David Bain and juries.

[Lou Girardin]

I watched the documentary on the David Bain case, which has left me in a lot more doubt about his innocence. Anyhoo, there was some discussion on our adversarial legal system as well. Straight after this was a news item on the significance of Friday the 13th. Several people were interviewed who said they didn't believe in superstition, but they wouldn't get married, buy a car, or make any other important decision on that day.
Now, with such clarity of thought being the norm, who would trust their fate to a jury of people like that?

[toads]

It's one thing for people to make statements like that and quite another to actually act on them, we recently cancelled some airline bookings and rebooked them to a later time due to do with documentation hassles, I was quite surprised when Pete said, oh well that's good I didn't feel that great about flying out on the 13th anyway!, he would be the least superstitious person I know!
however, that said, he would have flown on the 13th anyway.
when push comes to shove it's very rare people will postpone a major event simply due to a superstition.

[Motu]

I've set out on a long motorcycling holiday - turned around and gone back home,unpacked and taken the car - because it just didn't ''feel right''.I dunno,I take these little taps on the shoulder very seriously.

[bugjuice]

what did he do?
isn't that the magic dude and he can hypnotise and all that?

ahhh cool, it's friday the 13th today.. Well I'm just gonna take up flying in that old banger plane some kids put together. It was parked under the ladder where that black cat was. I'll be fine.. see y'all latuz

[GSVR]

About the only link up with Bain and Bikes in that doco was the fact he test rode a bike and crashed it doing something like 6 grands damage a few weeks before the murders. Wonder what bike it was?

I was going for a ride today as its a nice day here.

[sels1]

I watched the documentary on the David Bain case, which has left me in a lot more doubt about his innocence. .

Yes, me too. The doco did lean towards the guilty verdict. Anyone read the book by ex Dunedin cop John Lewis? (think that was the name) It gave the impression that some members of the Dn police of the time were, how shall we say, not always the most competent, and even possibly not above a little evidence fixing. (a la the Thomas case) There is always something that hasnt seemed quite right about this case. But as they pointed out in the doco, it has been reviewed many times by top legal minds and always the same conclussion....hope they got it right.




Now, with such clarity of thought being the norm, who would trust their fate to a jury of people like that?
Exactly! considering the bigotry and predidice of the average Joe(ess) its a wonder some Juries function. I guess, as Toads suggests, when it's important people try harder to get it right.

[MrMelon]

what did he do?
isn't that the magic dude and he can hypnotise and all that?

ahhh cool, it's friday the 13th today.. Well I'm just gonna take up flying in that old banger plane some kids put together. It was parked under the ladder where that black cat was. I'll be fine.. see y'all latuz
lol, that's David Blaine.
Here's some info on the David Bain Case. http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.asp?ID=88

[bugjuice]

lol, that's David Blaine.
Here's some info on the David Bain Case. http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.asp?ID=88
:doh: :o :shutup:
thanx

[Biff]

Yeah I watched it too. Wasn't the guy who wrote the David & Goliath book a former All Black?

The only real concern I had about the initial trial was the fact that the trial judge refused to allow the evidence form the friend of one of David's sisters. He claimed she told him, shortly before being the first to be killed, that she was going to "tell all", and "wipe the slate clean". He took this to mean that she was going to tell her entire family that not only was she working in the sex industry, but that her father had been having sex with her.

Surely this kind of evidence would have been pivotal to David's claim that it was a murder suicide by the father as opposed to David.

[crashe]

Yeah I watched it too. Wasn't the guy who wrote the David & Goliath book a former All Black?.


Yep it was.
Former All Black Joe Karam.

[Lou Girardin]

[QUOTE=sels1]Yes, me too. The doco did lean towards the guilty verdict. Anyone read the book by ex Dunedin cop John Lewis? (think that was the name) It gave the impression that some members of the Dn police of the time were, how shall we say, not always the most competent, and even possibly not above a little evidence fixing. (a la the Thomas case) There is always something that hasnt seemed quite right about this case. But as they pointed out in the doco, it has been reviewed many times by top legal minds and always the same conclussion....hope they got it right.
/QUOTE]

I sometimes wonder if we wouldn't be better served by the inquisatorial system as practiced in Europe. It gained a bad name due to corruption, but modern info systems could reduce that risk.
The legal fraternity would probably hate it too, but who cares about them.
At least it would be a system more geared to establishing the truth than playing lawyer games.

