a cheap sport? Take up bowls if you want cheap.

[sAsLEX]

It's looking at taking me 18 months to save up $5k for my next bike and gear. I would love to get into racing for fun sometime, could lead one or both of my sons to get into it later. And who know if they have some talent. But as things stand the chances are super slim of me being able to afford that. Almost makes me hope they have no desire or talent. Nothing would kill me more than having a talented child whom I couldn't afford to let develop.

what a shit thing to say! If ya kid has talent and loves what they do then they can put in the effort to get what they want out of the thing they love doing. Getting a piece of shit bucket and learning how to rebuild it and putting the hard yards in dont cost much other than time and sweat. And if they are motivated enough money is never an obstacle that cant be overcome, kids have heaps of spare time whie they are young, mow some lawns for race gas money, help out at the local bike shop doing odd jobs to maybe get discount on stuff. If someone has the drive and desire to become something there is nothing stopping them.

Look at TS he has spent god knows how many thousands on his bikes, and he has only been going for 2 years. But he has made the effort to compete in his sport.

[That Guy]

I'm glad this has got some discussion going - most people who have replied I expect either do race or have considered it so all opinions are of value.

I'm not syaing $10-$15k is cheap by any means; but if you look at all the hundreds of people turning up to race motocross (try 300 riders at the Woodville GP for example) they find a way, so even if some of us can't afford that; there are plenty in NZ who can; so what would it take to lure some of them over to the hard stuff?

For me it was great going to Woodville and racing in the expert class and not getting smoked by Kings etc, but still being at the event. I was racing against people at the same level as me and I am pretty sure grades within bike classes is why motocross does so much better than road racing. My guess is a lot of riders might race at national events on 600s (or 125s or 250 GP bikes or whatever was chosen) if they didn't feel like they would be in the way.

The problem is there are so many different bike types out there you can't grade things so people stay away. If you knew to go road racing you had to have a 600 because nothing else was eligible (or a 125 or whatever the class of machine was - I'm not saying 600 street stock is the answer but something needs to be chosen) then a lot more people would be on the same machine and hey presto classes are created - and just maybe we'd get 150 riders at a national meet.

It is so fractured at the moment it's not going to go anywhere.

[TwoSeven]

Out of interest one of the things that motocross seems to have is events for 8-10 year olds and younguns in general. I'd die of shock if I turned up to a NZ road racing club and they were having a mini-moto session in with all the other bikes.

You cant encourage the general populace to get enthusastic about a sport when most of the above posts seems happy to shell out what is effectively 1/3 of the average kiwis yearly income.

Shell out a grand for a mini-moto and kit and you'd have 'bucket' loads of folks down there. Then as they get older, you'd have people more apreciative of spending 3-5k on a 125 and then perhaps 10k if they want to get more serious.

But I think people have delusions of grandeur if they think anyone can hostely be happy shelling out 10-15 grand year after year for a hobby. Leave that to the chaps that get their sponsorships and buy their race wins.

[Kwaka-Kid]

Its a hard one guy.

A Real hard one!!... although i think F3 is closer then alot of us think.

to be perfectly honest, i think if we put Hayden Fitzgerald on my shitted out old VFR400 down on everything and even on my shit tyres, he would i think win a club race... I think if u put Hayden fitzgeral onto 6Chris6's TZR250 (well slower again, prolly would be slowest bike in F3) he would get very close to winning F3.

Just my opinion i guess....

and then, he made that same bike u own now win F3 over and over and over did he not? from what i heard that was a beast not to be reckoned with?

Who knows.... i Like F3 just the way it is :D I dont need a trophy! i just need the bros, the guys i talk to inbetween racemeetings there, amoungst the group, all with a common aim (to get to that finish line fastest!) knowing full well i cant come top, but regardless i have so much fun... Eh Frosty Boy! :P haha! :D

[gav]

Hey, That Guy, why not just race your K5?

[Hoon]

Yeah I kinda agree with KK. F3 is the main feeder class so you can't make it too unattainable to entry level racers. Old 400's are plentiful and cheap. Two strokes, especially GP bikes are too few and high maintenance for most beginner racers on a budget.
Also Motorcycle racing in NZ isn't exactly flourishing at the moment, numbers are low so you can't get too picky with the classes either.

[Brian d marge]

Crikey where do you start ....

First the essence of racing ...I am shit hot you aint ....ok prove it ...K ..1st we need a bike (apples against apples pears against pears)...and go ...

