111 system report

[Lou Girardin]

It turned out pretty damning really. It's quite amazing what a truly independant enquiry can uncover.
Ill trained and over worked staff. Patrols actively avoiding 111 calls. Generally a complete mess.
And there's Rob saying he accepts full responsibilty, no sign of a resignation though. It appears that losing the confidence of nearly half the population is not enough for him, He wants to know if he has the confidence of the Govt.
You can almost see the grip of his fingernails on that $400,000 salary.
What with him and Peter Doone, it seems that honour, integrity and self-respect are sadly lacking in the higher echelons of the Police. I guess we shouldn't be surprised when the same traits are lacking in many of the lower ranks too.
Hopefully this may be the start of a real shake up for them, but I won't hold my breath.

[Quasievil]

Bloody disgraceful I think, with the taxes we pay in this country our police force should be second to none.

maybe we dont need more police maybe we just need the ones we got to do the work, I dunno but if that report is accurate its a very bad reflection on the police force.

I personally have alot of faith in them from the basis that all my dealings have been very good, ie a prowler at moms place, I whipped out raced across hammy took 8 mins at 10.00 pm I race down the street to see a cop car blocking exits turned into moms street and dogs and another car already there out looking. Mom rung the cops after I told her to so reaction time for the police less than 5 mins bloody great, other situations I have found them great also

On top of all this I have found them exceptionally responsive on the two tickets I have got for 114 Kmph:yes:

[marty]

It turned out pretty damning really. It's quite amazing what a truly independant enquiry can uncover.
Ill trained and over worked staff. Patrols actively avoiding 111 calls. Generally a complete mess.
And there's Rob saying he accepts full responsibilty, no sign of a resignation though. It appears that losing the confidence of nearly half the population is not enough for him, He wants to know if he has the confidence of the Govt.
You can almost see the grip of his fingernails on that $400,000 salary.
What with him and Peter Doone, it seems that honour, integrity and self-respect are sadly lacking in the higher echelons of the Police. I guess we shouldn't be surprised when the same traits are lacking in many of the lower ranks too.
Hopefully this may be the start of a real shake up for them, but I won't hold my breath.

the day comms moved to auckland there were many of us saying that it wouldn't work. those of us who have lots of comms experience know the value of street experience, local knowledge, and system experience, and unfortunately, you just can't get that out of a WINZ sourced gap filler.

[scumdog]

Yeo, can't be god when the Ch-ch Comms operator can't tell you who owns a vehicle on front of you 'cos she's yaking a 111 call from Hamilton...

And Lou, easy on casting asperstions on lower ranks so readily, I'm one and I would hope that comment was not aimed at me 'cos in that case you're wrong big-time :Pokey:

[Lou Girardin]

Yeo, can't be god when the Ch-ch Comms operator can't tell you who owns a vehicle on front of you 'cos she's yaking a 111 call from Hamilton...

And Lou, easy on casting asperstions on lower ranks so readily, I'm one and I would hope that comment was not aimed at me 'cos in that case you're wrong big-time :Pokey:

No, Scumdog it's clear from your posts and net manner that you're OK. Even though you do write tickets for 11 over (everybody's allowed one flaw) it's the wankers like the waste of space that just got charged for stealing some P and giving it to his 'associates". I always thought it was gang members that had 'associates".

[spudchucka]

And there's Rob saying he accepts full responsibilty, no sign of a resignation though.Go easy on him! He's done what any Kiwi boss would have done in the circumstances....... He's formed a committee....... that'l fix it!


Hopefully this may be the start of a real shake up for them, but I won't hold my breath.Frontline police and the police association have been asking for a shake-up for years. For some reason they don't believe us though and in the end it takes a tradgedy and a report from an Aussie cop before they will listen to reason.

[spudchucka]

Bloody disgraceful I think, with the taxes we pay in this country our police force should be second to none.
The police budget amounts to around 2% of Govt spending. I agree with what you are saying but the reality is that the Govt simply does not invest any more than they absolutely have to into policing. They have the money but they won't spend it on essential services like police.

[madboy]

... it's an governmental and organisational issue. The Govt don't cough up the money unless the 5-0 gather revenue (cue impromtu slanging of HP and traffic enforcement in general). So the poor frontline guys have to be little nazis cos its their job. And whether I agree with my boss or not, I do my job as he/she tells me to - so do the frontline 5-0.

So the blame moves up the tree. Is the Police management doing a good job? Well it doesn't look like it to me. Now is that their responsibility or are they simply the messengers? Or are they just damn happy they're earning good money and so they'll keep on keeping on as long as they can until they retire, perf or get caught out for something trivial they did 25yrs ago?? You tell me.

But until then, it's the poor bastards on the frontline who'll unfairly cop it cos everybody subscribes to the "shoot the messenger" syndrome...

Of course, my comments of reason above will be completely forgotten the next time one of those f***ing nazi bastards try and pull me for something trivial like 197km/h in a 50 zone!!

[crazylittleshit]

The police have turned into tax collectors not police.
They should be protecting the general public in more ways then one.
Quality of life being one I would like to walk down the street and feel safe rather, then know that if I go 5km over the speed limit I will be fined.

[spudchucka]

The police have turned into tax collectors not police.
They should be protecting the general public in more ways then one.
Quality of life being one I would like to walk down the street and feel safe rather, then know that if I go 5km over the speed limit I will be fined.
I thought somebody that worked for the police would have a more insightfull opinion of their employers.

Or don't you remember this private troll......



Private Message: Re: ha

10th January 2005, 21:39


just wondering what department your in I work with the police down here in wellington.

I thought I may know you.





So do you work for the police or are you full of shit as I suspect?

[Ixion]

111 is for police, fire and ambo. If there are so many problems with the 111 service why haven't we heard of them affecting fire or ambo.

Or does the 111 service "split up" and the problem is with the police split ?

[Lou Girardin]

I thought somebody that worked for the police would have a more insightfull opinion of their employers.

Or don't you remember this private troll......




So do you work for the police or are you full of shit as I suspect?

There's a few on this site that work for the Police, mostly involuntarily.

[Lias]

I could be wrong but I believe it splits up.. You hit 1 for police, 2 for fire, 3 for ambulance or whatever (Pretty sure this is computerized now, used to be a telescum operator) and then get transferred to the relevant call center.

[spudchucka]

There's a few on this site that work for the Police, mostly involuntarily.
Thats their choice Lou, there isn't anything involuntary about it.

[spudchucka]

111 is for police, fire and ambo. If there are so many problems with the 111 service why haven't we heard of them affecting fire or ambo.

Or does the 111 service "split up" and the problem is with the police split ?I can't speak for the other services and I have never worked at police comms so my knowledge may be limited. When you dial 111 the call initially gets picked up by Telecom who transfers you to the relevant service. If a call is transfered to a police comms centre and the call isn't picked up within a certain length of time, (30 seconds I think) then it is flicked back to Telecom who will transfer the call to another comms centre.

So if you have an emergency in Gore your call will be initially transfered to South Comms in Ch Ch. If South Comms don't answer the call you will be transfered to another comms centre, (Central in Wgtn or Northern in Auck).

The call taker will get the details from you and then transfer them back to the relevant comms centre for a unit to be despatched by radio. The call taker will have little or no knowledge of the area that the person is calling from, they may enter details incorrectly, which may then result in units getting sent to the wrong location. I've lost count of the amount of times I've been sent to a job, got there to find NOTHING happening only to be told eventually that the emergency was actually in another town. When the job makes it to a despatchers screen they will often be left to guess details or have to ring back the informant for more info due to incorrect information being recorded in the first place.

This all adds up to delays in getting people to the job.

The comms centres are badly understaffed. The fact that calls can't get through after only a few rings is evidence of this, there should always be enough call takers to answer every call within a few minutes. Even if they just get basic details and then prioritise the calls in a que it is better than having them not answered and bouncing around between Telecom and the three comms centres waiting to be picked up.

Its not always like this, most of the time the system copes reasonably well but it only takes one busy shift with mutiple incidents to send the system down the shitter.

Despatchers end up answering calls and calling back informants because the call taker has screwed up, which means cops calling on the radio are being told to "stand by I'm on the phone". Too bad if the cop was calling for urgent assistance!

I don't know what the work load is like at the comms centres for the other services but I know that the police system answers a phenominal amount of calls, many of them are total time wasters too. It would be interesting to see a comparison between the services comms centres!

Bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that the system has many flaws, front line police and the police association have been warning police bosses and Govt for years that the system would fail. The only difference is that most of us have been expecting it would be someone from our own ranks that would snuff it as a result of the systems failures.

Last thing I'll say is don't blame the staff at the comms centres, (except their bosses of course), they are generally all very good people and do an exceptional job in very difficult circumstances.

[scumdog]

Truth is Lou and others, do you think that Comms operators and Cops screw-up by choice?
No way, lack of resources etc grind you down and then a mistake nails you, if those that screwed up left because they screwed up then there would sweet eff all left to do the job.

Any counter -ideas????

[Storm]

On my personal experience, I'd have to agree with the thought that its those at the top of the tree that are doing the shafting. Unfortunatly, its just another sign of the country going downhill due to politicians and other numbskulls in charge of our tax money.

On a slightly different note, has the old chestnut of " should we separate the police into Traffic and Other Stuff dept's" been brought up lately at the decision making level ?

[MadDuck]

Well last week I got caught in a situation that required a call to 111. I got through to comms in Christchurch and I have nothing bad to say about how they (was a she by the way) handled the call. The local police turned up on my doorstep the next day having had the call from Christchurch.

It wasnt an emergency but there was nowhere else for me to go and I felt kinda bad about tying up a line in case someone was really in trouble. but where do we go when we are in that situation? The local cop shop closes at like 5pm.

They may handle hundreds of calls a day and maybe one or two get fucked up. Lets put it in perspective. If it was an easy job we would all be doing it!

[Ixion]

I think one very good recommendation in the report is establishing an intermediate "not an emergency but do need to speak to someone " number. At present apart from 111 you have to try to contact "the local police station" Anyone who's tried to do the latter will know how difficult it is - especially after "business hours"

*555 is theoretically along those lines, but I've been told that it actually achieves nothing .

[Lou Girardin]

*555 is theoretically along those lines, but I've been told that it actually achieves nothing .

It's actually a venting system for the chronically grumpy, more of a public mental health service.

[marty]

111 is for police, fire and ambo. If there are so many problems with the 111 service why haven't we heard of them affecting fire or ambo.

Or does the 111 service "split up" and the problem is with the police split ?

neither fire nor ambos have a requirement for 2 way chat, checks etc - they are dispatched the job, then it is up to the unit to deal with it. i wish some knockers could go to comms and see how snowed under the police communicators really are - with fire comms (in the same office as police) sitting back literally with their feet on the desk. how many fire 111 calls do you think come through in a day compared to police 111?

[Biff]

Across Europe (started in the UK) there's a national freephone number currently being introduced for non emergency calls. These calls are generally routed to your nearest open police station, or staff at the central control room not involved in taking routine emergency calls. It has been heralded an overwhelming success so far by all three primary emergency services.

