Braided brake line standards [Archive]

Wonko

12th May 2005, 22:05

I took the bosses R100S Beemer for a WOF yesterday and it failed on the braided brake lines. I know that they are now meant to be up to standard due to a change in regulations a year ago. They have a crimped on tag at the top that reads "EARLS 29". After a google search, I take this to mean that they are made by Earls in the UK, but I am unable to find any spec's or standards that they comply to.

Mark at the GI Testing station said if I can prove that they are up to standard then he'll pass it, top bloke from the way he laid it out. Have fired off emails to the UK, and the USA distributers of Earls, but have yet to hear back from either. Can anyone help me out with this information, and proof too.

Cheers

FROSTY

12th May 2005, 22:19

are they standard fittings?
.

TwoSeven

12th May 2005, 22:32

I've noticed that, quite a few car places dont seem to know what the correct type of connectors are supposed to be. My understanding is crimped are ok, screw on ones are not.

Its the NZ law that is crap and its unlikely that Earls or anyone else will know anything about it. I've been told that goodridge hoses are out too, but it might just be the race only kits - the pre-mades might use the right connector.

Here is the current law on motorcycle brakes. Its pretty stupid.

http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/publications/vir-manual/motorcycles/mc-8-brakes-v2-1a.pdf

Ixion

12th May 2005, 22:36

Motu

12th May 2005, 22:45

Yep,of all the approved standards we are given an example of one.....guess what standard marking I want to see on your hoses?

Wonko

12th May 2005, 22:54

Frosty - to the best of my knowledge they are standard. Bike has done 44,000 miles, and has been in NZ for 10+ years, and the last 20,000 miles, imported from Hawaii. Boss has no memory of have had the lines changed.

Wonko

12th May 2005, 22:55

Yep,of all the approved standards we are given an example of one.....guess what standard marking I want to see on your hoses?

Now this is a hard one, but I'll take a stab at it, FMVSS-106?

Ixion

12th May 2005, 23:46

bugjuice

13th May 2005, 09:02

I've heard a couple of stories where one or two particular types of bikes have braided lines factory fitted. They were failed on their WOF and felt completely stuck. The nice man at the testing station (in the most subtle of pt) said to go back to the shop he bought it and buy the proper lines. durrrr.. they'll be braided too. I think in the end, he got a supporting letter from the manufacturer to say that the bike has braided lines as stock parts. Haven't heard anything about it since.

I had thought about saving up for braided lines. But then that means swapping the lines every time I need the get the WOF done. Hassle.. Are there any brands that do comply?

vifferman

13th May 2005, 09:34

I had thought about saving up for braided lines. But then that means swapping the lines every time I need the get the WOF done. Hassle.. Are there any brands that do comply?
Yup. As long as they've got the standard printed on the side, they're fine (unless you go somewhere where there's a really bureaucratic prat working).
I fitted BSR Aerotek lines to the 'Storm, because the standard brake lines were so awful. Went to Mt Eden to look at tyres, and Mike told me my pretty new lines were illegal. WTF?!? :mad:

So, 4 days after I fitted the new lines, I went to Kerry at Motohaus, and he replaced them with whatever he sells; I think (not sure) that they're HEL, with DOTxxxx summat printed all over the sheathing. No problems at all. Especially since Kerry does WOFs anyway. But they DO comply with the regs.

As a matter of interest, I felt that the Aeroteks were better quality fittings - they looked nicer, and had marginally better feel, possibly due to slightly smaller internal diameter. It was very tempting to just bodge up some markings on the sides that had the same compliance numbers...

This topic was actually my first posting, back in March 2004.

bugjuice

13th May 2005, 09:51

Yup. As long as they've got the standard printed on the side, they're fine (unless you go somewhere where there's a really bureaucratic prat working).
I fitted BSR Aerotek lines to the 'Storm, because the standard brake lines were so awful. Went to Mt Eden to look at tyres, and Mike told me my pretty new lines were illegal. WTF?!? :mad:

So, 4 days after I fitted the new lines, I went to Kerry at Motohaus, and he replaced them with whatever he sells; I think (not sure) that they're HEL, with DOTxxxx summat printed all over the sheathing. No problems at all. Especially since Kerry does WOFs anyway. But they DO comply with the regs.

As a matter of interest, I felt that the Aeroteks were better quality fittings - they looked nicer, and had marginally better feel, possibly due to slightly smaller internal diameter. It was very tempting to just bodge up some markings on the sides that had the same compliance numbers...

This topic was actually my first posting, back in March 2004.
Well I was going to buy some sexy ones from overseas, but looks like I'd either get screwed doing that, or have to change them back and forth every 6 months.. btw, is it only new/first reg vehicles that get a year long WOF?

As for the few 'compliant' lines out there (if there's more than one), how do we know that they are an upgrade to the current lines, and not just a swap or downgrade from slightly better rubber ones? Thus being limited in choice..

vifferman

13th May 2005, 09:57

btw, is it only new/first reg vehicles that get a year long WOF?
I think it's for the first 7 years, for new vehicles?
When I bought my '97 VTR (in 2004) it had a one-year WOF.

As for the few 'compliant' lines out there (if there's more than one), how do we know that they are an upgrade to the current lines, and not just a swap or downgrade from slightly better rubber ones? Thus being limited in choice..
I'm not sure what you mean.
If your brakes are working well, leave them alone.
I swapped the VTR's ones because (a) the rubber lines had too much flex, and (b) the OEM lines have a 1-into-2 setup with a 'hump' above the front mudguard, and bubbles tend to accumulate in the lines. It's very hard to bleed them properly, and I got tired of spongey brakes. Yes, they looked sexy too, but that was just a bonus, not the reason I fitted them.

If you want braided lines (for whatever reasons, e.g., to have some of a pretty colour, better feel, etc.), then just go to someone reputable to buy them. If it's someone like Kerry, you can trust him to not bullshit you about their merits, and tell you whether you're wasting your money.

pritch

13th May 2005, 10:01

Bugga!

I was thinking of getting Galfer stainless hoses. These kits are of Spanish manufacture and seem to be sold all over europe and the USA.

Guess I had better check that there is a standard of some sort quoted.

Motu

13th May 2005, 10:22

bugjuice

13th May 2005, 10:22

I'm not sure what you mean.
If your brakes are working well, leave them alone.
I swapped the VTR's ones because (a) the rubber lines had too much flex, and (b) the OEM lines have a 1-into-2 setup with a 'hump' above the front mudguard, and bubbles tend to accumulate in the lines. It's very hard to bleed them properly, and I got tired of spongey brakes. Yes, they looked sexy too, but that was just a bonus, not the reason I fitted them.

If you want braided lines (for whatever reasons, e.g., to have some of a pretty colour, better feel, etc.), then just go to someone reputable to buy them. If it's someone like Kerry, you can trust him to not bullshit you about their merits, and tell you whether you're wasting your money.
My brakes are pretty damn good as they are, but I want them to be http://www.fiftiesweb.com/pop/tony-new.gif grrrrrrrrrreat!!!!!!

How do I know that the replacement pipes I'm going to shell out on are better than the stock ones I have now? Just under constant heavy braking, they've had a bit of brake fade. I'm going to drain the pipes and put DOT5 in, and uprate the pads (discs are a fortune, like the lines, so those won't be for a little while). Plus, braided just look damn sexy

Motu - thanks for the info. Who's AVI? What's the process there then?
Cool on the 12mth warrent. Only change the lines once a year then...

Ixion

13th May 2005, 12:20

It's up to YOU ,the owner to prove beyond doubt that they comply - if you send the AVI off to do that job he can charge you for his time,it's not part of the WoF fee.All he has to say is it doesn't comply,then the job is in your hands - make sure they comply before you fit them.

Vehicles get a 12 mth WoF for 6 years after manufacter,it used to be only NZ new,but they have changed that to first rego anywhere.

Problem is, how do you prove it. I think that a lot of WOF testers have just adopted a "Braided lines are illegal" not being as clued up as Mr Motu.

And even if have DOT xxx stamped all over them , the tester probably doesn't have a clue what that means. All he knows is that braided lines are illegal.

If you get them from somewhere like Motohaus, they will be kosher, and Motohaus know that, so they'll give you a warrant OK. But what about in a couple of years time when you (or the guy you've sold the bike to) needs to go to another WOF agent. They don't know the history, but they do know that braided lines are illegal.

It's the same as lenses for lights, most testers just know that if it has letters stamped in it it's OK , otherwise it's illegal. The letters would say WANKER , but that'd be fine, 'cos it's got letters.

vifferman

13th May 2005, 12:31

How do I know that the replacement pipes I'm going to shell out on are better than the stock ones I have now? Just under constant heavy braking, they've had a bit of brake fade.
Then that's the pads, not the lines. All the lines do is eliminate some lever travel, if the stock lines have some give (flex) in them.

When I changed to braided lines on the VTR, it gave me less lever travel, good feel, and consistency. Putting new pads in as well gave me some extra bite, improved feel, and a headache. :whistle: But that's another (sad) story.

Motu

13th May 2005, 12:45

Problem is, how do you prove it. I think that a lot of WOF testers have just adopted a "Braided lines are illegal" not being as clued up as Mr Motu.

And even if have DOT xxx stamped all over them , the tester probably doesn't have a clue what that means. All he knows is that braided lines are illegal.

If you get them from somewhere like Motohaus, they will be kosher, and Motohaus know that, so they'll give you a warrant OK. But what about in a couple of years time when you (or the guy you've sold the bike to) needs to go to another WOF agent. They don't know the history, but they do know that braided lines are illegal.

It's the same as lenses for lights, most testers just know that if it has letters stamped in it it's OK , otherwise it's illegal. The letters would say WANKER , but that'd be fine, 'cos it's got letters.
Paper trails,paper trails,we are being trained to cover our arse with paper trails....follow the paper trail to the guy who will take the blame and pay the costs from his pocket.If you haven't got the piece of paper that absolves you and puts the blame on someone else you are in deep poo doo.If ever you get braided hoses keep the recept and make sure they write to what standard the hoses comply - wave it under the inspectors nose and you will fly through....he will note he has seen your piece of paper on his own piece of paper...and so the trail goes...whoever looses one part of the trail takes ALL the blame.So be it in this new age of no responsability.

bugjuice

13th May 2005, 13:21

Then that's the pads, not the lines. All the lines do is eliminate some lever travel, if the stock lines have some give (flex) in them.

When I changed to braided lines on the VTR, it gave me less lever travel, good feel, and consistency. Putting new pads in as well gave me some extra bite, improved feel, and a headache. :whistle: But that's another (sad) story.
ok, I kinda miss-explained that. The lines aren't the reason for the fade, I know that, and I don't think the rubber lines have much give at the moment, altho I can notice a little bit. I just want to increase the feedback from the brakes and reduce the movement a bit more. Pads are the first and best way to go, but braided lines can help too. When the brakes heat up, I've seen the rubber react to that as the heat is coming up from the fluid. It isn't a common thing, just something I wanted to change. Plus, they still look sexy

SPman

13th May 2005, 19:23

Paper trails,paper trails,we are being trained to cover our arse with paper trails....follow the paper trail to the guy who will take the blame and pay the costs from his pocket.If you haven't got the piece of paper that absolves you and puts the blame on someone else you are in deep poo doo.If ever you get braided hoses keep the recept and make sure they write to what standard the hoses comply - wave it under the inspectors nose and you will fly through....he will note he has seen your piece of paper on his own piece of paper...and so the trail goes...whoever looses one part of the trail takes ALL the blame.So be it in this new age of no responsability.

sheesh - sounds just like the New World Order in Building Inspections!

TwoSeven

13th May 2005, 19:37

ok, I kinda miss-explained that. The lines aren't the reason for the fade, I know that, and I don't think the rubber lines have much give at the moment, altho I can notice a little bit. I just want to increase the feedback from the brakes and reduce the movement a bit more. Pads are the first and best way to go, but braided lines can help too. When the brakes heat up, I've seen the rubber react to that as the heat is coming up from the fluid. It isn't a common thing, just something I wanted to change. Plus, they still look sexy

If you want to change lever travel (and yours isnt really adjustable), then you need to change the ratio to a higher one - basically less travel for the same amount of fluid pumped. Likewise, moving to a smaller diameter carbon hose will also help (over a braided rubber hose)- smaller diameter means less fluid required to be pumped and also higher cooling.

Finally, change your pads to a thicker unit - it will require less travel, so again you dont need to pump so much fluid.

pete376403

14th May 2005, 17:13

My self-made hoses (components bought from British Motorcycle Spares) were excellent as far as operation went, but illegal. I replaced them with Fren Tubo hoses bought from Lawtons (?) in Adelaide Rd - they have the correct markings and have passed two warrants, both at VTNZ. The testers checked the hose markings, but apart from that never said anything. I don't believe the Fren Tubos are any better than the ones I made, but they do have the magic numbers.

pritch

14th May 2005, 18:03

I see that the Galfer hoses comply with the following:
SAEJ 1401
UNE 26-399-89
ISO 3996

I hope that means something to somebody because it means sod-all to me.

Uncle B

15th May 2005, 09:05

I got a set of HEL braided lines.....did a search first to see if they are legal here...came up with www.engalert.co.nz who say that HEL are LTSA approved.
Good enough for me.

zadok

15th May 2005, 10:15

Re: WOF. Believe it or not, Western Australia does not have WOF's. As long as you keep your vehicle registered and don't get pulled up by a cop, you can get away with riding/driving the most dangerous bucket of bolts on the road.
When you buy a vehicle you have to be really careful what you choose and either pay to get it inspected, get someone that knows what to look for to check it for you, or take a risk.
Therefore in some ways I like the idea of WOF's, but not if they are going to be too picky.

Marty :ride: