Paeroa safety?

[Maha]

While the death of a competitor at Paeroa on Sunday was a tragic ending to a great day, I dont beleive that the event should be shut down.
There has been a bit of talk about that being a possiblity.

I ask why?
I didnt see what happened on Sunday, I am not sure if the accident was because of the track?
I have only been to 6 out of the 19 events held in Paeroa and never once have I felt in danger as a spectator.

The riders that take part in street racing know the dangers that may occur. Jarred Love does, and he keeps coming back.

Those that have raced there and dont anymore (for whatever reason) then thats their choice.
Just like those that choose to keep coming back every year and giving the spectators value for money.

Barry Sheene wouldn't race at IOM because he felt it was to dangerous, there are those who dont hold this feeling about the IOM track. Again, it comes down to choice.
I am sure the rider who died as a result of the injuries on Sunday would be back at Paeroa next year if he was still with us.
I know I will be back next year as a Spectator.

[kimamigo]

I personally don't agree with shutting down the Paeroa circuit and I am absolutely certain that Alan wouldn't agree either.......He truly was one of the most careful riders anywhere, ( he was careful in EVERYTHING he did ), and the fact that he died only proves that no matter how careful any of us is, accidents DO happen, and can happen ANYWHERE........and that's purely what this was....an ACCIDENT......it's far better to learn from this and make some adjustments maybe.......
regards.........kim

[MSTRS]

Caveat Emptor.
Racing of all types is dangerous, and no-one makes the competitors enter, do they?

[Squiggles]

There has been a bit of talk about that being a possiblity.

Rumours you mean? </10chars>

[Maha]

Rumours you mean? </10chars>

Nothing official, just jabbering on about it on here is all. So no, I mean talk.

[p.dath]

I recall in another post that the unfortunate event occurred when he went through the bales and into a forklift parked behind the bales. So it sounds like a very "solvable" safety issue. Don't park bit heavy metal objects behind hay bales.

[scrivy]

I recall in another post that the unfortunate event occurred when he went through the bales and into a forklift parked behind the bales. So it sounds like a very "solvable" safety issue. Don't park bit heavy metal objects behind hay bales.

That was a separate event from the fatality.

[Ixion]

That wasn't the sidecar crash.

I saw the sidecar crash from fairly close (opposite side of the track from where they ended up though)

Didn't seem to me to be anything at all to do with the track. All happened very fast, one moment a couple of chairs blasting down the straight, just getting on brakes, next moment "Whaaa huh what happened then ". And they were up against the hay. They appeared to lose it a bit before they'd have been going into the actual corner. Around the 50 mtr mark, maybe a bit after?. Weren't actually going that fast by then, though I'd noticed in an earlier race that they came very close into that corner. But, then, bikes do get close going into a corner, it's the laws of physics.

I guess (but it's absolutely a guess ) that they touched at speed and tangentially. And one of them flipped. Flipping would be anything to do with the track, I'd think (though I'm no expert). And if a sidecar flips on top of you, it's not going to be good.

One of those "shit happens" things. I don't see that the track had anythign at all to do with it.

[froggyfrenchman]

Last weekend was my first time at Paeroa as a rider. I have been going to both Paeroa and Wanganui as a spectator for years. (worth mentioning i had never watched a meet at a track until i started racing)
Like most others, i could see much room for improvment on the safety front. In particular, i would have liked to see much more bottle bales on the right hander before the hairpin and more hay bales on the left hander.
However I will not critisize the organisers. Year after year they put on a great event, enjoyed by hundreds of riders and thousands of spectators.
As a member of the commitee trying to get this Hastings Street Race off the ground (March 2011, no more details for you at the mo) I am starting to understand the HUGE challenge these guys undertake every year to make it happen.
Each rider has the choice of riding or not riding. Some 250 odd chose to ride this year. Anybody who turns up to watch has to walk past signs telling them how dangerous it is for them to stand on the side of the road. Yet we still flock to the street races every year.
Well done to the organisers of BOTS for everything that you did get right. Shame that it will be shadowed by the few things that went wrong.
Im looking foward to riding again at Paeroa next year, and im sure im not the only one.

[CookMySock]

Tracks aren't designed for racing - they're designed for crashing. This isn't a race track - it's a street circuit. Ya pays ya money and ya rolls ya dice.

Same goes for spectators. Sharpen up or get out - take it or leave it, and THATS the reason why people love it. A couple of times we (spectating) moved, coz it was, er, unwise.