I've sat in a fire control room and heard an operator take an emergency call (999 or 112 in the UK) from a lady complaining that a bird had been sitting on a power cable for "almost ten minutes". "That's what birds do madam", replied the operator. Apparently this kind of crap ties up so much control room operator’s time that 'real' emergencies are sometimes prevented from being responded to in a timely manner because idiots/mentally disturbed people hog the line.

[spudchucka]

Apparently this kind of crap ties up so much control room operator’s time that 'real' emergencies are sometimes prevented from being responded to in a timely manner because idiots/mentally disturbed people hog the line.
100% correct.

[idb]

Across Europe (started in the UK) there's a national freephone number currently being introduced for non emergency calls. These calls are generally routed to your nearest open police station, or staff at the central control room not involved in taking routine emergency calls. It has been heralded an overwhelming success so far by all three primary emergency services.

I've sat in a fire control room and heard an operator take an emergency call (999 or 112 in the UK) from a lady complaining that a bird had been sitting on a power cable for "almost ten minutes". "That's what birds do madam", replied the operator. Apparently this kind of crap ties up so much control room operator’s time that 'real' emergencies are sometimes prevented from being responded to in a timely manner because idiots/mentally disturbed people hog the line.
As much as I hate them, maybe the Police should try to get a reality show similar to Border Patrol or Airline off the ground based in the comms centre.
It may have the effect of shifting the public's negative focus from the folks at the coal face.

[Wolf]

from a lady complaining that a bird had been sitting on a power cable for "almost ten minutes". "That's what birds do madam", replied the operator.
It is precisely this irresponsible, and dare I say "glib", attitude that makes the call centres the inefficient messes they are. Clearly the operator should be sacked for not instantly calling out the nearest armed service to despatch a squad with rocket launchers to deal with the situation. :killingme

I wonder how many people actually do dial 111 and ask for the fire brigade to get their cat out of a tree, "thanks" to all those silly movies.

[Biff]

As much as I hate them, maybe the Police should try to get a reality show similar to Border Patrol or Airline off the ground based in the comms centre.


It'd have to have 'real' cops on it as well, responding to the emergencies, otherwise it'd get a wee bit boring just watching a few emergency calls coming in every now and then.

Good idea though. It'd certainly give joe public a better understanding of the crap, stress and tears these folk go through.

[madboy]

As much as I hate them, maybe the Police should try to get a reality show similar to Border Patrol or Airline off the ground based in the comms centre.
It may have the effect of shifting the public's negative focus from the folks at the coal face.The logic behind that wouldn't necessarily sit with a human being's natural response to situations, which is to become irrational and illogical. People focus on the negative.

As I've prob said before in other threads, your average Jo Blow sees a cop when their house gets burgled or when they get a ticket. In case 1, they're pissed cos the cops were too busy to attend straight away, and in case 2 they were probably doing a speed that they thought was quite alright until Mr HP appeared over the horizon with his laser gun. Either way, not a positive image for Police. Very quickly that person will forget the reality TV that showed poor comms people tearing their hair out dealing with some nut job.

The people who do the stealing or the "serious" speeds don't give a toss about the cops anyway, so reality TV turns into educational TV.

In saying that - I'd watch it :D

[Lou Girardin]

Does it matter if comms is a crap/stressfull/boring, whatever job? They used to use cops that were no longer up to front line work or were injured. Whoever they use, they should be well trained and motivated. Using the above to justify inadequate service is pathetic.
It's a crucial life-saving job and the Police shouldn't be penny pinching in this area.
We don't see any signs of economising in the HP units, do we?

[MrMelon]

I thought somebody that worked for the police would have a more insightfull opinion of their employers.

Or don't you remember this private troll......

So do you work for the police or are you full of shit as I suspect?

He never claimed to work for the police, but his job involves working with the police on a fairly regular basis..

[drummer]

I thought somebody that worked for the police would have a more insightfull opinion of their employers.

Or don't you remember this private troll......




So do you work for the police or are you full of shit as I suspect?
Mate... you promote yorself as a policeman... and now you abuse people... you accused me of doing just that but can't back it up... where are you at?

[Lou Girardin]

It seems you have a new playmate Spud :bash: , now that we're the best of friends. :grouphug:

[Jeremy]

Across Europe (started in the UK) there's a national freephone number currently being introduced for non emergency calls. These calls are generally routed to your nearest open police station, or staff at the central control room not involved in taking routine emergency calls. It has been heralded an overwhelming success so far by all three primary emergency services.

I've sat in a fire control room and heard an operator take an emergency call (999 or 112 in the UK) from a lady complaining that a bird had been sitting on a power cable for "almost ten minutes". "That's what birds do madam", replied the operator. Apparently this kind of crap ties up so much control room operator’s time that 'real' emergencies are sometimes prevented from being responded to in a timely manner because idiots/mentally disturbed people hog the line.

Don't you get a nasty little fine for making useless calls to the emergency numbers?

[Ixion]

neither fire nor ambos have a requirement for 2 way chat, checks etc - they are dispatched the job, then it is up to the unit to deal with it. i wish some knockers could go to comms and see how snowed under the police communicators really are - with fire comms (in the same office as police) sitting back literally with their feet on the desk. how many fire 111 calls do you think come through in a day compared to police 111?
Surely if there are more police 111 calls than fire 111 calls (which I imagine there are), that just means that there need to be more police 111 oeprators than fire 111 operators? Are they actually separate operators - would it not be more sensible to have one set of operators handling all calls ? Often one will need more than one service anyway - so if that happens does the fire operator send the fire engine then pass the call over to an ambulance operator to send an ambo ?

[Ixion]

Don't you get a nasty little fine for making useless calls to the emergency numbers?

Question is though, what do you do if you have a situation that is not really an *emergency* but is more urgent than "come into the station tomorrow and report it" ? eg there's a car abandoned in the middle of the road with traffic having to dodge round it. There's a drunk pestering old ladies in the shopping centre . etc

[marty]

Surely if there are more police 111 calls than fire 111 calls (which I imagine there are), that just means that there need to be more police 111 oeprators than fire 111 operators? Are they actually separate operators - would it not be more sensible to have one set of operators handling all calls ? Often one will need more than one service anyway - so if that happens does the fire operator send the fire engine then pass the call over to an ambulance operator to send an ambo ?

therein lies the problem - (especially) since centralising comms, they just can't get enough experienced staff. the staff used to be split around the provinces - waikato, BOP, whangarei, and sworn staff were rostered thru the comms centre for each province, overseen by the station s/sgt. the good operators formed a core of trainers and stability, the young staff got a look at both sides of the desk when being rotated thru. with comms becoming a central business unit, staff are no longer roated thru, no born and bred aucklander really cares what is happening in kaitaia/taupo etc, no one wants to work night shift being abused and threatened over the phone for $14 an hour, can't go to the toilet without arranging someone to cover your terminal (not easy when there is no-one spare in the first place) can't eat/drink coffee at your desk, the list goes on.

there are smoe very good dispatchers at north comms, but they are only as good as the info that they receive. take this scenario - someone returns to the workforce - they were a shop assistant 15 years ago, and left to look after the kids for example - they have never had any dealings with the police. they see an inside sedentary job, pay is ok, good health plan. they become a call taker, taking police 111 calls. they have never seen anyone get beaten up by their drugged/drunk partner, never seen a car crash - they try their hardest, but the reality is that they just cannot process the correct/relevant information that is needed QUICKLY by the guys and girls on the street. they spend 5 minutes on the phone trying to extract information before even loading the job for the dispatcher to read, then the information may not be indepth enough.......

still - could be worse - in 1998-9 they were seriously looking at contracting the MELBOURNE POLICE call centre to take all calls for NZ - melbourne has a bigger population than all of NZ, so how hard could it be?

[spudchucka]

Mate... you promote yorself as a policeman... and now you abuse people... you accused me of doing just that but can't back it up... where are you at?
I didn't abuse anybody. Yorself will know when I abuse somebody, it will be quite obvious. This was not abuse. It was reminding Mr Shit about a private message troll he delivered to my inbox in which he claimed to work for the police and wanted me to tell him my name because he thought he might know me. When I replied and said that if he sent me his police ID number and his work extension then I would be happy to contact him for a chat...... funnily enough he never responded to that message.

So, back it up yourself drummer boy.

[spudchucka]

It seems you have a new playmate Spud :bash: , now that we're the best of friends. :grouphug:
Can the hugging shit, I'm not into public displays of affection. :nono:

[idb]

still - could be worse - in 1998-9 they were seriously looking at contracting the MELBOURNE POLICE call centre to take all calls for NZ - melbourne has a bigger population than all of NZ, so how hard could it be?
Yeah but India have all the experience in running overseas call centres......

[Pixie]

Go easy on him! He's done what any Kiwi boss would have done in the circumstances....... He's formed a committee....... that'l fix it!

Frontline police and the police association have been asking for a shake-up for years. For some reason they don't believe us though and in the end it takes a tradgedy and a report from an Aussie cop before they will listen to reason.
They haven't given any indications that they are going to listen.
You guys should stage a coup and run Robbingson and Hawkins out of town on a rail.

[Pixie]

Well last week I got caught in a situation that required a call to 111. I got through to comms in Christchurch and I have nothing bad to say about how they (was a she by the way) handled the call. The local police turned up on my doorstep the next day having had the call from Christchurch.

It wasnt an emergency but there was nowhere else for me to go and I felt kinda bad about tying up a line in case someone was really in trouble. but where do we go when we are in that situation? The local cop shop closes at like 5pm.

They may handle hundreds of calls a day and maybe one or two get fucked up. Lets put it in perspective. If it was an easy job we would all be doing it!
How difficult can taking details and directing support to the correct location,all with recorded back up be?
especially if someone's life is at stake.
I have taken calls in my job and directed other field service engineers to the right hospital lab.I never, repeat,never sent a Mr Whippy van to a cemetary by mistake. :no:

[spudchucka]

They haven't given any indications that they are going to listen.
You guys should stage a coup and run Robbingson and Hawkins out of town on a rail.I don't think they have any choice but to listen.
http://www.police.govt.nz/resources/2005/comm-centres-review/

Rob's initial response to the report.
http://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/1911.php

I hope they get the same bloke to do a review of front line police resources while they have him here.

[drummer]

I didn't abuse anybody. Yorself will know when I abuse somebody, it will be quite obvious. This was not abuse. It was reminding Mr Shit about a private message troll he delivered to my inbox in which he claimed to work for the police and wanted me to tell him my name because he thought he might know me. When I replied and said that if he sent me his police ID number and his work extension then I would be happy to contact him for a chat...... funnily enough he never responded to that message.

So, back it up yourself drummer boy.
Calling someone full of shit Spud ole boy is abuse...

[scumdog]

Calling someone full of shit Spud ole boy is abuse...

Maybe if you gave Spuddy your QID and ext.no. he could call you and you could tell him that in person???.....

[Biff]

Don't you get a nasty little fine for making useless calls to the emergency numbers?

