Should you cut leathers off?

[Toast]

The following is taken from the April issue of Superbike mag, written as part of an article about crashing and the effects of different gear by an Irish doctor who is part of the racer-care unit of the MCUI (Motorcycle Union of Ireland). I found it quite enlightening! Does anyone know what the standard procedure that trackside ambo officers here take in the event of a rider in too much pain or shock to take his leathers off?

“The answer is an emphatic “No!” at the side of the track.

Leathers are good at preventing injuries, they are also excellent at containing them. A fractured pelvis can hold most of a rider’s blood volume, and a fractured femur up to or over a litre of blood on either side; so either injury is potentially life threatening.

Leathers - if they fit well - are excellent at preventing fracture displacement and hence minimise bleeding. Leaving leathers on when a rider has a broken pelvis or multiple lower leg fracture is essential. We have seen a rider go from awake and talking to a full blown cardiac arrest after his leathers were cut off, unmasking and unsplinting his broken pelvis.”

[Biggles08]

Do you know if they cut Jamie's off at Manfield? Makes sense when you think about it.

[Kiwi Graham]

Had mine cut off in 97, prior to them being cut off my arm just ached afterwards it was fukin agony. They cut them off in the ambo then drove to hosp, I could only get comfortable by cuddling my own arm. The gas made me feel sick and they didnt want me to have anything else untill after I was seen.
Bones were sticking out but they wern't bleeding much. I guess they needed to see if anything needed stabalising before being transported.

[quickbuck]

Do you know if they cut Jamie's off at Manfield? Makes sense when you think about it.
Not sure.
I left too early to pick up broken bike parts... and another bike in Turn 1.

They may have from a comment that was made Re injury.....

Toast,
Thanks for the post.
Good food for thought in the future....
Most people think it is because they are worth so much (yeah right, compared to the $20k bike you just binned....), however injury containment (Like the Helmet) makes sense....

[Skunk]

I would guess they cut them off to assess the injury. I'd think they know all about the compression benefits.

[jasonu]

If they do have to cut them MAKE SURE THEY DON'T CUT ANY ZIPS!!!

[Foxzee]

Do you know if they cut Jamie's off at Manfield? Makes sense when you think about it.

Yes they did but not entirely until the 3rd Ambulance got there that had the proper equipment to deal with the injuries and other equipment should it have been needed. Jamie was in very good hands

[MSTRS]

Yes they did but not entirely until the 3rd Ambulance got there that had the proper equipment to deal with the injuries and other equipment should it have been needed. Jamie was in very good hands

Correct. The first responders cut up one arm to get at a vein to get a canella in. They then determined that Jamie was overheating but couldn't raise his shoulders off the ground, so they cut up the other arm. They also cut off his right boot to check foot movement etc. After the advanced paramedic arrived and did his assessment of Jamie, he decided to cut the leathers off altogether and wrap his pevis to immobilise and then bound both legs together from just above the knees down, before getting him on split-board to get him on a stretcher bed to transport him.
They did nothing without checking how Jamie was reacting, at every step of the way.

[avgas]

Cut leathers - or amputate head I say.

[yungatart]

The decision to cut leathers off or not should only be made by a professional, not some flaggy with a first aid certificate.
Leave that stuff up to the ambos, that is what they are trained for.

[Hitcher]

“The answer is an emphatic “No!” at the side of the track.”

What's the purpose of this thread? Surely the people most likely to be removing apparel from motorcyclists who crash and injure themselves at trackdays are trained paramedics -- people who should know what they're doing? If your average trackday rider starts whipping injured people's kit off, they should be shot. Surely?

[Quasievil]

Yes cut them off and destroy them so they are no longer usable...............ever!!!!

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[sinned]

What's the purpose of this thread? Surely the people most likely to be removing apparel from motorcyclists who crash and injure themselves at trackdays are trained paramedics -- people who should know what they're doing? If your average trackday rider starts whipping injured people's kit off, they should be shot. Surely?

What is the purpose of most threads on KB? :innocent: :yes: :gob: :shit: :Punk: :shutup: Plenty of :shit: to read.

[R6_kid]

What's the purpose of this thread? Surely the people most likely to be removing apparel from motorcyclists who crash and injure themselves at trackdays are trained paramedics -- people who should know what they're doing? If your average trackday rider starts whipping injured people's kit off, they should be shot. Surely?

To promote discussion? To inform people that maybe cutting away leathers ASAP isn't always the best move? You've become a bit of a whiny old git lately.

What about a situation where the paramedics aren't there within a few minutes - you're the only one capable of doing first aid, surely you'd want to know what the right thing to do was? Or would you just rush in willy nilly and cause more damage than perhaps doing nothing at all.

[wharfy]

To promote discussion? To inform people that maybe cutting away leathers ASAP isn't always the best move? You've become a bit of a whiny old git lately.

What about a situation where the paramedics aren't there within a few minutes - you're the only one capable of doing first aid, surely you'd want to know what the right thing to do was? Or would you just rush in willy nilly and cause more damage than perhaps doing nothing at all.

It's a long time since I did a first aid course, but generally doing nothing is a good start. Then have a good look before you touch anything if they are consious ask some questions to find out what they think is working/not working or hurting. If they are unconsious carefully check breathing and pulse, if they are not breathing carefully remove their helmet and do CPR - if they are not breathing and you do nothing they will die for sure so the risk of doing more damage is worth taking. Get some proffessionals there ASAP !!
I think I better do a refresher course

[Toot Toot]

This is a simple issue that can become overcomplicated if you are not careful. The article raises a few tried and tested arguments Toast, but none that a majority of the bikers here need to worry about. I cannot speak for the rest of the country but Auckland and Paeroa races are attended by extremlely competant and experienced paramedics who are specialists in motorsport, are very well trained and have been doing it a long time. These guys full time jobs are front line Paramedics, not volunteers. The team leader has been in this job for over 25 years and is highly sought after both here in NZ and overseas (as are a few of us). The decision to cut leathers off or not to is made after a reasonably thorough (albeit quick) assessment. More times than not it is favourable to remove them. If the rider can do this themselves that is good. If they cannot then they will be cut. They need to be exposed to properly assess for their injury status. It is EXTREMELY rare, that the removal of leathers will contribute to their condition worsening. Fractured pelvis' are very difficult to detect while tight fitting leathers are in place. If one is highly suspected they can be left on, or if removed there are methods to contain the injury afterwards.

I have never heard of anyone dying solely because a paramedic removed leathers, on the contrary I know of cases where the opposite is true, life threatening injuries missed because the leathers are left in place. The odds are FAR in favour of taking them off.

[Frenchy]

Nicki read that article out to me last (I cant raed or tpye) and we had a bit of a chat about it and we both agreed with what toot toot said about it being hard to tell what injuries a rider has while they have them on, and is better to asses the damage with them off...
it did make me think twice tho

[Gremlin]

Being in the racing forum, I wouldn't expect anyone but paramedics needing to make the call, being a race with medics on site, and they are well qualified to make their decision. Someone said remove their helmet which is definitely not good advice. Only rider or medics remove helmet, marshals will loosen the strap.

[Jantar]

If you consider the priorities for treating an accident victim, after airways, breathing and circulation its bleeding. Fractures are lower down the list than bleeding. If bleeding can be assessed and contained with leathers in place, then don't touch them. However if you see bright arterial blood coming out the leg of the leathers and you cant see exactly where the wound is then cut them asap and get pressure applied directly to the wound.

Fractures will cause severe pain, bleeding will cause death.

[Toot Toot]

I If bleeding can be assessed and contained with leathers in place, then don't touch them.

You got X-ray eyes??

[Jantar]

You got X-ray eyes?? No. But most leathers have zips that can be undone to give a pretty good look at what's happening inside. Its only if bleeding cannot be assesed with the leathers in place then they should be cut off. In no circumstances should you attempt to remove leathers by simply undoing them and pulling them off. Leave up up to the person wearing them (if they are capable of doing that then the leathers don't need cutting anyway.)

[Toot Toot]

No. But most leathers have ..........

Thanks for your input, I think I know what I'm doing. Your intentions are good but leave the advice to the experts. A little bit of good information delivered badly s dangerous in these situations, its not a game of Yahtzee were playing here, your actions can have lethal repercutions.