If all you want to do is fang round against your mates then track days etc want to be a weekend racer ...fine

You DONT NEED 10k ...as pointed out a rs 125 can be bought real cheap ,,the secret in making these go fast is the tuning ,,,,but they are a simple engine ,,,and the level of reliability is up to you ...as is learning to ride the damn thing ...possibly the hardest thing ..( wonder why rossi is so good ,,he spent a LOT of time on 125s
Another example the early mc16 hondas shared the same cases as the rs 250 honda ..JHA over here are getting a very reliable ( street ) 70 bhp out of the early 16...which meand a honest 80 in race trim ....ie peaky motor and hard to ride type of stuff .....
that aint going to cost u more than 4 k all up and you will get a good season mid field bottom of top if you are good
I have just built a nice mx bike with revalved suspension ( more to do ) better suspension ( forks of a 2000 125 ) ..rental bars ( from the waste bin from the local shop wire brushed up ...look real smart , and they were thrown out cause the cross bar was bent ,,not the handle bar ..so I just swapped that from my bent set ...Cost ,,nil nadda

What I am saying here is racing isnt a cheap sport ,,,such as table tennis ,,but neither is it a 30 k investment ......

If I was to race road in NZ , I would look at the class I want to win ...look at the machinery needed to win and try to copy that ( bearing in mind the old american saying its all about CC ...a 650 4 valve has less intake area than a 4 cylinder 4 valve ...but a 650 twin will produce more torque ( angular force times radius ) than a 4 cylinder 400 ..ie it will have the drive out of the corner ,,less frontal area But the horsepowers could be the same as the intake area of the 400 is larger ( late at note and stuffed if I am getting off this chair to find my notes !!!! :bleh:

2 stroke or 4 stroke ...well the two stroke is a very efficient pump but tend to be less forgiving in the drive out of the corners ,,,,lighter though ...easier to maintain ....4 stroke well ...yes ...why use 4 strokes when only two will do :devil2:


I guess what all the above clap trap is saying is that IF you use your head , think deeply about what you are doing and how it is getting done, you can race quite competively for quite reasonable sums ...( I am doing it ....)

I would like to know the cost breakdown of a 45 k bike ,,,,it would be a chalenge to do the same thing for 1/2 the amount ...

One of the best formulas I heard was quite simple ...u were graded by your last race ( best lap time ) say the lap record is 1 .50 u do a 2 min then you run with all the bike that are putting down 2 min lap times plus or minus a percentage ....if you do a 1 70 you move up to the bottom of the next class who are say putting down 1,60 plus /minus .....( the percentage is based on the overall attendance at the meeting .....

Motards are 50 percent dirt and 50 percent steet as they were to find out who was the best riders dirt or track ...a motor cross bike with street tyres isnt a motard its just a funny shaped road bike !! and doesnt belong in what seems the dumping ground of F3

McNZ would bow to pressure IF a well presented workable plan was presented to them by a large number of compeditors .... ie organised and willing to participate people .....and the internet is a wonderful tool for doing just that ...

Stephen
Who came 2nd in the 4 hour Ironman enduro on a bike 20 years older that most of the others ....SO it can be done

[LB]

.
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Hamish has some strong thoughts on this, I'll ask him tonight (don't want to wake him up now to ask him, wouldn't get a good reception) (note I'm a bit earlier than normal this morning!!) and will post tomorrow AM. It's something we've often talked about but I'll get it straight before I post.

Very good thread for discussion Guy.

I agree very strongly that the SV650 class in Tim Gibbe's Suzuki Series was great - it all comes down to rider ability, the bullshit stops very quickly. Also the deal to rent or buy one for the series was a BLOODY good deal, got a few people into racing who wouldn't otherwise have been able to afford it.

BTW, speaking of SV650 class, anyone know if Andrew Bretherton will get back into racing? He was SO quick on that SV!

Have been watching the R6 cup racing in the UK each Wednesday night on Sky too, that's really good (probably a bit too big budget for NZ, but a great principle).
.
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[FROSTY]

Guy I totally agree with the reasoning behind your thinking. Production based racing has a huge apeal to me too.
I'd take it one step further and aproach the tyre importers and find a less popular tyre that needs promoting and Have that as the only tyre able to be used.
The only problem with "production" racing is that the factory sponsored guys seem to be able to find a way to get a touch more HP
Trust me here i know for 100% fact that certain bikes in 250 production and sports production got the "factory" hot up kits.
Personally I'd like to see 250 production reintroduced in NZ
A 250cc 4 stroke supplied unmodified.
The racing would be relatively speaking slow and it would work well on every track but Puke
What we need is to get a manufacturer to get in behind the series.

[White trash]

What we need is to get a manufacturer to get in behind the series.

Hyosung GT250 racing.

It's either that or GN250s and you couldn't pay me to race one of them.

[Eddieb]

Suzuki Goose, 350cc, 145kg, 33hp.

Cheap, cheerful, low complexity 4 stroke motor with plenty of tuning skills and parts available due to it using the venerable DR350 motor.

