Govt internet filter going live is sad day for NZ [Archive]

freedom-wedge

14th March 2010, 09:07

Is this the right thing to be doing, are you even worried about the secrecy surrounding this .

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1003/S00159.htm

Blackshear

14th March 2010, 09:19

I'm actually pretty fucked off.
What exactly will they be filtering? Who gets to decide? Where will it end?

NZ is looking less and less like a good place to live. Especially for internet-surfing bikers.

davereid

14th March 2010, 09:21

Is this the right thing to be doing, are you even worried about the secrecy surrounding this .

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1003/S00159.htm

This has been trialled for some time. DIA claim that only sites containing child porn will be filtered, of course thats what the Aussies claimed, and they filtered child porn, legal porn, political opinion, and basically anything they wanted !

Like Aussie, the NZ censor refuses to tell you what he is censoring, because while chid porn is the excuse, its really not the long term target.

For those site he is happy to publicly censor, you will get a web page informing you that the page you are visiting has bee censored. But for the others, you will just get a 404 error.

This is just another step down the censorship path, neatly avoiding the public debate hat occured in Aussie when they did it.

Its easy to avoid. Proxy servers abound, and are easy to set up, plus the US government is going to provide real fast ones for non US citizens to bypass censorship.

And not all ISPs are going to censor. Dump your existing internet provider, citing the fact you pay for the internet, not just the DIAs version of it. Change to Orcon, or another non censoring ISP and tell them why as well.

Toaster

14th March 2010, 09:29

Such is the inevitable way of things. It wouldn't surprise me that one day they will be implanting microchip barcodes (like international passport/ID tags) in out forearms to keep tabs on us all. Imagine if that had GPS they could watch us all speed about like fireflies.

The Privacy Act and Human Rights Act will limit any invasion of privacy unless you are a threat to national security. Then they need warrants to bug you anyway.

R6_kid

14th March 2010, 09:35

New Zealand - little China in the South Pacific.

Drew

14th March 2010, 09:38

Kiddie porn aye. So they're just targeting mac users?

bogan

14th March 2010, 09:54

I'm actually pretty fucked off.
What exactly will they be filtering? Who gets to decide? Where will it end?

NZ is looking less and less like a good place to live. Especially for internet-surfing bikers.

fuck yeh, forget the lower income jobs etc, it this sorta bullshit that make me wanna go someplace else, somewhere in europe cud be the go.

And the fact that the censored sites list is secret really fucks me off, coupled with the 404 page instead of a censored page leaves it wide open to govt meddling without limitations; the kb acc levy section could well become full of 404 errors.

Mully

14th March 2010, 09:59

Its easy to avoid.

Bingo.

I don't know why anyone gives a shit - just go around it. (unless you are looking for kiddie porn, in which case, burn in hell you scumbag)

bogan

14th March 2010, 10:05

Bingo.

I don't know why anyone gives a shit - just go around it. (unless you are looking for kiddie porn, in which case, burn in hell you scumbag)

depends on the amount they block i spose, a few sites yeh, can live with proxying that, heaps could get to be a hassle, specially if they start blocking the proxies as well

mashman

14th March 2010, 10:08

Ha ha... and who's going to use that new $900,000,000 pipe i wonder (can i hear ya'll say REPLICATION)... I don't personally have a problem with being policed as I have nothing to hide... but preventing people from accessing a website, hmmmm, that could be used for all sorts of dodgy purposes... no good will come of it... But who cares, t'aint like anyone can do anything about it...

YellowDog

14th March 2010, 10:11

Bingo.

I don't know why anyone gives a shit - just go around it. (unless you are looking for kiddie porn, in which case, burn in hell you scumbag)

Most countries do have a far more rigerous internet filter system than NZ.

Coming from the UK the thing that amazed me most about NZ is the amout of music and video you can easily download. The fact is that whilst some would say I am breaking copyrights when I download something I like, I then often keep an eye out and buy it. So in my case providing free access to music and video has increased the revenue of the music companies as if I were not able to sample it for free, I wouldn't e buying it. And the likely hood of a genuine theif actually paying for anything is highly unlikely so who will they actually be stopping?

I do agree with the child porn ban. If you are kinky for kids in briefs just watch the Warehouse advert on TV :)

oldrider

14th March 2010, 10:15

Freedom began it's major decline with the birth of socialism, the United Nations and the New World Order!

Where is Helen Clark these days?

mashman

14th March 2010, 10:16

Probably living it large on her Super Gold Card

rainman

14th March 2010, 10:50

Freedom began it's major decline with the birth of socialism, the United Nations and the New World Order!

John, you're sounding like a stuck record, mate. :) Besides, the NWO is hardly a socialist thing (it's also an unnecessary conspiracy theory).

Surprisingly I'd agree with you on the freedom in decline part, but I suspect not on the cause.

Mudfart

14th March 2010, 13:48

yep the govt filter has been running for a while.....
I saw BBC last night, and they are using an encryption re-router type thing in Iran where the govt suppression is very strong.
Its called haystack, I'm sure if you google it you'll get it, I haven't checked it out yet.
Apparently its free for the whole world, and the most powerful anti censorship device ever. Also its raised the HUGE global debate, because the english govt tried censoring from the net, video feeds of a protest on a coal powered power station in england that got feisty.
All first world govts are crapping themselves because they are realising how powerful things such as this very blog could be, in bringing people together, fast, in a common belief, for the right and justice that is seriously lacking from the leeches on society we so honourably nominate to represent us in govt. Take a look at the thread about electing a new govt!. Shhhhh they are reading this right now.
Oh, a knock on my door, honey did you order pizza?

paturoa

14th March 2010, 13:49

It'll have interesting ramifictions for malicious attacks. Post / hack up some of the offending stuff on a competitors web site and complain to the DIA?

davereid

14th March 2010, 14:05

Bingo.I don't know why anyone gives a shit - just go around it.

That fine if you know that "your government is corrupt.com" exists, and has the data you seek. Cos you will get there by proxyserver, tunnelling whatever you need.

But what if you just think the government might be telling you porkies ?

You google the subject matter but its not listed. Even if it is you go to look and get a 404 error.

Maybe you will be good at getting around it. But your grandmother deserves to form her opinions with access to the same web sites and information as you do.

Freedom of information is for all, not just geeks.

oldrider

14th March 2010, 15:44

John, you're sounding like a stuck record, mate. :) Besides, the NWO is hardly a socialist thing (it's also an unnecessary conspiracy theory).

Surprisingly I'd agree with you on the freedom in decline part, but I suspect not on the cause.

True! I take my queue from modern advertising, it's like Mrs Marsh's chalk, it does get in! (can you remember that one?) :sick:

I have to admit that while there have been many freedoms lost over my lifetime, there have also been many improvements.

If the young people of today had to endure some of the stifling social mores of our day, they would go crazy!

There is nothing I enjoy more than seeing young couples out enjoying a nice meal and a social drink in a civilised manner, there was little or non of that in my youth!

Six o'clock closing was as bazaar an experience as I can ever remember!

No alcohol within a mile of a dance or social function! (fights and arrests galore)

The ring of girls seated at the dances, while the guys hung around the door, pushing, shoving, smoking and fighting!

The fights at the pie cart on the way home from taking a girl to the movies or the local dance!

Yeah, some would have us believe that they were the good old days, yeah right! Tui anyone!

I could go on and on.

I do firmly believe that "the good old days" are today and on top of that the technical advancements over my lifetime have been truly amazing!

Yes, there have been a lot of other freedoms lost but I guess if you never had them, you will probably never miss them!

I just dislike socialism and the dumb rules and laws they invent to screw everyone down to an imaginary mediocre mid point, there are no losers, everyone is a winner! :doh:

Bren

14th March 2010, 15:51

one word.....well a number to be precise....1984

Oakie

14th March 2010, 16:11

John, you're sounding like a stuck record, mate. :) Besides, the NWO is hardly a socialist thing (it's also an unnecessary conspiracy theory).
Surprisingly I'd agree with you on the freedom in decline part, but I suspect not on the cause.

A conspiracy theorist I used to work with gave me a book about the 'New World Order' to read. It was so full of holes it wasn't even funny.

Skyryder

14th March 2010, 17:51

John, you're sounding like a stuck record, mate. :) Besides, the NWO is hardly a socialist thing (it's also an unnecessary conspiracy theory).

Surprisingly I'd agree with you on the freedom in decline part, but I suspect not on the cause.

Exactly. It's the far right who have demolished most freedoms along with the military regimes who act in far rights interests. One only has to look at Pinochet or 'Burma,' and closer to home Hides idea of democracy with the Super City. Now don't get me wrong the left have a bad record on this as well but to conclude that freedom loss began with socialism is as crazy as claiming that democracy began with Gengis Khan.

Skyryder

Fatt Max

14th March 2010, 17:58

New Zealand - little China in the South Pacific.

Howick, Little China in New Zealand

Never, ever trust a man you can blindfold with a shoelace.....

