Scary situation, request for advice and warning to newbies

[R-Soul]

Right so I am on my way to Paeroa race, and have three cars in front of me. The road zigs right and then after a short stretch, left again, after which it goes over a blind rise. The oncoming traffic lane is empty.

I reckon "sweet as", and grab a handful of throttle, passing the first two cars easily. I then get greedy (and feeling almost a little disdainul of the cars - you know how it is with V-twin acceleration), piling it on to pass the front car before the left bend.

As I pull in I realise that I am going in pretty hot (ok WAY hot), and that the left hand corner will take a little more commitment than I am usually prepared to give. I also cannot see if there is incomng traffic. There are no signs showing a reduced speed corner though...

So I brake hard while I am upright, then turn in, but still find myself drifting a little wide. Luckily just then I was over the rise, and I could see that there was no incoming traffic. So I drifted into the incoming traffic lane, slowed down a little, and promised myself not to get too greedy or ride with ego again.

Boy, riding has a way of humbling you reeeeal quick.

If the turn was a slow one, or the radius was decreasing, I would have been a little stuck, and requiring a helluva lot more lean than I am used to. I am not sure if I ould havebeen able to put it into that lean, or whether I would have frozen up and ended up heading into incoming traffic and instant death - One small error of judgement, and it's that fast.


Two points:

1) By going to track days, I figure I will have abetter idea of what the bikes limits are and how much lean I can still give, and be less liely to freeze up. Which is why track days are useful. Although there will be some that argue that I will then ride faster. But I wont, because I would still take into account the unexpected - like dogs, turds in the road, traffic james, potholes etc. :shit:

2) Especially for noobs:- Its not just about whether there is enough space to pass- its also about whether there is enough space to move back into the lane and settle to a suitable speed for the next corner after passing. (Yes I know - obvious to some...)

Hey, I dont like admitting that I made a pretty basic judgement error - but if it can make a rider think better and save an accident in the future, its worth it. :yes:

[Laxi]

1) By going to track days, I figure I will have abetter idea of what the bikes limits are and how much lean I can still give,

true, but it's also easy to start riding as close to your new limit, so if you're not careful you can just end up back in the same sittuation only going faster

[duckonin]

Just slow down the road is not a race track...

[MSTRS]

Ahhhh - the sweet feeling of relief when it doesn't turn to custard....
Ride with your brain, NOT your willy.

[Blackbird]

Track days are indeed worthwhile to explore the limits of your bike but a good advanced ROAD course is even better because a decent one will focus on situational awareness techniques to reduce the risk of you putting yourself in difficult positions. The one I did a few years ago was brilliant in that respect. I still screw up on the odd occasion because of inattention but undoubtedly not as often as had I not done the course in the first place!

[HenryDorsetCase]

Dont sweat it, we've all done it. some of us more than once. OK me. I try not to play those odds now. One day there WILL be something on the wrong side of the road.....

[sinfull]

Yeah do some bloody track days ! learn the bikes capabilities ! The nay sayers will always be nay sayers, but in a lot of cases, riders slow down on the road cause they get the need for speed fix elsewhere !

[R-Soul]

Track days are indeed worthwhile to explore the limits of your bike but a good advanced ROAD course is even better because a decent one will focus on situational awareness techniques to reduce the risk of you putting yourself in difficult positions. The one I did a few years ago was brilliant in that respect. I still screw up on the odd occasion because of inattention but undoubtedly not as often as had I not done the course in the first place!

good point - I have been intending to do those anyway.

[R-Soul]

Ahhhh - the sweet feeling of relief when it doesn't turn to custard....
Ride with your brain, NOT your willy.

Initially it was relief, yes, but it turned to sheer shock when I realised the possible outcomes of my stupidity (death or permanent incapcity, kids without a dad, wife without a hubby, family stuck in New Zealand without permanent residency, no income, etc- basically a complete fuckup). And all just to see how quickly I can pass a car.

One thing that I am is realistc and honest with myself - and that was just FUCKING STUPID.

[R-Soul]

true, but it's also easy to start riding as close to your new limit, so if you're not careful you can just end up back in the same sittuation only going faster

The thing is that I dont usually ride fast on the road - only when passing I like to get in and out quickly. When riding on the road, I (like to think I) factor in that I must give myself a buffer for predicting the unpredictable. And I can't afford speeding fines. So I would not ride any faster. But if I do find myself in bad situations (and its not like I will go looking for them) I will have a better chance of not freezing, or doing the right thing.

[MSTRS]

... it turned to sheer shock when I realised the possible outcomes of my stupidity...

Which is why you should ALWAYS ride with your brain. Think ahead to the 'what if' before you commit to any manoeuvre...and if the 'what if' is a distinct possibility (say, because your view ahead is not clear) then don't.

[riffer]

Just to add to that, I've found that, barring a few times I've been victim of cagers, every time I've come off the bike it's been because I've stuffed up when I chickened out. I've never dropped the bike through going too fast through a corner for the bike to handle it - always been due to braking or steering wrong because I THOUGHT it couldn't. Most bikes can handle way better than the rider thinks. Just got to learn to ride smooth. I'd use a track day to learn how to ride smoother, not consciously try to ride fast. The fast comes as a result of the smooth.

