A little bit here a little bit there

[Mudfart]

Im a man of logic most times. Where is the sense in raising GST, ACC, and all the other things the NAts are going to hit us on, yet claiming to lower personal tax?
Why not leave personal tax where it is, and not raise the other taxes by so much?
Do they know how much it costs to change up all this shit?
Or are the only people who get further tax cuts, going to be the wealthy again?
My guessing game with this govt is: you dont know what the fuk is going to happen until it already has.
Election promise: tax cuts.

[CookMySock]

It's the old kiwi tradition called "jacking the price up." Yeah it stinks, but you can use it to your benefit by jacking your own prices up, and when you get complaints just point at all your costs going up, and whaddayaknow everyone just accepts your price rise! Works real good!

Steve

[jim.cox]

What did you expect?

That a politician would keep his promises?

Never happened before, why expect it to now?

[Oscar]

Im a man of logic most times. Where is the sense in raising GST, ACC, and all the other things the NAts are going to hit us on, yet claiming to lower personal tax?
Why not leave personal tax where it is, and not raise the other taxes by so much?
Do they know how much it costs to change up all this shit?
Or are the only people who get further tax cuts, going to be the wealthy again?
My guessing game with this govt is: you dont know what the fuk is going to happen until it already has.
Election promise: tax cuts.

Basically (and generalising) it's because Labour Voters pay very little income tax (vis. "Working for Families"), and some GST - whereas most National voters pay both.
If you increase GST and decrease income tax, then it's supposedly is an incentive to save.

[mynameis]

Not only is it an incentive to save and move the nation towards being more aware of saving up and not living on credit.

It also helps retain our highly skilled, highly educated people in the country which we need if we are to bridge the gap between us and other countries like Auzzie.

[spajohn]

It also helps retain our highly skilled, highly educated people in the country which we need if we are to bridge the gap between us and other countries like Auzzie.

I was discussing this proposal with a mate in Sydney (from Canterbury) and he was genuinely interested that a move like this from the Nationals would make him seriously consider moving his family, and business back to NZ.

[slofox]

- whereas most National voters pay both.


Unless they are hiding their income in a trust...essentially a ploy of the higher income bracket persons, whatever colour shirt they wear.

It was recently stated that 40% of NZ'ers pay NO income tax and trusts were identified as a part of that avoidance - hence the move to drop company tax rates down so the incentive for avoidance is lessened.

I still think Roger Douglas's flat tax rate was the way we shoulda gone...First $15,000 dollars tax free and then a flat rate on anything above that. Which would remove the disincentive to earn more...

[Mully]

It was recently stated that 40% of NZ'ers pay NO income tax and trusts were identified as a part of that avoidance - hence the move to drop company tax rates down so the incentive for avoidance is lessened.


Which if true is entirely unacceptable and must be addressed.

But then how many low income "earners" are effectively paying nothing (by the time they get WFF payments and whatnot).

Meh - I'm likely to be better off. That's what matters.

EDIT: Yes, I'd like a flat tax rate too - with a tax-free bit at the bottom. I haven't bothered to research too much on it cos it's not likely to happen, but still.

[mynameis]

I was discussing this proposal with a mate in Sydney (from Canterbury) and he was genuinely interested that a move like this from the Nationals would make him seriously consider moving his family, and business back to NZ.

Puts things into new fresh perspective.


Unless they are hiding their income in a trust...essentially a ploy of the higher income bracket persons, whatever colour shirt they wear.

It was recently stated that 40% of NZ'ers pay NO income tax and trusts were identified as a part of that avoidance - hence the move to drop company tax rates down so the incentive for avoidance is lessened.

I still think Roger Douglas's flat tax rate was the way we shoulda gone...First $15,000 dollars tax free and then a flat rate on anything above that. Which would remove the disincentive to earn more...


Which if true is entirely unacceptable and must be addressed.

But then how many low income "earners" are effectively paying nothing (by the time they get WFF payments and whatnot).

Meh - I'm likely to be better off. That's what matters.

EDIT: Yes, I'd like a flat tax rate too - with a tax-free bit at the bottom. I haven't bothered to research too much on it cos it's not likely to happen, but still.

Yeap has been happening in NZ for decades under Labour leadership but National have said they will fix it, good on them.

The tax on trust is something ridiculous like 5% (not 100% sure) so if I have an investment property, open a trust, I become a trustee, put the house under it and I save thousands.

[oldrider]

Parkinson's law: "Work evolves around the time allotted"! (three years)

Politicians must be seen to be doing something! Anything at all!