If it's a malicious call/false alarm yes. If they trace you that is. The problem is that many of these false call outs are made from public phone boxes, or pay as you go mobiles. In the UK the older pay as you go mobiles aren't even registered to an individual, you could just walk into a shop and buy one without filling out any paper work. A great tool for organised crime gangs.

[marty]

pretty much what i said really...




http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10125445

[Paul in NZ]

Speaking as someone that actually (yes I did used to work for a living) constructed a significant portion of the current system....

There are some remarkable technologies that could be utilised to build a stunning system without bankrupting the country...

Whats stopping this is ... Well lets just say people have their little empires and refuse to work together on anything sensible like a standardised platform across all the emergency services. And its NOT just the police... If the police say blue the fire guys say red and ambo guys want white... The CD guys are not sure and the coastguard thinks they should send up a flare...

It's a combination of volunteers wondering how the hell they could afford it and petty tyrants not wanting to loose control... Pretty much the free market model in all it's glory...

IMHO The govt needs to step in and legislate. Build a series of state of the art call centres with situation maps, mapping software, GPS vehicle location indicators, touch screens auto recording (oh you name it!)

But you just TRY and find anyone to listen to your proposal... As a commercial organisation we just would not bother any more and the police still quake in the shadow of incis...

[spudchucka]

Calling someone full of shit Spud ole boy is abuse...
Wrong again old chap. I asked him if he was full of shit and said that I suspected that he was. Anyway if something or somebody is full of shit then calling it / them full of shit is simple honesty.

If I called you for instance, a low life, bottom dwelling, scum sucking, inbred, six fingered banjo playing piece of shit, then you could say you had been abused. :msn-wink:

Just for your future reference so you don't make the same silly mistake again.

[Biff]

I'm with you there on this one Paul. At the risk of harping on about how better things are in other countries - I spent nearly ten years working with all three primary emergency services in the UK and across Europe, working on upgrading their respective radio systems and communications centres. Almost of them have leading edge kit. I've visited one major police control centre here, and I must say I was amazed how antiquated and basic some of their command and control gear is in comparison.

If the govt is ever serious about improving the level of service provided by the emergency services here it must invest in new control room technology.

The police (Welly and Auckland to start with) are just about to embark on a procurement phase for a new radio system. But without an effective dispatch centre and (I guess, although I have no first hand experience/evidence) control room operator training then it's a case of 'fur coat no knickers'.

[jaybee180]

I've worked for the Police for thirteen years and last year transferred up to the Comms Centre in Auckland. Thinking that I would be a benefit to them with the experience I've had (I don't know about other non sworn - but there's not a lot I haven't seen, heard, or dealt with in my time). BUT I lasted 6 months before I called it quits and transferred out of there. NO ONE, BUT NO ONE, knows what it's like up there until you've had to do it. I have never been abused more, sworn at more, over worked (night shift with five call takers working on a Friday night to cover most of the north island) and underpaid and unappreciated in all of my working career.

It's a serious problem and no one is getting value for money, not the public, not the front line cops and not the employees. But don't throw dirt at the workers up there. They honestly give it their best shot but work under amazing conditions. And Marty is right (?) most of the staff there have never had to deal with the situations that they now have to face every shift. I had one guy working with me who really didn't believe that men beat up their partners!!!!

So nows the opportunity for the public (that's you guys) to demand that the government do what they have been put in power to do - and that is serve us. The staff have been asking for it for years. Let's see that it happens and doesn't end up with anyone being killed.

[spudchucka]

Good on ya Jaybee.

[Lou Girardin]

So nows the opportunity for the public (that's you guys) to demand that the government do what they have been put in power to do - and that is serve us. The staff have been asking for it for years. Let's see that it happens and doesn't end up with anyone being killed.

We have been and someone has.

[Lou Girardin]

I don't think they have any choice but to listen.
http://www.police.govt.nz/resources/2005/comm-centres-review/

Rob's initial response to the report.
http://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/1911.php

I hope they get the same bloke to do a review of front line police resources while they have him here.

Good old Rob, spout platitudes, set up a committee, sorry kometi, and hope it all dies down long enough for him to collect $820,000 until his contract's up.
Then again, what can you expect from the man who promoted Clint Rickards.

[scumdog]

We have been and someone has.

Who got killed??

And your signature is a lie - look at that crash involving boy-racers this weekend, a lot of speed, a lot of people involve and he didn't kill anyone!!!

[Lou Girardin]

Who got killed??

And your signature is a lie - look at that crash involving boy-racers this weekend, a lot of speed, a lot of people involve and he didn't kill anyone!!!

OK pedant, Ireana Asher may not be dead, but the odds are slim.

He couldn't have been very good at it, when he gets back on the road he can try again till he gets it right.
What puzzled me about the boy-racer crash though, if there were over 200 people gathered to watch these slack-jawed retards, didn't anyone call the cops? Or if they did, why didn't the cops close the wankers down.

[scumdog]

OK pedant, Ireana Asher may not be dead, but the odds are slim.

He couldn't have been very good at it, when he gets back on the road he can try again till he gets it right.
What puzzled me about the boy-racer crash though, if there were over 200 people gathered to watch these slack-jawed retards, didn't anyone call the cops? Or if they did, why didn't the cops close the wankers down.

Simple fact is Lou that these 'slack-jawed retards' organise (I suppose you could call it that) these gatherings at short notice via txt etc and the last thing they wanted was to be seen to be spoken to by the cops, even if it was their 'mates' lying hurt, oh yeah, they're all so 'one for all and all for one NOT!!! It's all about me me and how the world owes me a living. :mad:

The public watch too many episodes of Sopranos so THEY don't want to risk a drive-by shooting by dobbing in the twats. :no:

Amazing how it goes "yeah man, we don't give a shit about the cops, they're all wankers...." but hoo-boy, when the cops hove into sight all you could hear was slamming doors and revving engines as our slack-jawed heros vanished into the sunset. :D

[drummer]

Who got killed??

And your signature is a lie - look at that crash involving boy-racers this weekend, a lot of speed, a lot of people involve and he didn't kill anyone!!!
Speed definately killed that young boy down Toke... and could have easily killed many in east Tamaki but they were lucky. However, the speeds involved were dangerous in those situations... where were the police? They knew what went on for example in East Tamaki... on the other hand I saw two police cars specifically patrolling unmanned miles of witches hats on Sate Highway one between Meremere and Huntly... and countless others on the road as well. Both police on the roadworks were doing a roaring trade. That was pure revenue collecting... whilst the previous night no police were at a known boy racer spot. OK... would the police here please explain the logic behind this apparent misuse of resources.

[scumdog]

Hooboy, a troll but okay I'll bite.

Revenue gathering huh? collecting money from people that had done NOTHING wrong but just happened to be there??

Or some people were breaking various laws but despite that there should be NO penalties let alone (Heaven forbid) a monetary one??

You got in gospel that the Police KNEW what was going on in Tamaki Drive - at THAT particular time???

The 'speeds involved were dangerous in those situations' ??? that's a lie, nobody on this site believes speed is EVER dangerous, right guys???

Yep, ya got me there squire, can't explain any of it :wait:

[Lou Girardin]

Hooboy, a troll but okay I'll bite.

Revenue gathering huh? collecting money from people that had done NOTHING wrong but just happened to be there??

Or some people were breaking various laws but despite that there should be NO penalties let alone (Heaven forbid) a monetary one??

You got in gospel that the Police KNEW what was going on in Tamaki Drive - at THAT particular time???

The 'speeds involved were dangerous in those situations' ??? that's a lie, nobody on this site believes speed is EVER dangerous, right guys???

Yep, ya got me there squire, can't explain any of it :wait:

Maybe some breaches of the law are more serious than others and require different actions in response.
I think it's called discretion.

[Paul in NZ]

Speed definately killed that young boy down Toke... and could have easily killed many in east Tamaki but they were lucky. However, the speeds involved were dangerous in those situations... where were the police? They knew what went on for example in East Tamaki... on the other hand I saw two police cars specifically patrolling unmanned miles of witches hats on Sate Highway one between Meremere and Huntly... and countless others on the road as well. Both police on the roadworks were doing a roaring trade. That was pure revenue collecting... whilst the previous night no police were at a known boy racer spot. OK... would the police here please explain the logic behind this apparent misuse of resources.

I think it is pretty obvious from certain other threads currently burning up the site that people don't have the ability to exercise discretion themselves and if left to their own resources with fuel and a method of igniting it will soon produce causualties...

Funnily enough we all (as a society) think having controls on this oh too human behaviour is generally a good idea right up until it impacts on us personally and then it's horribly unfair...

Boy racers, like certain groups of motorcyclists don't stick and advert in the paper informing all law breakers to gether at a certain sport for a bit of public tom foolery... It's a bloody lottery..

Stop blaming the police for organised acts of mass stupidity in others unless you are prepared to fund our own personal police baby sitter. It's a flaw in the 'system' thats there to give us the freedom we crave but is exploited by idiots.

Cheers

[scumdog]

Maybe some breaches of the law are more serious than others and require different actions in response.
I think it's called discretion.


I'm not talking about discretion - I'm talking about claims of 'revenue gathering' as in issuing monetary penalties for no particular reason - must be a north of North Island thing 'cos it hasn't ever happened to me yet.

(If I said :"O.K. you were doing 124kph but theres not much traffic so I'll let you off with just a 114, it's save you about $40 in cash and 15 demerits" would that be discretion?? A few would say yes but also a few would say "Ya dropped my speed 10kph, why not drop it right down to 100kph and let me off" :whistle:
('Course could do that with drink-driving too "Yes sir, we'll say you blew a reading of 395 instead of 425 seeing as there was not much traffic.....") :msn-wink:

To most discretion means "let off scot-free"

BTW Has anybody here ever really taken much notice of a 'warning' and never offended again or is a warning a kind of lucky break before the next ticket??

[Lou Girardin]

I always took it to be a ticket or warning, I never reduced the speed as a discount. Because then you cannot say under oath you checked them at the discounted speed.
What's viewed as revenue collecting are actions that seem intended for that result only, such as targeting temp speed limits when there isn't a good reason to do so. Or having a laser trap in the MT Victoria tunnel. Or issueing tickets for 11 over on an empty Desert Rd with only you and the cop on the road.
I guess the reality is that the change in Police tactics 5-6 years ago co-incided with the charges of revenue collecting.

[scumdog]

I always took it to be a ticket or warning, I never reduced the speed as a discount. Because then you cannot say under oath you checked them at the discounted speed.
What's viewed as revenue collecting are actions that seem intended for that result only, such as targeting temp speed limits when there isn't a good reason to do so. Or having a laser trap in the MT Victoria tunnel. Or issueing tickets for 11 over on an empty Desert Rd with only you and the cop on the road.
I guess the reality is that the change in Police tactics 5-6 years ago co-incided with the charges of revenue collecting.

Just do as the signs say and no problem,(it won't make your journey THAT much longer) - don't, then take your chance.

Ah well, we'll just have to differ.

