Harawira takes on smoking giant due to Maori deaths

[spajohn]

I'm not a smoker, and would be keen to see less of it, but what gets me with this is at what point should people take responsibility for their own actions? If there are 600 deaths a year amongst Maori from smoking, didn't everyone of them choose to smoke?

What are your thoughts?

"A tobacco giant has been told there should be a statue to commemorate dead Maori smokers killed by "the enemy that lies within our midst"."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3437941/Harawira-fires-a-volley-for-the-smoking-battalion

[Tank]

Yep - because smocking deaths is a Maori only issue.

[Mully]

I thought that while I was watching Hone banging his drum on te News yesterday.

"Personal responsibility" seems to be a foreign concept.

It's a pity Dean got sand in his vagina, cos I'm sure he'd have a unique POV on this.

[FJRider]

Lots of kids go hungry because their parents would rather buy smokes ... than food.

Must be the goverments fault ...

[bogan]

Hone can get fucked, we commemorate the soldiers because they died for something (NZ'rs freedom etc) what did the smokers die for?

Also, yeh where has dean got to? got back from my hols and kb hasnt been nearly as funny without him

[FJRider]

"Personal responsibility" seems to be a foreign concept.

I've heard that said a few times ... quite a few times actually ...

But few take responsibility personally ...

[Mully]

Funnily enough, I was just watching this:http://tvnz.co.nz/close-up/meat-loaf-talks-fame-and-new-music-5-29-video-3398739

(It's a Meat Loaf interview from Close Up earlier in the week) - there's a good bit in there about personal responsibility. A minute or so in.

[spajohn]

Funnily enough, I was just watching this:http://tvnz.co.nz/close-up/meat-loaf-talks-fame-and-new-music-5-29-video-3398739

(It's a Meat Loaf interview from Close Up earlier in the week) - there's a good bit in there about personal responsibility. A minute or so in.

Great interview...and excellant point on personal responsiblity.

[MisterD]

Why take personal responsibility when you can blame the white man for everything?

I know a few others on here are regular readers of the Whale...but really you should read this about his appearance in front of that select committee:

http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/2010/03/10/they-dont-like-it-up-em-2/

The further reading, which is what he was trying to present:

http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/2009/11/03/exclusive-te-reo-marama-maori-smoking-troughing-101-results/
http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/2009/11/04/exclusive-te-reo-marama-and-maori-smoking-troughing-102/

...and you thought the Treaty was the only gravy-train in town...

[Tank]

I know a few others on here are regular readers of the Whale.....

All Hail the Whale - love his work.

[Swoop]

...and you thought the Treaty was the only gravy-train in town...
It appears the train is pulling quite a few carriages behind it.

All aboard! No ticket required, the taxpayer is being bled dry to fund everything.

[puddytat]

They should give up the ciggies & just stick to dope.....:whistle:

[EJK]

Lots of kids go hungry because their parents would rather buy smokes ... than food.

Must be the goverments fault ...

Probably the only consumer product they buy from dairy?

[riffer]

Let the tobacco companies sell as many ciggies as they like. Just don't allow them to have any nicotine in them. Problem solved...

[bogan]

Let the tobacco companies sell as many ciggies as they like. Just don't allow them to have any nicotine in them. Problem solved...

or just let em sell as many as they like full stop, if people want to shorten their own lives with cigarettes let em; most buildings are smokefree now so i doubt second hand smoke is doing much damage.

[ynot slow]

You toke the smoke,ya takes ya chances.

Was in Wellington hospital,elderley maori lady had her lung removed due to cancer,was she going to stop,"nope been doing it for 50yrs why stop now" kinda like my dads' thoughts,but his lungs ok.
My lung was removed(lower left lobe)due to cancer and never smoked so kinda pissed me off,and pretty damn sure if people knew the pain after surgery(bearable for sure,but still have rib pain 9mths later,and maybe for life)they may flag starting. Personal responsibilty for anything we all do.

[wbks]

You toke the smoke,ya takes ya chances.

Was in Wellington hospital,elderley maori lady had her lung removed due to cancer,was she going to stop,"nope been doing it for 50yrs why stop now" kinda like my dads' thoughts,but his lungs ok.
My lung was removed(lower left lobe)due to cancer and never smoked so kinda pissed me off,and pretty damn sure if people knew the pain after surgery(bearable for sure,but still have rib pain 9mths later,and maybe for life)they may flag starting. Personal responsibilty for anything we all do.
Do they treat people who continue smoking while ill/after opps?