Fatt Max

14th March 2010, 18:01

one word.....well a number to be precise....1984

Adds up to 22, which is the line the England rugby team cant seem to defend these days......

See your point though, I'm that fucked off with all this that I have to have a laugh, then I'll get onto doing summat.....

Ixion

14th March 2010, 18:02

Bingo.

I don't know why anyone gives a shit - just go around it. (unless you are looking for kiddie porn, in which case, burn in hell you scumbag)

I give a shit, because although I can easily enough get round it (now - future, maybe not), but there are hundreds of thousands of people in this country who not only do not have the techie skills to get round it, but don't even realsie that the truth is being massaged before their eyes. Once a society's government starts defining what people are allowed to know and think, that society is in BIG trouble. We just crossed a MASSIVE divide.

Fatt Max

14th March 2010, 18:29

I give a shit, because although I can easily enough get round it (now - future, maybe not), but there are hundreds of thousands of people in this country who not only do not have the techie skills to get round it, but don't even realsie that the truth is being massaged before their eyes. Once a society's government starts defining what people are allowed to know and think, that society is in BIG trouble. We just crossed a MASSIVE divide.

Side issue mate, have you seen my emails? sorry, cant PM you

kwaka_crasher

14th March 2010, 19:55

Exactly. It's the far right who have demolished most freedoms along with the military regimes who act in far rights interests. One only has to look at Pinochet or 'Burma,' and closer to home Hides idea of democracy with the Super City. Now don't get me wrong the left have a bad record on this as well but to conclude that freedom loss began with socialism is as crazy as claiming that democracy began with Gengis Khan.

You are so fucking deluded. :killingme

Hitcher

14th March 2010, 20:37

Then they need warrants to bug you anyway.

No they don't.

Hitcher

14th March 2010, 20:37

Then they need warrants to bug you anyway.

No they don't.

Toaster

14th March 2010, 20:44

No they don't.

Its called an interception warrant. To be lawful yes they do.

kwaka_crasher

14th March 2010, 20:58

Its called an interception warrant. To be lawful yes they do.

Not for long. Heard of the Search and Surveillance Bill (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2009/0045/latest/DLM2136536.html)?

Hitcher

14th March 2010, 21:00

To be lawful yes they do.

Not if they suspect terrorism or other "subversive" activities are afoot.

Toaster

14th March 2010, 21:03

Well that explains how they did the maori activist buggings without warrants then! Its all in the "justification".

Brian d marge

15th March 2010, 02:49

Ok while you may agree with the intent ( i do )

I mean there are some shocking things out there BUT , I would like to be informed WHAT is being chopped and , why ,,, how about letting me know it WAS going to happen

the way it went about was terrible , NOTHING ( apart from stuff ) in the news

Snip

IN NEW ZEALAND some ISPs have started filtering Internet content on behalf of the Kiwi government.
According to Stuff (http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/3434754/New-Zealands-internet-filter-goes-live), the NZ Department of Internal Affairs' (DIA) Internet filter is now operational and is being used by the Internet service providers (ISPs) Maxnet and Watchdog.
However the filter was bought in without much in the way of controversy because the Kiwi government hit on the clever idea of not actually telling anyone. The filter went live on February 1 but the DIA did not announce the fact publicly.
The manager of the DIA's Censorship Compliance Unit, Steve O'Brien, denied that there was subterfuge in the launch of the Internet filter. He said it was trialed for nearly two years and the plans have been shown in the display area of the DIA offices for some time.
We expect that the display area was a cellar and the plans were locked in a filing cabinet marked "beware of the leopard", but we guess it is far too late to moan about it now.
The Kiwi filter is apparently less harsh than the one planned across the Tasman Sea in Australia. The Aussie filter was recently identified by Reporters Without Borders as being on a par with something the might be seen in Saudi Arabia. The Kiwi one just lists sites that contain images of child sexual abuse.
The New Zealand system is also voluntary whereas the Australian one is not. ISPs who have signed up to use it so far have told their customers about it and there are no laws to back it up.
However there is a problem with the way the New Zealand government is going about it. TechLiberty claims the list of what is filtered is kept secret, in direct contrast to the rest of New Zealand's censorship regime where the Chief Censor must publish decisions banning offensive material.

Swampdonkey

15th March 2010, 05:16

Top secret and very hush hush. Switched on 1st of febuary .... I thought by voteing Labour out ,loss of our freedoms would stop.
the internet as we know will soon be screwed..

davereid

15th March 2010, 06:42

Duplicate thread.. can some clever bastard merge em ?

Ronin

15th March 2010, 07:07

Duplicate thread.. can some clever bastard merge em ?

Just check with the censor that it is ok to do so first.

bogan

15th March 2010, 08:28

Just check with the censor that it is ok to do so first.

chances are the other one was censored so it wouldnt have come up in the search ;)

Big Dave

15th March 2010, 09:00

Paranerds.

oldrider

15th March 2010, 09:22

Exactly. It's the far right who have demolished most freedoms along with the military regimes who act in far rights interests. One only has to look at Pinochet or 'Burma,' and closer to home Hides idea of democracy with the Super City. Now don't get me wrong the left have a bad record on this as well but to conclude that freedom loss began with socialism is as crazy as claiming that democracy began with Gengis Khan.

Skyryder

There is no "far right" in New Zealand, everything on serious offer here is well left of centre! (Big government)

The motley lot occupying parliament currently are no different to the last lot.

What difference there is, is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, the ship is still sinking.

MMP makes political parties accountable to their friends of allegiance rather than to the electorate,

You just have look at Key pandering to the Maori party,Act and Dunn.

How many of you "really" voted for that combination?

They selected themselves, they please themselves and they are only accountable to each other!

I voted for and still support proportional representation but MMP is a failure and needs to be completely rehashed or dumped.

MMP governments are like multi tailed dogs and "all" the tails are wagging it's arse off!

We need less government not more and there will be a binding referendum on MMP next election!

Cracked record? Sure but which record is it that's cracked? :mellow:

avgas

15th March 2010, 09:52

I had no idea kiddie porn was such a problem in NZ.
I wonder if it has anything to do with letting arrested pervs live next to schools.........
Typical NZ govt approach - bandaid for the problem, if the bandaid isn't big enough use duct-tape.

oldrider

15th March 2010, 10:43

I had no idea kiddie porn was such a problem in NZ.
I wonder if it has anything to do with letting arrested pervs live next to schools.........
Typical NZ govt approach - bandaid for the problem, if the bandaid isn't big enough use duct-tape.

Makes one wonder how many of them hold influential office in NZ?

Now "that" could be a worrying revelation, if it were possible to get the truth!

avgas

15th March 2010, 10:47

Makes one wonder how many of them hold influential office in NZ?

Now "that" could be a worrying revelation, if it were possible to get the truth!
Unfortunately the answer to that question is quite simple - they were voted in.
Unfortunately at present there is no alternative to voting IN politicians currently however. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Either way they get in.

Skyryder

15th March 2010, 11:09

I give a shit, because although I can easily enough get round it (now - future, maybe not), but there are hundreds of thousands of people in this country who not only do not have the techie skills to get round it, but don't even realsie that the truth is being massaged before their eyes. Once a society's government starts defining what people are allowed to know and think, that society is in BIG trouble. We just crossed a MASSIVE divide.

Or entered into a bottomless abyss.

Skyryder

portokiwi

15th March 2010, 12:55

Unless you are doing something wrong on the nett, Why worry.

EJK

15th March 2010, 12:59

I'm not interested in kiddie porn so I'm all good. Don't mind at all.

Why are you guys so worried about? ;)

SPman

15th March 2010, 13:07

The Privacy Act and Human Rights Act will limit any invasion of privacy unless you are a threat to national security. Then they need warrants to bug you anyway. No they don't!

.delete damn you!!!! ...I should have read the rest of the page...

SPman

15th March 2010, 13:10

Unfortunately the answer to that question is quite simple - they were voted in.
Unfortunately at present there is no alternative to voting IN politicians currently however. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Either way they get in.
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cjohn%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsoht mlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><link rel="themeData" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cjohn%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsoht mlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx"><link rel="colorSchemeMapping" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cjohn%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsoht mlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml"><style>  </style> [I]"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere." --Thomas Jefferson to Abigail Adams, 1787.

Ixion

15th March 2010, 13:43

Unless you are doing something wrong on the nett, Why worry.

Because if "doing something wrong on the net" doesn't currently include "disagreeing with the government", then you may be sure that it soon will.

It is a truism of existence that governments, given something that has a capability to restrict the freedom of the people will use it.

SPman

15th March 2010, 13:54

What Les said.

http://techliberty.org.nz/

If it's like the filter being implemented here in Aus, you can kiss goodbye to real high speed internet - it is acceptable, apparently, to have an up to 80% reduction in speed, when implementing the filter......

The Aus IT minister, Stephen Conroy, has already stated, that Bit Torrent filtering is already being considered (http://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/131665,conroy-making-valiant-effort-then-mentions-bittorrent.aspx), so, for all of you who say "it won't affect me".............