The only bad publicity for a politician, is "no" publicity!

Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic fades into insignificance, when compared to the roll of the modern MMP politician!

[Mully]

Parkinson's law: "Work evolves around the time allotted"! (three years)

Politicians must be seen to be doing something! Anything at all!

The only bad publicity for a politician, is "no" publicity!

Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic fades into insignificance, when compared to the roll of the modern MMP politician!

Was this meant to be in the "sayings" thread in Jokes??

[Mully]

The tax on trust is something ridiculous like 5% (not 100% sure) so if I have an investment property, open a trust, I become a trustee, put the house under it and I save thousands.

IIRC, (and I'm only a bush lawyer), the tax on trust income is 30% - so the guys paying the top rate (39%) end up running all their income through a family trust. I thought the idea was to align the two rates to avoid that happening (and raise GST to recover the revenue).

[mynameis]

IIRC, (and I'm only a bush lawyer), the tax on trust income is 30% - so the guys paying the top rate (39%) end up running all their income through a family trust. I thought the idea was to align the two rates to avoid that happening (and raise GST to recover the revenue).

You could be right I don't know where that 5% came from :lol:

Yeah the whole idea is to align them to stop all the hussling from company, to trust, to personal ect..ect...

[slofox]

IIRC, (and I'm only a bush lawyer), the tax on trust income is 30% - so the guys paying the top rate (39%) end up running all their income through a family trust. I thought the idea was to align the two rates to avoid that happening (and raise GST to recover the revenue).

I think that is correct Mully (30%). Hence the move to lower company tax rate to 30% as well...

[spajohn]

Don't forget there are other incentives for trusts...ie to stop the ex-wife/husband taking your assets you had before she/he came along, or losing the family home when some dodgy investment company nicks off with your life savings. My point being they are not just for undesirable sods avoiding stuff, and there is valid use for protecting the welfare of your family in this day of civil lawsuits and scheisters trying to rort you.

[rainman]

Basically (and generalising) it's because Labour Voters pay very little income tax (vis. "Working for Families"), and some GST - whereas most National voters pay both.


Yeap has been happening in NZ for decades under Labour leadership but National have said they will fix it, good on them.

The tax on trust is something ridiculous like 5% (not 100% sure) so if I have an investment property, open a trust, I become a trustee, put the house under it and I save thousands.

So it was you voters Don Brash was recently referring to? :)


...bridge the gap between us and other countries like Auzzie.

What makes you thin we a) can catch Aussie, and b) should?

[Mudfart]

Not only is it an incentive to save and move the nation towards being more aware of saving up and not living on credit.

It also helps retain our highly skilled, highly educated people in the country which we need if we are to bridge the gap between us and other countries like Auzzie.

lol when a person receives a higher education, the first thing they learn is, "I can make more money overseas", so they bugger off. I can see the incentive towards saving though, I certainly don't want to buy anything brand new ever again once GST hits 15%.
Hopefully (for the bike shops) it wont be before start of next summer, when i get my full and a bigger bike. I'm looking at something around 16g. gsxr750, zx6r, daytona etc...

[Mudfart]

no no no, the thing peeps do with investment properties these days is start a company to manage the property(s). Then they get all the tax benefits of running a business. Trusts are for getting more involved with hiding funds, for the likes of polititians.

[mynameis]

So it was you voters Don Brash was recently referring to? :)



What makes you thin we a) can catch Aussie, and b) should?

There's your problem right there selective reading.

I said if we are to not that we will catch them but there's lots of reasons to, hence the government(s) of the past have been trying to.

Some of it include better standard of living, better pay and that's partially the reason behind mass migration of Kiwi's to Auzzie Land.


lol when a person receives a higher education, the first thing they learn is, "I can make more money overseas", so they bugger off. I can see the incentive towards saving though, I certainly don't want to buy anything brand new ever again once GST hits 15%.
Hopefully (for the bike shops) it wont be before start of next summer, when i get my full and a bigger bike. I'm looking at something around 16g. gsxr750, zx6r, daytona etc...

For starters you don't just queue up like you do at Mackers for your higher education so you don't receive it, you work hard for it.

Like many others in this country I'd say I fall under "Highly Educated" - Degree and above and have travelled and worked overseas but choose to stay here in NZ because it's home and like no other place in the world.

You don't have to go far to realise that.

[rainman]

I said if we are to not that we will catch them but there's lots of reasons to, hence the government(s) of the past have been trying to.

Some of it include better standard of living, better pay and that's partially the reason behind mass migration of Kiwi's to Auzzie Land.