[FROSTY]

Im probably THE strongest advocate for trackdays as a rider skills improvement place.
However one VERY valid point that was raised by one of the naysayers is well worth remembering.
"HAVING Rossilike riding skills doesn't mean that you should ride like Rossi on the road."
So I'd suggest the point really should be not so much what to do when you get yourself into the situation but more what to do to avoid getting into the situation in the first

[riffer]

Im probably THE strongest advocate for trackdays as a rider skills improvement place.
However one VERY valid point that was raised by one of the naysayers is well worth remembering.
"HAVING Rossilike riding skills doesn't mean that you should ride like Rossi on the road."
So I'd suggest the point really should be not so much what to do when you get yourself into the situation but more what to do to avoid getting into the situation in the first


Yeah when I learn how to stop doing that I'll start offering advice on THAT one...

[R-Soul]

Which is why you should ALWAYS ride with your brain. Think ahead to the 'what if' before you commit to any manoeuvre...and if the 'what if' is a distinct possibility (say, because your view ahead is not clear) then don't.

And I generally like to think that I do use my brain. Until now it simply it never occurrred to me to think about what happens after the overtaking. I always focussed on the overtaking itself, reasoning that once I am past the car, I am home free. Not so.

Which is why I wanted to share my experience with all. Perhaps others may not have considered this aspect either. There are definitely two steps to planning an overtaking manouver.

[MSTRS]

And I generally like to think that I do use my brain......There are definitely two steps to planning an overtaking manouver.

As do I. But I'm not perfect either, and got caught a while ago too. Different circumstance tho...
Following a car behind a B-train, approaching a yellow line and right hand corner...*thinks* - I'll get past that car, and slip down the side of the truck on the left of the yellow. Simple. NOT!! I'm past the car and ready to go for it and the truck brakes, swings waaaay to the right, getting ready to turn left down the side road I hadn't seen. I don't normally have to brake that hard. The pillion bumped helmets that time...
A(nother) lesson in what you don't see is dangerous.

[Toaster]

"turds in the road" what an understatement.

[cheshirecat]

One very useful experience. Good on you for sharing it. One of the things I do is practice (afrer finding a safe spot), not by going to the limits, but just feeling the bike outside presurised condtions. EG braking through a corner when using the rear brake drops the bike down whiilest the front brake holds it up. I can't speak from track experience but one of the best courses I ever did was UK police bike course (we were escorted through traffic by two Police bikes with blue lights ablaze - great fun but their techniques are very sound

[p.dath]

Thanks for sharing your scary moment.

The other thing I always keep in the back of my mind, which is different from the track, is having your wheels in the correct lane means nothing if you are are so far leaned over that you are extending into the other lane 1m or so while cornering. You need your whole body in your lane for life preservation.

[Metastable]

Good story, it was well written.

We all know the best thing is to avoid getting into a pickle. However, once in one you need to trust your bike and tires. I think the track is of huge benefit. It slows things down on the road.... well your brain learns how to process things faster. I ride at the track a fair bit, and I am pretty far from fast on the street, so it's not like Track=Street Lunatic.

Another point. This IMO, is probably one of the THE BIGGEST riding errors out there, both street or track. Often when a corner is botched, it is because the corner was initiated too early. You need to be patient even when in a pickle and then slam it hard on its side once you see what's going on. If you turn in too early, that points you exactly where you don't want to go and you need to make another steering input to correct your mistake. The track really helps with this.

As far as trusting your tires. I have a story for you. recently we (in Canada right now) did a winter hiatus to Florida for a trackday. Well it wasn't exactly warm in Florida. The first session was probably about 5-6C. I had tire warmers.... and in the first session one of my mates goes boot'n past me knee down all over the place towards the end of the session. He had BRAND NEW never ever used tires, no tire warmers, it was cold as all hell, 100% stock 2005 Gixxer 750.....
Now I know he's very experienced, but what I'm getting at is that if he can do that at near freezing temps on brand new tires (BT014s I think) ..... trust your tires a little when riding the street. Look where you want to go and have faith!

[Love my Bonnie]

Just to add to that, I've found that, barring a few times I've been victim of cagers, every time I've come off the bike it's been because I've stuffed up when I chickened out. I've never dropped the bike through going too fast through a corner for the bike to handle it - always been due to braking or steering wrong because I THOUGHT it couldn't. Most bikes can handle way better than the rider thinks. Just got to learn to ride smooth. I'd use a track day to learn how to ride smoother, not consciously try to ride fast. The fast comes as a result of the smooth.

This is what I am just learning, once you've committed yourself, stick with it!
Its when I hesitate that things get a bit hairy.

[TomJ]

good story - did exactly same things as noob overtaking on the Pyes Pa road. scared me into more realistic approach to overtaking

[scumdog]

The OPs story is why I ride like a scaredy-cat nana now - oh, and picking up bits of those not so lucky also kinda convinced me about it.