I'll let you know next time I get pulled over whether I got a warning or a ticket.
Of course with cameras theres no such thing as discretion but again I'll let you know when I get my first speed camera ticket. (Yes even in a 'work' car we have to pay the camera ticket UNLESS we can prove 'urgent job' or 'pursuit' - and no, we don't have a plan that shows all the functioning cameras)

[Lou Girardin]

Well I'm damn sure that if I was in the job and got pinged, I'd be renegotiating my non-taxable benefit package.

[drummer]

Just do as the signs say and no problem,(it won't make your journey THAT much longer) - don't, then take your chance.

Ah well, we'll just have to differ.

I'll let you know next time I get pulled over whether I got a warning or a ticket.
Of course with cameras theres no such thing as discretion but again I'll let you know when I get my first speed camera ticket. (Yes even in a 'work' car we have to pay the camera ticket UNLESS we can prove 'urgent job' or 'pursuit' - and no, we don't have a plan that shows all the functioning cameras)
You miss the point entirely... police resources should be directed towards areas of most need not where the revenue is the highest and easiest to obtain. The "boy racer" who knocked over the people at East tam was at a KNOWN hotspot for illegal drag racing... If it is known... where are the police?

[drummer]

So nows the opportunity for the public (that's you guys) to demand that the government do what they have been put in power to do - and that is serve us. The staff have been asking for it for years. Let's see that it happens and doesn't end up with anyone being killed.i agree totally... and apparently the current Labour government thinks that throwing a few mil will fix it... what a joke!

[drummer]

Stop blaming the police for organised acts of mass stupidity in others unless you are prepared to fund our own personal police baby sitter. It's a flaw in the 'system' thats there to give us the freedom we crave but is exploited by idiots.CheersI don't call the police ignoring a known boy racer spot that sees regular acts of stupidity a falw... I call it being under esourced and underfunded by a Government that couldn't give a monkeys about it. The same one that makes us riders pay substantually more in rego costs than drivers of cars.

[drummer]

Wrong again old chap. I asked him if he was full of shit and said that I suspected that he was. Anyway if something or somebody is full of shit then calling it / them full of shit is simple honesty.

If I called you for instance, a low life, bottom dwelling, scum sucking, inbred, six fingered banjo playing piece of shit, then you could say you had been abused. :msn-wink:

Just for your future reference so you don't make the same silly mistake again.yeah... you are right. :niceone:

[scumdog]

You miss the point entirely... police resources should be directed towards areas of most need not where the revenue is the highest and easiest to obtain. The "boy racer" who knocked over the people at East tam was at a KNOWN hotspot for illegal drag racing... If it is known... where are the police?

IF the police HAD turned up at a 'known hot spot' two or three things would have happened;
(1) the br types would have arrived, seen the cops and gone to another spot.
(2) if the cops were hanging around the public would want to know what they were doing wasting time in a place where nothing was happening.
(3)if they arrived after the wanking ('racing') had started and dished out tickets some bleeding heart would have accused them of revenue gathering and would want to know why they couldn't be 'warned' or weaker yet, just asked to move on. (see number (1) above)

Been through all those scenarios that often those who have not arrive at a simple solution to, if these people are that clever why are THEY not running the country????

And once again, the so-called 'revenue gathering' would not occur if drivers/riders were not so stupid/lacsadasical (sp?) about their driving/riding and/or decide to ignore rules/signs etc.

[scumdog]

"Police processed 18 drink-driver in the weekend in Dunedin, most of them ynder 25 years of age with the highest being 1005mcg from a 20 year old male" from todays ODT.

Are THESE cops revenue gathering? after all most othese people were just driving along 'minding their business and doing nothing wrong when they got pulled over'
And it'll net about $8,000 at minimum.

[Lou Girardin]

"Police processed 18 drink-driver in the weekend in Dunedin, most of them ynder 25 years of age with the highest being 1005mcg from a 20 year old male" from todays ODT.

Are THESE cops revenue gathering? after all most othese people were just driving along 'minding their business and doing nothing wrong when they got pulled over'
And it'll net about $8,000 at minimum.

I don't recall anyone referring to EBA checkpoints as revenue gathering. Sure, some if the timing of these is plain stupidity, but generally they have public support.
As for the boy-racer thing, why aren't operations mounted to target these creeps? Things like blocking both ends of the road they're on after a period of surveillance to identify the main offenders and turning over all the shitboxes caught in the trap. I don't think there'll be a lot of public dismay about it, far less than some for of the speed traps I've seen. It doesn't have to be done constantly, but some short sharp shocks will have an effect.

[scumdog]

I don't recall anyone referring to EBA checkpoints as revenue gathering. Sure, some if the timing of these is plain stupidity, but generally they have public support.
As for the boy-racer thing, why aren't operations mounted to target these creeps? Things like blocking both ends of the road they're on after a period of surveillance to identify the main offenders and turning over all the shitboxes caught in the trap. I don't think there'll be a lot of public dismay about it, far less than some for of the speed traps I've seen. It doesn't have to be done constantly, but some short sharp shocks will have an effect.

I'm trying to goad a comment as to why EBA (not necessarily checkpoints) is not seen as 'infringing rights' of those that think they were doing nothing wrong when they got pulled over and picked up for EBA. (AND also why, given the amount of money collected from each person convicted, it is NOT seen as revenue gathering)
Re your other comment, see (1)(2)&(3) on my post earlier, - AND my earlier comments on txting between those at wanking ('street racing'), VERY hard to beat. (Chopper might help but generally they have 'outposts' that txt the alarm on impending police arrival.)

[Paul in NZ]

I don't call the police ignoring a known boy racer spot that sees regular acts of stupidity a falw... I call it being under esourced and underfunded by a Government that couldn't give a monkeys about it. The same one that makes us riders pay substantually more in rego costs than drivers of cars.

A known spot? Known by whom? It's the sort of shadow fact people say after the event or make up to give their news story more impact.

It's undoubtably a spot they use inside a wider area. It's also a spot a lot of other people use too..

It's a bit like saying the "Wiararapa is a know spot where motorcyclists break the law". While that is a true statement it's also a little harder stopping this behaviour than just know roughly where people are.

The boy racers have every bit as good a comms system as the police. Stop them in one place and they just go some place else... Why blame the police because they don't have the resources to stop idiots being idiots. No one does...

[T.I.E]

The police budget amounts to around 2% of Govt spending. I agree with what you are saying but the reality is that the Govt simply does not invest any more than they absolutely have to into policing. They have the money but they won't spend it on essential services like police.

only %2 in given to the police by the govt?
thats why we always see them dishes out tickets. revenue collecting?
to make up for what the govt won't give out.
got to make money somewhere.

i miss the old country police, riding around on a farm bike no helmet licence or rego on public roads. they used to pull me over tell me off almost boot my ass, smile have a catch up then tell me to piss off and never want to see me again. that was untill next week.

i had respect for them then. and i would go out of my way to help them. the community was excellent.

now its licenec fine, don't care who you are. doing there job.

they lack passion for what they do, and for the people.

its a way of life not a boring job. what happened to the police of today.

[scumdog]

only %2 in given to the police by the govt?
thats why we always see them dishes out tickets. revenue collecting?
to make up for what the govt won't give out.
got to make money somewhere.

i miss the old country police, riding around on a farm bike no helmet licence or rego on public roads. they used to pull me over tell me off almost boot my ass, smile have a catch up then tell me to piss off and never want to see me again. that was untill next week.

i had respect for them then. and i would go out of my way to help them. the community was excellent.

now its licenec fine, don't care who you are. doing there job.

they lack passion for what they do, and for the people.

its a way of life not a boring job. what happened to the police of today.

So all those 'warnings' got nowhere, never got throught to you??

I guess a couple of tickets after the first warning might have made the difference, I rest my case.

The gov't doesn't really care about YOU if you're dumb enough not to wear a helmet and split your silly skull, all they care about is the enormous amount of money it will cost to keep you alive and/or rehabilitate you back into the work (tax-paying) force. (i.e. Like the head injuries on that troublesome girl on TV last night that was involved in a dumb-arsed speed related crash that killed the driver and left her not only a a vege but a pregnant one who has now given birth to a fatherless child - how much do you think that little episode cost the country - both emotionally and financially?? - THAT'S what the Govt care about)

[drummer]

"Police processed 18 drink-driver in the weekend in Dunedin, most of them ynder 25 years of age with the highest being 1005mcg from a 20 year old male" from todays ODT.

Are THESE cops revenue gathering? after all most othese people were just driving along 'minding their business and doing nothing wrong when they got pulled over'
And it'll net about $8,000 at minimum.
No... they were not and they were doing a fine job.

perhaps the police could raid the known spots in plain clothes as they did with Beaumont Street in Auckland in the 70's.

[Lou Girardin]

So all those 'warnings' got nowhere, never got throught to you??

I guess a couple of tickets after the first warning might have made the difference, I rest my case.

The gov't doesn't really care about YOU if you're dumb enough not to wear a helmet and split your silly skull, all they care about is the enormous amount of money it will cost to keep you alive and/or rehabilitate you back into the work (tax-paying) force. (i.e. Like the head injuries on that troublesome girl on TV last night that was involved in a dumb-arsed speed related crash that killed the driver and left her not only a a vege but a pregnant one who has now given birth to a fatherless child - how much do you think that little episode cost the country - both emotionally and financially?? - THAT'S what the Govt care about)


If they REALLY cared they'd spend money on proven safety measures, not lame adverts.
BTW breath/blood alcohol testing does infringe your right against self-incrimination. That's been forgotten though hasn't it?
And I can't help thinking that the cops must have more sophisticated surveillance techniques than cellphones and text messages.

[Ixion]

I'm trying to goad a comment as to why EBA (not necessarily checkpoints) is not seen as 'infringing rights' of those that think they were doing nothing wrong when they got pulled over and picked up for EBA. (AND also why, given the amount of money collected from each person convicted, it is NOT seen as revenue gathering)
Re your other comment, see (1)(2)&(3) on my post earlier, - AND my earlier comments on txting between those at wanking ('street racing'), VERY hard to beat. (Chopper might help but generally they have 'outposts' that txt the alarm on impending police arrival.)

The reason is that the level set for EBA is in general seen to be reasonable . If the level was set at say 50 instead of the present 400 (or whatever the numbers are, that ratio, a level where one drink hours ago could put you over) then people would complain.

Rightly or wrongly people don't perceive that 61kph in a 50 zone is necessarily dangerous. If the police only mounted speed camera ops in known dangerous areas, by schools etc then there would be less opposition.

And it is very easy to exceed the speed limit quite accidentally. How many of us have glanced at the speedo and thought "Shit, I'm way over the limit". It's harder to accidentally get drunk.

[Lou Girardin]

And it is very easy to exceed the speed limit quite accidentally. How many of us have glanced at the speedo and thought "Shit, I'm way over the limit". It's harder to accidentally get drunk.

I ALWAYS 'accidentally' get drunk. Never mean to, it's that fatal roader that does it.

[Ixion]

I ALWAYS 'accidentally' get drunk. Never mean to, it's that fatal roader that does it.