[bear]

Yeah, the lawyers comments on the current adversarial (sp?) system were interesting. However, the evidence in my mind did point towards David Bain being guilty, esp. the fingers prints in blood on the rifle.

Of course, documentary's are usually one sided, and it would be interesting to view a documentary produced by Joe Karam and friends claiming David's innocence.

[Lou Girardin]

Yeah, the lawyers comments on the current adversarial (sp?) system were interesting. However, the evidence in my mind did point towards David Bain being guilty, esp. the fingers prints in blood on the rifle.

Of course, documentary's are usually one sided, and it would be interesting to view a documentary produced by Joe Karam and friends claiming David's innocence.

Except that, the way they depicted him holding the rifle (with his left hand over the barrel and obscuring the scope) would be extremely unlikely to be done.
The orientation of those fingerprints suggest someone picking the gun up in that manner.

[Hitcher]

Friday the 13th? Best day of this week (so far...).

[Skyryder]

Yeah I watched it too. Wasn't the guy who wrote the David & Goliath book a former All Black?

The only real concern I had about the initial trial was the fact that the trial judge refused to allow the evidence form the friend of one of David's sisters. He claimed she told him, shortly before being the first to be killed, that she was going to "tell all", and "wipe the slate clean". He took this to mean that she was going to tell her entire family that not only was she working in the sex industry, but that her father had been having sex with her.

Surely this kind of evidence would have been pivotal to David's claim that it was a murder suicide by the father as opposed to David.

I would have thought so too, but on reflection and considering how dysfunctional the Bain family was, I suspect that his 'sister' may have made it all up. It just seems strange that Lania told other people and none of her family suspected. As for Bains guilt or innocence.........to me there is too much doubt.

Skyryder

[SPman]

Ahhh..Friday the 13th.....lucky Friday.

Dont believe Bain did it - never have!

Not "beyond reasonable doubt", especially.

[Phurrball]

Yeah, the lawyers comments on the current adversarial (sp?) system were interesting.

Spelling is impeccable, but I believe only one lawyer was commenting... :whistle:

The docco was interesting - James McNeish's book "The Mask of Sanity" is an interesting read and a counterpoint to Karam's works. At the end of the day, only one person knows (at some level perhaps?) what really happened...

If anyone is interested in hearing from the 'horses mouth' WRT the latest Court of Appeal decision in December 2003, I have the decision as a word document that I dragged off a Law Library database (Not at all suggesting that any members of the coram have equine mouths of course... :msn-wink: )

Decision is attached in next post...sorry for my gamminess...

[Phurrball]

Oops - I double-posted, now the computers are ganging up and want at least 10 characters...Sorry all.?":\


Have noticed I can add an attachment...will try...hope it works...sorry for being such an newbie... :unsure:

[Biff]

I would have thought so too, but on reflection and considering how dysfunctional the Bain family was, I suspect that his 'sister' may have made it all up. It just seems strange that Lania told other people and none of her family suspected.

It looks as though judge may also have thought this way. This combined with the fact that the guy who was to give this evidence apparently didn't come accross very well, and therefore considered an unreliable witness, prevented the evidence even being considered by the jury.

The problem is that judging someones claim to be false simply because the family is considered dysfuntional is very dangerous. It takes someone dysfuntional to have sex with a member of their immediate family in the first place.

As for Lania telling other people first, isn't this nearly always the case though, confiding in someone that wouldn't be immediately effected/involved ?

All the evidence should have been heard in order to secure a verdict that was beyond reasonable doubt.

[Skyryder]

It looks as though judge may also have thought this way. This combined with the fact that the guy who was to give this evidence apparently didn't come accross very well, and therefore considered an unreliable witness, prevented the evidence even being considered by the jury.