So, do you think we can catch Aussie or not? I take it from your comments above you think we should. And if it's better pay that drives migration (better standard of living sorta follows from that), and we should be aiming to reduce migration, what should the government do to increase wages in NZ? (Which I do think is a good idea).

Not living on credit is a lofty ideal too (mentioned in your earlier comment). What should the government do to stop people living on credit?

[Winston001]

Im a man of logic most times. Where is the sense in raising GST, ACC, and all the other things the NAts are going to hit us on, yet claiming to lower personal tax?
Why not leave personal tax where it is, and not raise the other taxes by so much?
Do they know how much it costs to change up all this shit?
.

There are 2.1 million workers paying tax in NZ, supporting 4 million people. GST is a spending tax which means it is spread across all 4 million because everyone spends money. Its also a kind of voluntary tax - if you save instead of spending, you don't pay it.


IIRC, (and I'm only a bush lawyer), the tax on trust income is 30% - so the guys paying the top rate (39%) end up running all their income through a family trust. I thought the idea was to align the two rates to avoid that happening (and raise GST to recover the revenue).

NO. Company tax is 30% and trustee tax 33%. Some people do operate businesses through trusts and avoid the 39% tax bracket but its only 6c saved and hardly worth the bother. Besides you are far better using a company now and people have done that for 100 years.

What the govt are also proposing is removing the depreciation allowance on investment properties. Its not a lot of money but since many recent property buyers have been relying on tax loses, its going to hurt some.

[Pascal]

Or are the only people who get further tax cuts, going to be the wealthy again?

Aren't they just about the only ones paying tax anyway?

But you asked where the sense is in raising GST and lowering income tax? People who are not prolifegate spenders will have more cash in hand to save, pay off their mortages and so forth. GST is also a fairer tax as it cannot be evaded.

[oldrider]

Was this meant to be in the "sayings" thread in Jokes??
Can't give you bling but point taken! :o

[mynameis]

So, do you think we can catch Aussie or not? I take it from your comments above you think we should. And if it's better pay that drives migration (better standard of living sorta follows from that), and we should be aiming to reduce migration, what should the government do to increase wages in NZ? (Which I do think is a good idea).

Not living on credit is a lofty ideal too (mentioned in your earlier comment). What should the government do to stop people living on credit?

Aah selective reading/quoting at its best - again. None the less.

Your questions are basically asking how long a piece of string is. Unfortunately there isn't any magic wand the govt of the day can wave around and fix it like that.

Simply put it this way, the gap has always been there and based on both the countries economic growth, development and performance from the past and to date one can only say that we can try and address certain issues within our abilities to ensure the gap doesn't further increase. I.e. the above initiative by the government to reduce income tax of higher earners is an incentive to retain our highly educated/highly skilled people in the country.

I think even John Key stated that the gap will remain there. Australia is a much larger economy than NZ and there are certain areas where we simply cannot compete therefore cannot compare. We shouldn't be aiming to reduce migration, I am more than happy for dole bludging NZer's to move to Auz and claim their dole. (Since it's so easy there and the govt just gives money away). By the way they are called Mozzies - Maori Auzzies :lol: and when they move there their accent also changes in 6 months :laugh:

If you think about the govts plan as you ask "what should the government do to increase wages in NZ" increased wages means more money in the pocket, tax cuts also means more money in the pocket (For some). What I meant by not living in credit is better management of your cash - a lot of Kiwis are simply useless at it and the amount of debt we have as a tiny nation is very high. If you've got a mortgage you've got one.

But what kills it is people living way beyond their means and putting everything on finance @ 20%. That's just silly in my opinion.

[Pascal]

But what kills it is people living way beyond their means and putting everything on finance @ 20%. That's just silly in my opinion.

I'm not convinced it's a government's job to fix stupidity. There are sufficient programs available from Sorted through to budgeting advice directly from WINZ that people who are willing to manage their finances can, with help.

[Mully]

I'm not convinced it's a government's job to fix stupidity.

I agree - but then I'm not convinced this is stupidity as much as ignorance.

Whether it's caused by the "instant gratification" generation is up for debate.

And normally, I'd be the first one to hold parent's accountable for their children not understanding the folly of compound interest and whatnot - but if parents can't/wont educate their kids on finances, should the State (schools) step in.

Often, an 18 year old gets to Uni (or their first job) and their Bank kindly steps in with an overdraft facility/Credit Card/Personal Loan.