Well I never actually *intend* to either !. But it's kind of hard to drink a bevvy without realising it. I'd have a lot more sympathy myself with someone who said "I didn't realise I was doing 61, it was downhill and I didn't notice" than someone who said "I never realised I was drinking so much".

Personally I've found that normal social drinking/drinks with dinner you pass the testing thing OK. You'd have to be knocking it back hard to fail.

Probably should note that I never drink when I'm going out on the bike. First thing affected by grog is balance !

[scumdog]

If they REALLY cared they'd spend money on proven safety measures, not lame adverts.
BTW breath/blood alcohol testing does infringe your right against self-incrimination. That's been forgotten though hasn't it?
And I can't help thinking that the cops must have more sophisticated surveillance techniques than cellphones and text messages.

It's the old 'action beats reaction' thing Lou, with scanners, guys on outposts and cell-phones etc it makes thing just a tad tricky to be there and nail 'em.

And what 'proven safety measure' would have prevented the tragedy I mentioned about six posts ago?

[Paul in NZ]

If they REALLY cared they'd spend money on proven safety measures, not lame adverts.
BTW breath/blood alcohol testing does infringe your right against self-incrimination. That's been forgotten though hasn't it?
And I can't help thinking that the cops must have more sophisticated surveillance techniques than cellphones and text messages.

Mate I can physically show you some surveillance gear that would freak you out but who can afford it and do you really want the govt putting this stuff up? Besides, unless you park a milsat over the country everything is detectable eventually.. It just can't be done on a sensible budget.

Besides.. Where would the Police get the resources to totally surround, arrest and process a group that big? The boy racers know that, thats why they do what they do in groups...

If you don't like it, perhaps you could pressure your MP to get the army to lend a hand as they do have enough resource... However we are then setting a pretty dangerous precedent..

Neh! People will always be idiots and bigger idiots in bigger groups...

Cheers

[Lou Girardin]

It's the old 'action beats reaction' thing Lou, with scanners, guys on outposts and cell-phones etc it makes thing just a tad tricky to be there and nail 'em.

And what 'proven safety measure' would have prevented the tragedy I mentioned about six posts ago?

C'mon now, you'll never stop all fatals, you know that. Better mental health care might have stopped it, although even all the 'revenue collectors' on SH1 didn't. But look at the fall in fatals when they put barriers down the M/ways and that was after the MOW said they were too expensive for their perceived benefit.

[scumdog]

C'mon now, you'll never stop all fatals, you know that. Better mental health care might have stopped it, although even all the 'revenue collectors' on SH1 didn't. But look at the fall in fatals when they put barriers down the M/ways and that was after the MOW said they were too expensive for their perceived benefit.

Just shows how bad "I'm an above average driver" Mr Joe Bloggs really is, too dumb to focus on the repercussions of crossing the centreline!!

How do you guage how effective policing the roads really is? - I suppose taking ALL police off the roads for a week would do it, just watch the toll rise then.!

Until they find a better way it'll just have to be 'revenue gathering' as usual, nobody in any country has found a less expesive/more effective way of keeping a lid on the (generally) unnecessary road-toll.


Education and a more difficult test with a higher learning to drive age could be better but then the "Too Hard" bleaters would be in on the act.

[Indoo]

As for the boy-racer thing, why aren't operations mounted to target these creeps? Things like blocking both ends of the road they're on after a period of surveillance to identify the main offenders and turning over all the shitboxes caught in the trap.

That happens here in Auckland a few times, the problem is the sheer amount of Police who have to be taken off frontline duties to do it. Sometimes you have up top 400 cars attending the illegals, often these cars have 3-4 idiots in the back so your usually looking at over a 1000 people. Theres a decent amount of troublemakers who usually attend and love nothing more than to bottle the Police. So you really need in excess of 20 or so cops to be rostered on it which in Auckland is like trying to draw blood outa a stone.

But it has happened and im sure will happen alot more in the future after last weekend.

[Lou Girardin]

How do you guage how effective policing the roads really is? - I suppose taking ALL police off the roads for a week would do it, just watch the toll rise then.!
Education and a more difficult test with a higher learning to drive age could be better but then the "Too Hard" bleaters would be in on the act.

One of the complaints from the AA and others was the lack of visible enforcement after the Police/MOT merger until '99. But the road toll fell more in that period than it has since. That's a small guide.
Anyway, the issue is more complex than how many cops are on the road.
Enforcement is getting tougher all the time, but the toll is not dropping as much as one would expect, according to LTNZ it should be consistantly under 400 now.
The bleaters would be the 'too expensive, lose too many votes" type.

[marty]

[QUOTE=Paul in NZ]It's a bit like saying the "Wiararapa is a know spot where motorcyclists break the law". While that is a true statement it's also a little harder stopping this behaviour than just know roughly where people are.

QUOTE]

or , "sh1 meremere is a spot where many people have died in fatals" maybe the police should patrol that area. oh hang on, they were. but it was quiet. so they should have been at tamaki. but then that would have been quiet. so they should have been at portage rd, but then tamaki woudl be busy. and someone may have crashed at meremere - and where were the cops? drinking coffee on the roadside at tamaki waiting for the boy racers to turn up and do burnouts probably.

more than likely the cops were dodging machetes and knives in domestics in south auckland, or attending sudden deaths, or stuck in the watchhouse.

[marty]

That happens here in Auckland a few times, the problem is the sheer amount of Police who have to be taken off frontline duties to do it. Sometimes you have up top 400 cars attending the illegals, often these cars have 3-4 idiots in the back so your usually looking at over a 1000 people. Theres a decent amount of troublemakers who usually attend and love nothing more than to bottle the Police. So you really need in excess of 20 or so cops to be rostered on it which in Auckland is like trying to draw blood outa a stone.

But it has happened and im sure will happen alot more in the future after last weekend.

a road block is a significant issue, you need to read the legislation before simply blocking the road.

[Lou Girardin]

a road block is a significant issue, you need to read the legislation before simply blocking the road.

If they can have a hikoi on the Harbour Bridge, they can block a road. Just takes the will to do it.
But, having said that, it's easier to pass stupid legislation (boy racer law) than actually do something constructive.

[spudchucka]

only %2 in given to the police by the govt?
thats why we always see them dishes out tickets. revenue collecting?
to make up for what the govt won't give out.
got to make money somewhere.
Regardless of what the ticket revenue is the police are still funded the same amount. Ticket revenue is not returned to the police just the same as petrol tax isn't put back into the roads. Instead we have a world leading social welfare system, even though we have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the developed world..... Go Figure!

[spudchucka]

That was pure revenue collecting... whilst the previous night no police were at a known boy racer spot. OK... would the police here please explain the logic behind this apparent misuse of resources.
Do you go fishing?

Do you ever catch ALL the fish?

If the cops are at the same place every day and night, (a known boy racer spot for instance) how often do you think they would catch an offender? What do you think the boy racers reaction to the polcie presence would be?

How many police do you think there are? How do you reasonably expect them to be everywhere that YOU think they should be?

How do you know that the section of roadworks wasn't the subject of several speed related traffic incidents? Did the police receive complaints from the roading contractors due to them feeling unsafe as a result of idiot drivers? Did the police receive complaints from the public relating to this also? If they did then was the action taken appropriate? Were they serving the needs and wishes of their public by policing that section of road at that time?

Can you answer any of these question? If you can then you can answer your own question too.

[Ixion]

Regardless of what the ticket revenue is the police are still funded the same amount. Ticket revenue is not returned to the police just the same as petrol tax isn't put back into the roads. Instead we have a world leading social welfare system, even though we have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the developed world..... Go Figure!

Well, indirectly it is. LTSA fund a large part of road policing operations. The revenue from TONs, speed cameras (not "summonsed" or arrest offences) is credited to the LTSA budget . So the bigger that credit is, the more money LTSA have, and the bigger the amount they offer the police. Which enables the gubbermint to claim that police funding has increased, whilst general duties do a freeze.So indirectly it does go back to the police, just channeled through the LTSA.

[spudchucka]

Well, indirectly it is. LTSA fund a large part of road policing operations. The revenue from TONs, speed cameras (not "summonsed" or arrest offences) is credited to the LTSA budget . So the bigger that credit is, the more money LTSA have, and the bigger the amount they offer the police. Which enables the gubbermint to claim that police funding has increased, whilst general duties do a freeze.So indirectly it does go back to the police, just channeled through the LTSA.
The funds could equally come from any form of Govt revenue. The value of the revenue gathered through traffic enforcement is not reciprocated in Govt funding to the police. Regardless of how much money is gathered the police still get the amount agreed on in budgets.

[Ixion]

The funds could equally come from any form of Govt revenue. The value of the revenue gathered through traffic enforcement is not reciprocated in Govt funding to the police. Regardless of how much money is gathered the police still get the amount agreed on in budgets.

Agreed. What I'm saying is that the greater the amount of revenue from traffic policing the greater the likelihood (not certainty) that LTSA get a bigger budget. And if that happens they contract more hours from the police. Then the gubbermint look at the total police revenue, and because the extra LTSA hours have increased that, are reluctant to budget more for general duties.

It is correct that once the budget is settled the police get that regardless of how many or how few tickets they issue. So the "revenue" question is not going to be a factor for individual coppers , it makes no difference to them. When it comes to the Commissioner's office setting priorities that may be another matter. He who pays the pipe calls the tune, and in this case that's the LTSA.

[drummer]

Regardless of what the ticket revenue is the police are still funded the same amount. Ticket revenue is not returned to the police just the same as petrol tax isn't put back into the roads. Instead we have a world leading social welfare system, even though we have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the developed world..... Go Figure!
petrol tax being put into roading... some people actually believe that... :killingme

Plus... why would the funding of police from or not from fines be relevent to the argument of revenue collecting?

[drummer]

a road block is a significant issue, you need to read the legislation before simply blocking the road.Good grief.. are you saying that the police can't take all necessary steps to catch apprehenders? well if not... then the laws regarding this are an ass and need to be changed.

[drummer]

So all those 'warnings' got nowhere, never got throught to you??

I guess a couple of tickets after the first warning might have made the difference, I rest my case.

Again you miss the point... and make no case. What he was trying to get across was the mutual understanding that the police USED to have with the public... and therefore the public was more likely to assist and respect the police.

[scumdog]

Good grief.. are you saying that the police can't take all necessary steps to catch apprehenders? well if not... then the laws regarding this are an ass and need to be changed.

Go and ask a lawyer about the 'rights' arseholes (and the public at large) have and THEN ask that question about "taking all necessary steps"

Even you would have to admit that what is 'necessary' in the eyes of the public and what CAN be done are worlds apart, to protect the innocent - "Yeah right" (but then lawyers act as if everybody is innocent.)

[drummer]

Just shows how bad "I'm an above average driver" Mr Joe Bloggs really is, too dumb to focus on the repercussions of crossing the centreline!!

How do you guage how effective policing the roads really is? - I suppose taking ALL police off the roads for a week would do it, just watch the toll rise then.!