Or get suzuki (Or someone) to import a pile of sv400's from Japan
Suzuki sv400 399cc, 167kg, 52hp.

Either of those should be fast enough to be appealing and fairly exciting around everywhere except maybe Puke and cheap enough for a lot more people to have a go.

The other option no one seems to have mentioned as a starting point, and I'm not sure why cause I don't know anything about it, is the streetstock 150's. Plenty of those around and it doesn't have to be a one make/model series.

[F5 Dave]

One of the hardest things to accept is that someone will always be a better rider than you & someone will always be prepared to spend more than you.

A way back, being broke & a fairly feeble rider I started in buckets. I enjoyed it & could afford it. When some money came about the logical progression was a 125. My arch-nemesis was also planning this move, evident by the new bike turning up in my garage (keep your friends close & your enemies closer) as he was my flatmate.

I then became scared as I realised how much he was spending as the bike got updated, fairings ordered, flash carb, trick bits, wheels, tyres for every meeting. Bugger spending that much, so I bailed.

But I have seen a couple of friends that have all sorts of aspirations & throw all sorts of money at it but at the end of the day they don’t have the talent to be racing right up with the big boys. ‘course they blame it on the money they need to be competitive.

About this time you have to respect the likes of Craig Sheriffs & the like (bro Chris was probably similarly talented) who come from no money & just rely on talent & sponsors.

So the point? Race to have fun. F3, Clubmans, 150s, buckets. If you are any good make the commitment & buy a 600.

F3 has been skewed by the SV650s no doubt, but also by the lack of Japanese race reps. It was their market that really created F3 as we knew it. If the local importers had kept up the flow of importing new Hornet & Bandit 250s/400s then a ‘neked’ F3 class might have evolved.

It hasn't, get over it & go do something crazy like buy a BEARs bike & move to Christchurch. :cold:

[FROSTY]

Suzuki Goose, 350cc, 145kg, 33hp.

Cheap, cheerful, low complexity 4 stroke motor with plenty of tuning skills and parts available due to it using the venerable DR350 motor.

Or get suzuki (Or someone) to import a pile of sv400's from Japan
Suzuki sv400 399cc, 167kg, 52hp.

Either of those should be fast enough to be appealing and fairly exciting around everywhere except maybe Puke and cheap enough for a lot more people to have a go.

The other option no one seems to have mentioned as a starting point, and I'm not sure why cause I don't know anything about it, is the streetstock 150's. Plenty of those around and it doesn't have to be a one make/model series.
I thought about 150/250 streetstock too but there are no more new bikes coming in in 2 smoke.
I think to be a successful production class the bikes need to be available new and at an affordable price. They also need to be reasonable price wise to keep racing so cheap tyres/servicing etc. The goose has the same problem
The SV400 --sure why not --cheap to buy and realatively simple to maintain.
I wondered about the suzuki gsx250' and the likes.

[TwoSeven]

I agree with the graded lap time thing. That used to be used in supersport 600 in the UK back in the 80s.

Basically it doesnt take into account what machine you are on - rather what time you can do on it. The grade you go in depends on what you lap time is at that track.

So for example if you can do a 1.40 at ruapuna then you'll be in grade 1 because the lap record is 1.30 odd. If you are 1.40 to 1.55, you'd be in grade 2 etc. Never raced at the track before, grade 3. It meant you just got whatever machine you could afford, turned up and raced and you knew everyone around you had a similar skill.

For club racers - it was a little different. You had your ACU passbook which would be stamped/signed if you got a top 6 position - that would dictate the grade you are in. You only went up a grade if you scored a podium in more than 3 separate events. They also had a mechanism for the slowest riders dropping grades. It was only based on the races you competed in, so if you missed events you werent penalised.

It was good because it takes the bike and equipment out of the issue. You'd find super tuned custom 250s up against 750s and all crazy manner of things.

If you didnt have a club log book, you got an orange bib so people knew your were new at that track or new to racing.

The supersport and superbike rules were operated in the same way, except there was a machinary limitation and you had to qualify within 10% (or some figure) of the fastest time. This was good because you used to get 150+ 600s turn up and try to qualify, but with only 50 bikes selected, the rest would end up in the graded support races during the day - so everyone got rides, but only a few had a chance to ride in the prof races - although everyone had access to that chance.

[That Guy]

Just to get the record straight here - I have no problem with being beaten by better riders at all - I admire them.

What I'm trying to point out is that mx has far more riders doing it in NZ than road racing. The result has ben Ben Townley, Josh Coppins etc. I'd love to see the days again when we produce another Aaron Slight/Simon Crafar etc - and for now, while we have riders with enough skill they just don't seem to be getting there. If road racing was attended in the same number as mx then pretty quickly follows more dollars and the opportunity to get riders racing overseas.