[Dave Lobster]

Do they treat people who continue smoking while ill/after opps?

Of course. Someone thought it was a good idea to sign up the that human rights malarky.

Not me, incidently.

[Headbanger]

Do they treat people who continue smoking while ill/after opps?

Of course, Smokers are after all subsidising non-smokers health care. Keep em alive and smoking.

Win/win situation.

[peasea]

Hone can get fucked

Have some bling dude.

[peasea]

Why take personal responsibility when you can blame the white man for everything?

I know a few others on here are regular readers of the Whale...but really you should read this about his appearance in front of that select committee:

http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/2010/03/10/they-dont-like-it-up-em-2/

The further reading, which is what he was trying to present:

http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/2009/11/03/exclusive-te-reo-marama-maori-smoking-troughing-101-results/
http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/2009/11/04/exclusive-te-reo-marama-and-maori-smoking-troughing-102/

...and you thought the Treaty was the only gravy-train in town...
Must spread rep etc........great reading, thanks.

[Ocean1]

Do they treat people who continue smoking while ill/after opps?

Including the ones smoking through a tracheotomy shunt.

[KiWiP]

Nicotine is a highly addictive drug (more addictive than heroin, cocaine, alcohol etc) it is freely available to all, children included. When anyone starts smoking they are not thinking of long term health effects, financial costs or becoming a burden on society. Not surprising really because what alcoholic does when they have their first drink or gambler when they place their first chip on red.
I think all the "personal responsibility" comments come from people who have never smoked or are those blaggards who have smoked but now don't and forget how difficult it is to give up or how many times they tried before eventually succeeding.

Tobacco companies are ruthless. They target the poor, the ill informed and those who don't have the benefit of higher education. Proof? compare the price of bread, milk and cigarettes in a dairy in a poor neighborhood to a rich one. Bread and milk cheaper in a rich one, cigarettes cheaper in a poor one. A smoker will forgo milk in their coffee and go without a piece of toast before they go without a cigarette. Remember it's a drug and BAT and Phillip Morris are drug pushers. Don't bash the user they are the victims. take your (rightful) anger out on those who push this vile, pernicious product.

An ex-smoker.

p.s. Any one who does smoke I support your choice to smoke so don't get all pissy because I am not attacking you. But please appreciate you are an unknowing victim of crimes against your person. Are you smoking because you want to and it is your free choice or are you smoking because you have to?

[PrincessBandit]

Yep - because smocking deaths is a Maori only issue.

Yeah, they die of embarrassment having been caught smocking...
(couldn't resist)

I just love how people like Hone keep making things like alcohol abuse, drug abuse, smoking, the list goes on, a racial issue. Do Maori smokers have special place above non-Maori smokers?

[bogan]

Yeah, they die of embarrassment having been caught smocking...
(couldn't resist)

I just love how people like Hone keep making things like alcohol abuse, drug abuse, smoking, the list goes on, a racial issue. Do Maori smokers have special place above non-Maori smokers?

all moari have a special place above everyone else doncha know, they were here <s>first</s> second?... well, yeh so they get better stuff you see :confused:

[Mully]

Nicotine is a highly addictive drug (more addictive than heroin, cocaine, alcohol etc) it is freely available to all, children included.

Agreed.


When anyone starts smoking they are not thinking of long term health effects, financial costs or becoming a burden on society. Not surprising really because what alcoholic does when they have their first drink or gambler when they place their first chip on red.

Anyone who doesn't know the effects of smoking before they start has, frankly, got their head in the sand. The fact that tobacco companies sell a highly addictive, poison is common knowledge and has been for many, many years.


I think all the "personal responsibility" comments come from people who have never smoked or are those blaggards who have smoked but now don't and forget how difficult it is to give up or how many times they tried before eventually succeeding.

As I understand it (and you're right, I've never smoked) becoming addicted to these cancer sticks is indeed easy. However, smokers I have asked have said that it was extremely unpleasant to start smoking. I also know smokers (and drinkers, for that matter) who have given up cold-turkey. For health reasons, mainly.

I tried it when I was younger (cos it was cool, obviously) and it was disgusting. Anyone that perseveres with that shit long enough to get addicted is obviously much "cooler" than I was.


Tobacco companies are ruthless.

Again, agreed.


They target the poor, the ill informed and those who don't have the benefit of higher education.