[Pascal]

I agree - but then I'm not convinced this is stupidity as much as ignorance.

I seem to recall a similar discussion in one of the many other GST threads. Stupidity is perhaps a bit harsh, because I'm struggling to fit myself into the shoes of somebody who is older than 16 and doesn't know that badly geared debt is bad and that there is a little mouse on television that will help you organise your finances to achieve your goals.

It would be good to have more real world skills in schools though. When I hit my first paying job it was difficult adjusting to money and I made a lot of really, really dumb mistakes. Part of it not listening / understanding what my parents had tried to teach me, part of it the iWant devil and part of it simply not realising what I was getting myself into.

[mynameis]

I'm not convinced it's a government's job to fix stupidity. There are sufficient programs available from Sorted through to budgeting advice directly from WINZ that people who are willing to manage their finances can, with help.

+1 I agree with you.

[rainman]

Aah selective reading/quoting at its best - again. None the less.

How exactly am I selectively quoting you when I quote your entire comment but for your previously unfounded claim of selective quoting? Idiot.


Your questions are basically asking how long a piece of string is.

Reading comprehension, you need to work on it.


Unfortunately there isn't any magic wand the govt of the day can wave around and fix it like that.

Well, what do you understand their job to be then? I prefer my politicians to be accountable, thanks.

As to the rest of your post, you're saying the gap will always be there, and thus we won't catch up. So the much-trumpeted plan to catch Aussie, which the Nats are paying good money to cretins like Brash to work on (talk about bludging) is doomed to fail, but it's all right, because no-one thought it would work anyway and isn't he nice, that nice Mr Key?

If only there were some intelligent right wingers in this country.

[Coldrider]

Bridging the gap with Aussi by 2025 is a smoke screen for politicians to not focus on todays problems today.
How many of the politicians promoting such will be around in 2025 to be held accountable?
Bridging the gap with Aussie is but a $99 Jetstar airfare away.

[pete376403]

Aussie is always going to have the advantage of being able to dig up large amounts of countryside and sell it to China and India. NZ has nothing comparable to the vast reserves of iron, coal, bauxite, uranium, etc., that Aussie has. As long as there is that difference, Aus will always be a wealthier country, able to afford a higher standard of living.

[Winston001]

Simply put it this way, the gap has always been there and based on both the countries economic growth, development and performance from the past and to date one can only say that we can try and address certain issues within our abilities to ensure the gap doesn't further increase. I.e. the above initiative by the government to reduce income tax of higher earners is an incentive to retain our highly educated/highly skilled people in the country.

I think even John Key stated that the gap will remain there. Australia is a much larger economy than NZ and there are certain areas where we simply cannot compete therefore cannot compare......

This is one of those truisms which most people believe but is actually wrong. Prior to 1970 the $NZ was worth more than the $A - our economy was valued higher. In 1973 $NZ1 = $US1.19. We were well above the US dollar.

Switzerland with no minerals at all and no natural resources (except tourism) has a much stronger currency than Australia. For that matter Norway Sweden, Finland and Denmark have very strong economies and currencies, with the only significant resource being oil off the coast of Norway.

So it's not at all impossible for a secure island nation in the south pacific to attain economic security. If we have a problem its that we've lost our vigour, our drive to stand up for ourselves. The other problem IMHO is that we are not an homogeneous society. Instead we are composed of splinter groups who argue with each other. We do not work well together.

[rainman]

So it's not at all impossible for a secure island nation in the south pacific to attain economic security. If we have a problem its that we've lost our vigour, our drive to stand up for ourselves. The other problem IMHO is that we are not an homogeneous society. Instead we are composed of splinter groups who argue with each other. We do not work well together.

Indeed, and well put.

[Pascal]

So it's not at all impossible for a secure island nation in the south pacific to attain economic security. If we have a problem its that we've lost our vigour, our drive to stand up for ourselves. The other problem IMHO is that we are not an homogeneous society. Instead we are composed of splinter groups who argue with each other. We do not work well together.

Any theories as to why?

[slofox]

Prior to 1970 the $NZ was worth more than the $A - our economy was valued higher. In 1973 $NZ1 = $US1.19. We were well above the US dollar.

Switzerland with no minerals at all and no natural resources (except tourism) has a much stronger currency than Australia. For that matter Norway Sweden, Finland and Denmark have very strong economies and currencies, with the only significant resource being oil off the coast of Norway.

So it's not at all impossible for a secure island nation in the south pacific to attain economic security. If we have a problem its that we've lost our vigour, our drive to stand up for ourselves. The other problem IMHO is that we are not an homogeneous society. Instead we are composed of splinter groups who argue with each other. We do not work well together.