By the way good luck to that Red Fenton guy (I don't know him) with getting a NZ superbike team going.

My reckoning is we should model road racing on mx as that will attract more riders to road racing. The advantages mx has over road racing (granted road will always be a bit more expensive no matter what is done) is that you can buy new, reliable, reasonably cheap, 'turn key' race bike, and have an enjoyable day's racing, racing people at your own skill level. Hence plenty of people do it. I think F3 should be replaced (or added to with a sub-class) with something similar.

[Fluffy Cat]

Sounds good to me if there had been a super stock 600 series probably would have got an zx6r instead of my 250 ahh let me rephrase that i would have got the 600 after i had got all zee 250 two strokes in NZ.Do not care who wins just enjoy racing as most of the races end up more of a time trial in my case.It would be great to race against similar machines with no 650s 900s or 125s they are a bunch of spoilers and get in the way,whilst i am going it would be nice to have a bit longer races as what we get is way to short.
If super stock happened i would be in,change exhaust, dot tyres,race fairings and braided hoses(why cant you change those in the UK is beyond me) and you are racing.If peeps wanted to blueprint fine by me.
Oh and one day licences would be great.

[Kwaka-Kid]

Hyosung GT250 racing.

It's either that or GN250s and you couldn't pay me to race one of them.



The man has a point! We have here a perfect candidate, Hyosung, what about thier 650's tho? and are they competetive/comaprable to SV650's at all? i fear the manu' isnt quite up with the jappers but nonetheless worth a go... Imagine it, bog stock racing is what im keen for other then F3, everything else is too expensive.

[Racey Rider]

... The advantages mx has over road racing (granted road will always be a bit more expensive no matter what is done) is that you can buy new, reliable, reasonably cheap, 'turn key' race bike, and have an enjoyable day's racing, racing people at your own skill level....

You seem to be forgetting, that a lot of NZ'er can ride their MX bikes just down the road to their local farm track. And another day, go on organized trail rides ($15). To practice at their local MX club track costs $5 - $10 a day in track fees.
A lot of us road racers have to travel some hours to our nearest track ($40 +). Then pay $80 -$100 track fee. Dirt bikes are arguably more crashable, so less cost. More family orientated Dirt riding is always going to attract more users.

[Steve_R6R]

Sometimes you have to go with what you have, if you can get a cheap old 600, race it, beat guys on faster, newer bikes and check your lap times against that of the period when the bike was compeditive. Guage where you are. I rode in the nationals at Manfeild this year on a bike that was built last century. I finnished in the bottom five (2nd to last excluing DNF's). But still managed personal best times and didn't get laped (just). I found the faster riders are supportive of us "slow old fellows" ("just hold your f******g line" they said), Brian Bernard said you only get faster riding with the fast guys. VERY TRUE

I don't know how much faster I would go on an unlimited budget, but I know it wouldn't win me any races.

Just ride wot you got the best you can. Save your pennys for go fast bits or a new bike and dream of sponsors....

[That Guy]

MNZ AGM completed and they decided not to put in any changes to F3 for this year, I know Paul Stewart was thinking about changing it though.

Any hoo I found this series in the UK - looks quite cool I think: http://www.minitwins.co.uk/rules/rules2005a.html

[Kickaha]

MNZ AGM completed and they decided not to put in any changes to F3 for this year, I know Paul Stewart was thinking about changing it though.


My understanding of the AGM from our rep was if F3 and Sidecars don't put decent numbers on the girds this year that next year they will not have a National Championship?

[That Guy]

Yeah I heard that too...I think they had only 11 bikes turn up for F3 at some national races which is pretty sad (considering 30-40 turn up at PMCC and Vic Club F3 racing) but also proves the point something needs doing...

[sedge]

I agree with the graded lap time thing.


Me too ;)... Best thing I've heard so far... You want to go racing, race against people and machines that are as shite as you are !

What is the point of racing... Well, competition... What is the main complaint you hear ? Awww but s/he's spent 30k on his bike in x class and is winning.

Well, feck him/her... If you keep winning coz you're on the best bike then be like Rossi and move down a step, coz it's ghey to compete on something that everyone knows is the best bike.

Look at the Targa NZ, they have a thing called 'index of performance', it means that the shittier your car is the more points you get, IE a 1980s Escort will have a 3.0 index .vs. a 2006 EVO at 0.9. (numbers made up, but you get the idea)

I'm sure as racing goes on the indexes would be worked out.

It also means that as you improve your bike and your laptimes drop you are always competing against like competitors.

As far as ability goes I for one would LOVE to see a cruddy old guy in abused leathers riding a pop up Katana beating some cock on a K5 GSXR1000.

Don't we all appreciate the guys on that old sidecar at Wanganui every year ? If they had some equally shitty competition wouldn't it be even cooler ? even if just for them.

Ah well, that's the only way I'll ever really compete, I can't drop craploads of time or money in to racing but I would like to give it a go... If I can compete with others I'll be happy, if I can get to the top of my class I'd be stimulated to get a better bike and invest more time. If I'm investing time, my family is investing time and I'm pretty sure it would inspire my little guy to invest some time of his own. (he's two and he likes watching MotoGP with me now, I'll need a minimoto soon)

IN FACT, RULES LIKE THIS WILL BE THE THING THAT GETS ME, MY FAMILY AND A LOT OF OTHERS IN TO MOTORCYCLE RACING.

Listen up VMCC et al.

Sedge.

[curious george]

You DONT NEED 10k ...as pointed out a rs 125 can be bought real cheap ,,the secret in making these go fast is the tuning

Stephen
Who came 2nd in the 4 hour Ironman enduro on a bike 20 years older that most of the others ....SO it can be done

Jeeez. So far off the point it's not funny...
I'm about 6'+something and about 85 kg. WTF am I gonna do with a 125GP bike?
The weight penalty against a 50kg kid is massive.
This is assuming I can find a second hand one, otherwise a new one is about $20k iirc....or therabouts. Yes second hand ones are much cheaper, but it is also possibl to spend a heap of money if you are a bad mechanic... :whistle:

And what's the connection with a 20 year old bicycle?
The engine is in the rider, and generally not transferable, but there are exceptions, I believe

[Brian d marge]

Jeeez. So far off the point it's not funny...
I'm about 6'+something and about 85 kg. WTF am I gonna do with a 125GP bike?
The weight penalty against a 50kg kid is massive.
This is assuming I can find a second hand one, otherwise a new one is about $20k iirc....or therabouts. Yes second hand ones are much cheaper, but it is also possibl to spend a heap of money if you are a bad mechanic... :whistle:

And what's the connection with a 20 year old bicycle?
The engine is in the rider, and generally not transferable, but there are exceptions, I believe

Go back and read the first post ..then subsequent posts ...most of em are talking about racing for new people costing way to much ....

Which if you read my post is sort of ( exactly) what I was saying ...,,,and there are many people racing 125s that are bigger and taller than you or I ..and they seem to do just fine ( I think one of the leading road racers in NZ is A lOT bigger than me( I am 6 foot and 90 something kg :D and I am REAL sure he could kick my ar#e )

The point about racing a dinosaur ...is just as its read ....2nd in the 4 hour Iron man on a bike that was built in 86... and cost ( the main theme running through a few of these posts ) not a lot ,,,INCLUDING running costs ...

Stephen :D

[Fluffy Cat]

Have to go with CG there Mr Brian d'marge.Yeah at the end of the day the riders skill will almost always shine through what ever the bike.But we are not all in the same ball park and this thread was about getting more peeps onto the track.When you get people of a similar skill level racing then some things can give you an edge just look at mister Pedrosa in moto gp he has one of the best bikes and weighs 55kg's and he wins.
Now when did you last ride a gp125?.You will remember that for the average bloke the 125 is kind of small.Now throw in the average weight and nah thats not what they were designed for.
There are not that many around and the newer ones are expensive the older ones are cheaper but can cost a lot more to maintain.Plus set up costs if you dont know how to do it you need to pay someone to do it for you.
125s are really the class to get competetive youngsters into racing.I know there are a lot of older people out there on 125's but they should have moved on to bigger bikes after a few years.
Guys right superstock 250 and 600's are the way to go for most people.

As for bicycles everyone who rides knows its the rider not the bike you can't compare on that one it just does not make sense.

[Kickaha]

Now when did you last ride a gp125?.You will remember that for the average bloke the 125 is kind of small.Now throw in the average weight and nah thats not what they were designed for.
There are not that many around and the newer ones are expensive the older ones are cheaper but can cost a lot more to maintain.Plus set up costs if you dont know how to do it you need to pay someone to do it for you.
.

I know of several people in the 80kg+ bracket that have had top 5 finishes in National rounds and NZGP over the last few years,but yes the weight will be a disadvantage,so go on a diet get fitter :D

I disagree that the older bikes cost anymore to maintain than the newer ones,can you provide some figure?