The problem is that judging someones claim to be false simply because the family is considered dysfuntional is very dangerous. It takes someone dysfuntional to have sex with a member of their immediate family in the first place.

As for Lania telling other people first, isn't this nearly always the case though, confiding in someone that wouldn't be immediately effected/involved ?

All the evidence should have been heard in order to secure a verdict that was beyond reasonable doubt.


Point taken Biff. But the interesting thing about this, is that if Robin Bain had motive then it is reasonable to assume that he was aware that Lania was about to 'spill the beans' so to speak. There has been no evidence that Lania had told her father that she was about to inform the family. This would be crucial to give Robin motive in respect to incest. And another interesting puzzle in my mind is that what made David so special that Robyn did not kill him. Again no evidence has ever surfaced on this other than what was typed into the computer.


Skyryder

Skyryder

[marmel]

I've always thought he should have been jailed just to protect the world from those terrible jumpers he wore.

Seriously though, there are just too many things unexplained by Bain or Karam. How about David's bloody palmprint on the washing machine? The fact that David had a lot of blood on his clothing from members of the family when his father only had 3 small spots from either David/Stephen or Laniet? The full bladder which the pathologist said was dark urine, the kind which builds up overnight. So the father was supposed to do all the murders, including fighting with Stephen, type a message on the computer, and he still didn't piss himself??? The admissions David made about the keys, hearing Laniet gurgling?? And how the hell did that magazine just happen to land on it's side, magic?? And the defence actually claimed that the father murdered the whole family and then hid his clothing were the police never found them despite days spent at the address doing forensics??????

I was in Dunedin when the last appeal decision was released and there was an article in the paper which basically stated that the judge suggested that any normal person would have to make a massive leap of faith to contemplate what the Bain team were suggesting with regards to evidence, it was bordering on farcical.

The right man is in jail if you ask me.

However, 16 non-parole years for killing five people? Now there is the real miscarriage of justice!

[Phurrball]

Seriously though, there are just too many things unexplained by Bain or Karam.

Good point marmel, this is summed up nicely in the words of Justice Tipping below(Whole judgment is attached to my earlier post):


[169] We accept that the evidence does not exclude the physical possibility of Robin having committed suicide. We are, however, of the view that the evidence as a whole shows suicide to be most unlikely. Indeed, in the light of the evidence as a whole, we are left with the clear view that no reasonable jury could find there was a reasonable possibility that Robin committed suicide after killing the other family members.

[170] Robin appears to have gone to bed the night before with a book and a hot water bottle. His alarm was set for 6.30am. In order to have committed the crimes Robin, wearing shoes, would have had to go into David’s room while he was away on his paper round; take David’s white opera gloves from his chest of drawers; know of the existence and whereabouts of the spare key for the trigger lock; remove the rifle from the cupboard without damaging David’s pre-existing prints on the forearm; find the magazines and probably load them; take off his shoes; use the rifle to effect the killings, again without damaging David’s pre-existing prints in spite of the fierce struggle with Stephen; dispose of the white cloth used in the shooting of Laniet in a manner or in a place which resulted in its not being discovered despite a thorough search; put his bloodstained clothes in the laundry for David to put into the machine; change his clothes to those in which he was dressed when he was found dead including putting the same shoes back on; go to the lounge, switch-on the computer and type the message; and then, while for no apparent reason holding a magazine in his right hand, shoot himself in a manner which somehow allowed that magazine to end up on its narrow edge and in a mot unlikely position; and all this without having emptied his bladder of its normal nightly collection of urine.

[171] That extraordinarily strained scenario must be compared with the case against David which includes the presence of his recent fingerprints on the rifle; his having heard Laniet gurgling at a time when she was very likely still alive; his statement that only he knew of the existence and whereabouts of the key which unlocked the trigger; the near impossibility of the magazine having ended up accidentally on its narrow edge in the position it was found; the essentially unexplained injuries to David’s head; the presence of Stephen’s blood on his black shorts; and the various other points which have been mentioned during the course of this judgment.