Toaster

15th March 2010, 16:20

No they don't!

.delete damn you!!!! ...I should have read the rest of the page...

Hehe, we all do it! Yeah interesting to see the finer points on this come out. Learn something new every day! Had coffee today with a chap from IA on this. gave me a 50 page document to read on the new legislation coming affecting changes around NZ identity and information theft/fraud etc etc.................

................ I think I will just go for a ride instead.

freedom-wedge

15th March 2010, 19:16

Because if "doing something wrong on the net" doesn't currently include "disagreeing with the government", then you may be sure that it soon will.

It is a truism of existence that governments, given something that has a capability to restrict the freedom of the people will use it.

This was my worry, people would naturally focus on the kiddie porn reasoning behind its intended use, and have no issue with it, personally I think they should bait those sorts of sites and whoop ass when the maggots show up for the material, could this be the careful use of subject matter that most of us find disgusting in order to gain our acceptance of an extreme measure they have taken ???.

mashman

15th March 2010, 19:48

What Les said.

http://techliberty.org.nz/

If it's like the filter being implemented here in Aus, you can kiss goodbye to real high speed internet - it is acceptable, apparently, to have an up to 80% reduction in speed, when implementing the filter......

The Aus IT minister, Stephen Conroy, has already stated, that Bit Torrent filtering is already being considered (http://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/131665,conroy-making-valiant-effort-then-mentions-bittorrent.aspx), so, for all of you who say "it won't affect me".............

Ok, i'll go with... 80% reduction WTF!!! the only reason you would do that is because you want to slow down the flow of traffic (ok not the only, you'd need that room for a giant backup pipe)... for what reasons i wouldn't have a clue... information overload maybe.

Hitcher

15th March 2010, 19:57

The "kiddie porn" gambit is merely designed to suppress debate on the more important issue of eroding personal liberties and freedom of speech.

And it is an effective measure. Once labeled as a kiddie fiddler, even if untrue, a person's reputation is permanently besmirched. Sounds like a pretty good reason to many just to shut the fuck up and let the forces of evil and darkness have their way.

mashman

15th March 2010, 20:02

It is a truism of existence that governments, given something that has a capability to restrict the freedom of the people will use it.

we are but downstairs after all...

Mikkel

15th March 2010, 21:24

It's unbelievable that this is just quietly sneaking under the radar. The NZ media are again letting us all down with their mind-numbingly populist focus on lost puppies, celebrities and other emotion driven "news".

I don't know why anyone gives a shit - just go around it. (unless you are looking for kiddie porn, in which case, burn in hell you scumbag)

It's utterly disturbing how many actually have this attitude. Have we already eroded the very useful skill of critical thinking so far that the majority can not see the potential dangers of censorship.

I give a shit, because although I can easily enough get round it (now - future, maybe not), but there are hundreds of thousands of people in this country who not only do not have the techie skills to get round it, but don't even realsie that the truth is being massaged before their eyes. Once a society's government starts defining what people are allowed to know and think, that society is in BIG trouble. We just crossed a MASSIVE divide.

This is the real issue - and not just that, given time and a "quiet working environment" this information "security" can always be ramped up so less and less techies can get to any information at all.

Its called an interception warrant. To be lawful yes they do.

Not if they suspect terrorism or other "subversive" activities are afoot.

'Suspect terrorism' is the totalitarian regime's 'Get out of jail free' card of the new millennium.

Why are you guys so worried about? ;)

Some of us are worried that young kids, like yourself, are potentially going to grow up in an environment that will preclude you from ever being able to realise the answer to your question. Or, further down the track, even ask it in the first place.

The "kiddie porn" gambit is merely designed to suppress debate on the more important issue of eroding personal liberties and freedom of speech.

And it is an effective measure. Once labeled as a kiddie fiddler, even if untrue, a person's reputation is permanently besmirched. Sounds like a pretty good reason to many just to shut the fuck up and let the forces of evil and darkness have their way.

DISCLAIMER: In the following "kiddie porn" is used as a term to describe any item deemed to be subversive and evil by the establishment. Feel free to substitute with "gay porn", "porn", "terrorist intent", "public dissent", "swear words", "social criticism", "information", et cetera ad nauseum.

Anyone who think "kiddie porn" is going to go away just because we censor it (effectively sticking our heads in the sand) is a fool. "Kiddie porn" pre-dates the internet by quite a few centuries. However callous this may sound, in the specific case of pedophilia, I'd much prefer the perverts to get their kicks of easily distributed digital photographs rather than having to get creative about it around my neighbourhood. Just saying...
Unless anyone can provide factual evidence to suggest that the supply of "kiddie porn" drives the demand for "kiddie porn" - and not the other way around, as is the case for most commodities - I'd have to be argue that any and all filtering is counterproductive.

Brian d marge

15th March 2010, 21:33

No but there is the American ifluence , IMF , etc

NZ could feed and house itself in Style if it weren't for "export everything" cos thats were the money comes from

Stephen

mashman

15th March 2010, 21:35

Some of us are worried that young kids, like yourself, are potentially going to grow up in an environment that will preclude you from ever being able to realise the answer to your question. Or, further down the track, even ask it in the first place.

If that's the case... why aren't you Wise Owls doing anything about it? Us younguns are busy paying taxes and paying your retirement :hug:

Mikkel

15th March 2010, 21:54

If that's the case... why aren't you Wise Owls doing anything about it? Us younguns are busy paying taxes and paying your retirement :hug:

Fuck that is hilarious.

I'm pretty far from the retirement age - even if EJK is significantly further from the retirement age.

As for doing something about it - well, here we are, trying to raise public awareness about what is a really slippery slope. I'll also be voting with my wallet - i.e. go with an internet provider who doesn't adapt the filter. That's about all you can do really... short of giving politics a shot that is.

NighthawkNZ

15th March 2010, 21:55

This has been trialled for some time. DIA claim that only sites containing child porn will be filtered, of course thats what the Aussies claimed, and they filtered child porn, legal porn, political opinion, and basically anything they wanted !

Like Aussie, the NZ censor refuses to tell you what he is censoring, because while chid porn is the excuse, its really not the long term target.

Add in the new police search powers, and a few other laws that have been paced that went under the radar, and a few others they are trying to push through... hey presto a "Police State" just what the Luminati want for your "NWO"... and they are already talking of tagging every one with micro chips... then have been testing it on dogs for how long... people are already warming to the idea... dumb One in four Germans wants microchip under skin (http://www.southernrider.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=10310)

I will bet that down the track NZ filters will filter everything and filter out opinon sites, freedom of speech, truth sites and the like to dumb down the population, standard media already do this, you never get the full story only what they want to feed you...

well you were warned, but most people don't see the whole picture and happy living in the matrix of lies because it feels secure... well it's not...and it will get worse... I wish it was just for child porn but you can bet your bottom dollar it won't be... and they are just using it for an excuse to spy on, and track and dumb down the population

As I have said before it doesn't matter who you vote for... they are all just puppets... you have find the puppeteersif you want change... and you have to look at the big picture... but then that will put a lot of people off because all of a sudden the word conspiracy... yes I know I will get a few heckles from this post... but meh at least I warned you.

the best place to hide something out in the open and under your nose...

rwh

15th March 2010, 22:07

Unless anyone can provide factual evidence to suggest that the supply of "kiddie porn" drives the demand for "kiddie porn" - and not the other way around, as is the case for most commodities - I'd have to be argue that any and all filtering is counterproductive.

My understanding was that the opposite was assumed - the demand drives the supply, making it worthwhile exploiting children to make the porn. If nobody can get it, there's no reason to make it.

I think that's a reasonable argument; I'm against the secrecy of this system though.

Richard

mashman

15th March 2010, 22:07

I'm pretty far from the retirement age - even if EJK is significantly further from the retirement age.

As for doing something about it - well, here we are, trying to raise public awareness about what is a really slippery slope. I'll also be voting with my wallet - i.e. go with an internet provider who doesn't adapt the filter. That's about all you can do really... short of giving politics a shot that is.

T'was just the kids reference is all...

Ain't that the just the shameful truth...

mashman

15th March 2010, 22:11

Add in the new police search powers, and a few other laws that have been paced that went under the radar, and a few others they are trying to push through... hey presto a "Police State" just what the Luminati want for your "NWO"... and they are already talking of tagging every with micro chips... then have been testing it on dogs for how long... people are already warming to the idea... dumb One in four Germans wants microchip under skin

well you were warned, but most people don't see the whole picture and happy living in the matrix of lies because it feels secure... well it's not...and it will get worse...

As I have said before it doesn't matter who you vote for... they are all just puppets... you have find the puppeteersif you want change...

Did you see the latest from Japan on the news tonight... advertising boards that study your face and offer you an advert you might like in, based on your age, gender, profile... lord knows what'll be next...

SS90

16th March 2010, 05:21

Hmmm, what an interesting thread to say the least.