Steve

[Maha]

Thanks for your input Ixion and Froggy.
As I suspected, it was not a track issue that caused the accident.
The organisers go to great lenghts to ensure that safety is paramount for all who attend on the day.
Its bike racing, there will be occassions of OMFG and evreryone who attends, knows this.
We have a bit of an engine case here that hit Mom on the legs a couple of years ago while we were waiting to cross the track.
Steve Briggs didn't get that bit back, we kept it as a momento of the day.

I love the fact that you can real close to the action, there is no need to get close for those who find that aspect frightening.

[SixPackBack]

Thankfully Paeroa competitors don't race over bridges.....The hordes would be hanging them high!

[crazyhorse]

He did what he loved doing - that's the way I'd like to go. My thoughts are with his family and friends, but I agree, had this not happened, chances are, he would've been back next year......

[javawocky]

I love the fact that you can real close to the action, there no need to for those who find that aspect frightening.
Yeah use your brain. We were waiting near the end of the main streight to cross when we arrived and the energy blast as they went by was amazing. However I was sure to stand behind one of those solid pillers on the side of the track.

Also we chose the slowest left hander to get a great view as they went past and minimize risk. While there I always kept an eye on what was coming in case I had to duck.

If I raced I wouldn't race there, but I respect them that do.

[retro asian]

I love the fact that you can real close to the action,

Same, its also so much easier to get around the track than say Pukekohe...

Where else can you stand topless a metre's distance away from Sports bikes on full lean?



EDIT: Did anyone racing bang their knee on that curb?

[Maha]

Yeah use your brain. We were waiting near the end of the main streight to cross when we arrived and the energy blast as they went by was amazing. However I was sure to stand behind one of those solid pillers on the side of the track.

Also we chose the slowest left hander to get a great view as they went past and minimize risk. While there I always kept an eye on what was coming in case I had to duck.

If I raced I wouldn't race there, but I respect them that do.

Maybe a different story if a spectator was get taken out, possibly the event be would then be shut down pending a full enquirey?


Same, its also so much easier to get around the track than say Pukekohe...

Where else can you stand topless a metre's distance away from Sports bikes on full lean?

EDIT: Did anyone racing bang their knee on that curb?

[Waxxa]

Street circuits are street circuits and come with an inherited risk over and above a normal race track; point 1.

Point 2: (this comes from one of the racers themselves) scrutinise those who have entered the race more closely. Some of the accidents last sunday were caused by rider fault (inexperience) which didn't need to happen.

Point 3: (my personal opinion) if Paeroa want to keep this great event, perhaps they (council) take the circuit and re-lay the road (particularly the back straight)

[Tony.OK]

Same, its also so much easier to get around the track than say Pukekohe...

Where else can you stand topless a metre's distance away from Sports bikes on full lean?



EDIT: Did anyone racing bang their knee on that curb?

That corner was very different last year....................the fence was further back with bales on the curbing.

[Tony.OK]

Street circuits are street circuits and come with an inherited risk over and above a normal race track; point 1.

Point 2: (this comes from one of the racers themselves) scrutinise those who have entered the race more closely. Some of the accidents last sunday were caused by rider fault (inexperience) which didn't need to happen.

Point 3: (my personal opinion) if Paeroa want to keep this great event, perhaps they (council) take the circuit and re-lay the road (particularly the back straight)

Nah the back straight is a blast........................apart from gear failure everyone is on the track, how hard you decide to push with the extra risks is the riders choice.

Having said that..............this is 2010..................maybe someone should suggest hiring the airfence they use at Wanganui for the plastic bottle right hander............the technology is easily available in this day and age.

[Mom]

Point 3: (my personal opinion) if Paeroa want to keep this great event, perhaps they (council) take the circuit and re-lay the road (particularly the back straight)

No way Jose! Those bumps are part of the "fun" for both racers and spectators. Scare the shit out of your self and stand real close to where they land next year , fantastic stuff!


That corner was very different last year....................the fence was further back with bales on the curbing.

I noticed a few changes to the baling and fencing restrictions this year from last. In fact I dont remember a meet where the spectators could stand on the outside of the Suzuki S's or whatever they are called now. I saw a dont loiter sign this year, but still people standng there. We have deer fencing instead of sheep fencing, not that it wil stop anything from happening really. Common sense should dictate where it is safe to stand as a spectator. I got hurt standing at a "safe" crossing point. First time in I dont remember how many years I have ever been injured at a race meeting as a spectator.

No doubt there will be an indepth look at the whys and hows of this weekends incidents, with a view to making improvements if it is possible to. Racing is inherently dangerous, you can only mitigate a certain amount of risk.

[sunhuntin]

Maybe a different story if a spectator was get taken out, possibly the event be would then be shut down pending a full enquirey?

last time i went to wyndham, a spectator got taken out and was carted away in an ambulance. she was sitting on the bales, despite repeated calls over the loud speakers for spectators to get off them.