I maintain that it's pretty difficult to be unaware of the effects of smoking. Regardless of your education level.


But please appreciate you are an unknowing victim of crimes against your person. Are you smoking because you want to and it is your free choice or are you smoking because you have to?

And why did you start smoking, for that matter.

[wbks]

Heard the "smoking is more addictive than P" line a few times... Kind of makes me wonder, like with the old "more people die of lightning strike than shark attacks"... Strangely enough a lot less people go walking in a thunderstorm than swim in the sea, just as people aren't quite given the same incentive to stop smoking tobacco vs. P, and I've yet to see someone burgle a house to fund their nicotine habit

[Dave Lobster]

I maintain that it's pretty difficult to be unaware of the effects of smoking. Regardless of your education level.


Maybe the original poster, and Hone for that matter, are implying that some people are really really stupid.

[Big Col]

Whatever Hone is involved with makes no difference, Hes just a worthless CUNT.

[Mully]

Whatever Hone is involved with makes no difference, Hes just a worthless CUNT.

Don't beat around the bush - what do you really think?

[Big Col]

Damn was that me sugar coating things again.

[CookMySock]

I think sale of tobacco should be discontinued. It's a horrible drug that affects everyone.

If people want it, they should grow it themselves.

Steve

[Dave Lobster]

I think sale of tobacco should be discontinued. It's a horrible drug that affects everyone.


Apart from contributing taxes so that I don't have to, how does it affect me?

[Beemer]

Both of my parents smoked from a young age - probably about 10 or so - and both died from cancer. Even when she was dying in hospital, my mother asked the doctor if she could have a smoke "because I'm going to die anyway". I was horrified. I've never smoked and am the only one in my family who doesn't, and I'd begged my parents to stop smoking since I could remember. My mother gave up briefly after a close friend's mother died of lung cancer, but it didn't last long. Her attitude was "you've got to die of something". Me, I'd rather die of something that wasn't preventable and wasn't caused by my own actions.

I'm rapt that smoking is banned in workplaces and bars/restaurants. I used to loathe going to a restaurant and having people (usually family) smoke all through the meal. I'd be thrilled if they banned it completely as it's not like it does anything at all for your health. I enjoy a drink and I know alcohol causes huge problems for some people so I realise that may make me hypocritical, but there is a difference. You can drink a glass of wine a night and not damage your health, whereas EVERY cigarette you smoke is damaging your health.

The only problem I can see with Hone and his ilk is that it doesn't kill his sort quickly enough for my liking.

[KiWiP]

And why did you start smoking, for that matter.

My first taste of a cigarette was from a friend who nicked a couple from his mother. We coughed our guts up and felt dizzy. It gives a really good hit. Originally I would smoke one or two a weekend, then I went out with a woman who smoked rollies and I would make little ones for myself. And so it goes on from there. At my height I was smoking 40 a day. To a smoker it's not about health, money, taste or style it's about getting that hit. I haven't smoked for 8 years but I still get the occasional craving when I smell tobacco smoke. I am an addict because I enjoyed that hit. To the average teenager (which is the time when most long term smokers start) next week is another century away and how can one little cigarette harm them? They are not unaware as all the education is given in school, but it starts with one cigarette and then Big Arsehole Tobacco (BAT) has them for life.

I propose that the legal smoking age is raised every year until it is 25. Who is going to start at 25? Who needs to smoke when they are younger?

[wbks]

Poor people being had by the big bad tobacco company. It's not like they have the brains or foresight to steer clear of it...

[KiWiP]

Poor people being had by the big bad tobacco company. It's not like they have the brains or foresight to steer clear of it...

You're missing the point. You are looking at adult smokers as starter smokers. Very, very few people start smoking in adult hood. By far the majority are teenagers. Teenagers do not have a conscious choice. They are led through life by peer pressure, what's 'cool' and how they can keep the population up. There is no conscious connection between a cigarette which their mates smoke, is cool and has an image that might get them laid.

Once they are addicted it is very, very hard to quit. Yes some people do quit cold turkey. This is rare and usually provoked by a traumatic event (mine was meeting a guy who had just had a lung removed) and the average attempts to stop successfully is 5. Note I say stop not give up. Once you are addicted you can never give up the addiction it is always there. A bit of a sobering thought for anyone thinking of starting.

If you want to know what it's like to know what it's like to be addicted. Think of your favourite thing (sex or riding probably :-) ) then deny it to yourself for ever.

Not a comfortable thought. Could you do it?

[bogan]

Teenagers do not have a conscious choice bullshit, while a teenager i declined every cigarette offered cept one time when my mate were a bit persisten so i took it and gorund it out (didnt get offered too many after that)


If you want to know what it's like to know what it's like to be addicted. Think of your favourite thing (sex or riding probably :-) ) then deny it to yourself for ever.

Not a comfortable thought. Could you do it?

nope, but if bad shit happend to me i would blame myself, not the motorcycle dealers or hookers

anyhu, this is about our esteemed public servant mr harawera reckoning people who die from thier addiction deserve as much recognition as those who died serving thier country, are you for that?

[CookMySock]

You're missing the point. [...] Teenagers do not have a conscious choice. They are led through life by peer pressure, what's 'cool' and how .....Ah yeah thats about right. MOST teenagers have all their common sense overruled by that.


Once they are addicted it is very, very hard to quit. Harder than giving up wanking.


A bit of a sobering thought for anyone thinking of starting.It's impossible to tell someone not to start. They don't get it, and they won't get it. I like the idea of the legal age increasing.

Smoking is an addiction like being overweight. You have no idea how it feels to be out, until you are out and have your life back.

Steve

[Laxi]

Harder than giving up wanking.


you're not going to give up being a wanker are ya DB??? :laugh:

[fire eyes]

Mr Harawira .. hmmm .. I don't agree with alot of what that guy says .. at the end of the day hes a politician, they all talk bullshit to some extent or another .. but weather I agree or not with his views .. he is highlighting the effects of smoking.

[FJRider]

Mr Harawira .. hmmm .. I don't agree with alot of what that guy says .. at the end of the day hes a politician, they all talk bullshit to some extent or another .. but weather I agree or not with his views .. he is highlighting the effects of smoking.

Highlighting the effects of smoking is publicity ... good or bad, but it's getting talked about (even if it only on KB). Which can't be a bad thing in the end.

But is he trying to highlight its a Maori (only ???) problem, or he is advocating assistance to only Maori ... ???

[wbks]

bullshit, while a teenager i declined every cigarette offered cept one time when my mate were a bit persisten so i took it and gorund it out (didnt get offered too many after that)


nope, but if bad shit happend to me i would blame myself, not the motorcycle dealers or hookers

anyhu, this is about our esteemed public servant mr harawera reckoning people who die from thier addiction deserve as much recognition as those who died serving thier country, are you for that?X2
So this is the attitude that promotes throwing responsibility away


But is he trying to highlight its a Maori (only ???) problem, or he is advocating assistance to only Maori ... ???Like most controversial Maori MP's, he pretty much admits that he only gives a shit about Maori, whether the rest of NZ is affected is irrelevant. Actually, it's been made obvious that he claims to be for Maori, but is pretty much in it for him and his

[KiWiP]

bullshit, while a teenager i declined every cigarette offered

And you are amongst the majority of teenagers. Well done you. (From ASH (http://www.ash.org.nz/?t=108))
• Most New Zealanders begin smoking before they are 14.6 years old.
• 12.8% of youth aged 14-15 are regular smokers2, 10.6 percent among boys and 14.9 percent among girls.

My points are based upon frustration at the "If you make a mistake in life you can go fuck yourself, it's your fault" attitude. Does this apply to someone who has an accident while participating in their sport, motorcycling, skiing etc etc? Kids get hooked before they are considered responsible enough to drive, drink, vote or screw. Why are they lambasted as adults for the mistakes they made in their adolescence. And please don't respond with "well as adults they should just give up" It's a highly addictive drug, if it wasn't everyone would give up. Or at least only smoke when they choose to (as most of us do with alcohol) and not all the time.


anyhu, this is about our esteemed public servant mr harawera reckoning people who die from thier addiction deserve as much recognition as those who died serving thier country, are you for that?
Sorry for my diversion - No he's a self serving tosser who cannot grasp that we live in a multicultural society (and are the better off because of it) I agree that some sectors of our society have a rougher deal of it and something needs to ensure opportunities are open to all.
Erect a statue to the smoking dead? Why FFS? He has just latched onto a headline grabbing idea and like obedient little puppies the journalists give him the publicity he craves which will guarantee him a few more Maori votes.

Stay alive till 25 - No smoking till aged 25 - I feel a campaign coming on

[wbks]

Seeing as you are going with the "kids are too innocent/stupid to know better" deal: Where do you draw the line? When they kill a pizza delivery man? Or when they turn 18 suddenly everything from rape to indecent exposure suddenly makes them evil, where as before they just didn't know better?