Prior to the 1970's and the EEC agreement, we rode on the back of British imports of our produce - at inflated prices at that. Britain joining Europe put paid to all that and IMO it has been all downhill since then. I'm not sure we have lost our vigour as you put it - I am not sure we ever had any back then either... Essentially, we were subsidised by Britain.

[mynameis]

How exactly am I selectively quoting you when I quote your entire comment but for your previously unfounded claim of selective quoting? Idiot.



Reading comprehension, you need to work on it.



Well, what do you understand their job to be then? I prefer my politicians to be accountable, thanks.

As to the rest of your post, you're saying the gap will always be there, and thus we won't catch up. So the much-trumpeted plan to catch Aussie, which the Nats are paying good money to cretins like Brash to work on (talk about bludging) is doomed to fail, but it's all right, because no-one thought it would work anyway and isn't he nice, that nice Mr Key?

If only there were some intelligent right wingers in this country.

Hmmm right lets see who the Idiot is here with comprehension problems:

My original post:


Not only is it an incentive to save and move the nation towards being more aware of saving up and not living on credit.

It also helps retain our highly skilled, highly educated people in the country which we need if we are to bridge the gap between us and other countries like Auzzie.

Your selective quote and reply:


So it was you voters Don Brash was recently referring to? :)

...bridge the gap between us and other countries like Auzzie.

What makes you thin we a) can catch Aussie, and b) should?

In the nutshell if you can't even read and understand your own posts and others and don't know what you're quoting/not quoting or replying, chances of you being taken seriously is low.




Well, what do you understand their job to be then? I prefer my politicians to be accountable, thanks.



If your understanding of what the governments roles and responsibilities are so poor than there might be no point in replying to your posts but the politicians and government cannot be accountable for EVERYTHING that happens in our country.

Let me give you can example: Terrorists acts in US, our government has almost no control over it yet global terrorism affects us, financially and in other ways as well.

Now go on show your level of knowledge by asking how how how?? :D





As to the rest of your post, you're saying the gap will always be there, and thus we won't catch up. So the much-trumpeted plan to catch Aussie, which the Nats are paying good money to cretins like Brash to work on (talk about bludging) is doomed to fail, but it's all right, because no-one thought it would work anyway and isn't he nice, that nice Mr Key?

If only there were some intelligent right wingers in this country.



Again lets see who cannot read and understand and has comprehension problems.

I never said we won't catch up, I just said the government is taking measures to ensure the gap doesn't increase further. I never commented about whether it will close, remain the same or increase.




If only there were some intelligent right wingers in this country.



I take it you have something against educated, well paid right wingers since you're not one.

[rainman]

Hmmm right lets see who the Idiot is here with comprehension problems

Why I am bothering with this I will never know, but...



My original post:


My question regarding selective quoting was about your second post I replied to, not the original one. Not that I think I was selectively quoting in the first case, but it is obvious I cannot be in the second case.


politicians and government cannot be accountable for EVERYTHING that happens in our country.

But they do have to do their job - and economic performance is a key part of that job. Besides, the Nats have set this up as their own mission - the Brash taskforce and all that - so it is quite reasonable to hold them to account for failing to deliver on their own goals, rather than giving them an open free pass because you voted for them and don't want to feel like an idiot for doing so.

I don't think we can easily catch up with Australia now - too little real economy left after the last lot of free-market "reforms" and privatisations - and that the whole "catch Aussie by 2025" narrative is just a smokescreen for the Nats to pull through a bunch of further changes that will benefit them and their mates, but further ruin the country. I note with some dismay that people like you soak this crap up like it was gospel from on high. My initial questions to you were intended to provoke your thinking in the direction of possibly considering that you're being sold a crock of shit, but it's clear this is a lost cause, and I'll leave you to your misguided bliss.


I never said we won't catch up, I just said the government is taking measures to ensure the gap doesn't increase further. I never commented about whether it will close, remain the same or increase.

True, you very neatly didn't take a stand on the issue, despite that being the essence of what I was asking you. But you did say:
"the gap has always been there" - as others have pointed out, not true.
"I think even John Key stated that the gap will remain there." - a reasonable reading of this is you think we can never catch Australia in economic performance terms. The gap has always been there and even JK thinks it will remain. Perhaps if you disagreed with this you might have said "JK think it will stay but I disagree..."

Given you were using this as a core plank of your defence of increasing GST and lowering taxes for the rich, I'm afraid your argument, such as it was, loses some vigour.

Incidentally, I think the tax issue is one NZ is heading in completely the wrong direction on. As the boomers start to retire and demand more services we should be raising taxes for a while until that cohort passes through the system. Possibly (and very carefully and selectively) lowering services too, once again for a while. At the same time, of course, we should be preparing to be a whole lot poorer as the world starts being forced down a path of reduced ready energy availability, but that's another whole different issue.


I take it you have something against educated, well paid right wingers since you're not one.

Intelligence, not education. Indeed I am not an educated, well paid right winger. I am university educated, have at times been very well paid - currently I'm adequately paid, and depending on contract work volume as the market picks up, that might change back to well paid - but I am by no means a right winger. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt - but then I grew up.

[Pascal]

I don't think we can easily catch up with Australia now - too little real economy left after the last lot of free-market "reforms" and privatisations - and that the whole "catch Aussie by 2025" narrative is just a smokescreen for the Nats to pull through a bunch of further changes that will benefit them and their mates, but further ruin the country. I note with some dismay that people like you soak this crap up like it was gospel from on high. My initial questions to you were intended to provoke your thinking in the direction of possibly considering that you're being sold a crock of shit, but it's clear this is a lost cause, and I'll leave you to your misguided bliss.

Objectivity is under O in the dictionary.

[rainman]

Objectivity is under O in the dictionary.

So it is, although I'm unsure as to why I should particularly care.

Or perhaps you were looking for Randian Objectivism?

[Pascal]

So it is, although I'm unsure as to why I should particularly care.

Because you are lacking it? Consider for a moment that you are lambasting the current government for lack of economic progress within a year whilst coming out of a recession and with a serious budget deficit courtesy of our previous masters. Yet, can you point me at a quote from yourself criticising the previous Green / Labour government for their lack of real economic progress during a time of international high economic growth with record surpluses?

[rainman]

Because you are lacking it?

Um, dude, this is politics - an arena where subjective opinions are to be expected. Or do you mean the Kiwi concept of "balance" - where if I say something bad about one group I must say the same about another, otherwise "it's not fair"? If so, get a grip.


Consider for a moment that you are lambasting the current government for lack of economic progress within a year whilst coming out of a recession and with a serious budget deficit courtesy of our previous masters. Yet, can you point me at a quote from yourself criticising the previous Green / Labour government for their lack of real economic progress during a time of international high economic growth with record surpluses?

Fair enough, I should probably give the Nats a chance to achieve something. Problem is that achievement is usually correlated with action, and Mr Relaxed of Wellington has such a laissez-faire hands-off approach (even to his mythical cycleway) that it doesn't take a genius to figure out fuck-all is going to happen other than the predictable rorting and pillaging. Thus my point about catching Aussie - it's a crock, a smokescreen put up to provide an excuse for them to rape the country once more for the benefit of the wealthy, and the idiots around here who feel they are "wealthy" because they doing just a bit better than their peers stand by and glibly wave them onward. Key and his happy cronies are continuing the policies and practices that have failed elsewhere - perhaps because it suits them personally, perhaps because they're just damned incompetent.

I have certainly criticised the previous government for lack of sufficient long-term development and planning - I am not a Labour supporter (but would pick Cullen over English any day of the week). But they were different times - relative plenty rather than the second great depression, just about, so calling for different actions. (In the case of this lot, some action). I have certainly sent emails to MPs encouraging them to address various issues, even with suggestions as to how to do it. These have often been critical of their current performance. And sure, Labour did not do everything right, and they are also captured by ideology to a degree, but at least they applied some intellect to the process.

I don't generally criticise the Greens over economic issues because a) I think the Green New Deal plan they put up has real merit, and b) they will never be able to meaningfully affect core economic policy anyway.

[Mudfart]

theres not much point in getting worked up about the Nats, or Natzis, (lol thats a great new name for them aye?), if NZ wins the rugby world cup, the Natzis will ride the joyous spirit and national celebration all the way to the ballot boxes.
This despite the fact that the majority of voters are getting raped in the rusty sherriffs badge every payday, petrol fill up, vehicle rego time, PAYE, GST etc... Now how does that work? The minority of rich population are convincing the majority of middle class voters to go with the natzis? I smell a rat, because when nats won the last election, I asked loads of people who they voted for and at least 75% said labour or anyone OTHER than Natzi party. And I DONT only hang out with labour voters. Its just Natzi supporters are sooooo rare. So hard to find......

[Oscar]

theres not much point in getting worked up about the Nats, or Natzis, (lol thats a great new name for them aye?), if NZ wins the rugby world cup, the Natzis will ride the joyous spirit and national celebration all the way to the ballot boxes.
This despite the fact that the majority of voters are getting raped in the rusty sherriffs badge every payday, petrol fill up, vehicle rego time, PAYE, GST etc... Now how does that work? The minority of rich population are convincing the majority of middle class voters to go with the natzis? I smell a rat, because when nats won the last election, I asked loads of people who they voted for and at least 75% said labour or anyone OTHER than Natzi party. And I DONT only hang out with labour voters. Its just Natzi supporters are sooooo rare. So hard to find......

Natzi?
How droll...I bet your head hurt after coming up with that one?

It's amazing how after nine years of Labour, everything is the current Govt's fault after only 15 months. Short attention span, huh?


Ps. It's spelled "eh".

[Mudfart]

Natzi?
How droll...I bet your head hurt after coming up with that one?

It's amazing how after nine years of Labour, everything is the current Govt's fault after only 15 months. Short attention span, huh?


Ps. It's spelled "eh".


no, i made it one the fly as I was typing. My head only hurts after I quailfy genius on the intelligence quotient tests we all invariably have to partake in. sorry if you don't understand A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G of what has just been stated, I forgive you for being from the shallow end of the gene pool, but not for being a Natzi. You can play the blame game back to the first elected party, are you sure Labour wasn't already elected onto a sunk Natzi vessel, I mean I DO remember the Natzi party introducing individual employment contracts back in the early 90's. Gee that really destroyed the unions in the workplace. And back in those days I wasn't considered responsible enough to vote, however I imagine I was better informed than many of your fellow shallow end waders.
Best make sure you got your water wings on Jimmy, we don't want you drowning, in the knee deep water............So whats spelled eh?
Is that the sound the primate made when he slipped one passed your mums goalie?

[Oscar]

no, i made it one the fly as I was typing. My head only hurts after I quailfy genius on the intelligence quotient tests we all invariably have to partake in. sorry if you don't understand A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G of what has just been stated, I forgive you for being from the shallow end of the gene pool, but not for being a Natzi. You can play the blame game back to the first elected party, are you sure Labour wasn't already elected onto a sunk Natzi vessel, I mean I DO remember the Natzi party introducing individual employment contracts back in the early 90's. Gee that really destroyed the unions in the workplace. And back in those days I wasn't considered responsible enough to vote, however I imagine I was better informed than many of your fellow shallow end waders.
Best make sure you got your water wings on Jimmy, we don't want you drowning, in the knee deep water............So whats spelled eh?
Is that the sound the primate made when he slipped one passed your mums goalie?

Jeez, you might wanna up that Ritalin dose and clean the spittle off of your monitor there, Bub. For a genius, you're not making a whole lot of sense.

[mynameis]

Why I am bothering with this I will never know, but...



My question regarding selective quoting was about your second post I replied to, not the original one. Not that I think I was selectively quoting in the first case, but it is obvious I cannot be in the second case.



But they do have to do their job - and economic performance is a key part of that job. Besides, the Nats have set this up as their own mission - the Brash taskforce and all that - so it is quite reasonable to hold them to account for failing to deliver on their own goals, rather than giving them an open free pass because you voted for them and don't want to feel like an idiot for doing so.

I don't think we can easily catch up with Australia now - too little real economy left after the last lot of free-market "reforms" and privatisations - and that the whole "catch Aussie by 2025" narrative is just a smokescreen for the Nats to pull through a bunch of further changes that will benefit them and their mates, but further ruin the country. I note with some dismay that people like you soak this crap up like it was gospel from on high. My initial questions to you were intended to provoke your thinking in the direction of possibly considering that you're being sold a crock of shit, but it's clear this is a lost cause, and I'll leave you to your misguided bliss.



True, you very neatly didn't take a stand on the issue, despite that being the essence of what I was asking you. But you did say:
"the gap has always been there" - as others have pointed out, not true.
"I think even John Key stated that the gap will remain there." - a reasonable reading of this is you think we can never catch Australia in economic performance terms. The gap has always been there and even JK thinks it will remain. Perhaps if you disagreed with this you might have said "JK think it will stay but I disagree..."

Given you were using this as a core plank of your defence of increasing GST and lowering taxes for the rich, I'm afraid your argument, such as it was, loses some vigour.

Incidentally, I think the tax issue is one NZ is heading in completely the wrong direction on. As the boomers start to retire and demand more services we should be raising taxes for a while until that cohort passes through the system. Possibly (and very carefully and selectively) lowering services too, once again for a while. At the same time, of course, we should be preparing to be a whole lot poorer as the world starts being forced down a path of reduced ready energy availability, but that's another whole different issue.



Intelligence, not education. Indeed I am not an educated, well paid right winger. I am university educated, have at times been very well paid - currently I'm adequately paid, and depending on contract work volume as the market picks up, that might change back to well paid - but I am by no means a right winger. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt - but then I grew up.




Why I am bothering with this I will never know, but...



The only thing you've got right. You need to get out of that dark cardboard box and get real.




But they do have to do their job - and economic performance is a key part of that job. Besides, the Nats have set this up as their own mission - the Brash taskforce and all that - so it is quite reasonable to hold them to account for failing to deliver on their own goals, rather than giving them an open free pass because you voted for them and don't want to feel like an idiot for doing so.



I think it's people like you who should feel like complete dicks for allowing to make a mess of NZ with 9 years of lazy Labour who have encouraged a generation of bum to breed on free money and know nothing about personal responsibility.

If you know about NZ politics and history you'll realise most governments do fail to deliver some things that they promise to deliver on.




I don't think we can easily catch up with Australia now - too little real economy left after the last lot of free-market "reforms" and privatisations - and that the whole "catch Aussie by 2025" narrative is just a smokescreen for the Nats to pull through a bunch of further changes that will benefit them and their mates, but further ruin the country. I note with some dismay that people like you soak this crap up like it was gospel from on high. My initial questions to you were intended to provoke your thinking in the direction of possibly considering that you're being sold a crock of shit, but it's clear this is a lost cause, and I'll leave you to your misguided bliss.



Here we go again, you really don't know what you're talking about. First you say "people like you soak this crap up like it was gospel from on high" then you say "True, you very neatly didn't take a stand on the issue" :laugh:

You're starting to sound more like a fool, make up your mind which one is it?????

And No I didn't vote them in because Nats said they will close the gap between us and Auzzie, I would have rather packed and moved to Auz like a lot of my family and friends have.




Incidentally, I think the tax issue is one NZ is heading in completely the wrong direction on. As the boomers start to retire and demand more services we should be raising taxes for a while until that cohort passes through the system. Possibly (and very carefully and selectively) lowering services too, once again for a while. At the same time, of course, we should be preparing to be a whole lot poorer as the world starts being forced down a path of reduced ready energy availability, but that's another whole different issue.



Raise taxes further? What are you talking about? What did the thieving Labour government for 9 years do with all that high tax money? Take the country further into deficit.

Do you actually know what the government is doing about energy for the next 5 years?

[Coldrider]

Was the pollies promise to close the gap or increase the gap with Aussie by 2025?

Ah well with all the hot air in the last 12 months the gap has increased.
Average inflation adjusted wage in NZ up 2.86%, Aust 3.6% from a higher wage.

[Oscar]

Was the pollies promise to close the gap or increase the gap with Aussie by 2025?

Ah well with all the hot air in the last 12 months the gap has increased.
Average inflation adjusted wage in NZ up 2.86%, Aust 3.6% from a higher wage.

I'd be interested to see a cost of living comparison.

[Coldrider]

I'd be interested to see a cost of living comparison.I am sure you could research one yourself for your own standard of living if you are really interested.

[Oscar]

I am sure you could research one yourself for your own standard of living if you are really interested.

Yeah, I was kinda thinking out loud.
I spend a bit of time in Aussie, and I really like the place, but I'm not sure I could live there.
There is something big and brash about not only the place, but the people, too.

[Coldrider]

Yeah, I was kinda thinking out loud.
I spend a bit of time in Aussie, and I really like the place, but I'm not sure I could live there.
There is something big and brash about not only the place, but the people, too.I know what you mean, now if I was 20 again I'd be off. When money isn't a problem, NZ is like no other.

[Boob Johnson]

Not only is it an incentive to save and move the nation towards being more aware of saving up and not living on credit.

It also helps retain our highly skilled, highly educated people in the country which we need if we are to bridge the gap between us and other countries like Auzzie.

^^ exactly. So it means we can save more or buy more of what pleases you on top of all the other positive spin offs, so whats the problem? Why do low income earners expect to save HUGE amounts of tax when they don't pay HUGE amounts of tax? Or is this just a general moan about being poor?

Not sure what the gripe is when a tax cut will cover the upping of GST? Other than people like to gripe at the gubbermint before there is even a gripe!