[froggyfrenchman]

Nah the back straight is a blast........................apart from gear failure everyone is on the track, how hard you decide to push with the extra risks is the riders choice.

Having said that..............this is 2010..................maybe someone should suggest hiring the airfence they use at Wanganui for the plastic bottle right hander............the technology is easily available in this day and age.

What he said....

[Peter Smith]

I raced there in the early days and the final crossing on the back straight was frightening. I watched Robert Holden crash several time that day. I said I would never go back to race at Paeroa, but I did race again this year and I felt the track conditions were very good, a big improvement over the first few meetings in the early 90's.
I might even be back next year.
I think alot of the riders need to ease up a bit, there were far too many crashes which cause major time delays and ruins what is suppose to be a fun day. It is not part of a championship and with so many delays it gives the event a bad name, just like some of the comment about Wanganui this year which also had many delays.
I would be a shame to loose such a great event.

[jellywrestler]

I saw the sidecar crash concerned and it was a racing incident that could've happened anywhere on a race track. The medics were there within seconds too, leapt out of the pace car real quick.

[gsxr&crf450]

I raced at Paeroa 4 years in a row back 12 odd years ago. I always thought after practise that we were crazy going there, however when the flag drops, you seem to forget about the obvious danger, untill you are driving home thinking, that place is super dangerous. The problem is that riders don't know how to back off a little bit, and they go as hard as they can. I think it definately need allot more proper crash fences. And the crowd needs to be kept at much safer distance from the track.
My very best wishes to the families and friends of the man they lost.

[george formby]

Personally, I felt privileged to spectate at such a visceral & exciting event. I'm still slack jawed at the faith the competitors have in each other & the mammoth effort of all those involved in the organisation. World wide, events like this are becoming very rare, I hope a positive & progressive attitude prevails, taking the Battle of The Streets far into the future.

[george formby]

[QUOTE=Mom;1129660447]No way Jose! Those bumps are part of the "fun" for both racers and spectators. Scare the shit out of your self and stand real close to where they land next year , fantastic stuff!

I have a vid taken at the first bump beside the dummy grid. A motard standing up & weaving close enough to pinch my camera. What if did go through my mind but bugger me it's the most exciting thing I've seen in years.

[Maha]

I have a vid taken at the first bump beside the dummy grid. A motard standing up & weaving close enough to pinch my camera. What if did go through my mind but bugger me it's the most exciting thing I've seen in years.[/QUOTE]

Hell yeah, I was taking a short vid at the 2nd intersection (about where there enter the pit are) once during the motards and had to pull back cos' one was really really close to the outside, so close in fact, when he'd gone past, there was a black mark in between the parallel parking line and me where his tyre had landed.

[Conquiztador]

Huge respect to all riders who provided the entertainment! And my sincerest condolences to the fallen sidecar riders family and friends.

To stand on the main straight at the slight bend and see the riders pass at full speed just a meter away got my heart beating. Until I did see that I was almost thinking "I could give this a go..."

[JayRacer37]

Same, its also so much easier to get around the track than say Pukekohe...

Where else can you stand topless a metre's distance away from Sports bikes on full lean?



EDIT: Did anyone racing bang their knee on that curb?


Nah, you would wack your head on the fence first. We were sliding our knees on the kerb over the stop bank and in the right hander right after that one though.

This year was my first at Paeroa. I thought it was a bit crazy after two slow laps of practice but got my head around it pretty quickly. I felt it was safer than Wanganui - at least there was the begginings of run off in the fast areas at Paeroa, wheras at Wanganui there is always a foot high kerb to greet you when/if you crash. We all know what we are getting into going there - and that's why this year was my first.

Jay

[Rcktfsh]

Nah, you would wack your head on the fence first. We were sliding our knees on the kerb over the stop bank and in the right hander right after that one though.

This year was my first at Paeroa. I thought it was a bit crazy after two slow laps of practice but got my head around it pretty quickly. I felt it was safer than Wanganui - at least there was the begginings of run off in the fast areas at Paeroa, wheras at Wanganui there is always a foot high kerb to greet you when/if you crash. We all know what we are getting into going there - and that's why this year was my first.

Jay

Yeah well what would you know ya big girls blouse, despite having a clear advantage in riding a bike from the 80's (we all know how good things were in the good old days) you struggled to beat half the field in the feature race. Frankly Seans blow up sex doll, which for some reason you had on display in your pits, could have done a better job.