Until they find a better way it'll just have to be 'revenue gathering' as usual, nobody in any country has found a less expesive/more effective way of keeping a lid on the (generally) unnecessary road-toll.


Education and a more difficult test with a higher learning to drive age could be better but then the "Too Hard" bleaters would be in on the act.
I agree with a higher age for learner drivers... but heres one issue as yet undiscussed... who votes labour here? Any police? Well you are supporting a party that is consistantly overlooking issues of safety. two in particular are the abolition of driving tests for seniors, and the consistant refusal to make cell phone use illegal in cars. very rider here knows full well the danger of drivers using cellphones. Every rider here knows the danger from seniors who don't look or don't have fast enough reactions. So to the police reps here... don't preach to me about road safety if you support the current regime. :nono:

[scumdog]

Again you miss the point... and make no case. What he was trying to get across was the mutual understanding that the police USED to have with the public... and therefore the public was more likely to assist and respect the police.

And if the public DON'T assist police? then generally it is the public that suffer. (If they haven't killed themselves first by riding like dicks 'cos they have no fear of repercussions for their breaches of the law.

Mutual understanding? pah!
In your dreams sunshine!!!

In todays world if somebody got a heap of warnings without penalties what difference would it make to their offending? None, and probably if they killed themselves their parents would sue the police 'cos if they had been harder on little Johnny he might have worn his helmet/slowed down whatever.

Nice troll all the same :wait:

[scumdog]

I agree with a higher age for learner drivers... but heres one issue as yet undiscussed... who votes labour here? Any police? Well you are supporting a party that is consistantly overlooking issues of safety. two in particular are the abolition of driving tests for seniors, and the consistant refusal to make cell phone use illegal in cars. very rider here knows full well the danger of drivers using cellphones. Every rider here knows the danger from seniors who don't look or don't have fast enough reactions. So to the police reps here... don't preach to me about road safety if you support the current regime. :nono:

Wow, there's a whole nest of lines with lures on the end of them attached to this post!!!!!!

Having said that I suggest a relocation to a country where police and governments do exactly what pleases you is in order - or readmittance to the real world. :msn-wink:

[drummer]

Do you go fishing?

Do you ever catch ALL the fish?

If the cops are at the same place every day and night, (a known boy racer spot for instance) how often do you think they would catch an offender? What do you think the boy racers reaction to the polcie presence would be?

How many police do you think there are? How do you reasonably expect them to be everywhere that YOU think they should be?

heres an idea for you and your colleagues. I read recently about community volinteers. They patrolled known hotspots and reported crime. Howabout this... establish a crack squad of "boy racer" officers. they could be established for each area.. Akl Wgtn etc. As soon as the volinteers report in the police swoop... not is siren sounding squad cars but by stealth. unmarked cars and bikes... block the road and book the lot. If this currently can't be done... then the law must be changed and funding approved... but I will not hold my breath under the scum we call the current Government.

[drummer]

Mutual understanding? pah!
In your dreams sunshine!!!really? i wonder how old you are... i remember when the police and public DID have that understanding.

[drummer]

Wow, there's a whole nest of lines with lures on the end of them attached to this post!!!!!!

Having said that I suggest a relocation to a country where police and governments do exactly what pleases you is in order - or readmittance to the real world. :msn-wink:So you vote Labour then.

[Ixion]

And if the public DON'T assist police? then generally it is the public that suffer. (If they haven't killed themselves first by riding like dicks 'cos they have no fear of repercussions for their breaches of the law.

Mutual understanding? pah!
In your dreams sunshine!!!

In todays world if somebody got a heap of warnings without penalties what difference would it make to their offending? None, and probably if they killed themselves their parents would sue the police 'cos if they had been harder on little Johnny he might have worn his helmet/slowed down whatever.

Nice troll all the same :wait:

Well, I know that when I was learning to ride, one of the local snakes was bloody brilliant about keeping an eye on young riders. And many a time he pulled me up with a "You're not going to get a ticket, but I want to talk to about some stuff that's going to cause you grief if you continue". Then a lecture, and often a bollocking. And he didn't mince his words either!

He gave me two official warnings. Yes I sure did take notice of them. Never did that stuff again (one was for wheelying - on a BSA Bantam!). Never done another intentional wheelie on the road.

Gave me a ticket for no WOF on the 3TA and made me push it all the way home, too. Made sure I had a warrant after that.

He wasn't a total soft touch though, did one mate for speed dangerous (on a bike) , and another for careless driving. And assorted speeding tickets (I never got one - like I said I took what he told me seriously)

Colossal props to that snake, I reckon that sure as he saved my life a few times over the years. He'd be over 70 now, I hope he's still riding , either here or in Another Place.

So yeah, people do take notice of warnings. Maybe you have become a bit over-cynical ?

Clarification: The reason I listened to him was not because I feared him. It was because he was willing to take the time to help young riders (like me). When he said "whatyou're doing is this, the reason why that's a bad idea is thus, what I want to see you doing is that" we all took notice. It wasn't all "law breaking stuff" either, often as not (more often ) it was general pointers, the sort of thing we're talking about on this site. We figured that if someone who had the skills and training he did was willing to point us in the right direction, only an idiot would not listen. Those snakes were formidable riders.

[drummer]

Colossal props to that snake, I reckon that sure as he saved my life a few times over the years. He'd be over 70 now, I hope he's still riding , either here or in Another Place.

So yeah, people do take notice of warnings. Maybe you have become a bit over-cynical ?hey... that understanding apparently never existed according to scumdog.

[scumdog]

really? i wonder how old you are... i remember when the police and public DID have that understanding.

Old enough to remember buying Bavarian Bitter for $1.97 a half dozen when I was 20. (big bottles)

And it was more 'fear' than 'understanding' back then.

[drummer]

Old enough to remember buying Bavarian Bitter for $1.97 a half dozen when I was 20. (big bottles)

And it was more 'fear' than 'understanding' back then.Fair enough... about the same vintage. It may have been fear for you... but not for me... i trusted them... there was always a fear if you did something wrong... but at the same time a bit of leeway for the cop to administer his own rap... like the pushing the bike home thing...

[scumdog]

... there was always a fear if you did something wrong... but at the same time a bit of leeway for the cop to administer his own rap... like the pushing the bike home thing...

THAT is the kind of fear I was talking about, try that trick these days and there's a good chance the little toe-rag would say "make me" (and stick his toungue out so to speak)

And they don't fear their parents either - and a lot of parents think their kid is an angel that never does anything wrong -"not his fault"

I wasn't talking about the fear of getting beaten or similar.

I guess the line between fear and respect blurs a bit for you and I.

[Paul in NZ]

Old enough to remember buying Bavarian Bitter for $1.97 a half dozen when I was 20. (big bottles)

And it was more 'fear' than 'understanding' back then.

Bavarian Bitter - HA! Memories flooding back... Those brown paper sacks in 2's, 4's and 6's eh!

Jeeze..

[Lou Girardin]

Mate I can physically show you some surveillance gear that would freak you out but who can afford it and do you really want the govt putting this stuff up? Besides, unless you park a milsat over the country everything is detectable eventually.. It just can't be done on a sensible budget.

Besides.. Where would the Police get the resources to totally surround, arrest and process a group that big? The boy racers know that, thats why they do what they do in groups...

If you don't like it, perhaps you could pressure your MP to get the army to lend a hand as they do have enough resource... However we are then setting a pretty dangerous precedent..

Neh! People will always be idiots and bigger idiots in bigger groups...

Cheers

They find enough when it suits them.

[drummer]

THAT is the kind of fear I was talking about, try that trick these days and there's a good chance the little toe-rag would say "make me" (and stick his toungue out so to speak)

And they don't fear their parents either - and a lot of parents think their kid is an angel that never does anything wrong -"not his fault"

I wasn't talking about the fear of getting beaten or similar.

I guess the line between fear and respect blurs a bit for you and I.What you say is true regarding the lack of respect. It is a travesty (sp?) that we have let the social manipulators interfere like they have. i can understand the frustration you and your colleagues must face in dealing with young people. However, it is the law that must change and to do that we must change the lawmakers to those who believe in punishment for crime. Then we must ensure that the police have the resources to do their job as well as the training for the police to administer their power with understanding. It is only then I believe the NZ police will gain back public confidence.

[spudchucka]

It is only then I believe the NZ police will gain back public confidence.
You aren't a TV One guest on Thursday night are you?

[spudchucka]

Howabout this... establish a crack squad of "boy racer" officers. they could be established for each area.. Akl Wgtn etc. Oh, sort of like the Highway Patrol, Strategic Traffic Units, Traffic Alcohol Units etc etc etc.

As soon as the volinteers report in the police swoop... not is siren sounding squad cars but by stealth. Happens now.

unmarked cars and bikes...Yes please, we want more!

block the road and book the lot.Book them for what exactly?

If this currently can't be done... then the law must be changed and funding approved...I've blocked heaps of roads to hem in the street racers, usually country roads though, not city streets. Even had the locals parking tractors across roads to keep the wankers from buggering off before we can get to them.

but I will not hold my breath under the scum we call the current Government.You'll have your chance soon, are you standing?

[spudchucka]

So to the police reps here... don't preach to me about road safety if you support the current regime. :nono:
You make many assumptions, most of your arguements are based on assumption and so are your political assessments of other members of this site.

[spudchucka]

Good grief.. are you saying that the police can't take all necessary steps to catch apprehenders? well if not... then the laws regarding this are an ass and need to be changed.
Heres an idea for you, research the issue so that you know the facts before spouting off.

[spudchucka]

petrol tax being put into roading... some people actually believe that... :killingme

Plus... why would the funding of police from or not from fines be relevent to the argument of revenue collecting?
Read the previous posts dumb arse, somebody suggested that ticket revenue is returned directly to the police. It isn't!

[Lou Girardin]

We know that Spud, as we also know that fine revenue is a powerful factor in the allocation of the Police budget each year. Your bosses spare no resources in ensuring that the predicted fine revenue is achieved. An example being the increased emphasis placed on Officer issued tickets as camera revenue dropped. That emphasis being quotas, reduced speed tolerance/Officer discretion discouraged, more and better technology.

[spudchucka]

We know that Spud, as we also know that fine revenue is a powerful factor in the allocation of the Police budget each year. Your bosses spare no resources in ensuring that the predicted fine revenue is achieved. An example being the increased emphasis placed on Officer issued tickets as camera revenue dropped. That emphasis being quotas, reduced speed tolerance/Officer discretion discouraged, more and better technology.
Why haven't I been sacked then? Because I write stuff all tickets and use heaps of discretion, surely I should have been sacked by now as this is clearly, (according to you) totally against the policies of my employer! Why am I able to do what you say cops can't do anymore?

[drummer]

You aren't a TV One guest on Thursday night are you?
I was on a Thursday 5 weeks ago... now that will get you thinking

[drummer]

Read the previous posts dumb arse, somebody suggested that ticket revenue is returned directly to the police. It isn't!
Aha abuse... now wouldn't it be interesting if you copped me for something.. I now have a defence. if you read my post i said SOME PEOPLE!

[drummer]

Heres an idea for you, research the issue so that you know the facts before spouting off.
oh good grief I forgot.. I can't have an opinion according to you unless I am... how you say... "educated".

[drummer]

You'll have your chance soon, are you standing?Not this time but playing an active part.

[Lou Girardin]

Why haven't I been sacked then? Because I write stuff all tickets and use heaps of discretion, surely I should have been sacked by now as this is clearly, (according to you) totally against the policies of my employer! Why am I able to do what you say cops can't do anymore?


You're a special case Spud, Very special.
Besides, there's a rebel in every group. I bet there's stuff all rebellious HP guys. They wouldn't be HP long, they'd be GD.

[scumdog]

oh good grief I forgot.. I can't have an opinion according to you unless I am... how you say... "educated".

No, even slack-jawed, mouth-breathing, improvident, lack-witted oxygen thieves are allowed an opinion - is that you too?? :msn-wink:

[scumdog]

You're a special case Spud, Very special.
Besides, there's a rebel in every group. I bet there's stuff all rebellious HP guys. They wouldn't be HP long, they'd be GD.

Hey, I too don't stress about giving the 'required' amount of tickets - maybe it's my 'don't give a shit' freezing workers attitude??

[spudchucka]

oh good grief I forgot.. I can't have an opinion according to you unless I am... how you say... "educated".
An educated opinion is less likely to be scorned, its your choice.

[spudchucka]

Aha abuse... now wouldn't it be interesting if you copped me for something.. I now have a defence. if you read my post i said SOME PEOPLE!
You're a sensitive wee soul aren't ya.

[spudchucka]

I was on a Thursday 5 weeks ago... now that will get you thinking
Not at all because I pay this much, (0) attention to television.

[Lou Girardin]

Hey, I too don't stress about giving the 'required' amount of tickets - maybe it's my 'don't give a shit' freezing workers attitude??

Yeah, the bosses always gave up on the rural rebels in the MOT too. But I thought you wrote lots of tickets.

[drummer]

Not at all because I pay this much, (0) attention to television.maybe you should have paid attention to Tv1 last night Spud... maybe you could have heard that pathetic punk of a commissioner and the failed minister for police tell us all is well... that if a little old lady fell out of bed and rang 111 a nice caring officer would pick her up. YEAH RIGHT! Maybe you could have heard how 3000 of 7000 callers to the programme have lost confidence in the police and yet the two morons were spouting off how it showed that NZ had tremendous faith in the police.... I can do little but shake my head at the total failure of these two complete idiots to do anything but bury their heads in the sand.

[drummer]

You're a sensitive wee soul aren't ya.Spud... you have continually reacted to my simple staement that the public of NZ is losing confidence in the police. You have reverted to open abuse... and yet you actively portray yourself here as a police officer. Should I have confidence in you? Should I have faith that you would be impartial in judging me in your official capacity? NO WAY! If you continue to actively promote yourself as an officer and yet continue to verbally abuse people then what are we to think? If I was to be pulled up by you or accused by you of breaking the law, my defence would be simple and to the point. Figure it out for yourself!

Now why don't you for one moment take a look at your organsation from outside of the square, and honestly tell me that what I say isn't correct. Instead of resorting to abuse, take a step back and listen to what people are saying.

[Ixion]

Spud... you have continually reacted to my simple staement that the public of NZ is losing confidence in the police. You have reverted to open abuse... and yet you actively portray yourself here as a police officer. Should I have confidence in you?..

It is perfectly possible for people to be losing confidence in the police force as a generality, whilst still retaining perfect confidence in individual "coal face" coppers. Mr Spudchucka and his colleagues do not set the budgets, the man power assignments or the priorities for action. They are set in the Commissioner's and Ministers offices and it is to them that you should direct your misgivings.

As an example to prove my assertion : Imagine that Parliament reduced the police budget so much that the force could afford to employ only a single policeman. But that single policeman was a veritable paragon of policing a Dixon of Dock Green policeman. Then the country would indeed say that it had no confidence in the police force but total confidence in the policeman.

Loss of confidence in the police force does not mean that one cannot repose confidence in individual coppers to do their job honestly objectively and fairly. Which is all anyone has any right to ask.

Separate always objections to the strategy of the police force from hostility toward the coppers who do the work.

[scumdog]

drummer, find another forum to use when tilting at windmills dude - Lou at his worst was not as bad as you.

We've got the message - you're not happy with police, mainly the hierachy.
Spud and I cannot do a lot about what is happening above our level (i.e. administration).

People like you seem to want "a Rolls Royce - on a Morris Minor budget", it won't happen, - you, the public and Spud and myself are going to have to make do with what we've got/been given.

Direct you grief at the politicians et al. Spud and I will TRY and do our job the best we can, we have more idea of what's involved and what the constraints are.

Don't like what's happening? Find what you can do to change it, can't change it? - as I said before, immigrating would seen pretty good to me if I had your thoughts and frustrations and belief that this countries police is so much worse than anywhere else.

Don't worry, be happy. :D

[scumdog]

So you vote Labour then.

A bit of a quantum leap to assume from my postings that I vote at all, you're not a non Labour politician touting for votes are you? :msn-wink:

[Biff]

Maybe you could have heard how 3000 of 7000 callers to the programme have lost confidence in the police.

IMHO - That was one seriously flawed poll if you ask me.

A live phone in poll, at a certain time of night, on a certain TV station narrows down the viewer demographics to such a level that you couldn't seriously use this result as a true indication of national opinion. And this is compounded by the fact that there was, in % terms, such little difference between the yes & no votes. Shit loads of margin for error.

[Pixie]

People like you seem to want "a Rolls Royce - on a Morris Minor budget", it won't happen, - you, the public and Spud and myself are going to have to make do with what we've got/been given.

Direct you grief at the politicians et al. Spud and I will TRY and do our job the best we can, we have more idea of what's involved and what the constraints are.

D
Accepted that this situation is the fault of the polititicians;It would be more accurate to describe it as a Morris Minor,which is parked up and used as a whore house,rather than as form of conveyance. :devil2:

[drummer]

Direct you grief at the politicians et al. Spud and I will TRY and do our job the best we can, we have more idea of what's involved and what the constraints are.i am sure you do, but Spuds reaction in particular got me going... he has continually defended the service that is losing public support rapidly. I do not agree with his or your belief that the police force is doing a good job in NZ. What is wrong with that? i will also continue to defend the abuse that Spud now throws, particulalry as he actively debates from a police point of view.

[drummer]

IMHO - That was one seriously flawed poll if you ask me.

A live phone in poll, at a certain time of night, on a certain TV station narrows down the viewer demographics to such a level that you couldn't seriously use this result as a true indication of national opinion. And this is compounded by the fact that there was, in % terms, such little difference between the yes & no votes. Shit loads of margin for error.Maybe so but it is broadly in line with other surveys I have seen. Are you disagreeing that the public is losing confidence in the police?

[Wolf]

IMHO - That was one seriously flawed poll if you ask me.

A live phone in poll, at a certain time of night, on a certain TV station narrows down the viewer demographics to such a level that you couldn't seriously use this result as a true indication of national opinion. And this is compounded by the fact that there was, in % terms, such little difference between the yes & no votes. Shit loads of margin for error.
In 7th form stats we were all drilled in the lesson of a certain poll, conducted by telephone, predicting the outcome of the US elections - the poll suggested a landslide for one party and there was indeed a landslide...

In favour of the other party.

Why? Well, Bob, when the poll was taken, very few people actually had telephones and those who did tended to be rich so, not surprisingly, most of those polled were predisposed to vote for the party that had policies that supported their businesses.

However, there was at the time, milling about the USA, a greater number of poorer people who did not have telephones but did have the vote - and they used it to great effect.

The lesson we were expected to draw from this example of spectacularly bungled prediction: ENSURE YOUR SAMPLE IS PROPERLY INDICATIVE OF THE POPULATION AS A WHOLE.

BIff is way too humble (did I actually say that?) - his assessment of the poll is a considered one.

Viewer demographic profiles are sufficient to allow reasonably accurate targetted advertising slots - something they would not do if the audience was a full spectrum snapshot of the New Zealand population - they'd still be advertising Barbie and all her accessories along with the George Forman Grill, the Sex and Smut chatline and Earl Grey tea.

The people who responded to that poll belong to a certain demographic - a subset of the population that watches TV1 at that hour of the night, is interested in that subject matter, and (importantly) can actually be arsed phoning in with their opinion.

A poll conducted nation-wide with proper controls and carefully selected samples from all regions/ages/walks of life etc, would yield dramatically different results - it may show a greater faith in the police force or it may show even less faith - there is no meaningful way to determine which.

A proper poll would also have carefully crafted questions (plural) and would explore what areas people have or fail to have faith in rather than limiting the field with leading questions and simple yes/no answers.

I always used to giggle at Flipside - its hosts solemnly telling us that "80% of New Zealanders" wanted to hear more Hip Hop or thought that Politicians were too out-moded or whatever - based on texted-in responses to simple Yes/No polls on a programme aimed at teenagers :killingme :killingme :killingme :killingme

The hosts were so wet behind the ears they didn't even realise how fucked their polls were. Probably 90% of those who answered the polls were below voting age and would not be able to exercise any power in a referendum - and would probably have changed their minds (or no longer think it important) by the time they were old enough to vote.

[scumdog]

i am sure you do, but Spuds reaction in particular got me going... he has continually defended the service that is losing public support rapidly. I do not agree with his or your belief that the police force is doing a good job in NZ. What is wrong with that? i will also continue to defend the abuse that Spud now throws, particulalry as he actively debates from a police point of view.

Think what you want to think but don't drop your lance, - theres a shit load of windmills out there that are just waiting to be tilted at!! :D

Find something constructive and meaningful to do eh? :yes:

[Lou Girardin]

It turns out that the TV1 poll was a total debacle. They changed the question after an ad break. Now they have to refund all the 0900 fees.
But the bottom line is still that the public are losing confidence in the Police at an alarming rate. This was all easily predicted from the UK experience. There's something about the NZ mindset that prevents us from learning lessons from elsewhere.
And I'm even refraining from saying I told you so.

[Biff]

Are you disagreeing that the public is losing confidence in the police?

I can't answer that question as I've only been in this country since October.

What I have also noticed is that there is a large portion of the public that appears to whinge and blame serving police officers for any perceived shortcomings in the quality of service received. Now this is just plain bloody stupid and a waste of breath. These people should be having a go at the senior police officers, decision makers and politicians, not the men and woman of the police force that simply follow orders.

[Lou Girardin]

Possibly, but there isn't a shortage of thieving, gang-banging, thuggery among the ranks either. There aren't many, but one is too many.
Anyway, it's too difficult to complain about "the Police, but I don't mean any of the good ones" when you post/write letters/generally whinge.

[drummer]

Think what you want to think but don't drop your lance, - theres a shit load of windmills out there that are just waiting to be tilted at!! :D

Find something constructive and meaningful to do eh? :yes:Hmmm.. sounds deep to me. why do you think that debating this issue is not constructive and meaningful?