Heaps more in the judgment from both sides - a surprisingly non-boring read...

[Pixie]

I watched the documentary on the David Bain case, which has left me in a lot more doubt about his innocence. Anyhoo, there was some discussion on our adversarial legal system as well. Straight after this was a news item on the significance of Friday the 13th. Several people were interviewed who said they didn't believe in superstition, but they wouldn't get married, buy a car, or make any other important decision on that day.
Now, with such clarity of thought being the norm, who would trust their fate to a jury of people like that?
I read of a physics professor who found that most of his post graduate students believed a "system" could exist to pick Lotto numbers.
Of course as physics students they are the one group the should know better.
So the prof asked them to explain how the system could effect the sequence of balls the came out of the barrel.
And how the balls knew which number each of them was marked with and how they organised themselves into the correct sequence.

[Pixie]

lol, that's David Blaine.
Here's some info on the David Bain Case. http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.asp?ID=88
Slightly off topic,but here's a list of little known nick names some celebrities had before they became famous:
David "chill" Blaine
Nelson Piquet "screw"
Sebastian "ears" loeb
Nicky "speak" Lauder (especially after his ears burnt off)

[spudchucka]

Now, with such clarity of thought being the norm, who would trust their fate to a jury of people like that?
The jury system isn't perfect but the Bain case has been before pretty much every possible Court of Appeal and without fail each reviewer has concluded that, (even with new evidence) any reasonable jury would have convicted him.

I had a defended hearing on the 13th, (no not a speeding ticket) and the defendant changed his plea to guilty at the last minute. I guess he wasn't feeling lucky?

[spudchucka]

Except that, the way they depicted him holding the rifle (with his left hand over the barrel and obscuring the scope) would be extremely unlikely to be done.
The orientation of those fingerprints suggest someone picking the gun up in that manner.
He could have held it that way intentionally to create doubt or he may have simply put the rifle down after shooting somebody and then picked it up again in that fashion.

All the fingerprints do is put him at the scene at the time of the murders and show that at some point he was in control of the murder weapon. The rest is speculation, it is relevant but is subject to opinion.

[Ramius]

Yeah I watched it too. Wasn't the guy who wrote the David & Goliath book a former All Black?

The only real concern I had about the initial trial was the fact that the trial judge refused to allow the evidence form the friend of one of David's sisters. He claimed she told him, shortly before being the first to be killed, that she was going to "tell all", and "wipe the slate clean". He took this to mean that she was going to tell her entire family that not only was she working in the sex industry, but that her father had been having sex with her.

Surely this kind of evidence would have been pivotal to David's claim that it was a murder suicide by the father as opposed to David.


I, in this case do not blame the trial judge at all for not allowing the evidence, because if I heard it right, the guy giving the evidence was either late, or did not show up at the prearranged time, and it was 30 minutes or some such before the end of the case when he did turn up. In my minds eye, the evidence that would have been presented would not have been enough to put doubt of David Bain's guilt. And as said earlier, the biggest miscarriage of justice was the 16 year non parole period. At the end of the 16 years, he is very likely to be released from prison. 16 years for 5 murders. That is saying that each life was worth only 3 years. In America, they would either a.) hit you with a brick b.) inject you with a sterilised injection c.) turn on ol' sparky d.) 'Suicide you' e.) Let you become some bad man's boyfriend for the rest of your natural F***ing life!

My 3c worth

[dangerous]

Dont believe Bain did it - never have!
Well it does get ya woundering dosent it.... same as the Scott Watson murders, http://www.freescottwatson.com/ I hate to think how many murders got away with it, and are amoung you and I now and how many people are locked up just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time....... poor fukers.

[Skyryder]

Well it does get ya woundering dosent it.... same as the Scott Watson murders, http://www.freescottwatson.com/ I hate to think how many murders got away with it, and are amoung you and I now and how many people are locked up just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time....... poor fukers.

Scarey stuff D. I was in the 'area' (fishing the Rakia) when that chick from Ashburton was murdered. Went in for an interview. Never again. What's the odds for being in a murder vicinity twice.

Skyryder