[jimbo_on_travels]

piling it on to pass the front car before the left bend.

Begs the question.. couldn't you just have waited 'til you had a clear straight and then make the pass?

[R-Soul]

Begs the question.. couldn't you just have waited 'til you had a clear straight and then make the pass?

Yup. Like I say - I got greedy and was driven a little by ego. Not my finest (or smartest) hour. Which is why I am laying it out on the table for all to see and think about. If oit makes others think a bit further than I did, then my job is done.

I also just never thought about passing as two steps. One to pass, one to get back into your lane and stay there (at passing speeds).

On a bike, the passing of cars is so easy you hardly think about it too much. But you're not always prepared for what comes after you passed the car.
It actually takes a bit of plannig. Yes, it may seem obvious now, but it was the last thing I was thinking about. All I focussed on was getting past the cars. And getting to the races.

Now I am aware of passing as a two stage process, and plan the pass very carefully.

[george formby]

It has taken me years to make that leap of faith when I get caught out by speed / tightening corner of leaning the bike in more & keeping a safe line. The bikes limits far exceed mine & I would rather risk the slide than face an oncoming vehicle or the shrubbery.
Best to err on the side of caution but old age is blurring my judgement now & again. Oh well.

[CookMySock]

Right so I am on my way to Paeroa race, and have three cars in front of me. The road zigs right and then after a short stretch, left again, after which it goes over a blind rise. The oncoming traffic lane is empty.Be extremely careful passing in those circumstances.

Either ;

a. only pass the first car
b. maintain a constant speed differential
c. don't pass

There are three immediately obvious hazards ;

1. loosing track of your speed differential (oops!)
2. crossing the catseyes in a left-hand turn (owch!)
3. being forced to brake real hard on the slippery centreline to avoid oncoming traffic

Your "ways out" are blocked by the left-hander - you can't use the centreline as your "emergency third lane" because your bike now occupies a whole lane (it's leaned over.)

Basically, passing on left-handers is fraught with danger, and doing it after a non-thinking burst of power on a
short straight is pray-and-go mode, which is russian roulette.

IMO, YMMV.

Steve

[R-Soul]

The OPs story is why I ride like a scaredy-cat nana now - oh, and picking up bits of those not so lucky also kinda convinced me about it.

Which story?

[R-Soul]

There are three immediately obvious hazards ;

1. loosing track of your speed differential (oops!)
2. crossing the catseyes in a left-hand turn (owch!)
3. being forced to brake real hard on the slippery centreline to avoid oncoming traffic

Your "ways out" are blocked by the left-hander - you can't use the centreline as your "emergency third lane" because your bike now occupies a whole lane (it's leaned over.)

Basically, passing on left-handers is fraught with danger, and doing it after a non-thinking burst of power on a
short straight is pray-and-go mode, which is russian roulette.

IMO, YMMV.

Steve

These were not so immediately obvious to me (or perhaps I was too distracted to think it through properly - whatever)
But yes, I found out about these small but real obtsacles to settling back into my lane at just the wrong time...

YMMV?

[CookMySock]

These were not so immediately obvious to me (or perhaps I was too distracted to think it through properly - whatever)
But yes, I found out about these small but real obtsacles to settling back into my lane at just the wrong time...

YMMV?YMMV is just a disclaimer - as in its my opinion. Google "YMMV". ;)

Yes it is particularly easy to lose track of the speed differential, especially for those new to higher-powered bikes. It all happens very quickly, and combined with that left-hander at the end of the short straight, well, I expect the image of that is firmly fixed in your mind now.

Even if the passing manoevre is completed and you have the lane to yourself, you have a "push on the bars son - do it riiiiight now or meet your maker" situation. This, combined with being on the outside of a car during the left-hand sweeping turn, and then meeting oncoming traffic as well, just does not bear thinking about. Basically it will force you into doing some very hurried maths, and quite likely having to add even more power to get in, before the imminent becomes a blinding flash.

Just recognise that pattern and stay out of it - thats my rule for myself.

Steve

[jimbo_on_travels]

^ +1 to post above - I don't like "Meet your Maker" situations one bit!

[ZX12R Hoon]

Don't worry about lean angle. Just look where you want to go. Most people in that situation when they are inexperienced look at the fence or letterbox or tree on the other side of the road and in their heads they are thinking, "bugger, I'm going to hit that, don't want to but thats where I'm going", they look where they don't want to go and go there. It's called Target Focus. Cage drivers do it too, there will be a road sign or power pole and the hit it dead centre, why? Target Focus. All around it are escape routes but no, they hit iit. You have to train yourself to look as far round the corner as you can, search for the vanishing point, that's the very last bit of road that you can see, focus where you want to go and you'll go there. One point worth mentioning, when you are "in" a corner and on the lean, to see the vanishing point your head now has to tip backwards and you actually look up, the same as looking up at the sky when you are standing.