There's a good spec 97 on trademe at the moment with good spares kit for under $6000 thats not expensive as far as race bikes go and with the right rider would be a competitive bike

Set up cost all come down to rider experience and the ability to translate how the bike feels on the track into what adjustments need to be done,some people are better at it than others,most people(down her at least) will offer advice if you are having problems and prepared to ask for help

Superstock 250 will be a cheaper class that GP125 right up until the time you kill your first motor

[Fluffy Cat]

I would say a 97 bike is a newer bike,just look at tz 250s the 98 motor fits into the 95 frame but at the top level nah they really are not competetive anymore.
Parts cost 97 Rs these bikes are 2strokes so life can be hard on some bits pistons i know that on my nsr in F3 kit spec the recomended piston ring life is 5 hours.I would guess that a gp 125 with a larger and flatter topped exhast port would have similar probs but a single ring does not cost that much.Piston would also have a time limit but not sure how long.Then there is the crank.They take quite a bashing on these little motors so again another factor.As to your question no i can't give exact figures but there will be an added maintanance factor the older the bike the greater potential for failure.And the bikes are 2strokes.
The 4stroke is more reliable and a road spek standard motor will out last any race 2stroke.Yeah they can be expensive to fix when broke but there are more around try finding similar amounts of RS 125 parts at the breakers yard.
As for weight yes rider skill always shines through think i said that last time but man 80 plus kgs for a teenage rider just think they would all be wining thhe nats if they just lost weight.The fact is the 125's were not really designed for us lard asses they are for young sprightly types.
Anyway who said racing was cheap i thought the way to go was to make it cheaper than it is but a lot of people out there dont wont or plain can't do their own fixing and 2strokes do need a fair bit of tweaking and we are talking about getting more people into the sport.

[curious george]

It does seem the only way forward is something like a super stock 600 class.
It's got to allow new bikes in, and have a large selection of old bikes to pick over.
Could you run a Ducati? Perhaps the base 749?
The only reason I was able to have a track bike was I was able to convert the RGV from road to track trim for less than 4k, and that includes the original price I paid for the bike.
Whatever class there is, I think there needs to be a budget feeder class, which the stock 600s would seem to be able to do.

[pritch]

I don't think the comparisons with attendances at motocross are entirely valid. It's some time since I was reasonably up with what was happening but the mx riders were mostly young (very?) and most were in the sport with the backing of their parents. Not all but probably most of these parents were farmers, owned a motorcycle shop, or were otherwise in business.

Most road racers of my aquaintance were doing it all on their own, generally on modest incomes. A whole different financial reality. A whole lot harder.
But they were doing it anyway.

In the 2003 IoM DVD Sean Harris talks about what it had cost him to compete, mortgaging his house, no carpet on the floor, etc.

You can't really change all that, but as someone has pointed out, a concerted and co-ordinated approach to Motocycling NZ could change the classes.

[curious george]

I think we are all in some sort of agreeance with changing classes, but to what?
I can see your point with a natural progression from the farm to MX.
Hmmmm, perhaps MCNZ needs to get into schools.

[ajturbo]

Hyosung GT250 racing.

It's either that or GN250s and you couldn't pay me to race one of them.



i'll race em if you pay me!!!!

[ajturbo]

racing......

yep i would like to get back into some sort of racing... but a 600?????
not on your life ... they go WAY too fast for me...(who has a turbo ...:wait: )

i want to race..NOT to win! but to just be there and have fun, the thrill of being in the "zone" is one that i haven't forgotten, to be able to go as fast as i can and not worry about some dick head with a radar or some other dick head pulling out in front of me!

the costs? they will come into the picture. and i think that a prody class that allows MINER mods, ie: wets, pipes, jets... stuff that can be checked easly to confirm they comply....

SV 400.....:yes:
it would have to be a naked one.. as i crash a lot...

a bucket... :yes: .. but the racing is at each end of the country {north island}( please tell me if i'm wrong here!)

(oh and a job to pay for it..hahahah)

[k14]

I would say a 97 bike is a newer bike,just look at tz 250s the 98 motor fits into the 95 frame but at the top level nah they really are not competetive anymore.
Parts cost 97 Rs these bikes are 2strokes so life can be hard on some bits pistons i know that on my nsr in F3 kit spec the recomended piston ring life is 5 hours.I would guess that a gp 125 with a larger and flatter topped exhast port would have similar probs but a single ring does not cost that much.Piston would also have a time limit but not sure how long.Then there is the crank.They take quite a bashing on these little motors so again another factor.As to your question no i can't give exact figures but there will be an added maintanance factor the older the bike the greater potential for failure.And the bikes are 2strokes.
The 4stroke is more reliable and a road spek standard motor will out last any race 2stroke.Yeah they can be expensive to fix when broke but there are more around try finding similar amounts of RS 125 parts at the breakers yard.
As for weight yes rider skill always shines through think i said that last time but man 80 plus kgs for a teenage rider just think they would all be wining thhe nats if they just lost weight.The fact is the 125's were not really designed for us lard asses they are for young sprightly types.
Anyway who said racing was cheap i thought the way to go was to make it cheaper than it is but a lot of people out there dont wont or plain can't do their own fixing and 2strokes do need a fair bit of tweaking and we are talking about getting more people into the sport.

Sorry mate, but fairly obviously you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

I bought my 125 a few months ago and have now done 5 meetings on it. In total the amount of kms i have done is around the 400 mark. What have I spent on my bike? Done gearbox oil ($20) and did the fork seals ($45 all up), also used up 2 plugs ($20 each), now tell me how thats alot more than a 4 stroke?? Alot of people seem to think that 2 strokes are "way too much maintenance, cost too much to run". Everyone seems to have the idea that 2 strokes cost thousands upon thousands to run, that is total bollix.

Yes the pistons and cranks need to be rebuilt but its not too expensive. New piston every 700kms costs $240 (half an hour to change if you know what you're doing) and crank every 1500kms (2 piston changes roughly) costs about $200 for pre 95 rs's and about $450 for later model ones. Now apart from gearbox oil around every 200kms these are all the costs that a 2 stroke incurs that a 4 doesn't (although 4 stroke has to have engine oil changed aswell). oh yeah also 2 stroke needs oil in fuel mix, but that would probably work out pretty much the same as engine oil for a 4. Doesn't sound that bad too me.

So far since I bought my bike (cost $1800) I wouldn't have spent more than $200 for random stuff for it. Just an example of how "cheap and reliable" 4's are look at the problems frosty has had with his! Bet he's spent a few $$ more than me for my 125, and the speed difference isn't all that great.

Then you say that they are too small, well thats complete bullshit aswell. As kickaha said there are 80+kg guys that have ran these in the nats and finished in teh top 3, also a guy down here would be in the 100kg+ bracket and he finished up 5th in the NZGP last year. Me, I'm just on 6 foot tall (tall skinny bastard) and don't have any major problems fitting on it.

Not trying to offend you, just want to make sure you get your facts straight.

If you were a decent rider you could buy a bike and campaign for the nats easily on less than $10k. Don't know of any other classes you could do that in.

My 2c anyway :niceone:

[Kwaka-Kid]

ive done 2 seasons on a Sub$1000 (well sub!) VFR400... it has cost me.... hmm, wait i did put new plugs in once, i didnt need to but i figured lets do it for shits and giggles.

And umm, oh a new set of tyres finally, just last week. Other then that a $30 oil/filter change every 3 race meetings and the odd bit of petrol. Its not a highly competetive bike but competetive enough to be fun, and ive found the common oil changes, always letting it heat up, and never ever hitting rev limiter/over revving... And hopefully got many more seasons of only changing the oil left!

Cheap? Hell yes!

[Brian d marge]

[QUOTE=Fluffy Cat]Have to go with CG

On all or part of the post ...
First GO back and Read the First post THEN read My post the FIRST post is about turning up on an MX bike and running competively ..with out getting Smoked by the king brothers

Then the writer lament why Cant this happen in Road racing ...then he goes through the various classes and says what he likes and dislikes about them ...
leaving F3 as his final option ...THEN , says that its NOT compeditive due to a type of bike and the money some have spent ( which one assume is to expensive for him)

Now go and read MY post where I say that I like the RS 125 ,,,and also the NSR250 of which JHA over here are getting good reliable power without spending a fortune ( trade me at the moment an nsr 250 sp dry clutch magnesium wheels ,,,this one had dog fighter pipes )etc for 3k add another 2k to that to put it into the 70 hp ( probably a lot less as this one came with the pipes )
A TZR would be the same thing ( I dont have a lot of experience with these only the ones through the shop)

Snip

this thread was about getting more peeps onto the track.

I suggest it wasnt ( it was about being competative for a reasonable sum of money .....
Snip
Now when did you last ride a gp125?.
I am a Honda Mechanic in Japan ..and I still cant blag my way into HRC which is around the corner ...and have ridden worked on most of hondas products

I have ridden a couple of the older RS hondas and thats wy I like em as they really teach you about riding ..smoothness,,,keeping it in the power band ,,etc very difficult for me to go fast on straight away ( I have a 125 mx bike as well and you really have to keep the corner speed high as the thing hasnt got the power to mask the riders riding mistakes ( read the whole field goes past when you lose drive !!!)

Snip

You will remember that for the average bloke the 125 is kind of small.

The average rider wieght in America for the rs 125 is between 72 and 80 kg ....seems a bit of pedrosa dont you think???

there are a lot of older people out there on 125's but they should have moved on to bigger bikes after a few years.

Why??? they may enjoy 125 ( the age of the gp riders was quite high a few years ago


Guys right superstock 250 and 600's are the way to go for most people.

Agree with you on super stock but the reg on what can be done needs to be tight and enforced....


As for bicycles everyone who rides knows its the rider not the bike you can't compare on that one it just does not make sense.

Where oh where did I mention Bicycles ( this is a Motorcycle forum so why would I be talking about pushees . Not every one lives in NZ.... so sometimes Names used for one event may mean something different ,,,Iron man does NOT mean running and swimmimng ( remember this is a mc forum..so the chances of the writer talking about motorcycles is quite high )
Iron man means an Enduro where you complete the event on your own ,,,( I am sure you have the same in NZ)

Finally if you are thinking or are Just starting out in racing ,,,,the one of the key things is FITNESS ( ie lose some weight as has been suggested )
This is my personal problem ...( i love drinking its my hobby ,,,but its sort of gathering in the middlelike a little tyre and getting worse ,,,I have even started eating salads :puke: )

Stephen

[Fluffy Cat]

Guess i might not know what i am talking about mebe but then again as logs said he has replaced his spark plugs.......hmmm thats kind of cheaper than a crank rebuild me thinks the fact is that 4strokes are cheaper its just the way it is.
All the big guns support 4strokes and at the moment 4strokes are the way to go.There are just so many more about production wise.
I agree with you Brian the 125s ars superb bikes and they are the entry class for gp's but there are not enough of them in nz for second hand(one or two about is not enough).
Sorry about the iron man thought you meant something else he he.Enduros are something else just look at how the xr 250's did and still do occasionaly.
125s are already established in NZ and don't seem to have a prob with numbers but they have not brought that many average joes into the sport and that was the main thrust of this thread.Enduro and MX are packed out there must be something in it.
Keep your hat on mister K14 i'am just an average joe this is my first race season i do not expect to be a winner ever but i do enjoy racing!.I know a little might be enough to be dangerous.My family are were sort of in volved in the motor industry my dad helped design the Ford transit and was part of the Jag takeover team.I kind of picked up a few things on the way i know that the rs are purpose built race machines they crash well and are quite cheap to run but 2strokes are higher stressed motors and second hand ones are a potential minefield for the unwary and they are ex race bikes.They were not designed for 80kg blokes and they are small cant change that they are tiny really tiny infact almost microscopic.My mate raced an XT 600 single hybrid in the UK we did'nt even change the plugs all season the 4stroke is king, mind u he did'nt win anything either!.
For us the average joe's the 4stroke is the way to go thats my opinion not to be confused with facts.By the way i am racing an nsr 250 and an aprilia rs250 i love 2strokes just not the way to go at the moment.Brian the dry clutch on the nsr is not that good i think Matt at Tyga performance dynoed them and found a 1hp difference plus they wear out quicker and do sometimes warp the plates.The mag wheels save about 1/2 a kg which is good they turn in a bit quicker but the front end is kind of basic in all ways though the brakes are good.My nsr cost$4000 plus about $2000 in bits including pansion cans.The crank finally went a Puke last race after 15years of use K14 take note please 15years.I find that amazing for a 2stroke replacement cost $700 i can do that my self but what if you cant?.Same for the new 4stroke MX bikes quite a few have had valve ressesion probs yep that is expensive!.
Where was i? oh yeh 4strokes are the way to go its obvious eh!.

[FROSTY]

I've been thinking about this a lot and for a heck of a lomng time.
We have lost our entry level class in essence.
Im not going to go into the SV650/400 purist debate because quite frankly I can see both sides of the story and both have valid points to make.
I believe we need to reintroduce a 250 production class. as in twin cylinder 4 strokes. stop laughing for a minute and think. :mad: :mad:
1) a gsx250 or zzr250 or Vtr250 is well under 7 grand to buy. so the cost is (relatively ) low.-and keep in mind that those on a budget could buy second hand
2) By being production --Ie no modifications allowed at all.It would be a cheap class to run in and the cheque book racers would have no advantage
3) by having control tyres--and the event being sponsered by a tyre maker again the big buck guys have no way of gaining. -no slicks just say as an example all must run GPR70's this season. -There are good comercial reasons for an importer to support this as long as the tyre isn't flavour of the month.
4) by keeping it to 250cc the speeds are relatively slow which is perfect for a novice racer
5) by introducing a $5.00 buyout rule (anyone can swap bikes with anyone they protest as cheating) it discoutrages the "factory" racers from suddenly having faster bikes than anyone else.
6) exposed front sprocket compulsury -making it ery difficult to run different gearing.
The whole idea is a safeish ,cheapish class for beginner racers.
It would produce very close racing in that it would be rider ability rather than trick handling or extra HP

[gav]

$5.00 ?? I'll have two, thanks...