[Mudfart]

You should have to attend a 3 day seminar at your own expense, then sit a test to show you bothered taking in the information, then you should be given a license to buy ciggies.
The seminar will include a session, "how MUCH non smokers really HATE smelling your shit".
And two of the three days will be on "how not to smoke around non smokers", "living with leprosy", and my personal favourite, "your going to get punched".
The license with photo ID will have to be shown to buy smokes, it will state that "fuck no", you are not an organ donor, and the license will also exclude you from the public healthcare service should you be dying of smoking related illnesses. Considering you probably aided the deaths of 10-20 people during 30yrs of smoking yourself. Fairs fair.

[avgas]

I am not too concerned with BAT/Phillip Morris/Altria......they do this on a daily basis and have the best lawyers in the game.
Hawera will come out smoking some Marlboro.
My only concern is how much of our money he will waste in his attempt.

[bogan]

And you are amongst the majority of teenagers. Well done you. (From ASH (http://www.ash.org.nz/?t=108))
• Most New Zealanders begin smoking before they are 14.6 years old.
• 12.8% of youth aged 14-15 are regular smokers2, 10.6 percent among boys and 14.9 percent among girls.

My points are based upon frustration at the "If you make a mistake in life you can go fuck yourself, it's your fault" attitude. Does this apply to someone who has an accident while participating in their sport, motorcycling, skiing etc etc? Kids get hooked before they are considered responsible enough to drive, drink, vote or screw. Why are they lambasted as adults for the mistakes they made in their adolescence. And please don't respond with "well as adults they should just give up" It's a highly addictive drug, if it wasn't everyone would give up. Or at least only smoke when they choose to (as most of us do with alcohol) and not all the time.

Its not a if you "make a mistake go fuck yourself" attitude (cept for that hone fulla, he can go get fucked anyway), its a "if you make a mistake take some responsibility", so you smoke and are addicted and will likely die early, blaming somebody else aint gonna help at all, in fact its probably an out for when trying to quit gets too hard.



Sorry for my diversion - No he's a self serving tosser who cannot grasp that we live in a multicultural society (and are the better off because of it) I agree that some sectors of our society have a rougher deal of it and something needs to ensure opportunities are open to all.
Erect a statue to the smoking dead? Why FFS? He has just latched onto a headline grabbing idea and like obedient little puppies the journalists give him the publicity he craves which will guarantee him a few more Maori votes.

Stay alive till 25 - No smoking till aged 25 - I feel a campaign coming on

hmmm, i am generally against the 'nanny state' ideas, but this one has merit, tis proven smoking is harmful, those young uns arent deemed responsible to drink, drive, have sex, so smoking should be added to the list i reckon.

[Genie]

i recently gave up smoking but have always said that I think it's disgusting that one 'chooses' to smoke.
I started at 12 and really didn't have a clue, didn't realise it was addictive and certainly didn't know the damage it could cause. It hit me when i was about 25, by then I was well and truely addicted.
I've beaten it (after a few attempts) and it wasn't that hard. I made a choice to be a non-smoker.

Anyway, what I get quite peeved about, and this was true while I smoked, was that if I choose to contunue smoking knowing it can kill me, knowing it is going to cause problems to my unborn child, knowing it can cause health issues for my children, then I'm an idiot. I make the choice to be a smoker, and in making that choice I should negate all rights to medical care when I start to have issues due to my smoking.
How much does it cost our country to nurse a patient through lung cancer? How much does it cost for the asthma inhalers our children need due to the smoking of the parents? the medical costs incurred due to smoking must be horrendous. I know there is already a huge tax on cigerettes but it should be higher.

and the real cost, life.

[pete376403]

Maybe because the pollies can see that if they ban smoking now, they forgo the taxes raised but are still stuck with the health costs until the current smokers die.
At present they get the taxes to help offset the health costs.
Easier to leave it till it becomes someone elses problem

[Mudfart]

The more good news about ilegallising tobacco growing, production, selling, is that it opens up a whole black market for the gangs, and hopefully would reduce their production of more serious antisocial drugs such as P. That shit is REALLY fucked. I've seen people absolutely raging mad on it.

[FJRider]

At present they get the taxes to help offset the health costs.


But the health board's budget, does not go up when they raise the tax ... just like all road tax is not spent on roads ...