ACT split?

[Skyryder]

I know that not so long ago the Douglas faction in ACT tried to have Hide removed from the leadership.

It failed due to the personal intervention of Key who said get rid of Hide and our deal is off. I sorta found that strange at the time but just put it away for a rainy day.

Now this has cropped up

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3382781/Leader-warns-Acts-hardliners

The deal between ACT and the Nats seems to be a deal between Key and Hide and not between the National Party and ACT as such.

I'm not going into the politics of this as I have no idea of what is going on suffice to say that with the attempted overthrow of Hide by Douglas and Hides comments, from the article, one can only come to the conclusion that there is some serious disquet within ACT'S ranks.


Skyryder

[p.dath]

I know that not so long ago the Douglas faction in ACT tried to have Hide removed from the leadership.

It failed due to the personal intervention of Key who said get rid of Hide and our deal is off. I sorta found that strange at the time but just put it away for a rainy day.

Now this has cropped up

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3382781/Leader-warns-Acts-hardliners

The deal between ACT and the Nats seems to be a deal between Key and Hide and not between the National Party and ACT as such.

I'm not going into the politics of this as I have no idea of what is going on suffice to say that with the attempted overthrow of Hide by Douglas and Hides comments, from the article, one can only come to the conclusion that there is some serious disquet within ACT'S ranks.


Skyryder

Which leads to the upcoming two refendums, should we keep MMP, and secondly (if so), should we fine tune it?

The example being, NZ First got more votes than ACT, but has no seats in parliament while ACT has (is it 5 or 7?). This sometimes gives tiny parties far more power than they should.

[Mully]

The example being, NZ First got more votes than ACT, but has no seats in parliament while ACT has (is it 5 or 7?). This sometimes gives tiny parties far more power than they should.

I wondered about that for a while - the small partner in the MMP Governments has been able to wag the dog, so to speak.

Can't think of a way around that though.

[oldrider]

I wondered about that for a while - the small partner in the MMP Governments has been able to wag the dog, so to speak.

Can't think of a way around that though.

STV would probably be a better choice than MMP, greater accountability to the electorate, that would be a change!

[Mully]

STV would probably be a better choice than MMP, greater accountability to the electorate, that would be a change!

I must investigate that before the referendum.

[Tank]

I wondered about that for a while - the small partner in the MMP Governments has been able to wag the dog, so to speak.

Can't think of a way around that though.

Like the tail Winston Peters wagging the dog clarke and all of NZ.

[Latte]

I think if they got rid of Hide that would be the end of ACT. Hide/Epsom are the only reason they are here this time.

[puddytat]

Roger Douglas would have to be the most dangerous bloke you could possibly have on your team....I hope someone shoots him before he gets back into a position of power.(where's the praying emoticon?)

[pete376403]

Like the tail Winston Peters wagging the dog clarke and all of NZ.

Just like Winston wagging the national dog before that. Try not to let your dislike of labour get in the way of the facts.

[Pedrostt500]

Regardless of what sort of system you vote in the Pilocticians will rape it to suit them selves.

[oldrider]

Regardless of what sort of system you vote in the Pilocticians will rape it to suit them selves.

"True" but only because we let them get away with it!

You have a shit in the park, the first one's there are the flies, it's what they do!

Politicians are like the flies, it's what they have been wired for by nature, "they" can't help it but "we" can!

We can stop shitting in our own nest for a start! :shifty:

[Skyryder]

I must investigate that before the referendum.

Here's a start.

Shortly after the change to MMP ACT actively began a campaign to change the way local body elections were held. They were ‘terrified’ that the MMP would replace the FFP voting system that local body elections were held.
They have been more than successful

In 2007 STV is being used to elect members of these local authorities:
• Chatham Islands Council
• Dunedin City Council
• Kaipara District Council
• Kapiti Coast District Council
• Marlborough District Council
• Porirua City Council
• Thames-Coromandel District Council
• Wellington City Council
I know of no such referendum by ratepayers authorizing voting changes.
Single transferable vote equals multiple problems

By Bill Tieleman
STV [single transferable vote] is a system designed for political scientists and mathematicians, not voters....The local government elections were a disaster and an international embarrassment...
-- New Zealand National Party MP Nick Smith, November 3, 200


STV is the preferred voting system that the ACT party supports and not without good reason.
Most people who have little knowledge of STV think that it is as a proportional voting system that delivers a parliament representative of the public vote. While this in the context of proportional voting is true what the proponents of STV fail to mention are the parameters in which the STV vote is held. I thought I would reiterate Smiths view again. STV [single transferable vote] is a system designed for political scientists and mathematicians, not voters....The local government elections were a disaster and an international embarrassment...

For example who knows anything about the ‘threshold,’ or setting the quota. Who know what quota system will be in use or for that matter the difference between the Droop quota and the Hare quota not too mention the Hare-Clark method. If you are interested this just do a Google. If you understand this just ask your self will the average voter?

As for counting the votes perhaps I’m just old fashioned. I still believe in the visual method and that way if there are any irregularities and disputes these can be rectified visually.

Not so with STV
Votes are counted using specially developed computer software the formulae involved are too complex for counting to be done by hand. The computer programme:
• Works out the quota needed by each candidate to be elected
• Keeps track of the preferences each candidate receives
• Calculates the result.
On the surface STV looks pretty good in that it does away with the list seats which many see as wrong but it is the list seats that make MMP fair. The result is a reflection of the total votes cast. I don’t deny that there are problems but this more human that the system of MMP itself. Remember how long Winston kept the country in doubt as to what party he would support.


With STV the count is too complex for manual counting as logarithms are used to calculate the preferred vote.

There are many and varied types of STV that are based on the counting method. Here’s some examples on this. Just take a look at the complexity of this and if you think this is a good idea.

3 Counting the votes
• 3.1 Surplus re-allocation
o 3.1.1 Randomisation
• 3.2 Initial surplus
o 3.2.1 Hare method
o 3.2.2 Cincinnati method
o 3.2.3 Hare-Clark method
o 3.2.4 Gregory method
• 3.3 Subsequent surplus
o 3.3.1 Meek's method
o 3.3.2 Warren's method
o 3.3.3 The Wright System
• 3.4 Distribution of excluded candidate preferences
o 3.4.1 Single transaction
o 3.4.2 Segmentation
 3.4.2.1 Aggregated primary vote and value based segmentation
 3.4.2.2 FIFO (First In First Out)
o 3.4.3 Reiterative count
• 3.5 Bulk exclusions
o 3.5.1 Quota Breakpoint
o 3.5.2 Running Breakpoint
o 3.5.3 Group Breakpoint
o 3.5.4 Applied Breakpoint


STV ? Reminds me of sexually transmitted disease and should be treated in the same. manner. Have nothing to do with it.

Skyryder

[Robert Taylor]

I wondered about that for a while - the small partner in the MMP Governments has been able to wag the dog, so to speak.

Can't think of a way around that though.

There is a way round that, bring back FPP and rearrange the boundaries so it heavily favours the National party, job done.

[SPman]

There is a way round that, bring back FPP and rearrange the boundaries so it heavily favours the National party, job done.
Only if you have a clean out of the dead wood in the Nats (like, most of the current crop of MP's for a starter), and liquidate Hide, Douglas and all members of the Business Round Table.
Hide, is a nasty hypocritcal piece of work, who is trialing schemes for selling off all public assets, with his coup over the Auckland Super City, which will strip away all public representation with secretly appointed boards, responsible to no one, yet all their decisions have to be carried out and paid for by the elected council! Hide and his cronies deserve a bullet for this travesty and the sooner ACT disintegrate, the better

[Robert Taylor]

Only if you have a clean out of the dead wood in the Nats (like, most of the current crop of MP's for a starter), and liquidate Hide, Douglas and all members of the Business Round Table.
Hide, is a nasty hypocritcal piece of work, who is trialing schemes for selling off all public assets, with his coup over the Auckland Super City, which will strip away all public representation with secretly appointed boards, responsible to no one, yet all their decisions have to be carried out and paid for by the elected council! Hide and his cronies deserve a bullet for this travesty and the sooner ACT disintegrate, the better

Bring back Jack Marshall, Brian Talboys, Duncan McIntyre etc....

[Ronin]

I wondered about that for a while - the small partner in the MMP Governments has been able to wag the dog, so to speak.

Can't think of a way around that though.

It is more of a statistical aberration. Traditionally aberrations are taken out the back and shot.

Ohhhh Rodney....

[SPman]

Bring back Jack Marshall, Brian Talboys, Duncan McIntyre etc....
"Gentleman" Jack...who was handy with the political stiletto, "Brian the Tallboy wonder" and Duncan, et al, at least had an awareness of the social implications of their actions on the Nation as a whole and were rather more centrist than the current mob. Sliding money and perks to your mates was a much more subtle and hush hush procedure, in those days.......in fact, Jack, would have knifed Rodney and co in the political back, within months of taking office......

[pete376403]

But Key cannot afford to get rid of, or allow anyone else to get rid of Hide, becuase that would get rid of all the ACT seats, leaving the moari party to become the dog wagger