Esmonde Road Bus Lane Motorway onramp

[RUSS]

A bike cop was giving tickets out the other day to bikers using the new(ish) bus only onramp to the motorway that bypasses the congested onramp. Word on the street is that he cancelled all the tickets because of all the confusion in the rules between North Shore Council and NZTA. So it looks like a big green light for using bus lanes on the motorway - not just the T2 lanes.

[p.dath]

So you think the use of the "bus only" on ramp is okay? What about the use of the actual bus lanes themselves?

[p.dath]

Just reading about the restrictions for the motorway bus lanes again:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/wiki/Bus_Lanes

I wonder if it would be legally sufficient to simply declare a timetable of when I will be using my passenger service vehicle (aka motorbike)?

I am happy to publicly publish my timetable here. I will be running a service every minute of the day, 24 x7. Alas, my passenger service only has sufficient capacity for the rider, and I frequently don't turn up for my scheduled trips.

[Squiggles]

A bike cop was giving tickets out the other day to bikers using the new(ish) bus only onramp to the motorway that bypasses the congested onramp. Word on the street is that he cancelled all the tickets because of all the confusion in the rules between North Shore Council and NZTA. So it looks like a big green light for using bus lanes on the motorway - not just the T2 lanes.

A big green for using the buslane onramps perhaps, but not the motorway bus/emergency lanes (my take on it.)

[RUSS]

Yes those too. Why not? They might give you a ticket for not having a passenger service lendorsement though.

[RUSS]

Yeah I know. It's like people know it feels wrong, so you would probably get pulled up on it, but there may be a diference between what is wrong and what is strictly an offence.

[p.dath]

Yes those too. Why not? They might give you a ticket for not having a passenger service lendorsement though.

What's invovled in getting a passenger service endorcement for private transport?

[Spearfish]

What's invovled in getting a passenger service endorcement for private transport?

Go to payless plastics and buy a hula-hoop and practice jumping through it.
P endorsement on licence for a start...
Then they start on the vehicle...
How about starting the "Mad Dash" city taxi service on bikes?
You could also be the only tin turban taxi driver?

[swbarnett]

A coulple of years ago I was given a ticket for using that bus lane. It was waived when I pointed out this very confusion. In the reply from the police they clearly stated that the word "ONLY" was the important one and, at the time, did not exist on the signs for this bus lane. Shortly after this the signs changed. It would seem to me that unless the signs have changed again or the law has been re-interpreted in our favour then it's still a no go.

[R6_kid]

A bike cop was giving tickets out the other day to bikers using the new(ish) bus only onramp to the motorway that bypasses the congested onramp. Word on the street is that he cancelled all the tickets because of all the confusion in the rules between North Shore Council and NZTA. So it looks like a big green light for using bus lanes on the motorway - not just the T2 lanes.

If it says BUS ONLY, it means BUS ONLY. Pretty fucken simple I would have thought. The T2/T3 lanes are only to give advantage for commercial vehicles, cars with 2 or more occupants and motorcycles. A BUS ONLY lane is for BUSES ONLY.

Generally if it is a bus lane that has the green painted grit surface then it is a bus lane which motorcycles can use. But the BUS ONLY sign is a dead giveaway that you shouldn't be using it, unless you are driving a bus.

[p.dath]

If it says BUS ONLY, it means BUS ONLY. Pretty fucken simple I would have thought. The T2/T3 lanes are only to give advantage for commercial vehicles, cars with 2 or more occupants and motorcycles. A BUS ONLY lane is for BUSES ONLY.

Actually its not that simple. The regulation states that it must specifically exclude motorcycles, as in "NO MOTORCYCLES". It depends on weather you consider "BUS ONLY" to be a specific exclusion. Most people consider "BUS ONLY" to be a specific INCLUSION, not an EXCLUSION as required by the regulation.

[swbarnett]

Actually its not that simple. The regulation states that it must specifically exclude motorcycles, as in "NO MOTORCYCLES".
This has been discussed before and the conclusion as I remember it was that the law considers "BUS ONLY" to be a specific exclusion to everything that is not a bus.

Also, I checked this morning and the signs at Esmonde Rd. do still have the word "ONLY" on them.

[Swoop]

It would seem to me that unless the signs have changed again or the law has been re-interpreted in our favour then it's still a no go.
Easily fixed with a paint scraper or a razor blade...

[Eyegasm]

"BUS ONLY" to be a specific exclusion to everything that is not a bus."

Wouldn't that make it a non-specific exclusion?
To be a specific exclusion you would have to Specify each individual vehicle type that is not permitted?

Hence the "Specific"

Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004 (SR 2004/427), section 1.6
Last Update 11 December 2009

Bus lane means a lane reserved by a marking or sign installed at the start of the lane and at each point at which the lane resumes after an intersection for the use of—
(a) buses; and
(b) cycles, mopeds, and motorcycles (unless 1 or more are specifically excluded by the sign)

Of course motorway bus lanes (Auckland?) come under different rules and regulations.