I have to say it is a scary thought, social engineering is bloody disgusting, and, since it is a group of individuals who control the direction of this "engineering", they obviously steer it in a direction that will benefit them (and their families)

Here are the (harsh) realities.

1) This will go ahead.

Just like the Anti smacking Bill,The ACC costs,The Sensible sentencing bill, etc.....All these had over whelming resistance from the NZ public, but, still went ahead, do Kiwi's have the power to FORCE the government to repeal/ammend these bills, YES....but, oh,well, you know, let's just whine about it all, but do nothing, because, Shortland street is on soon, and my Mum is having her hip operation next week, and I need catfood (etc)

Basically, we all need to realise that really, Polititions are self serving gluttons. They always have been (just read editions of "punch" from the 1850's onwards.....always depicting Polititions as "pigs", feeding on the troughs (citizens)

The same is still today, Rodney "perk buster" Hyde is a perfect example.

The fact is, we are all to complacent to do anything about it.

YES, this censorship, thinly veiled as "anti kiddy porn" (nothing wrong with censoring that, should have been much earlier), is here to stay, however, it will be used to control the NZ population, like it or not.

I hope you have all read Orson Wells "1984", because I cannot think of a better example.

It's not a case of "this political party is evil", "this one is not", the fact is it's just a matter of who is going to be in power when it is effected.

If a group of people in office want something to happen, it will, sure occasionally they will "throw you a bone", and give the public the impression that we have democracy, but the reality is democracy is a crock.....god, they even get to spend millions of taxpayers dollars manipulating you to vote for them, often breaking laws in the process, so they change the laws so we can't prosecute them, actually, we can't prosecute them, they actually would have to prosecute themselves.........

Here is a quote for you, I translated it from German.

"Of course the people don't want war,but, after all the leaders of the country are the ones that determine the policy,and it is only a small matter to drag the people along.... where there is democracy,a fascist dictatorship,or a paliament,or a communist dictatorship. With a voice, or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is simple. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger.

That was Herman Goering at a deposition before the Nuremburg trials.

The rules are still the same.

Iraq (war for peace)......Tui moment.

The laws exist requiring the Government to yearly inform us of any site that has been censured from the public, just like they have to inform us of any video material that has been censured...... the information is available, you just have to fill out the right form......but currently, the government "refuse to tell us", just what sites will be censured, just as John Key "refuses to give any information about the mining review" (until the report is released)..... These people are EMPLOYEES of NZ, and we always forget it.

I say yes for censurship of Child porn, but, they (by their own laws) have to tell us every year which sites are banned.

Simple.

But, this will go ahead, and, many other sites will be banned, because it won't be on the news anymore, because, the news is broadcast by a state owned enterprise, and it simply won't be on the news any more. That means it doesn't exsist.....right?

Mikkel

16th March 2010, 09:02

My understanding was that the opposite was assumed - the demand drives the supply, making it worthwhile exploiting children to make the porn. If nobody can get it, there's no reason to make it.

I think that's a reasonable argument; I'm against the secrecy of this system though.

It's a reasonable argument - but it is based on a flawed assumption: the filter will prevent people from obtaining said contraband.

It's the same flawed assumption that provides the base for a lot of laws that are out of touch with reality. This idea that "if we say it's forbidden, nobody will do it". The world just doesn't work that way. E.g. name any illegal drug you could care to think about - how difficult would it be for you to obtain (and if that particular one isn't readily available, something worse will be)? And that is despite the authorities banning any and all trading and importing of said commodity - i.e. acting as a filter.

As for the demand itself - while it is possible that it does, to some extent, depend upon the availability - making a commodity harder to get does not remove the demand altogether. So to amend my previous statement, I'd rather have a thousand paedophiles jacking off to the same digital image than have one die-hard pervert getting creative around my neighbourhood.

oldrider

16th March 2010, 09:15

Hmmm, what an interesting thread to say the least.

I have to say it is a scary thought, social engineering is bloody disgusting, and, since it is a group of individuals who control the direction of this "engineering", they obviously steer it in a direction that will benefit them (and their families)

Here are the (harsh) realities.

1) This will go ahead.

Just like the Anti smacking Bill,The ACC costs,The Sensible sentencing bill, etc.....All these had over whelming resistance from the NZ public, but, still went ahead, do Kiwi's have the power to FORCE the government to repeal/ammend these bills, YES....but, oh,well, you know, let's just whine about it all, but do nothing, because, Shortland street is on soon, and my Mum is having her hip operation next week, and I need catfood (etc)

Basically, we all need to realise that really, Polititions are self serving gluttons. They always have been (just read editions of "punch" from the 1850's onwards.....always depicting Polititions as "pigs", feeding on the troughs (citizens)

The same is still today, Rodney "perk buster" Hyde is a perfect example.

The fact is, we are all to complacent to do anything about it.

YES, this censorship, thinly veiled as "anti kiddy porn" (nothing wrong with censoring that, should have been much earlier), is here to stay, however, it will be used to control the NZ population, like it or not.

I hope you have all read Orson Wells "1984", because I cannot think of a better example.

It's not a case of "this political party is evil", "this one is not", the fact is it's just a matter of who is going to be in power when it is effected.

If a group of people in office want something to happen, it will, sure occasionally they will "throw you a bone", and give the public the impression that we have democracy, but the reality is democracy is a crock.....god, they even get to spend millions of taxpayers dollars manipulating you to vote for them, often breaking laws in the process, so they change the laws so we can't prosecute them, actually, we can't prosecute them, they actually would have to prosecute themselves.........

Here is a quote for you, I translated it from German.

"Of course the people don't want war,but, after all the leaders of the country are the ones that determine the policy,and it is only a small matter to drag the people along.... where there is democracy,a fascist dictatorship,or a paliament,or a communist dictatorship. With a voice, or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is simple. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger.

That was Herman Goering at a deposition before the Nuremburg trials.

The rules are still the same.

Iraq (war for peace)......Tui moment.

The laws exist requiring the Government to yearly inform us of any site that has been censured from the public, just like they have to inform us of any video material that has been censured...... the information is available, you just have to fill out the right form......but currently, the government "refuse to tell us", just what sites will be censured, just as John Key "refuses to give any information about the mining review" (until the report is released)..... These people are EMPLOYEES of NZ, and we always forget it.

I say yes for censurship of Child porn, but, they (by their own laws) have to tell us every year which sites are banned.

Simple.

But, this will go ahead, and, many other sites will be banned, because it won't be on the news anymore, because, the news is broadcast by a state owned enterprise, and it simply won't be on the news any more. That means it doesn't exsist.....right?

True! Good post.

While we fight among our selves over which flavour of government we want, MMP ensures them of their place in the mix and the beat goes on regardless!

What a rort, a bit like Henry Ford's "any colour you like, so long as it's black"!

You can vote for any party you like, you can mix any flavour combination at the end and although everything changes superficially, the end result remains the same!

Dave Lobster

16th March 2010, 11:19

Well that explains how they did the maori activist buggings without warrants then! Its all in the "justification".

They did have warrants. They just weren't allowed to prosecute for firearms offences with evidence gained for terrorist warrants.

Badly written (shock) laws, rather than the police breaking law for their own pesonal gain.

Mudfart

16th March 2010, 12:52

you can argue against mmp or any other form of political party representation. at the end of the day, any system of "democracy" is ways and means of keeping fucktard corrupt money theives with their hands on our money.
Ask my work collegues, I have told them ever since Kiwisaver started that as soon as the sum got too large for ANY politician to ignore, they would simply TAKE it. I thought taking someone elses hard earned cash was theft?
I guess politicians are above the laws they make huh?
Good ole backwards cousin marrying NZers, will simply role over and die complaining, we can take and do whatever we want. No fear of violent coups in NZ. Unless its for a "worthy" cause aye? Like aparthied, or whaling, or something else that is going on somewhere else.....
Look at Hone Harawera, makes such incredibly racist comments, if that was reversed and a pakeha, palangi, cracker, had of said that about a Maori or Islander, they would be out of a job. But hey he doesn't care what the majority NZ public thinks, "I only care what my people of Taitokerau think"!!!!!!!

Brian d marge

16th March 2010, 12:55

My friend has been working on that , The billboard scans the crowd works out what demographic is looking at it and chnges the advert to suit
while that souds impressive , that technology is already in use from manufacturing to Asimo
it and it keeps showing me pictures of the next

but i do mind a decent family in east Auckland pushing shit up hill because XYZ corp needs to return a profit ON THE BASICS OF LIFE

FOOD , WATER EDUCATION, BASIC HEALTH

Now i get pissed off.

Stephen

Skyryder

16th March 2010, 16:42

They can do what they like and this clause allows it.

Immunity of the Crown

*

If any person is immune from civil liability under any of sections 157 to 159 in respect of anything done or omitted to be done, the Crown is also immune from civil liability in tort in respect of that person's conduct.