[drummer]

I can't answer that question as I've only been in this country since October.

What I have also noticed is that there is a large portion of the public that appears to whinge and blame serving police officers for any perceived shortcomings in the quality of service received. Now this is just plain bloody stupid and a waste of breath. These people should be having a go at the senior police officers, decision makers and politicians, not the men and woman of the police force that simply follow orders.If you have only been here for that short time, i would suggest you should come back in a few years time and tell us then the same thing because your view may change. Granted, the ones above are the main problem but there is also too much head in the sand material in the front line... look at Spud for example :D

[Lou Girardin]

Spud has his head in the sand. Stop it, you're :killingme

[drummer]

Stop it, you're :killingmehuh... I ain't speeding! :ride:

[Biff]

If you have only been here for that short time, i would suggest you should come back in a few years time and tell us then the same thing because your view may change. Granted, the ones above are the main problem but there is also too much head in the sand material in the front line... look at Spud for example :D

I doubt my view will change in a couple of years.

I've lived in several countries over the years and, without exception, members of the public blame police officers in general for their personal gripes for the perceived poor level of service they believe they receive. This is despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of police officers are hard working, law-abiding individuals. Despite this there will always be a minority of individuals who continue to abuse police officers in general, simply because it's easier to do than whinge to the proper authorities, the ones that actually make policy, allocate budget etc. It's the easy option and a way to vent their anger and frustration. Particularly when it's a lot easier to insult a uniform, even from behind a computer screen, than topple a government or influence policy making in general.

I'm afraid there most certainly is nothing unique about NZ. This kind of anti-police sentiment is the same the world over. But the fact remains NZ is one of the safest places in the world to live and work, and some of this must be attributed to effective policing.

But don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying that there is nothing wrong with the management of the police service here. As I’ve already stated I don’t know enough about the service delivered by the police here. The only brush with the law I’ve had are speeding related, and even then I must admit that the cops did their job well, and I’ve even been let of a ticket, despite the fact that I was well over the limit.

If you really want to change the way things work, then you need to channel your energy in the direction of the policy makers as opposed to the front line foot soldiers.

[scumdog]

I doubt my view will change in a couple of years.

. Despite this there will always be a minority of individuals who continue to abuse police officers in general, simply because it's easier to do than whinge to the proper authorities, Particularly when it's a lot easier to insult a uniform, even from behind a computer screen, than topple a government or influence policy making in general.
If you really want to change the way things work, then you need to channel your energy in the direction of the policy makers as opposed to the front line foot soldiers.

Never mind Biff, let 'em complain all they want if it will make them feel better!

I don't mind at all - but then I don't care either, they don't pay me for that. :msn-wink:

[drummer]

I doubt my view will change in a couple of years.

I've lived in several countries over the years and, without exception, members of the public blame police officers in general for their personal gripes for the perceived poor level of service they believe they receive. This is despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of police officers are hard working, law-abiding individuals. Despite this there will always be a minority of individuals who continue to abuse police officers in general, simply because it's easier to do than whinge to the proper authorities, the ones that actually make policy, allocate budget etc. It's the easy option and a way to vent their anger and frustration. Particularly when it's a lot easier to insult a uniform, even from behind a computer screen, than topple a government or influence policy making in general.

I'm afraid there most certainly is nothing unique about NZ. This kind of anti-police sentiment is the same the world over. But the fact remains, that NZ is one of the safest places in the world to live and work, and some of this must be attributed to effective policing.

But don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying that there is nothing wrong with the management of the police service here. As I’ve already stated I don’t know enough about the service delivered by the police here. The only brush with the law I’ve had are speeding related, and even then I must admit that the cops did their job well, and I’ve even been let of a ticket, despite the fact that I was well over the limit.

If you really want to change the way things work, then you need to channel your energy in the direction of the policy makers as opposed to the front line foot soldiers.Interesting post... perhaps seen through rose tinted specs. you seem to miss the point however. The fact remains that there has been a massive decline in public confidence towards the NZ police. Thats not an opinion... it is fact. Note I said "confidence". the people of NZ need to know that if needed the NZP will respond quickly and desisively. Unfortunately this hasn't been the case in recent times. Now, if you can find a post where I crucify front line police in general, i would be surprised. What i will do and continue to do is to defend myself against verbal attacks from posters here who actively portray themselves as police officers. especially when the attack comes in reply to pointing out the facts already mentioned.

[drummer]

Never mind Biff, let 'em complain all they want if it will make them feel better!

I don't mind at all - but then I don't care either, they don't pay me for that. :msn-wink:If someone was attcking an organisation I work in, I would listen and maybe understand the public may have a point. I wonder also if you could refer me to a post where I for example have attacked you personally as a police officer... i merely point out the facts as they stand

[scumdog]

Interesting post... perhaps seen through rose tinted specs. you seem to miss the point however. The fact remains that there has been a massive decline in public confidence towards the NZ police. Thats not an opinion... it is fact. Note I said "confidence". the people of NZ need to know that if needed the NZP will respond quickly and desisively. Unfortunately this hasn't been the case in recent times. Now, if you can find a post where I crucify front line police in general, i would be surprised. What i will do and continue to do is to defend myself against verbal attacks from posters here who actively portray themselves as police officers. especially when the attack comes in reply to pointing out the facts already mentioned.

No confidence in the Police? then call??? or maybe??? or how about??? they're BOUND to be better eh? :msn-wink:

Me? I'll take a gamble on the Police getting it right instead of ?????

[scumdog]

If someone was attcking an organisation I work in, I would listen and maybe understand the public may have a point. I wonder also if you could refer me to a post where I for example have attacked you personally as a police officer... i merely point out the facts as they stand

I can't recall you attacking me personally - but then maybe you were lost in the throng that was!!!

Just kidding but posting here ain't going to change diddley-squat though is it?

[drummer]

No confidence in the Police? then call??? or maybe??? or how about??? they're BOUND to be better eh? :msn-wink:

Me? I'll take a gamble on the Police getting it right instead of ?????it shouldn't be a gamble! also, I didn't say NO confidence I have been contunually referring to the increasing Lack of confidence. They are two different things... I have a certain degree of confidence but not as much as I would like.

[marty]

so what is your occupation drummer?

[Biff]

Interesting post... perhaps seen through rose tinted specs.

Only wear Gucci darling. Rose tints are soooooooo 70's.

[drummer]

so what is your occupation drummer?
A Drummer.

[drummer]

Only wear Gucci darling. Rose tints are soooooooo 70's.
well bless my soul, I am so retro!

[spudchucka]

look at Spud for example :D
Bite me! :shake:

[spudchucka]

Spud has his head in the sand. Stop it, you're :killingme
You too! :finger:

[spudchucka]

i am sure you do, but Spuds reaction in particular got me going... he has continually defended the service that is losing public support rapidly. I do not agree with his or your belief that the police force is doing a good job in NZ. What is wrong with that? i will also continue to defend the abuse that Spud now throws, particulalry as he actively debates from a police point of view.
Which reaction was that?

You can have whatever opinion you want and express it all you want. I'll make no apology for bluntly pointing out flawed arguements where opinions are based on minimal and miss-information, (as your arguements tend to be).

If you had been around for more than 171 posts you would see that my support of the police isn't blind. When they screw up I'm glad to admit it. The bosses are simply politicians dressed in blue, we all know that so see if you can come up with something new for a change.

Frankly I don't give a rats arse about whatever criticism you or anyone else wants to level at the police because I know that the people working on the frontline are the salt of the earth and are in the job because they have a genuine desire to help people. The bosses are another matter so direct your bitching at them if thats where your beef lies. If you think you are going to change anything by bleating on a motor bike forum you need to rethink your options.

[spudchucka]

Spud... you have continually reacted to my simple staement that the public of NZ is losing confidence in the police.Ok, so I reacted to your staement. What did you want me to do with it?


You have reverted to open abuse... Get over yourself, you haven't been the subject of abuse on this forum, have a look at some of the BS the likes of WINJA spreads around. You are being over sensitive!


and yet you actively portray yourself here as a police officer.I'm not "promoting" myself as anything but because of my occupation I have opinions on this topic. Opinions that are based on first hand experience not second hand information or BS media hype.


Should I have confidence in you?Now you are being completly stupid. To you I am just an internet persona on a biker forum. How can you have confidence in a person based solely on this form of communication? Sorry, I forgot, you're a clearvoiant aren't you? I mean you can sum up a persons political leanings by simply reading a few posts on an internet forum.


Should I have faith that you would be impartial in judging me in your official capacity? NO WAY!As above. You are being quite pathetic, (opps, sorry, was that abuse?)


If you continue to actively promote yourself as an officer and yet continue to verbally abuse people then what are we to think? Whatever you want. I don't care what you think of me.


If I was to be pulled up by you or accused by you of breaking the law, my defence would be simple and to the point. Figure it out for yourself!How would you know it was me? "Hi, I'm constable spudchucka and I'm giving you a ticket because you said you don't like the police on an internet forum".

I'm not even in the same part of the country as you FFS.


Now why don't you for one moment take a look at your organsation from outside of the square, and honestly tell me that what I say isn't correct. Other than the obvious, which none of us needed you to point out, you don't have a clue on this subject.


Instead of resorting to abuse, take a step back and listen to what people are saying.If you can't take a little bit of verbal then go join a nice safe politically correct forum where nobody uses bad language or calls anybody names. Otherwise, take a drink from the hard creek and get over yourself!

I've listened to you and I've decided that currently you aren't worth listening to!

[spudchucka]

maybe you should have paid attention to Tv1 last night Spud... maybe you could have heard that pathetic punk of a commissioner and the failed minister for police tell us all is well... that if a little old lady fell out of bed and rang 111 a nice caring officer would pick her up. YEAH RIGHT! Maybe you could have heard how 3000 of 7000 callers to the programme have lost confidence in the police and yet the two morons were spouting off how it showed that NZ had tremendous faith in the police.... I can do little but shake my head at the total failure of these two complete idiots to do anything but bury their heads in the sand.
Rob & George are idiots, you might be on to something there Sherlock. Got anything we didn't already know?

And by the way I have picked up several old ladies that fell out of bed and one that slipped off the bog and got stuck between the dunny and the wall.

[Lou Girardin]

Ah Spud, that wasn't really a dig at you, more at the idea of a spud being buried in sand.
And don't forget that your life's ambition at one stage was to give me a ticket.
Glad I don't get down your way much, it would throw my ticket average all to hell.

[spudchucka]

Ah Spud, that wasn't really a dig at you, more at the idea of a spud being buried in sand.I thought as much but couldn't pass up the opportunity to flick you the bird. All in jest of course!

And don't forget that your life's ambition at one stage was to give me a ticket.Now that was just a wind up and I'm sure you realise that. :whistle:

Glad I don't get down your way much, it would throw my ticket average all to hell.I mostly write tickets to crims and general low lifes. So unless you are one of them you'd have a good chance of getting away with no more than a finger wag. :nono: