Practice riding not reading.

[FROSTY]

I've noticed a growing trend amongst newer riders on this site.
Grabbing information and advice willy nilly from various publications.
Trouble is theres a tendancy to jump to the complicated stuff and missing out the basic steps along the way.
Its kinda like building a house from the second story window up and randomly building bits.
You need to build on the basic foundation of head knowledge and then go out and apply it.
Only once you have mastered that knowledge in the real world ---RIDING should ya move onto the next stage.
You'll see that principle being applied at the california superbike schools.
You cant move onto level two untill you've mastered level 1

[CRF119]

Well siad! Alot of people probobly do spend more time on here talking shit then they do actualy riding.

[CookMySock]

Nah, I learned a massive amount just filtering information on KB. I don't think its like "building a house from the second story window up and randomly building bits" at all. It is interesting to read ahead beyond our expertise level and include a bit of the complex stuff, and also it's just fun to talk about biking stuff amongst a group of like-minded people. Also, you have no idea "how much people ride."

What would you rather they did?

Steve

[Jonathan]

Practice riding not reading.

Well siad! Alot of people probobly do spend more time on here talking shit then they do actualy riding.

Judging from the state of your spelling you are clearly not guilty of this, heheheh :D

[FROSTY]

In that case you know all about the pie or $1.00 principle then steve?
Just in case you don't remember it. the principle is that your attention is like a $1.00 bill If too much of that $1.00 is being spent on doing something well beyond your skill/experience level that leaves very little money left for the other stuff needed for survival.
A perfect example has to be the discussion about lane positioning on the road.
For a new rider I reccomend staying in the right hand wheel track on the road.
Why? because MOST of the time its the safest place to be
without hesitation I could think of 10 reasons not to and several other options.
Thats great for someone with experience but applying the $1.00 principle will place a novice in danger byt the simple fact they don't know wheres safe.

[tigertim20]

Nah, I learned a massive amount just filtering information on KB. I don't think its like "building a house from the second story window up and randomly building bits" at all. It is interesting to read ahead beyond our expertise level and include a bit of the complex stuff, and also it's just fun to talk about biking stuff amongst a group of like-minded people. Also, you have no idea "how much people ride."

What would you rather they did?

Steve
what frosty is talking is the diversity of answers you may receive on here when you ask a simple question. e.g what do I do when i am being tailgated? answers vary from pull to the left and let the car past, to 'open the throtle and get ahead. now either COULD be a great solution, but it depends on the rider, the bike, the weather, the situation. Frosty (I think, correct me if I am wrong here) is concerned with people receiving black and white answers, coming to the conclusion that there is only one right and one wrong answer, which can be dangerous. Frosty gave the example of riding in the right lane being USUALLY the safest option, but states he can provide many reasons not to also. and the example I just gave of tailgating. you cannot always respond exatly the same way, because everytime a similar occurance occurs, there will be different details in play. reacting the same way as last time might get you killed, when last time it was a wise move.

as for advanced riding techniques, break it down!! advanced riding techniques can often be broken down into being based off a number of more basic techniques. say you are a newbie, and you want to practice stopping from 100km/hour. if you try to emergency stop the first time, you are probably going to endo the bike, or drop it. of course you practice stopping NORMALLY from 40km first, then 50, 80, 100. THEN you practice emergency stopping. Frosty is talking about developing a basic skil properly first, before using that basic skill to aid you in the learning of a greater or more difficult skill.

There are plenty of people around that can TELL you how to wheelie. or do a stoppie. hell I can TELL you how to do a stoppie, but fucked if I can actually DO one myself. its about book smart vs street smart. the difference between knowing the theory, and actuallly being able to apply it correctly and safely.

[pc220]

Crawl, Walk, Run. You need to get each stage right before moving to the next. (im still crawling). Very timely thread FROSTY.:niceone:

[pzkpfw]

I think I know what Frosty is on about.

I once noticed I was kind of "awkward" on slow speed tight turns, like little roundabouts in residential areas.

I realised I'd read about (and practiced) counter-steering so much I was sort of trying to counter-steer everything. So in these tight slow speed turns I was fighting the bike instead of letting it do it's natural thing.

Managed to fix the issue with more actual riding.

(Probably makes me sound like an un-co dork, but anyway...)

[Malcolm]

Crawl, Walk, Run. You need to get each stage right before moving to the next. (im still crawling). Very timely thread FROSTY.:niceone:

I was walking before I learned to crawl...?

[pc220]

There is always a gifted exception to the theory.

[CookMySock]

Give people some credit though. You talk about them like you are here to save them, where the reality is more like they have a brain and can read peoples' opinions and sort and categorise suggestions for themselves. Cap-fits-wear? YMMV? Whatever spanks your monkey?

Perhaps you would rather that opinions were sanctioned, sanitised, and approved? Perhaps by you?

Steve

[CRF119]

Judging from the state of your spelling you are clearly not guilty of this, heheheh

Yea i didnt take english at school did a extra PE insted. Has KB got spell cheek? :innocent:

[tigertim20]

Give people some credit though. You talk about them like you are here to save them, where the reality is more like they have a brain and can read peoples' opinions and sort and categorise suggestions for themselves. Cap-fits-wear? YMMV? Whatever spanks your monkey?

Perhaps you would rather that opinions were sanctioned, sanitised, and approved? Perhaps by you?

Steve

you are referring to who? if youre talking to me, I have made no secret of the fact that if I had my way, you would be banned from giving anyone any advice at all, but hey, thats just my opinion. Id wager there'd be alot more support for me on that than you think, but thats OT isnt it.

Hey, you want to read books and 'filter info off KB" thats sweet. I will stick to actually learning skills thoroughly. good day!

[FROSTY]

Give people some credit though. You talk about them like you are here to save them, where the reality is more like they have a brain and can read peoples' opinions and sort and categorise suggestions for themselves. Cap-fits-wear? YMMV? Whatever spanks your monkey?

Perhaps you would rather that opinions were sanctioned, sanitised, and approved? Perhaps by you?

Steve
If you're talking to me then no definitely not. I gave up claim to any god like knowledge a long time ago.
But ya know one thing I have picked up along the way is that if I see something that worries me to speak up.
Maybee all reading this are riding gods that defy what I've seen over the years but then again maybee one person reads it and goes --Hey thats me I do that

Wouldn't I feel like a right A#$#$# if I diddn't at least try and someone crashed ?

[avgas]

Personally I do not understand why people read about riding in the first place.
If your having to read about it - your doing it wrong.

[sinfull]

Steve you have to be the perfect example of what Frosty is talking about, i have seen you post on many threads where i have thought jesus, if a learner tried that they could very easily get into trouble ! You might have noticed on several occasions, somebody has told learners not to take heed of what you advised them on !

You sig has got to be the most dangerous on Kb !
Your username however, fits !

[CookMySock]

you are referring to who? if youre talking to me, I have made no secret of the fact that if I had my way, you would be banned from giving anyone any advice at all, but hey, thats just my opinion. Id wager there'd be alot more support for me on that than you think, but thats OT isnt it.

Hey, you want to read books and 'filter info off KB" thats sweet. I will stick to actually learning skills thoroughly. good day!That makes you part of the problem, since now there may only be one opinion and one truth - yours!

If you don't agree with some statement I make, lets hear your sound and reasoned logic? I am not above eating my own words after a proposition is presented that is better supported in logic than mine is presented.

As it stands, that does not happen. Merely a put-down such as yours is posted, and all conventional rational discussion is out the window. Perhaps your opinion should be taken as read and others' rejected, simply on the basis of the amount of force accompanying it? I do not think so, and you will discover many others do not either.

KB is an open forum, and people are free to present any and all ideas, feelings, and opinions, and they are not subject to your or any other persons veto. If you are unhappy about this, then do not participate, or better still, contribute a well-formed opinion of your own, and back it up with some well-formed logic.

Insulting people and garnering support against them in social groups simply because you believe something different to them automatically categorises yourself, without any put-down needed by anyone else. "Part of the problem and not part of the solution."

Talk about it like human beings. Use politeness. Challenge my remarks. Take issue with the facts that have been presented. Post a correction. State your opinion. Tell us how you feel. Own your own statements, and eat them where necessary.

edit: and you have a good day as well! :niceone:

Steve

[CookMySock]

Steve ... i have seen you post on many threads where i have thought jesus, if a learner tried that they could very easily get into trouble !Like, where, mate?

Steve

[aprilia_RS250]

I've noticed a growing trend amongst newer riders on this site.
Grabbing information and advice willy nilly from various publications.
Trouble is theres a tendancy to jump to the complicated stuff and missing out the basic steps along the way.
Its kinda like building a house from the second story window up and randomly building bits.
You need to build on the basic foundation of head knowledge and then go out and apply it.
Only once you have mastered that knowledge in the real world ---RIDING should ya move onto the next stage.
You'll see that principle being applied at the california superbike schools.
You cant move onto level two untill you've mastered level 1

Have you got proof of this? Show me some links so I can see what's so bad about it. Because the way I've been learning is just by riding and if there is something I don't like, or don't feel confident, or a tight situation turns up I read up about it "willy nilly" and see what is the best way is to handle it. I find it is much more effective looking up on something rather than wait for it to happen again and you have no idea what to do...

[FROSTY]

Have you got proof of this? Show me some links so I can see what's so bad about it. Because the way I've been learning is just by riding and if there is something I don't like, or don't feel confident, or a tight situation turns up I read up about it "willy nilly" and see what is the best way is to handle it. I find it is much more effective looking up on something rather than wait for it to happen again and you have no idea what to do...
Unfortunately yes ---Have a read back through the "i crashed" threads

[CookMySock]

Have you got proof of this? Show me some links so I can see what's so bad about it. Because the way I've been learning is just by riding and if there is something I don't like, or don't feel confident, or a tight situation turns up I read up about it "willy nilly" and see what is the best way is to handle it. I find it is much more effective looking up on something rather than wait for it to happen again and you have no idea what to do...I think you are doing the right thing.

There is a massive massive range of material for you to look through, and so there should be - this is the internet!

Some people would rather limit what you read, on the basis that you were unable to sort and categorise it yourself, and while it remained not properly sorted and categorised - it was dangerous to use! Perhaps it was better and safer that you read only what they believe? But better and safer for who?

Steve

[CookMySock]

Unfortunately yes ---Have a read back through the "i crashed" threadsIt is not his position to research your material.

It is your opinion - you collect the links.

Steve

[AllanB]

I believe everything I read on KB. And it is all spelt correctly too!

[R-Soul]

In a way I agree and in a way I dont.

For example: If somoene had said to me as ateenager that I should be using counter steering to control the bike, i would probably have researched it (although there was no internet then) or at least asked about it, and could have saved myself two accidents. In this way discussing technique could be a life saver.

Discussions of WHY you hang off a bike on corners (to keep the bike upright, not to get the knee down) and basic issues like this can be very useful.

I like to discuss the physics of riding, and the mechanics of bikes, but that is purely for my own interest. And, in depth technical knowledge will not save you if you are still liable to freeze up in crucial situations, or need to react in an instant based on instinct. Only training and time in the saddle will help there. (Although just knowing that freezing up is a known occurrence could in itself help you unfreeze. Like knowing that adrenaline makes you feel scared, but also makes you react faster can help you make a decision to overcome fear, ignore the "shakes", calm down and use your additional power and reflexes to find a way out of it.)

And only training will ingrain good technique. but it helps to at least have an idea of what technique you are trying to instill before you pick up bad habits? For example I was checking out the UK suprbike school lessons on youtube last night - definitely worth checking out for tips (eg for keeping your bike stable during cornering, cornering breakdown, and so on). At least you know what you should be aiming for.

But I agree that its one thing to know it, and its completely another to do it properly. That only comes by practice.

[CookMySock]

its one thing to know it, and its completely another to do it properly. That only comes by practice.If this was the original posters' point, then I agree completely.

Case in point - countersteering ; you can understand it and discuss it until the sky turns black, but do you believe it at crunch-time? If not, then it's all talk on the cereal box.

Steve

[avgas]

Perhaps I am wrong. Everyone else in the world can't learn just by trying for themselves. They have to read how others do it first.
Therefore I am sorry.....really really sorry.

[FROSTY]

But I agree that its one thing to know it, and its completely another to do it properly. That only comes by practice.

And there good sir is it in a nutshell --THANK YOU
I'd like to rephrase that to my origonal point Its one thing the know it in your head sitting behind a computer Its a whole other thing to KNOW it with your body on a bike in the situation.

[CookMySock]

Its one thing the know it in your head sitting behind a computer Its a whole other thing to KNOW it with your body on a bike in the situation.Yes, but by what magic do they collect it in the first place?

Steve

[avgas]

Yes, but by what magic do they collect it in the first place?

Steve
The one called "experience".
Its a verb not a noun in this instance.

[CookMySock]

The one called "experience". Its a verb not a noun in this instance.You submit that everyone should collect information about motorcycling (and perhaps other things as well) by their own initial actions from scratch, with no reading material or consultation with others?

We would still be in the dark ages with that level of collaboration, or rather lack of it. Thats absurd.

Steve

[Sentox]

And only training will ingrain good technique. but it helps to at least have an idea of what technique you are trying to instill before you pick up bad habits? ... But I agree that its one thing to know it, and its completely another to do it properly. That only comes by practice.

This is exactly how I feel about it. I'm quite new to riding. Riding, however, is not a new activity. Many, many people before me have refined the art of handling a bike. If someone else wants to reinvent the wheel, that's fine by me. Personally, I don't have enough time in my life to live in a nice little bubble of ignorance.

I've learned a great many things by reading. I also still do a great many things wrong in my riding, but at least with the information available I can identify them and work on progressively eliminating them. Sure beats osmosis or however the hell else it's supposed to happen.

[Ratti]

For what it's worth...
WhenI identify a problem. I like to read possible solutions, ponder and discuss with other people.
Distill the collected opinion/knowledge, then cautiously try it out at an appropriate time.
eg the whole concept of counter steering. hell of a lot of fun to play with. Sort of understand the physics of it, but am starting to feel in my body how stable it makes the bike-under certain circumstances.

Combination of other peoples opinions/knowledge and my own experience. I think it's likely that postors are all referring to the same process.

More riding I say!

[tigertim20]

That makes you part of the problem, since now there may only be one opinion and one truth - yours!
oh goodgodman!! read my post, I state quite clearly, that in many situations there are numerous possible responses to a situation e.g. tail gating, I used YOUR preferred response -open the gas, and mine, pull over, let him past. I followed up by saying that "in the right circumstances' EITHER COULD BE THE RIGHT RESPONSE.
If you don't agree with some statement I make, lets hear your sound and reasoned logic? I am not above eating my own words after a proposition is presented that is better supported in logic than mine is presented.
Ihave done many times, perhaps you have selective memory. further to above, the right response depends on the above circumstances, the logic will change as the circumstances change. I am saying that reading is less helpfull than riding, because riding provides you the opportunity to learn, through experience. one persons experience (of say tailgating) will differ from another persons experience. thus reading another persons way of responding does NOT necessarily provide you with a tool to deal with it. you need to experience it, look at the facts and react wisely.
As it stands, that does not happen. Merely a put-down such as yours is posted, and all conventional rational discussion is out the window. Perhaps your opinion should be taken as read and others' rejected, simply on the basis of the amount of force accompanying it? I do not think so, and you will discover many others do not either.
blah blah blah, get of the high horse man. I didnt 'put you down' I stated an opinion. as one other has already said in this thread, (and MANY others have said in other threads where you have posted) your name on here "Dangerous Bastard" is very apt, and your advice to learner bikers is often the type of advice that is more likely to cause them harm than good.
KB is an open forum, and people are free to present any and all ideas, feelings, and opinions, and they are not subject to your or any other persons veto. If you are unhappy about this, then do not participate, or better still, contribute a well-formed opinion of your own, and back it up with some well-formed logic.
my GOD!!!!! listen to yourself eh? have a read through ALL of your posts, and look at peoples responses. I am quite certain that more people would agree that your advice is often dangerous, than would would agree that you provide sound, safe advice. or, wait, no, thats right, DB is the god, the king, he is the holy grail of all motorcycling knowledge!! bow down to him all!!!
Insulting people and garnering support against them in social groups simply because you believe something different to them automatically categorises yourself, without any put-down needed by anyone else. "Part of the problem and not part of the solution."
crikey, how many times you need to reword the same comment in one post?
Talk about it like human beings. Use politeness. Challenge my remarks. Take issue with the facts that have been presented. Post a correction. State your opinion. Tell us how you feel. Own your own statements, and eat them where necessary.
I have done!!!
edit: and you have a good day as well! :niceone:

Steve

steve if you read a little slower, you will find I have provided reason for my opinions. and yep. they are just that. now simply posted an opinion that differed toy= yours, and YOU are the one posting a big thing about not accepting other peoples opinions. maybe you should try and heed your own advice?
you say you are not above eating your own words, well, you have done that many many times on here. perhaps you should employ the 'think for 5 minutes, speak for one minute' theory, instead of the think for one, talk for five theory. Youll find you learn alot more, and eat much less of your own words.

[R-Soul]

More riding I say!

Hallelujah sister! Now if I could just get out of my office more often...

[Ratti]

yup....I could kidnap you and email your boss to demand a ransom or I will post you back one piece at a time....
then you could go riding while s/he pisses about trying to work out if you are worth spending the money on.

[BMWST?]

Personally I do not understand why people read about riding in the first place.
If your having to read about it - your doing it wrong.
no...people are different.Some like to just get out and try it,other like to know why where how before they try it...

[tigertim20]

This is exactly how I feel about it. I'm quite new to riding. Riding, however, is not a new activity. Many, many people before me have refined the art of handling a bike. If someone else wants to reinvent the wheel, that's fine by me. Personally, I don't have enough time in my life to live in a nice little bubble of ignorance.

I've learned a great many things by reading. I also still do a great many things wrong in my riding, but at least with the information available I can identify them and work on progressively eliminating them. Sure beats osmosis or however the hell else it's supposed to happen.
I am not necessarily saying this is a bad thing, but here is my question. do you have one or two set-in-stone, reliable sources to whom you always go for advice, or do you just 'filter' info. the latter I would say is dangerous, but if you have set, reliable sources, be it a book, an experienced rider or whatever, then that is a great (and probably the best) way to gain answers to the questions that may arise in your mind while riding.

[thealmightytaco]

Can't believe I'm gonna say it, but apart from the ridiculous slaggin part of what he's said, I'm tending towards DB's opinion on this one. I can kind of see what you intended to say frosty but it came out a bit of a sweeping statement.

To quote Bruce Lee, "Practise without theory is inefficient, theory without practise is pointless."

You really need both, and in all it's irony, I would think that to post that learners shouldn't read too much is in itself one of the more dangerous things to tell them.

[Sentox]

I am not necessarily saying this is a bad thing, but here is my question. do you have one or two set-in-stone, reliable sources to whom you always go for advice, or do you just 'filter' info. the latter I would say is dangerous, but if you have set, reliable sources, be it a book, an experienced rider or whatever, then that is a great (and probably the best) way to gain answers to the questions that may arise in your mind while riding.

For the record, "Sport Riding Techniques" (Nick Ienatsch) is my main resource. Obviously I've gathered information from other sources, but I agree that simply harvesting advice willy-nilly is not the brightest approach.

[avgas]

You submit that everyone should collect information about motorcycling (and perhaps other things as well) by their own initial actions from scratch, with no reading material or consultation with others?

We would still be in the dark ages with that level of collaboration, or rather lack of it. Thats absurd.

Steve
Not all the time. But I have found that sometimes you can read a million books or listen to 100's of others ideas.......but until you actually try it, it all doesn't count for shit. Everyone is different, sometimes reading how others do things - doesn't help you own situation.
But prove me wrong, I have just offered you advice..........go an use it.......just to prove me wrong.

[Sentox]

Not all the time. But I have found that sometimes you can read a million books or listen to 100's of others ideas.......but until you actually try it, it all doesn't count for shit. Everyone is different, sometimes reading how others do things - doesn't help you own situation. But prove me wrong

Well, this statement is obviously correct. Few would argue that knowledge without practice is any use in a physical sport. And some people just aren't cut out for "book learning". But to somehow derive that the use of books or other third-party sources to learn means no practice occurs is missing the entire point. The whole purpose is to facilitate more efficient practice.

You could probably learn to play Beethoven's 23rd without such spurious additions as piano tuition or sheet music. For most people, however, a combination of theory and practice is going to save a lot of time.

[Katman]

Pdath fries my brain.

[FROSTY]

To quote Bruce Lee, "Practise without theory is inefficient, theory without practise is pointless."
You really need both, and in all it's irony, I would think that to post that learners shouldn't read too much is in itself one of the more dangerous things to tell them.
I was really making 2 points
1) Its one thing the know it in your head sitting behind a computer Its a whole other thing to KNOW it with your body on a bike in the situation.
2)Bike riding knowledge needs to be built apon step by step. If we use a couple of unrelated examples
The pianist quoted above is hardly going to go into playing Beethoven when he still can't even do chopsticks without looking at his hands.
A Pilot isn't going to expect to be able to land a 747 into LAX when he's still figuring out touch n go's in a cherokee 152

[steve_t]

A Pilot isn't going to expect to be able to land a 747 into LAX when he's still figuring out touch n go's in a cherokee 152

I can promise you that even though this is true, it doesn't stop the touch and go level pilots jumping on forums telling other people how to do the LAX landing cos they read it somewhere :laugh:

[R-Soul]

You really need both, and in all it's irony, I would think that to post that learners shouldn't read too much is in itself one of the more dangerous things to tell them.

Actually the irony lies in the fact that he posted the advice not to listen to advice on a forum.

hehe just having a dig Frosty.

Actually good points have come out:
1) Knowing in theory is nowhere close to doing.
2) Be careful where you get your advice from.

I know that I like to dredge up theory from books in response to questions. I also know that I would have some difficulty putting my own theory into practice, as I have probably not had anwhere close to the experience and practice that others on the site have had.
But does that mean I should not say anything? It is a forum after all, and the idea is to share ideas, and to discuss options.

Whether or not the "truth" gets hidden in the debate - well that is why we have mentors answering questions, and correcting incorrect points of view right?

[avgas]

@Sentox - Your right, I am a fucking motorcycle savant. I should not expect such levels from the rest of you common folk lol.

I suppose you folk are right - you should not have to learn the hard lessons of what not to do.
My question is that if someone tells you how to change you riding, do you actually change?
If so, slow the fuck down and ride safely.
Thankyou

[Oscar]

Not all the time. But I have found that sometimes you can read a million books or listen to 100's of others ideas.......but until you actually try it, it all doesn't count for shit. Everyone is different, sometimes reading how others do things - doesn't help you own situation.
But prove me wrong, I have just offered you advice..........go an use it.......just to prove me wrong.

+1

If you want to learn how to do it, you can read about it, but sooner or later you gotta do it.
For example, I know how to back flip my 950 Adventure in theory - I read it somewhere.

There is a certain amount you can learn about riding by just riding, but at some point you''re either going to have to ask or watch someone else do it. After several decades of racing, falling off and generally abusing dirt bikes, I found myself with a lot of skills that were useful on the road. It is said that "racing improves the breed", however it also improves the rider (and by racing I mean anything from blatting around the back paddock with yer mates to full on competition).

[R-Soul]

If so, slow the fuck down and ride safely.

Ahh crap, so now do I listen to you or dont I? :blink:

[Headbanger]

weird.

People, Feel free to read discussions on any topic that takes your fancy....or not.

[avgas]

Ahh crap, so now do I listen to you or dont I? :blink:
A un-wise person would tell you that to follow someone elses advice is foolish.
A wise one would keep their mouth shut.......

and then there was me. fucking annoying me.

[tigertim20]

For the record, "Sport Riding Techniques" (Nick Ienatsch) is my main resource. Obviously I've gathered information from other sources, but I agree that simply harvesting advice willy-nilly is not the brightest approach.
and that is the point!! a few, reliable, regular resources is a great way, give yourself someone/somewhere to go to with the questions you have. its the 'willy nilly' part in question. getting info off KB is a joke at the best of times between the posers, the bullshit artists, the knowitalls, and the guys just having a laugh with silly replies. a newbie often cant tell the difference between sarcastic humour, and a legitimate response.

I can promise you that even though this is true, it doesn't stop the touch and go level pilots jumping on forums telling other people how to do the LAX landing cos they read it somewhere :laugh:
and thats the exact problem with KB. people getting advice from people who have no idea whther or not the 'advice' they are handing out is dangerous or helpfull. Hence me saying that one should 'in my opinion' secure a couple of reliable resources to draw upon, and stick to them, rather than taing all info wherever they get it.

[thealmightytaco]

I was really making 2 points
1) Its one thing the know it in your head sitting behind a computer Its a whole other thing to KNOW it with your body on a bike in the situation.
2)Bike riding knowledge needs to be built apon step by step. If we use a couple of unrelated examples
The pianist quoted above is hardly going to go into playing Beethoven when he still can't even do chopsticks without looking at his hands.
A Pilot isn't going to expect to be able to land a 747 into LAX when he's still figuring out touch n go's in a cherokee 152

Agreed, but those pilots sit in classrooms for days before they can even get in the Cherokee.

I don't wanna hate on ya though Frosty, your point is a good point but I'm just not sure I agree. I like reading ahead on the theory and then practising it, and you've just gotta trust people to take it slow till they get it down.

[FROSTY]

Agreed, but those pilots sit in classrooms for days before they can even get in the Cherokee.
Do they??? holey cow then things have changed a lot since I got my licence. --And thank you for that perfect example.

First off ya do a bit od a walk around the plane--Hey this is a wing. This is an elevator -this is a rudder.--now lets fly

In the plane and in the air the instructor gives you control --he/she lets you figure out what each control does.then what they do together.
Once you land and feel 10 feet tall convinced you are more of an ace than Douglas Bader you then get to decide if you are going to learn to fly. --sound familia so far??
From there EVERY time you go to sit behind the controls you get a flight briefing. explaining what you are going to practice.
You fly -you practice --maybee you repeat the lesson
Step by step building on the knowledge youve gathered.

[thealmightytaco]

Do they??? holey cow then things have changed a lot since I got my licence.
...................
From there EVERY time you go to sit behind the controls you get a flight briefing. explaining what you are going to practice.
You fly -you practice --maybee you repeat the lesson
Step by step building on the knowledge youve gathered.

I have to admit I don't actually know! But a couple of friends of friends had and I'm sure they said they did.

And a step by step tutored experience is indeed much better, I wont argue with that. BUT, I still think knowledge should free, rather than locked away for only the black belts to read. I think you've just got to trust that the yellow belts have enough common sense to not overshoot their abilities, and hope they understand they will kill themselves if they try the five finger heart exploding technique before learning to catch flies with chopsticks.

You have to let people live, and walk their own path. I believe, personally.

[thealmightytaco]

Do they??? holey cow then things have changed a lot since I got my licence.
...................
From there EVERY time you go to sit behind the controls you get a flight briefing. explaining what you are going to practice.
You fly -you practice --maybee you repeat the lesson
Step by step building on the knowledge youve gathered.

I have to admit I don't actually know! But a couple of friends of friends had and I'm sure they said they did.

And a step by step tutored experience is indeed much better, I wont argue with that. BUT, I still think knowledge should free, rather than locked away for only the black belts to read. I think you've just got to trust that the yellow belts have enough common sense to not overshoot their abilities, and hope they understand they will kill themselves if they try the five finger heart exploding technique before learning to catch flies with chopsticks.

You have to let people live, and walk their own path. I believe, personally.

[R-Soul]

and thats the exact problem with KB. people getting advice from people who have no idea whther or not the 'advice' they are handing out is dangerous or helpfull. Hence me saying that one should 'in my opinion' secure a couple of reliable resources to draw upon, and stick to them, rather than taing all info wherever they get it.


Which is why I try and correlate the advice that I see with the forces applying in a riding situation. If it fits with eth forces, then I give it more weight (but still dont take it as gospel). I dont even take books by the experts as gospel (hell, Keith code said in his first book that he does not believe in couinter steering)

And then there are still instances that are open to interpretation an debate - like whether back braking helps in emergency braking or not. Some say it does, some say it does not in true emergency braking when the back wheel is off teh ground. Some say you should not try and focus on doing two hings- rather focus on one -front brake- and do it properly. Otehrs say that engine braking and changing down should be used in case you need to ride out of the situation and others not for the same reasons as not using back brake.
And all the studies have shown little difference so as to be negligible and within the realms of a bad reflexes. Thats when debate is good. But still not gospel.

[CookMySock]

Which is why I try and correlate the advice that I see with the forces applying in a riding situation. If it fits with eth forces, then I give it more weight (but still dont take it as gospel). I dont even take books by the experts as gospel (hell, Keith code said in his first book that he does not believe in couinter steering).Everyone does this. That is the way of the Internet. There is always some person on some forum trying to fix, qualify, or otherwise improve this flow of opinion so that it becomes more fact-like, at least in appearance, but that is not how the Internet works.


There is no such thing as objectivity. All of us make meanings or interpretations based on our previous understandings. We use our prior constructions of - knowledge, skills, understandings, and most importantly values and beliefs - to comprehend our new experiences or world phenomena. Thus, every understanding is subjective and interpretative. There is no absolute truth. We make our own truths, and as long as they serve our contexts well, they will last. However, in a world full of diverse elements in all political, occupational, societal and cultural settings, our constructions of truths are contested and negotiated constantly in so many different spaces. The era of information technology has accelerated the contests and negotiations. To succeed, we need the skills to live in diversity, to have our diverse constructions of truths coexist. One thing for sure, the whole process is a dynamic in nature. Any party that seeks to stay static and is reluctant to grow, will be bound to being left behind.

What the OP would prefer, is that this did not occur, and that he started a sticky with the authoritive definition contained within, like his "getting a dereg bike on the road" sticky after that topic had already been dealt with in-depth.

The best way for any person to do that, is to start their own website with all their advice on it, and see how many hits it gets, or better still, go into competition with said Mr Code, and write a book and see if he can out-sell him. Until that occurs, they are stuck with being a mere mortal spouting their unqualified opinion on a public forum much like this one.

Hey we would all like to be the authority on things and offer wise all-knowing council to others, but the sad truth is it's just our opinion. Bugger.

Steve

[Smifffy]

Fuck this thread, I'm going for a ride.

[Headbanger]

I've just read a thread about riding, That's my quota sorted.

Now I've got a couple of hours free, I'll go in to the nub area and tell other twats how to ride.

[HenryDorsetCase]

In that case you know all about the pie or $1.00 principle then steve?
Just in case you don't remember it. the principle is that your attention is like a $1.00 bill If too much of that $1.00 is being spent on doing something well beyond your skill/experience level that leaves very little money left for the other stuff needed for survival.
A perfect example has to be the discussion about lane positioning on the road.
For a new rider I reccomend staying in the right hand wheel track on the road.
Why? because MOST of the time its the safest place to be
without hesitation I could think of 10 reasons not to and several other options.
Thats great for someone with experience but applying the $1.00 principle will place a novice in danger byt the simple fact they don't know wheres safe.

thats good and all, but where do you get a pie for $1.00? and what's in it?

[FROSTY]

dunno but Im told in towpoo somewhere you could get a $1.00 icecream

[Ratti]

ASk the PieMiester. If anyone knows then Fatt Max will know

[Smifffy]

Back from my ride (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Tokoroa,+Waikato,+New+Zealand&daddr=waikaukau+rd+to:bryce+rd+to:okahu+lane+to:tu munui+rd+to:corbett+rd+to:ngakuru+to:-38.23009,175.856781&hl=en&geocode=FWjWuP0d3pJ7CinZgYCIsUFsbTGId2GA5MUPtg%3BF YARuP0d9meACimb_vrzRB9sbTFNQVAEO9sD0g%3BFYuTuP0dEO WACinl0AEiyyFsbTFZYkRb-bmEIQ%3BFR8Pu_0d58CCCimRKWlroYRubTHtwlPUnbINSQ%3BF alNuP0dYKOBCilLcA8tHKBubTFmOUL_2qVAcQ%3BFTh4t_0dza CBCikvlRpJm6BubTG6YVGRLv4kEQ%3BFf8_t_0dHnmACin5JPu S5B5sbTFr1cEiGsgMbw%3B&mra=dme&mrcr=6&mrsp=7&sz=11&sll=-38.209905,176.106305&sspn=0.41328,1.056747&ie=UTF8&ll=-38.21013,176.108093&spn=0.826557,2.113495&z=10) now :)

Was fun, a few twisties, a few tractors and other assorted rural obstacles.

[CookMySock]

dunno but Im told in towpoo somewhere you could get a $1.00 icecreamTry McDog.

Steve

[R-Soul]

I think you've just got to trust that the yellow belts have enough common sense to not overshoot their abilities, and hope they understand they will kill themselves if they try the five finger heart exploding technique before learning to catch flies with chopsticks.


Dont be ridiculous, fly catching is much harder than five finger heart exploding technique...

[Kickaha]

thats good and all, but where do you get a pie for $1.00? and what's in it?

The very best pies in Chch are found at the Riccarton market, bit more than $1 though