Skyryder

SS90

16th March 2010, 22:58

This thread is just about done it's dash..... a couple more posts, then nothing.......that's why the "governments" can do it to us.......our voices mean nothing when they are loud....and then just fade away........we get what we deserve....nothing......

freedom-wedge

17th March 2010, 07:40

This thread is just about done it's dash..... a couple more posts, then nothing.......that's why the "governments" can do it to us.......our voices mean nothing when they are loud....and then just fade away........we get what we deserve....nothing......

True its been the same for a while now we just sit back down eventually even the loud shouters do, the trouble is its harder these days to object because of the slow eradication of defiance at all levels and the implementation of compliance strategies over the top of this senior academics have been warning for a while about the dangers of the emerging system but their voices are but a whisper, probably due to not being able to speak out publicly or their academic situation suddenly becomes short of cash. This thread has highlighted many concerns and mostly by people who can see the big picture and are likewise worried about the situation of over bearing governance. Someone posted a link further back that gives the police greater powers of search, if you haven’t had a good read go and have a look, its this mindset that will ride right over the voices of liberal oriented people, and what’s more its being applied across the board. We are renters in our own country and the government have installed themselves as landlords and owners and they mean for this to continue.

We have a right to believe that the government will protect and provide in times of need, its why we pay into the collective, its not ok to exchange personal freedoms for government controls, EVER and measures implemented by them should reflect this but it doesn’t seem to.

bogan

17th March 2010, 08:05

I'm sure the majority of NZ'rs would be opposed to this filter, however as usual the government manipulates us into allowing such bills to be passed. Surely some in government must think that if they need to manipulate the people maybe its something that the do not want? Like passing it off as anti CP, sounds fine right, till you read that they dont have to divulge what sites they are actually blocking, but most wont read that far so wont get up in arms bout it. And thats the other thing, so many NZ'rs just accept that the government are going to screw us over on so many 'little' things and don't speak out. If there was ever a party running that stood for straight up, open politics, thay would get my vote :yes:

mashman

17th March 2010, 09:05

probably due to not being able to speak out publicly or their academic situation suddenly becomes short of cash.

That's the only thing that stops me from trying to do anything about it... and that's not likely to change as I have a family that needs CASH in order to be looked after... You can't keep an eye on all of the law making that goes on in Parliament, because you have to work, spend time with family and friends etc... and keeping abreast of every single issue, as an individual, is improbable... you need a team to do that... Things like this filter are just slaps in the face to the populous (or a test to make sure they're still not listening), but noone's listening, and that's through their own choice... why care if there's nothing you can do about it... You've ONLY got 4 million people here... how could you possibly be heard?

SS90

17th March 2010, 09:11

If there was ever a party running that stood for straight up, open politics, thay would get my vote :yes:

There WAS a party that campaigned on that line, with Rodney "Perk Buster" Hyde riding on that promise all the way to the Beehive............

Lying fat pig.

I am sure he started out with that good intention, but when he got there, he saw that it was just a great big trough to stick your snout in, and you where ostrasized if you didn't "have a wee nibble now and then"

Governments have controlled the media since it's inception, and now the internet has got out of hand/easy control/too much information, they have to trim it back, and, the best way to sell it it the public, is slip it in under the extremely easy to push cover of "anti child porn" (a subject that turns the stomach of even the hardest man)

I was just wondering, since I am on the other side of the world and cannot see the NZ news, is this receiving much air time (or any at all).......because, this is very serious, and, when it is no longer current (find something else to distract us), it will just flit through unopposed like all the others.

shit guys, more than 90% of the population wanted harsher sentences for violent criminals, and the government didn't do it..... THAT IS NOT DEMOCRACY......... I can't help but wonder why there was any advantage for the country in not increasing minimum penalties for violent crimes............ a group of people are making money somewhere somehow off that.

freedom-wedge

17th March 2010, 09:18

They did have warrants. They just weren't allowed to prosecute for firearms offences with evidence gained for terrorist warrants.

Badly written (shock) laws, rather than the police breaking law for their own pesonal gain.

There are people still facing charges over all of that and are being shafted, trail date somtime in 2011, c,mon the right to a speedy trial has been overlooked, unfortunately its not the worst of it, just a reminder is all, we forget so much at times, people are being messed with here just becuase the powers that be, can and do.

SS90

17th March 2010, 09:18

That's the only thing that stops me from trying to do anything about it... and that's not likely to change as I have a family that needs CASH in order to be looked after... You can't keep an eye on all of the law making that goes on in Parliament, because you have to work, spend time with family and friends etc... and keeping abreast of every single issue, as an individual, is improbable... you need a team to do that... Things like this filter are just slaps in the face to the populous (or a test to make sure they're still not listening), but noone's listening, and that's through their own choice... why care if there's nothing you can do about it... You've ONLY got 4 million people here... how could you possibly be heard?

That is exactly how it works........ As far back as "organised governments" first saw the light of day, the populous where controlled by the basic human nature of self preservation.

The squeaky wheel doesn't actually get any grease......... it get's retired to the knackers yard, like poor old boxer (using another Orwellian example)

It doesn't need to be that way.

SS90

17th March 2010, 09:21

There are people still facing charges over all of that and are being shafted, trail date somtime in 2011, c,mon the right to a speedy trial has been overlooked, unfortunately its not the worst of it, just a reminder is all, we forget so much at times, people are being messed with here just becuase the powers that be, can and do.
I don't know if I agree with that.

Alot of delays are caused by over paid defence Lawers "buying time" using the human rights laws etc.

Mikkel

17th March 2010, 09:25

The problem about doing anything seriously about it is that it is not that easy. You only have three principle options as I see it:

1) Armed revolution TODAY - not going to happen, people are generally too well of and therefore complacent.

2) Work the system from the inside (i.e. get into politics) - alas, all evidence suggests that either you have to be cynical and dishonest to get into a position of actual political power or you will become that way during your "rise" to power. (And those who don't and actually engages in politics that are contrary to populist appeal become demonised.)

3) Establish a political watchdog, an independent entity which engages in critical journalism in order to highlight the potential dangers of proposed initiatives - as such fulfilling the role that the press is supposed to take care of.

Personally I think 3) is the better option - and sorely needed in NZ. Alas, it would take skilled journalists, lawyers and managers who doesn't have to worry about finances related to the political climate. But if anyone knows of someone who would be happy to throw in the order of $1 million a year at such a project, maybe something could be done.

freedom-wedge

17th March 2010, 09:26

I don't know if I agree with that.

Alot of delays are caused by over paid defence Lawers "buying time" using the human rights laws etc.

Sure that goes on and its a valid point, but if you read up you will see what this trial is all about. October the 15 solidarity group, you will get theirside of it anyway. Back to the filter, if we think this wont be filtering our moring coffee in a few years were mistaken.

freedom-wedge

17th March 2010, 09:43

The problem about doing anything seriously about it is that it is not that easy. You only have three principle options as I see it:

1) Armed revolution TODAY - not going to happen, people are generally too well of and therefore complacent.

2) Work the system from the inside (i.e. get into politics) - alas, all evidence suggests that either you have to be cynical and dishonest to get into a position of actual political power or you will become that way during your "rise" to power. (And those who don't and actually engages in politics that are contrary to populist appeal become demonised.)

3) Establish a political watchdog, an independent entity which engages in critical journalism in order to highlight the potential dangers of proposed initiatives - as such fulfilling the role that the press is supposed to take care of.

Personally I think 3) is the better option - and sorely needed in NZ. Alas, it would take skilled journalists, lawyers and managers who doesn't have to worry about finances related to the political climate. But if anyone knows of someone who would be happy to throw in the order of $1 million a year at such a project, maybe something could be done.

Option 3 would be the good choice and you are correct over due. It would put a stop to the use of heart string terminology used to justify extreme measures, only the facts should be presented. Within this filter there is secrecy that should not be there, and the potential for its misuse is enormous. But we all believe that it will be used ethically right.

bogan

17th March 2010, 09:50

yeh, 3 is good option, cept it would work a lot better if it was the press filling this role, wouldn't get the coverage otherwise.

Insanity_rules

17th March 2010, 09:51

Welcome to New Zealand , an official subsidiary of China. Big John and his cronies are now watching YOU! Nanny state anyone? Do we know the Aussies are laughing at us?

mashman

17th March 2010, 10:10

Welcome to New Zealand , an official subsidiary of China. Big John and his cronies are now watching YOU! Nanny state anyone? Do we know the Aussies are laughing at us?

In which case... Hi John, I can't be arsed implementing Option 4 (I believe there is one, but won't be discussing it here)... and if you don't ask, you don't get... so, could you just back the fuck off and action what the people request please...

Ixion

17th March 2010, 10:12

Nope, they're not laughing at us. Oz is even further down this road than NZ. Haven't you heard of the Great Firewall of Oz ? (Google it)

kwaka_crasher

17th March 2010, 11:49

Just think... if they're doing this shit NOW exactly WTF have they got planned for when the Wankby world cup bullshit is on, when the moronic minions are distracted! :shit: :blink:

mashman

17th March 2010, 11:55

Just think... if they're doing this shit NOW exactly WTF have they got planned for when the Wankby world cup bullshit is on, when the moronic minions are distracted! :shit: :blink:

hey, i'm allowed to be moronic for 90 minutes at a time when the football (NOT SOCCER) is on...

kwaka_crasher

17th March 2010, 12:12

hey, i'm allowed to be moronic for 90 minutes at a time when the football (NOT SOCCER) is on...

That's 90 minutes wasted that you'll never get back.

mashman

17th March 2010, 12:23

That's 90 minutes wasted that you'll never get back.

It's my 90 minutes... i'll do with it what I please thank you very much :yes:... you tootle off there and play with your oddly shaped balls :shifty:...

davereid

17th March 2010, 12:35

Do we know the Aussies are laughing at us?

The aussie filter is compulsory, and they don't even attempt to claim its about kiddie porn.

They censor anything they want, with the aussie govt having admitted that less than 1/3 of the list is even alledged to be illegal porn.

http://cyberlaw.org.uk/2009/05/28/australian-government-admits-less-than-32-of-secret-censorship-list-is-related-to-underage-images/

Dave Lobster

17th March 2010, 13:10

There are people still facing charges over all of that and are being shafted, trail date somtime in 2011, c'mon the right to a speedy trial has been overlooked, unfortunately its not the worst of it, just a reminder is all, we forget so much at times, people are being messed with here just becuase the powers that be, can and do.

It's not just that trial. That sort of a timeframe is quite normal for most serious crimes.

I don't know if I agree with that.

Alot of delays are caused by over paid defence Lawers "buying time" using the human rights laws etc.

Buying time at our expense. Again, that's normal. They'll be the ones dragging it out so the public's eye is distracted, and will have forgotten about it.

Just think, if it gets dragged out for long enough, it'll be on that Sensing Bullshit programme on the propaganda box..

See Also.. (http://forum.vodafone.co.nz/topic/4760-nz-internet-filter/)

Insanity_rules

17th March 2010, 13:45

They refer to New Zealand as the place they outlawed fun, trust me I've just been and heard! Made me sick to my stomach.

kwaka_crasher

17th March 2010, 13:51

It's my 90 minutes... i'll do with it what I please thank you very much :yes:... you tootle off there and play with your oddly shaped balls :shifty:...

I've heard alcoholics spout that same mantra.

Oh well, I guess you'll get the governance you deserve.

SPman

17th March 2010, 13:55

The aussie filter is compulsory, and they don't even attempt to claim its about kiddie porn.

They censor anything they want, with the aussie govt having admitted that less than 1/3 of the list is even alledged to be illegal porn.

http://cyberlaw.org.uk/2009/05/28/australian-government-admits-less-than-32-of-secret-censorship-list-is-related-to-underage-images/
It's officially only at the trial stage - it's not proposed to become law until after the next elections, so that whoever gets in can say they have a "mandate from the peoplel" to implement it!!! They even censor sites that divulge information about it!

Oh yes - pron makes up less than 1% of all internet traffic - the biggest (mis)user of the net is Spam - up to 70% of all emails are spam! Surely it would be better for the governments to attack spammers...but...it isn't an emotion puller like kiddie porn......

Pedrostt500

17th March 2010, 13:58

Option 3 would be the good choice and you are correct over due. It would put a stop to the use of heart string terminology used to justify extreme measures, only the facts should be presented. Within this filter there is secrecy that should not be there, and the potential for its misuse is enormous. But we all believe that it will be used ethically right.

Any watch dog group set up to censor the cencors, would be easy for a Beauracrat / Government to side step, Just cut their funds off, and send them on wild goose chases, fill the intrays up with somuch paper work that it will be 99% garbage and not give them the time or staff to read through it.

keep in mind Governments Change, both as in People and Parties, but what does not change is the beauractats in the back office, ( Remember that kid that was always picked on in School, and now has an inferiorority complex, and wants to see you pay dearly), they are the ones who want total controll over what yuou see eat and do.

freedom-wedge

17th March 2010, 16:55

It's not just that trial. That sort of a timeframe is quite normal for most serious crimes.

Buying time at our expense. Again, that's normal. They'll be the ones dragging it out so the public's eye is distracted, and will have forgotten about it.

Just think, if it gets dragged out for long enough, it'll be on that Sensing Bullshit programme on the propaganda box..

See Also.. (http://forum.vodafone.co.nz/topic/4760-nz-internet-filter/)

This is a side issue but the charges laid after the event don’t warrant what’s going on, if you read the case notes and such you will see its the crown dragging this out and hoping everyone forgets because they need people to forget such a blunder. laws are being changed on the back of it also, blunder begets further extremes. Check out the charges they are facing and you decide if this was all worth it. I know your right about this in the norm but this case isn’t normal

Skyryder

17th March 2010, 17:24

I was listening to RNZ on the way home and they were talking about the Internet access as a Human Right. I’ve just had a quick look at some of this and there is bit of stuff on the net on this issue.

Here is one link where it has been made law.

http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/is_internet_access_a_fundamental_human_right_franc .php

The RNZ guest was talking about where there is a right there also exists a responsibility. I think that this is fundamentally true. Rights are enshrined in law but if you abuse these rights then there are penalties for doing so.

Each and everyone has the right to sit for a drivers licence when reaching a certain age. There is no right that it must be given to you unless you can pass some tests.

We have rights in a marriage but break them and you may find that these rights no longer exist if the other partner chooses to ‘terminate’ the marriage. Essentially rights have responsibilities designed so that society is not inconvenienced with by those who chose to exercise their rights.

Which brings me to the question. Do we have the right to access the internet, and if so

Should these rights be subject to laws and regulation in a manner that is not contrary to the values that society hold in general??

Skyryder

davereid

17th March 2010, 17:51

I was listening to RNZ on the way home and they were talking about the Internet access as a Human Right. I’ve just had a quick look at some of this and there is bit of stuff on the net on this issue.

Here is one link where it has been made law.

http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/is_internet_access_a_fundamental_human_right_franc .php

The RNZ guest was talking about where there is a right there also exists a responsibility. I think that this is fundamentally true. Rights are enshrined in law but if you abuse these rights then there are penalties for doing so.

Each and everyone has the right to sit for a drivers licence when reaching a certain age. There is no right that it must be given to you unless you can pass some tests.

We have rights in a marriage but break them and you may find that these rights no longer exist if the other partner chooses to ‘terminate’ the marriage. Essentially rights have responsibilities designed so that society is not inconvenienced with by those who chose to exercise their rights.

Which brings me to the question. Do we have the right to access the internet, and if so

Should these rights be subject to laws and regulation in a manner that is not contrary to the values that society hold in general??

Skyryder

I think its a bit rich to describe internet access as a human right - its a technology, it doesnt really qualify.

But, you cpuld convince me that you have the right to information that is not modified, distorted or couurpted by someone "smarter"

kwaka_crasher

17th March 2010, 17:57

Rights are enshrined in law but if you abuse these rights then there are penalties for doing so.

<snip>

Which brings me to the question. Do we have the right to access the internet, and if so should these rights be subject to laws and regulation in a manner that is not contrary to the values that society hold in general??

That's simply not the issue here. It's the secrecy and the fact it won't be effective for it's intended purpose but can easily be harnessed to prevent claimed unintended purposes in very short order.

I see some are claiming that the filter is to prevent accidental access. That is a weak argument. I've been using the internet since it became mainstream here and I've never accessed, accidentally or otherwise, any child pornography.

Skyryder

17th March 2010, 18:37

I think its a bit rich to describe internet access as a human right - its a technology, it doesnt really qualify.

But, you cpuld convince me that you have the right to information that is not modified, distorted or couurpted by someone "smarter"

The last sentance could be construed as grounds to ban the internet.

To be fair I have not formed an opinion on this yet as this s'arvo was the first time I have heard of the possibilty of having access to the net a human right.

I'm not too sure that technowledgy is grounds for dismissal on this. Do we have a human right to expect propper sanitation in our cities, water, electricity............all of these are provided by technologies. The fact that some of these 'services' can be curtailed if we fail to meet out obligations to them suggests that on these 'items' human rights do not exist. But herin lies a problem. There are provisions with WINZ where if payment can not be made (obligations) the state picks up the tab. This leads to another question is there a 'rights issue here or is it one of compassion?

The point is...................does a technology automaticly exclude itself....... and is a human right nothing more than a freedom to choose or act in a manner accepted withing the values of our western democracy.

Skyryder

Skyryder

17th March 2010, 18:52

That's simply not the issue here. It's the secrecy and the fact it won't be effective for it's intended purpose but can easily be harnessed to prevent claimed unintended purposes in very short order.

I see some are claiming that the filter is to prevent accidental access. That is a weak argument. I've been using the internet since it became mainstream here and I've never accessed, accidentally or otherwise, any child pornography.

Most laws can be circumvented and I agree that having a law which I think this filter is, (there may well be some debat on that) will in no way prevent persons from breaking it. But I have raised another issue and in truth I am not too sure if this is related with the filter or not. you say no. I have no reson to disagree as I am in the dark on a lot of IT issues. But the French decision does raise an interesting point that I bought up and that is rights do have obligations attached to them. These obligations are in statute and break someof these and your right to move a bout will be curtailed for a number or months or years.

davereid has said no on the grounds that the internet is a technology.....................I'm not too sure that I agree with this as said in a previous post...............so I'm going to sit back and see if anyone takes this up.

Skyryder

bogan

17th March 2010, 19:32

davereid has said no on the grounds that the internet is a technology.....................I'm not too sure that I agree with this as said in a previous post...............so I'm going to sit back and see if anyone takes this up.

the hardware used is a technology, and the communication medium, but the information itself isn't. Though its hardly the first time the gubbermint has withheld info is it.

kwaka_crasher

17th March 2010, 19:41

...I am in the dark on a lot of IT issues.

As are the majority. Therein lies the most insidious problem - over time most are not even going to know what's being 'censored'.

Sure, I can get around the filtering at this level, as can others, including, I'm sure, the majority of CP addicts due to their 'hobby' being so largely based on the internet these days and their need for anonymity. But who is to say the creep of filtering won't gradually be expanded, given some actually believe "it is the absolute right of the state to supervise the formation of public opinion".

It's the camels nose under the tent...

oldrider

17th March 2010, 19:52

It's the camels nose under the tent...

Ah ha, the Arab, the camel and the tent! Haven't heard that one for a while now but it's still a good fit for this behaviour! :yes:

kwaka_crasher

17th March 2010, 20:14

Ah ha, the Arab, the camel and the tent! Haven't heard that one for a while now but it's still a good fit for this behaviour! :yes:

I'm sure you'd agree that "the thin end of the wedge" and "slippery slope" gets a little dull. :yes:

mashman

18th March 2010, 13:51

They refer to New Zealand as the place they outlawed fun, trust me I've just been and heard! Made me sick to my stomach.

THEY... who what when where why?

avgas

18th March 2010, 14:13

Welcome to New Zealand , an official subsidiary of China. Big John and his cronies are now watching YOU! Nanny state anyone? Do we know the Aussies are laughing at us?
Not really they had a worse internet filtration in place a year ago........trust me, I was there.

avgas

18th March 2010, 14:20

The problem about doing anything seriously about it is that it is not that easy. You only have three principle options as I see it:

1) Armed revolution TODAY - not going to happen, people are generally too well of and therefore complacent.

2) Work the system from the inside (i.e. get into politics) - alas, all evidence suggests that either you have to be cynical and dishonest to get into a position of actual political power or you will become that way during your "rise" to power. (And those who don't and actually engages in politics that are contrary to populist appeal become demonised.)

3) Establish a political watchdog, an independent entity which engages in critical journalism in order to highlight the potential dangers of proposed initiatives - as such fulfilling the role that the press is supposed to take care of.

Personally I think 3) is the better option - and sorely needed in NZ. Alas, it would take skilled journalists, lawyers and managers who doesn't have to worry about finances related to the political climate. But if anyone knows of someone who would be happy to throw in the order of $1 million a year at such a project, maybe something could be done.
Wasn't 3 what supposedly "scoop" was 5 years ago......then they too sold their soul to the devil.

I actually prefer 1.......just for once.
Seems all the other big changes in NZ happened when we had a revolution.
Its a shame there wasn't just a Hikoi just to say "Fuck you" to the govt.

SS90

19th March 2010, 01:02

Oh yes - pron makes up less than 1% of all internet traffic -

I'm well above the average then!

SS90

19th March 2010, 11:48

Don't stop talking about this guys........ you are all demonstrating exactly why Herman Gouering was right in the statement he made in 1947.......

Perhaps it would be wise to put more value on our freedom we have just now, such as our freedom to put our opinions in a public forum such as this........ because once we lose that freedom we will never ever get it back.

mashman

19th March 2010, 11:59

Don't stop talking about this guys........ you are all demonstrating exactly why Herman Gouering was right in the statement he made in 1947.......

Perhaps it would be wise to put more value on our freedom we have just now, such as our freedom to put our opinions in a public forum such as this........ because once we lose that freedom we will never ever get it back.

Hmmmm... can't see them shutting down KB turning out well...

kwaka_crasher

19th March 2010, 12:13

Hmmmm... can't see them shutting down KB turning out well...

Yeah. We might organise a single, orderly ride to parliament to have a moan then just accept it when they just half shut it down. :killingme :rofl:

mashman

19th March 2010, 12:19

Yeah. We might organise a single, orderly ride to parliament to have a moan then just accept it when they just half shut it down. :killingme :rofl:

(snigger chortle snort) Well they are used to doing things by halves...

Brian d marge

20th March 2010, 23:57

If you want to know what IS happening to NZ NOW watch what has and is happening to Venezuela now and the American response to Chavez (?)

Borrow the money, pay it back or pay it back cheaper if you privatize ,,,not on my Nelly said Charvez

or words to that effect

I vote Chavez , or the NZ Equivalent ,,,,,,,oh we don't have one ,,,oh well I'm sure that nice man John Key will look after my family

Stephen

Pixie

21st March 2010, 11:44

Freedom began it's major decline with the birth of socialism, the United Nations and the New World Order!

Where is Helen Clark these days?

She is a Socialist working at the United Nations creating a New World Order

Pixie

21st March 2010, 11:59

The "kiddie porn" gambit is merely designed to suppress debate on the more important issue of eroding personal liberties and freedom of speech.

And it is an effective measure. Once labeled as a kiddie fiddler, even if untrue, a person's reputation is permanently besmirched. Sounds like a pretty good reason to many just to shut the fuck up and let the forces of evil and darkness have their way.

The "$77 on every rego" gambit

Mudfart

21st March 2010, 12:21

ahhh where would we be if we didnt have the ultimate bully on our backs? Our own govt.
Threatening us, with stigmatising us with the greatest, (or worst) of modern day societies taboos.
It really is a great tool to supress the revolution isnt it? FEAR. Divide and conquer, its all they have left.
They were scared shitless of Napoleon and the french rev, Hitler and Mussolini the fascists, Stalin and the red rev, Mao and the chinese rev, whats his name and the vietnam rev, the korean rev, the list goes on. The only hidden factor here, is that with all these govts that were shut down using WAR to defeat them, they all had highly effective secret police who stamped pretty damn hard on political corruption and misappropriation of the peoples money.

Yep, democracy is the winner, where every polititian gets their hands on the peoples purses.
They can sell all the state owned enterprises they want, there STILL wont be enough money at the end of the day. A legitimised theifs' greed knows no bounds.

rwh

23rd March 2010, 06:57

It really is a great tool to supress the revolution isnt it? FEAR. Divide and conquer, its all they have left.
They were scared shitless of Napoleon and the french rev, Hitler and Mussolini the fascists, Stalin and the red rev, Mao and the chinese rev, whats his name and the vietnam rev, the korean rev, the list goes on. The only hidden factor here, is that with all these govts that were shut down using WAR to defeat them, they all had highly effective secret police who stamped pretty damn hard on political corruption and misappropriation of the peoples money.

I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying here. That all these nasty governments weren't as bad as they seemed, because they had secret police keeping them honest? I don't think that's a view I've heard before.

It seems to me that political corruption and misappropriation of the people's money is best acheived by openness and transparency - the exact opposite of having a police force that works in secret, suppressing information.

They can sell all the state owned enterprises they want, there STILL wont be enough money at the end of the day. A legitimised theifs' greed knows no bounds.

Well, of course - if you flog off a profit-making venture for short term cash, you earn less money. If it wasn't profit-making, or at least had the potential to be, you couldn't sell it. (Of course if you (govt) choose to operate it in a non-profit manner (as opposed to merely operating it at a loss through incompetence), you can take the social benefits instead.)

Richard

SS90

23rd March 2010, 08:09

I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying here. That all these nasty governments weren't as bad as they seemed, because they had secret police keeping them honest? I don't think that's a view I've heard before.

It seems to me that political corruption and misappropriation of the people's money is best acheived by openness and transparency - the exact opposite of having a police force that works in secret, suppressing information.

Well, of course - if you flog off a profit-making venture for short term cash, you earn less money. If it wasn't profit-making, or at least had the potential to be, you couldn't sell it. (Of course if you (govt) choose to operate it in a non-profit manner (as opposed to merely operating it at a loss through incompetence), you can take the social benefits instead.)

Richard

Selling SOE's is another matter entirely, it pains me too se that successive governments have simply flogged of publicly owned assets to offshore investors, only to see them turn them into massive profit making entities, that should have been done by the government in the first place. Hell, we have Australian and Asian companies having Kiwi's slaving away in their own country, while the profits go offshore!

What the Hell?

freedom-wedge

23rd March 2010, 08:26

Wasn't 3 what supposedly "scoop" was 5 years ago......then they too sold their soul to the devil.

I actually prefer 1.......just for once.
Seems all the other big changes in NZ happened when we had a revolution.
Its a shame there wasn't just a Hikoi just to say "Fuck you" to the govt.

That’s exactly what’s needed, faces in their face, they will not stop the roller coaster now its started and so much legislation is being pushed through without contest why would you if its going your way. We are only 4 million and it’s hard to be heard, real hard when they would rather not hear you. I hear from so many people and most comment that most government departments are a law unto them selves and fear not public opinion in individual form. I would say I have to agree. There has to be some sort of pressure group that can shake its head and cause a government to stop and take notice, I think you just might see a rebellion of sorts because of the mining the parks, I’m all for doing things to drive our economy, but listening to Brownlee speak about it I feel already that they aren’t telling the truth. They are interested in the rare earth minerals, read about them and what they are used for because china is slowing production right down and they are the biggest exporter of them, We will not do as well as we think we will from the endeavour other bigger countries will and perhaps they are even behind the move to stem the shortages, as usual at most it will be cents for NZ in a multi billion dollar deal. I’m all for cashing in on anything that benefits us as a nation, only a few will benefit from this as usual I feel.

Its a little off topic but there are like minds active in this thread, do a little quick research on rare earth minerals and work it out, I’m interested in what people have to say. I haven’t said my last on the filter nor on the right to state a case against any under handed manoeuvre by the our Government.

Camels nose under the tent indeed, I had to laugh at that comment, so true though aye what

mashman

23rd March 2010, 08:34

It's New Zealands good old too hard basket again... Having said that though it's the same in every country... If the dipshits at the top can't be arsed spending the time and money required to bring SOE's up to date and running efficiently, they just find a buyer (at great expense), well, investor, and the investor puts the time and effort into it and turns it into a profit making business... We're quite happy to have govt lead us these days and provided they're looking at Health, or Education, or the current hot potato of the moment, then there's carte blanche to throw as much resource at the issue as they feel is necessary and just say we underestimated the project... We buy into that. If you're constantly blowing budget and timescales at work what happens? You get fired! You're shit at your job... get the fuck out... INSTANTLY...

Mudfart

23rd March 2010, 08:36

It seems to me that political corruption and misappropriation of the people's money is best acheived by openness and transparency - the exact opposite of having a police force that works in secret, suppressing information.

Thanks for backing up my point. Political corruption and misappropriation of funds is best acheived by....."democracy".
As for your other points, don't be fooled by historical propaganda that Hitler was the worst of the worst blah blah blah. He is "credited" with 7.5 million jews dead, although he only gave the order to fix the problem, it was others that decided gassing them dead was the answer to fix the problem.
Josef Stalin is credited with an estimated 50+ million dead during his reign of terror, with at least 15 million being jews. He absolutely hated jews. Then there was chairman Mao, he ordered that all of China take a week off work to kill all the sparrows in China. The next year there wasnt enough birds to eat the insects, so all the crops got fucked, and 60+ million chinese died in a single famine. Fathers were killing themselves so the mother could cook them to feed the children.
Then Mao was responsible for another famine...... Well over 100 Million dead.....
Now look at America, and the other "free" countries. If you haven't been outside NZ or Oz then you might as well stick your head up your ass. Because I'll tell you right now, there are homeless and parentless children in other firstworld countries, its no myth.
No form of govt is flawless but ours has a tonne of space for improvement.
A university degree in economics doesn't tell me you are wise enough to earn the honour of representing the people.
Hell I got a Dip and a BSc, I should at least be an MP, right?

Mudfart

23rd March 2010, 08:38

oh yeah a Josef Stalin quote,
"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic".

freedom-wedge

23rd March 2010, 08:43

It's New Zealands good old too hard basket again... Having said that though it's the same in every country... If the dipshits at the top can't be arsed spending the time and money required to bring SOE's up to date and running efficiently, they just find a buyer (at great expense), well, investor, and the investor puts the time and effort into it and turns it into a profit making business... We're quite happy to have govt lead us these days and provided they're looking at Health, or Education, or the current hot potato of the moment, then there's carte blanche to throw as much resource at the issue as they feel is necessary and just say we underestimated the project... We buy into that. If you're constantly blowing budget and timescales at work what happens? You get fired! You're shit at your job... get the fuck out... INSTANTLY...

Too true inagine if we could carry on like that. off opic, I stayed in tooting broadway for a while and took the tube to work evey day, and I did the salute also everyday outside the front of the tube station, the programme was cool, youre avitar makes me laugh and remember, not so much now its upside down however, your trying to confuse people with it arnt ya :-)

mashman

23rd March 2010, 08:55

We are only 4 million and it’s hard to be heard, real hard when they would rather not hear you.

The flip side to that is that you have so few people that you actually need to make aware of a "situation"...

It is off-topic, but this thread is all but dead... If the government want solutions to existing in a global financial economy (including filters etc...)... what ya think about this one Jonhkey?

Pass a law that has all of the wages/profit earned in NZ end up in Kiwibank... How much would that be? If you have $100 million for arguments sake, at an interest rate of 10%, then you're looking at approx $10 mill earned for nothing other than having money... What if it's $100billion WTF!!! All you then need to do is provide services to the people that are earning the money, food, luxuries etc... Not sure what essentials NZ imports... but to be fair it wouldn't matter if you have a HUGE amount of cash to play with... You could then make living in NZ free... the people will still make food, maintain water systems etc... However, you can then bring down the cost of living in NZ to a level where we, as a country, we are better off (maybe not quite free, but a damn site better off)... The govt then pays a dividend to every NZ adult, on a monthly basis, quaterly etc... that then allows Kiwis to do what they want to do... all jobs would essentially be state jobs... healthcare would cost next to nothing... you would have a country of people that are doing things for the good of the country, politicians included... If the govt rort, then have laws in place for execution as it would be considered treason to steal from every person in NZ...

Whilst the above isn't perfect... I'm betting it's be a start

rwh

23rd March 2010, 17:35

It seems to me that political corruption and misappropriation of the people's money is best acheived by openness and transparency - the exact opposite of having a police force that works in secret, suppressing information.

Thanks for backing up my point. Political corruption and misappropriation of funds is best acheived by....."democracy".

Gah. I seem to have said exactly the opposite of what I intended to say.

It seems to me that avoiding political corruption and misappropriation of the people's money is best acheived by openness and transparency - the exact opposite of having a police force that works in secret, suppressing information.

Do you want to respond to that instead? :-)

As for your other points, don't be fooled by historical propaganda that Hitler was the worst of the worst blah blah blah. He is "credited" with 7.5 million jews dead, although he only gave the order to fix the problem, it was others that decided gassing them dead was the answer to fix the problem.
Josef Stalin is credited with an estimated 50+ million dead during his reign of terror, with at least 15 million being jews. He absolutely hated jews. Then there was chairman Mao, he ordered that all of China take a week off work to kill all the sparrows in China. The next year there wasnt enough birds to eat the insects, so all the crops got fucked, and 60+ million chinese died in a single famine. Fathers were killing themselves so the mother could cook them to feed the children.
Then Mao was responsible for another famine...... Well over 100 Million dead.....
Now look at America, and the other "free" countries. If you haven't been outside NZ or Oz then you might as well stick your head up your ass. Because I'll tell you right now, there are homeless and parentless children in other firstworld countries, its no myth.
No form of govt is flawless but ours has a tonne of space for improvement.
A university degree in economics doesn't tell me you are wise enough to earn the honour of representing the people.
Hell I got a Dip and a BSc, I should at least be an MP, right?

I never claimed that Hitler was the worst, and I certainly didn't claim that the USA was the best. I think I claimed that the NAZIs, and the others you mentioned, were 'nasty governments', and questioned (or attempted to question) your apparent claim that secret police forces made them less bad than they would otherwise have been.

Richard

Brian d marge

24th March 2010, 04:54

Selling SOE's is another matter entirely, it pains me too se that successive governments have simply flogged of publicly owned assets to offshore investors, only to see them turn them into massive profit making entities, that should have been done by the government in the first place. Hell, we have Australian and Asian companies having Kiwi's slaving away in their own country, while the profits go offshore!

What the Hell?

which country owns the debt of NZ
and I completely agree , those profits should remain in NZ ,,, and it will get worse , water , education , transport , all privatised ( not a bad thing ) but owned by ONYX ( sp) or wall-mart

Stephen

rwh

24th March 2010, 07:46

which country owns the debt of NZ
and I completely agree , those profits should remain in NZ ,,, and it will get worse , water , education , transport , all privatised ( not a bad thing ) but owned by ONYX ( sp) or wall-mart

Stephen

It's not just the profits.
Water: it's a natural monopoly - you don't want multiple water mains running up your street. A private company running a monopoly has the chance to charge whatever they like, for their own good, and not that of the community, unless you regulate them severely, and then what's the point? Especially since it's an essential supply.

Education: private education is a means for rich parents to say 'we don't want our kids to associate with the poor ones', to the detriment of the education of both, probably.

Transport is mixed: road and rail networks are a monopoly similar to water; the traffic on them is a bit less of an issue.

Richard