Just my 2c with a little help from the web.

Eyegasm

[swbarnett]

"BUS ONLY" to be a specific exclusion to everything that is not a bus."

Wouldn't that make it a non-specific exclusion?
Exactly what I first thought.

However, we're talking about the law here, not common sense. I think it goes something like "it specifically excludes all vehicles that are not buses". Be nice to know for sure if this has been tested in court.

[sAsLEX]

This has been discussed before and the conclusion as I remember it was that the law considers "BUS ONLY" to be a specific exclusion to everything that is not a bus.

Also, I checked this morning and the signs at Esmonde Rd. do still have the word "ONLY" on them.


Notice how every motorway in New Zealand "Specifically Excludes" Pedestrains and Cyclists?

Bus Only does not cut it.

[sAsLEX]

Of course motorway bus lanes (Auckland?) come under different rules and regulations.



I think this is as technically they are still Emergency Stopping lanes, not true blue Bus lanes.

The Esmonde Bus onramp on the other hand....

[R6_kid]

Actually its not that simple. The regulation states that it must specifically exclude motorcycles, as in "NO MOTORCYCLES". It depends on weather you consider "BUS ONLY" to be a specific exclusion. Most people consider "BUS ONLY" to be a specific INCLUSION, not an EXCLUSION as required by the regulation.

I'd like to see you debate that one with every cop that pulls you over. If it says "DON'T JUMP OFF THE CLIFF", does it still mean you can dive or do bombs?

Or should there be a sign (in small print) below "BUSES ONLY" which says "that excludes: cars, utes, vans, combi's, trucks, motorcycles, trikes, cyclists, pedestrians and all other forms of transport which are not covered by the word bus".

You're not supposed to think about it in-depth. You're supposed to see the sign that says "BUSES ONLY" and think "I guess that means no motorcycles then".

[Swoop]

Or should there be a sign (in small print) below "BUSES ONLY" which says "that excludes: cars, utes, vans, combi's, trucks, motorcycles, trikes, cyclists, pedestrians and all other forms of transport which are not covered by the word bus".
So, pogo-sticks or scooters are fine!!:Punk::yes:

[Eyegasm]

"You're supposed to see the sign that says "BUSES ONLY" and think "I guess that means no motorcycles then"."

While I agree with this in part, the thing that gets me is these signs have not been updated in ages
Yet the Road User Legislation was updated in December 2009.

"Or should there be a sign (in small print) below "BUSES ONLY" which says "that excludes: cars, utes, vans, combi's, trucks, motorcycles, trikes, cyclists, pedestrians and all other forms of transport which are not covered by the word bus"."

No, the Legislation states that a bus lane can only be used by
A) Buses and/or
B) Cycles, Mopeds or Motorcycles (Unless 1 or more are "Specifically" Excluded by the sign)

Therefore the "Buses Only" signs that are placed at bus lanes are out of date to the legislation.

Eyegasm

[p.dath]

I'd like to see you debate that one with every cop that pulls you over. If it says "DON'T JUMP OFF THE CLIFF", does it still mean you can dive or do bombs?

In this case, this is what the regulation specifically says. The Police are also bound by the road regulations. They can't just invent new regulations or change them.

I'm not aware of any law that requires more specific signage than "DON'T JUMP OFF THE CLIFF" - unlike the road regulation that specifically states that you must have more specific signage.

[Jantar]

....Be nice to know for sure if this has been tested in court.
As far as I'm aware it has never been fully tested in court. Any time that a motorcyclist has applied for a hearing to defend the charge it has been withdrawn. 3 years ago, One police officer (from the Auckland area) even commented that they had been told to stop ticketing motorcyclists on the Bus Only lanes due to the confusion in interpreting the law.

[sAsLEX]

Or should there be a sign (in small print) below "BUSES ONLY" which says "that excludes: cars, utes, vans, combi's, trucks, motorcycles, trikes, cyclists, pedestrians and all other forms of transport which are not covered by the word bus".


How about one similar to the pedestrian and cyclist specific exclusions at every entrance to a motorway across the country?



I'm not aware of any law that requires more specific signage than "DON'T JUMP OFF THE CLIFF" - unlike the road regulation that specifically states that you must have more specific signage.

Look at the very specific sign-age wrt to cyclists and pedestrians on motorways.

They are both "Specifically excluded".

If they can do that for one law, why not another?


As far as I'm aware it has never been fully tested in court. Any time that a motorcyclist has applied for a hearing to defend the charge it has been withdrawn. 3 years ago, One police officer (from the Auckland area) even commented that they had been told to stop ticketing motorcyclists on the Bus Only lanes due to the confusion in interpreting the law.

And after the arse kicking the police just received in their "Interpretation"/making up new laws regarding the MSSA law.......