[Mom]

I have a vid taken at the first bump beside the dummy grid. A motard standing up & weaving close enough to pinch my camera. What if did go through my mind but bugger me it's the most exciting thing I've seen in years.

A couple of years ago we were standing about there on the back straight. There was a guy with a young girl next to him. There was only sheep mesh along the curb so this little girl was leaning right out so she could see up the straight. I said to her Dad, you might want to get her to step back a bit before the bikes come through. After they had passed us the first time the bloke thanked me. He had no idea just how close the racing is.

[sidecar bob]

Yeah well what would you know ya big girls blouse, despite having a clear advantage in riding a bike from the 80's (we all know how good things were in the good old days) you struggled to beat half the field in the feature race. Frankly Shauns blow up sex doll, which for some reason you had on display in your pits, could have done a better job.

Shaun Ellis has a blow up sex doll !!!??? That bastard is going to hear from me, he's been holding out.

[Grubber]

[QUOTE=DangerousBastard;1129660353]Tracks aren't designed for racing - they're designed for crashing.

Hmmmmm....now this makes sense. So we race on a track primarily to crash on it?????

[jellywrestler]

I felt it was safer than Wanganui - at least there was the begginings of run off in the fast areas at Paeroa, wheras at Wanganui there is always a foot high kerb to greet you when/if you crash.

clearly you haven't seen anyone crash at the kink on the main straight then, nor indeed the kink on the back straight? I might send them a tennis court net soon , they can stretch it between those two forklifts and actually make use of them...

[Kiwi Graham]

You cannot compare street and circuit racing, they are two totally different beasts. The racers that choose to race them know what the risks are and make their decision to race based on their own risk assessments.

Short of moving buildings, street furniture etc your not going to make much of a difference. However there are things that can be done, its all down to cost.
The IOM for instance, they have tried real hard to improve things there. The mountain section; they have lowered banks on the inside of corners (improving visability), replaced steal drain covers with the ones you fill with tar seal, they burned of the white lines off and use a 'one application' grippier paint (no build up of paint layers), use chamfered (sloping) curbs).
In the towns they now use (and are replacing) street signs with removable ones, they water blast the bird shit of the road under trees and other overhangs etc. (I'm sure Shaun could elaborate further)

Paeroa could be made a little safer and you can bet your ass AMCC and PPT race committee will be de-briefing on what can be improved upon in time for next year and have a plan to make it as safe as possible in years to come.

I love street racing and plan on being there next year but because I wont be vying for a podium possition I wont be giving it 10-10ths but trying all the same and enjoying racing in front of a large crowd.

[suzuki21]

Why the hell cant a GPS map be made of where barriers should be so they are put in the same place each year? Any idiot would be able to set up crash barriers then. I dont understand why evey year organizers at race meetings (closed circuit as well) usually get a high profile rider to check the track and have to tell them to move barriers or add more. I also believe an experienced rider wasnt taken around the Paeroa circuit before racing this year to check the track safety?

[Quasievil]

Why the hell cant a GPS map be made of where barriers should be so they are put in the same place each year? Any idiot would be able to set up crash barriers then. I dont understand why evey year organizers at race meetings (closed circuit as well) usually get a high profile rider to check the track and have to tell them to move barriers or add more. I also believe an experienced rider wasnt taken around the Paeroa circuit before racing this year to check the track safety?

Tony Reese went out with the sighting in lap, I assume for this reason

[CookMySock]

Hmmmmm....now this makes sense. So we race on a track primarily to crash on it?????The whole intent of a properly designed track, is to make racing as safe as possible. Every possible scenario is analysed and the dangers minimised.

Street racing just isn't built that way. There are nasty little steel pipes, concrete power poles, square-edged lumps of concrete, people standing riiiight next to the track - it's never going to be a smart thing to do.

So either do it, or don't do it.

Steve

[Rcktfsh]

Shaun Ellis has a blow up sex doll !!!??? That bastard is going to hear from me, he's been holding out.

actually it gets worse, the doll is Sean Walsh's ex

[sunhuntin]

bit in the paper today about the accident. the other rider was dave lett, who is local. ive never heard of him, but im assuming hes related to joe lett, who used to own the suzuki dealer. it said the bikes collided at low speed. swingers got away ok.
dave came away with a broken leg, broken ribs and shoulder blades, so he will be a bit sore for a while. said that alan had pelvic and chest injuries.

[scrivy]

Shaun Ellis has a blow up sex doll !!!??? That bastard is going to hear from me, he's been holding out.

He'll need vinyl repair patches after you've finished with it..........

[jellywrestler]

Tony Reese went out with the sighting in lap, I assume for this reason
Maybe you thinking of Tony Rees? Paul Dobbs was riders rep and part of his job was to go around in the safety car before it all started, Rees was the lead rider for the newcomers. One of the issues is that the wool fadges, filled with plastic bottles, at the end of the back straight were all in place but they were just sitting on the dirt and riders were sliding right under them. The riders reps veiw wouldn't be able to ascertain the integrity of this system really.
I'm sure there will be a few things looked at in closer detail and improvements made so we can all be better off next year

[jellywrestler]

He'll need vinyl repair patches after you've finished with it.......... velcro patches give that extra challenge on the next outing...

[JayRacer37]

Yeah well what would you know ya big girls blouse, despite having a clear advantage in riding a bike from the 80's (we all know how good things were in the good old days) you struggled to beat half the field in the feature race. Frankly Seans blow up sex doll, which for some reason you had on display in your pits, could have done a better job.

I know, sorry. I'll get the other half next year. Maybe you could have a go at it for me then Mr? :)

[JayRacer37]

clearly you haven't seen anyone crash at the kink on the main straight then, nor indeed the kink on the back straight? I might send them a tennis court net soon , they can stretch it between those two forklifts and actually make use of them...

Yeah, it does have some loverly fast corners...Aside from where they could have had more bails off the back straight and had them secured a bit so you didn't go under them so easily (and less forklifts...) at least there was a patch of runoff. The kink on the front straight yes, it could be hairy if you tried to get four bikes or two sidecars through at full noise - but even on the quick bikes you only need one lane on the exit to get through flat, so there is a bit of room. But no, I wouldn't want to crash there - like the esses at Wanganui.

[JayRacer37]

actually it gets worse, the doll is Sean Walsh's ex

We have been loaned it for next weekend too

[Quasievil]

Maybe you thinking of Tony Rees?

Oh shit, thank you for the correction, my bad, I think my day will be that much better now that I can correctly spell his name.

P.S
Veiw is spelt View

[sidecar bob]

Tony Reese went out with the sighting in lap, I assume for this reason

He lead the new rider sighting laps, at warp factor 12 I might add.
A couple of dudes binned in that.
Paul Dobbs was riders rep & did a track inspection.

[Biggles08]

One thing I was annoyed at was the grid positions kept changing....as per the written 'briefing' we were to look on the wall at the Pit office on the Saturday while scutineering was happening to find out our grid positions...if we had issue with where we were gridded we were to sort it out on the Saturday as "No discussion will be entered into on Sunday."

I was stoked to have been put in 7th on the grid as my starts are a tad shit at the moment (see my vid for a good eg). For some reason, by Sunday I was back to 10th on the grid even though I checked on the Sat at the end of the day. Anyway, I didn't say anything just thought it was weird...but it got worse...by race 2 I was back in 11th on the grid! I checked with Paul D (the riders rep) re this and he was surprised to not even be shown on the grid! We checked it out and they had decided to start the second race based on the finishing order of the first race (Paul had a DNF in the first)...I would have thought this may have been a good thing to explain at the 'not so riders briefing' in the morning....just a wee gripe :-)

[sidecar bob]

Tracey on the pink sidecar got bumped from the second row to the third row because someone complained.
She then went out & promptly spanked the arse of the complainee.
As was said somewhere, maybe they do it so theres as heap of passing.

[Kickaha]

Whats up with that?, Wangas and Nationals you qualify and that's your grid for the day

[Tony.OK]

Whats up with that?, Wangas and Nationals you qualify and that's your grid for the day

For some reason they make the grid from the previous years performance.......bit dumb considering theres 2 timed practice sessions.

Last year was my 1st ever time at Paeroa, only had 1 practise and was 7th fastest in F1, but was on 2nd to last grid. Go figure?
Made it hard to get through the pack but was still fun.

[Peter Smith]

Sighting laps my arse. There were bikes passing me inside and outside, doing mono's down the main straight. It was bloody dangerous and I was not surprised there were crashes, there were too many bikes.
The yellow flags were out but it seemed more like a practice session than sighting laps.

[woodyracer]

The only thing i find dangerous at paeroa is the speeds on the main straight....260km/h.......pretty bloody fast if a bike fipps out and goes through one of those flimsy little wire fences and takes out a dozen people....

[Toot Toot]

The only thing i find dangerous at paeroa is the speeds on the main straight....260km/h.......pretty bloody fast if a bike fipps out and goes through one of those flimsy little wire fences and takes out a dozen people....
And that my friend is exactly what we all fear every year we go there. Do you think there is a Medical Clinic outside staffed with Emergency Dept Intensivists just for the riders????? What other race track in New Zealand has that?

[Maha]

The first year I went, I remember thinking '' ya fucked if any one of these bikes cocks it up'' but I couldn't get enough of the close up action, strange piece of equipment the ole' brain.

[suzuki21]

For some reason they make the grid from the previous years performance.......bit dumb considering theres 2 timed practice sessions.

Last year was my 1st ever time at Paeroa, only had 1 practise and was 7th fastest in F1, but was on 2nd to last grid. Go figure?
Made it hard to get through the pack but was still fun.

Friend of mine got 6th last year in the class he runs in and this year he was dead last on the grid.

[Shaun]

The only thing i find dangerous at paeroa is the speeds on the main straight....260km/h.......pretty bloody fast if a bike fipps out and goes through one of those flimsy little wire fences and takes out a dozen people....


That is my exact problem with the place. I used to race roads all the time, I know the risks of course, but to have spectators hurt/killed in an event like this in our PC SOFT COCK country, would give Motorcycling such a bad name, that it would help Gauantee NO BIG sponsors ( Outside the industry) wanting to be involved in the future

[Quasievil]

The only thing i find dangerous at paeroa is the speeds on the main straight....260km/h.......pretty bloody fast if a bike fipps out and goes through one of those flimsy little wire fences and takes out a dozen people....

When I raced it last year on the straight there was a few guys leaning right out trying to pass me a beer, a beer in the head at 180 kmph (motard) would kinda hurt me, as well as them.
I didnt like it to much

[scrivy]

maybe they do it so theres a heap of passing.

What? You mean wind?? It's all those kens you drink dude, bloats ya!!!

[Conquiztador]

When I raced it last year on the straight there was a few guys leaning right out trying to pass me a beer, a beer in the head at 180 kmph (motard) would kinda hurt me, as well as them.
I didnt like it to much

We need signs on the fence saying: "DO NOT FEED THE RACERS" ;)

[avgas]

Maybe a different story if a spectator was get taken out, possibly the event be would then be shut down pending a full enquirey?
Bah humbug to that. You paid to enter and watch motorbike racing. Its not like going to McDonalds, ordering a big-mac and then having a motorbike hit you at the counter.

[scrivy]

Bah humbug to that. You paid to enter and watch motorbike racing. Its not like going to McDonalds, ordering a big-mac and then having a motorbike hit you at the counter.

Fully agree with you!! However, we both know that's not what would happen if OSH were to be involved.
Yes there are signs warning of the dangers, but no one signs an indemnity either.......

[avgas]

Fully agree with you!! However, we both know that's not what would happen if OSH were to be involved.
Yes there are signs warning of the dangers, but no one signs an indemnity either.......
No need to. OSH states you only have to address Hazards to people on-site. As long as those signs state that you are essentially in an area where all objects cause harm, or have potential to cause harm. You are covered.
Otherwise we would have to sign forms for everything in our life. The indemnity form is if YOU are performing an act that could cause yourself harm (e.g. I plan to stick a fork in the signposted power-sockets, and I can not sue the building owner if I die).
I imagine the riders sign indemnity forms - but correct me if I am wrong.

[scrivy]

No need to. OSH states you only have to address Hazards to people on-site. As long as those signs state that you are essentially in an area where all objects cause harm, or have potential to cause harm. You are covered.

What I am saying though, is if an untrained marshall failed to notify of an impending hazard to a rider, and a rider had to take evasive action to avoid said obstacle, and inadvertantly went into spectators. Would the club then be liable for not adequately taking all reasonable steps to ensure all possible situations had been thouroughly thought through? I'm beginning to pack my undies for clubs and organisers as things stand.....

[Toot Toot]

Yes scrivy, in the outstanding circumstances you point out then the club and/or the president would most likely be fined or in extreme cases, jailed, for negligence causing death. Only due to the untrained marshall being utuilised. This is reasonably common in workplace accidents causing death where the owners have shown to have failed to take all REASONABLE steps to reduce hazzards. A signed disclaimer means fuck all if the employer/organiser is found to have been negligent leading directly to an accident causing death.

[scrivy]

Training flaggies should be a high priority then!
Willy on his sidecar got hit on the helmet by a flaggie looking the wrong way at Wanganui, and I very nearly wore a flag at the kink on the back straight at Paeroa.

[jellywrestler]

I plan to stick a fork in the signposted power-sockets.
Scrivy will help you here, he has plastic ones for sale

[avgas]

What I am saying though, is if an untrained marshall failed to notify of an impending hazard to a rider, and a rider had to take evasive action to avoid said obstacle, and inadvertantly went into spectators. Would the club then be liable for not adequately taking all reasonable steps to ensure all possible situations had been thouroughly thought through? I'm beginning to pack my undies for clubs and organisers as things stand.....
Er not if you sign a disclaimer stating that you are racing in a hazardous environment etc. However there is the weak point that say a flag marshall trips falls backwards and hits a spectator - these and similar situations are outside the norm.
But a flag hitting a racer would be investigated internally regardless - OSH only comes into play if its outside agreed set ranges previous declared in disclaimers. e.g. If I am racing on the track, and I signed a disclaimer stating all racing issues causing death are not fault of the club. However if someone parks a forklift in the track......well that is not due diligence is it. It is outside the set parameters required to be taken.

[avgas]

Training flaggies should be a high priority then!
Willy on his sidecar got hit on the helmet by a flaggie looking the wrong way at Wanganui, and I very nearly wore a flag at the kink on the back straight at Paeroa.
It sounds like a placement problem more than anything. No one should be sticking anything near the riders path.
This is covered under OSH as potential to cause harm outside agreed parameters.

[scrivy]

Er not if you sign a disclaimer stating that you are racing in a hazardous environment etc.

Sorry avgas, I meant if the rider was then to go on and hit spectators due to an inaction on behalf of a marshall.....

[scrivy]

Scrivy will help you here, he has plastic ones for sale

Spyda, you're a sparky. Don't you know you cant get an electric shock from plastic ones........ believe me I've tried.....

[Toot Toot]

Er not if you sign a disclaimer stating that you are racing in a hazardous environment etc. However there is the weak point that say a flag marshall trips falls backwards and hits a spectator - these and similar situations are outside the norm.
But a flag hitting a racer would be investigated internally regardless - OSH only comes into play if its outside agreed set ranges previous declared in disclaimers. e.g. If I am racing on the track, and I signed a disclaimer stating all racing issues causing death are not fault of the club. However if someone parks a forklift in the track......well that is not due diligence is it. It is outside the set parameters required to be taken.

You are assuming the flag marshalls are properly trained. Scrivvy's question was based on an untrained flaggie, so the club would be liable for not following due diligence and placing properly trained flaggies

[Tony.OK]

When I raced it last year on the straight there was a few guys leaning right out trying to pass me a beer, a beer in the head at 180 kmph (motard) would kinda hurt me, as well as them.
I didnt like it to much

Thats where ya went wrong bro...............a real chook chaser woulda grabbed the beer, popped the cap under one arm whilst backing it in to T1, then once past the apex tilted helmet up and taken a swig while apexing T2, then wheelying out and passing the bottle to the flag marshall...................shit, and I thought "I" was soft! :bleh::niceone::apint:

[yungatart]

What I am saying though, is if an untrained marshall failed to notify of an impending hazard to a rider, and a rider had to take evasive action to avoid said obstacle, and inadvertantly went into spectators. Would the club then be liable for not adequately taking all reasonable steps to ensure all possible situations had been thouroughly thought through? I'm beginning to pack my undies for clubs and organisers as things stand.....

Untrained marshalls are always placed with trained marshalls, at least in the clubs I marshall for.


Training flaggies should be a high priority then!
Willy on his sidecar got hit on the helmet by a flaggie looking the wrong way at Wanganui, and I very nearly wore a flag at the kink on the back straight at Paeroa.
Training of marshalls is a high priority, at least in the clubs I marshall for.

[javawocky]

Thats where ya went wrong bro...............a real chook chaser woulda grabbed the beer, popped the cap under one arm whilst backing it in to T1, then once past the apex tilted helmet up and taken a swig while apexing T2, then wheelying out and passing the bottle to the flag marshall...................shit, and I thought "I" was soft! :bleh::niceone::apint:

I reckon that number 333 could have done this, he was backing into the corners nice and good! :Punk:

[Jabez]

While the death of a competitor at Paeroa on Sunday was a tragic ending to a great day, I dont beleive that the event should be shut down.
There has been a bit of talk about that being a possiblity.

I ask why?

Because they ran out of ambulances & there was a 30min wait for one to be available (can't race without one) & they had to finish @ 5pm anyway.

[Jabez]

Training flaggies should be a high priority then!
Willy on his sidecar got hit on the helmet by a flaggie looking the wrong way at Wanganui, and I very nearly wore a flag at the kink on the back straight at Paeroa.

Do you not realize that flag marshals control the area between them & the next flag marshal, therefore they have to look in the same direction that the racers are going (with back to riders).... not much point looking at riders coming if someone has come off behind you & you don't warn the coming riders...Flag marshals have to trust the other marshals to be their eyes!

[MSTRS]

Do you not realize that flag marshals control the area between them & the next flag marshal, therefore they have to look in the same direction that the racers are going (with back to riders).... not much point looking at riders coming if someone has come off behind you & you don't warn the coming riders...Flag marshals have to trust the other marshals to be their eyes!

Not quite true. Marshals need to be aware in both directions (blue flag comes to mind), there are always at least 2 on a point, and the one waving the flag needs to be doubly aware of what's coming as well. The referred-to incident shows lack of marshal training/ability.

[Gremlin]

MSTRS, it really depends on who is running it. While not a race day, Hampton's uses one marshal per point, as the marshals do not move, do not attend incidents, and therefore, you simply wave flags. One person per point suffices for that.

I have always seen inexperienced marshals placed with more experienced marshals, with the idea that the experienced ones teach the inexperienced, and I've helped instruct plenty over the years.

Jabez, I think in the planning, 4.30pm was the initial cut, but the event could be run until 5pm. The circuit needed to be restored to roads by 6pm...

[MSTRS]

MSTRS, it really depends on who is running it. While not a race day, Hampton's uses one marshal per point, as the marshals do not move, do not attend incidents, and therefore, you simply wave flags. One person per point suffices for that.

.
If it's racing, then it shouldn't make any difference who's running the show, because it all falls under MNZ rules. Whilst I'm not certain (Frosty?) it should be 2+ marshals per point.
And point taken about track/ride days...they are a different thing altogether

[Jabez]

Not quite true. Marshals need to be aware in both directions (blue flag comes to mind), there are always at least 2 on a point, and the one waving the flag needs to be doubly aware of what's coming as well. The referred-to incident shows lack of marshal training/ability.
I'm specifically talking about the marshal waving the flags (except the blue flag, which is another marshal looking at the riders coming toward him) not the other marshals at the point.
Of course you (flag marshal) are aware of the riders coming passed, but you have to trust that the ones looking the other way will warn/push you out of harms way.
If the marshal turned to look at the oncoming riders (while others are passing) then their attention and reaction time would be impaired, thus reducing the advanced warning to riders (crashes happen at a very rapid rate & I'm sure that the racers want as much warning as possible).
BTW I am referring to the kink before the hairpin at Paeroa here, other tracks/corners may enable different techniques.
Also bearing in mind that you have to watch the next flag marshal who can react to situation around the next corner that you can't see or hear, but must react as well (IE. stationary yellow).
Personally I would love to watch more racing action, but we are there for the riders safety!

[jasonu]

Point 2: (this comes from one of the racers themselves) scrutinise those who have entered the race more closely. Some of the accidents last sunday were caused by rider fault (inexperience) which didn't need to happen.

Yes on that one. A few (a lot) of years ago I got cleaned up by a PE250 riden by some guy who lied about his experience on his entry. I don't remember the actual crash but Warren New, who was marshalling said he had to literally sit on me to stop me running about like headless chook. I was out for 45 minutes then got a meat wagon ride to the Thames hospital where I shared a room with the PE rider. At the time I didn't know who he was. I remember him bragging how he had lied on his entry about his raceing experience. He had actually done zero events before this. He said he rounded the sweeping corner past the pits, fucked it up and hit a bale. Apparently I was next on the scene and got skittled by his bike sliding back onto the track.

[Kickaha]

I very nearly wore a flag at the kink on the back straight at Paeroa.

That was $50 well spent, would have been $100 if he'd got you :shifty:


Whilst I'm not certain (Frosty?) it should be 2+ marshals per point.

I think it should be two per point wherever possible but I don't think there is any MNZ requirement for a particular number of marshals at each point

[Pussy]

That was $50 well spent, would have been $100 if he'd got you :shifty:





It's nice to see that the beautiful loving relationship between you and scrivy is alive and well, kick! :niceone:

[scrivy]

It's nice to see that the beautiful loving relationship between you and scrivy is alive and well, kick! :niceone:

Heh, he calls himself a homophobe....... but was constantly texting me yesterday asking to stay here. Wanted brekkie with me this morning too.....
He's as bent as the paraparas!! I didn't let him stay either!!!!
Fag!!! :laugh:

[Kickaha]

Heh, he calls himself a homophobe....... but was constantly texting me yesterday asking to stay here. Wanted brekkie with me this morning too.....
He's as bent as the paraparas!! I didn't let him stay either!!!!
Fag!!! :laugh:

Couldn't be arsed driving that far, stayed at the Beautiful Motel Taihape instead and had a Mobil Pie for breakfast

[jellywrestler]

Mobil Pie for breakfast there were pies left? were you ahead of dave?

[Biggles08]

Always blow on the Pie......safer communities together.