Corrections officers?

[portokiwi]

Just a question????? are there any corection / Prison officers on this site?
Saw the programme on tv1 at 2130 last night, Thought it was very interesting On gangs and our prisons here in NZ

[SMOKEU]

I saw that show as well. The problem is that the jails here are too empty. Lock the fuckers up for longer.

[rustyrobot]

Lock the fuckers up for longer.

As astute as your analysis is (and confusing when teamed with your 'Fuck The Police' avatar), I just dont see that locking people up for longer helps the situation at all. Prison is essentially crime school, and an institution that de-socialises people. I think that without rehabilitation programmes and the chance to re-integrate, locking people up for longer just takes them further away from society, and societal norms. When they do get released, they are stigmatised, have even less social skills and have spent the last however many years getting crime lessons off of their longer serving cell buddies. Can't say that in 6 words though. :)

[Mully]

When they do get released

There's your problem. Don't let 'em out.

[duckonin]

Rustyrobot, there are those that do not need rehabilitation after coming out, those that do are shit bags anyway and no amount of rehabilitaion is going to help, only age may do that, you would have to read the rap sheets on those persons and most need locking away from society forever.

[SMOKEU]

As astute as your analysis is (and confusing when teamed with your 'Fuck The Police' avatar), I just dont see that locking people up for longer helps the situation at all. Prison is essentially crime school, and an institution that de-socialises people. I think that without rehabilitation programmes and the chance to re-integrate, locking people up for longer just takes them further away from society, and societal norms. When they do get released, they are stigmatised, have even less social skills and have spent the last however many years getting crime lessons off of their longer serving cell buddies. Can't say that in 6 words though. :)

Some people simply can't be or don't want to be rehabilitated. No matter how much conselling they receive, or how much support they get from the justice system, there is a very large group of people who will continue to offend for as long as they can before being locked up again. The cycle simply repeats itself over and over again until the criminal dies. If people don't want to change their behaviour then counselling or rehab isn't going to achieve anything.

[Her_C4]

At the risk of repeating myself incessantly - you cannot rehabilitate someone who has never been habilitated in the first place. Trust me on this. I have seen children as young as 3 years old 'tooled up' and know what to do with them. I have also seen the outcomes of young children who have been forced to take part (don't make me go into detail here) in block rapes. How do you REhabilitate? You don't. Early and appropriate intervention , nature / nurture blah blah blah...

[JimO]

stop paying undesirables to have children, stop paying people to do nothing, stop hitting people with wet bus tickets when hitting them with a wet bus is a better option, can all the treaty bludging and eventually the prison system wont be under the pressure it is currently

[rustyrobot]

I think you make good points against the imaginary boogie-man criminals, but I just don't know how many people who commit violent (for example) crimes fit in this category. I work with people who have been convicted of violent offences against their family members, and those people come from all walks of life. I don't believe it is as easy to pigeon-hole people as you would think. Okay, there are the obvious 'born into a gang family, grew up surrounded by gangs, going to be trouble their whole life' types, but I would suggest they aren't as plentiful, or obvious as the media would lead us to believe.

As far as longer prison sentences (or even the death penalty) it doesn't seem to work in other countries - America has far more violent crime than New Zealand, and all of those ultra-orthodox super-strict religious states in the middle east are the breeding grounds for violent extremists (although the internal murder rates of some are fairly low). Countries with more moderate/compassionate justice systems (Iceland, Denmark), have far lower crime rates. Perhaps this is a case of chicken vs. egg though, and they have more relaxed justice systems BECAUSE of the lower crime rates. Either way. "Lock up the bastards for ever" hardly seems to be a deterrent to the next generation of bastards.


If people don't want to change their behaviour then counselling or rehab isn't going to achieve anything.
I totally agree. I just think that when you look at people who have turned their lives around, it is usually because of a connection with something/someone outside of that crime life that they identify with and cling to. Yet, they have to be able to make this connection in the first place to make the change.

Blah. Not pretending to have any answers. Just suggesting that maybe the answer is a bit deeper than cliches and angry slogans.

[rustyrobot]

Spelling corection officers?

[portokiwi]

GEE Rusty, thank you for that I have changed my spelling.
Seeing how the (bad spelling) Scandinavians have reduced their pers in jail.
Would NZ or Could NZ follow that path?????????
or are our crims that bad....... :blink:

[davereid]

As far as longer prison sentences (or even the death penalty) it doesn't seem to work in other countries - America has far more violent crime than New Zealand.

Thats a common, but completely incorrect assumption. There ARE places in America that have shockingly high crime rates, particularly murder rates. They are virtually all black and hispanic gang controlled ghetos.

Most of the USA manages crime rates we can only wish for.

[CookMySock]

I met one bloke who was a prison officer. He absolutely loved his job. I cannot for the life of me see why.

I'm pretty sure being in prison is actually a horrible experience for many people, who are adamant they aren't going back there again. I've had the luxury of a single-over-nighter, and that was a fucken nuff for me. Screw that.

Steve

[firefighter]

At 90k pa per prisoner, the only solution is my pit of death. No need for prison, you would walk in, past all the blood and corpses, shit your pants, your crime would be heard, I judge whether you will really learn or be a re-offender, then let you go with the stern warning, do'nt let me see you again. If I did without some pretty exceptional circumstances, that's you joining the others.

Obviously, a low security prison for those who truly seem rehabilitative. Others like those pieces of shit you see on 10 7, no fucken chance in the pit!

The only solution. It is folly to believe anything different. It's amazing how well those who work with these scum get brainwashed into feeling sympathy for them. Everyone knows what right and wrong is.

I'm sick of seeing rapists, murders and kiddie fiddlers getting a second chance, after 10 or so years. What the fuck?! You took a life, why the fuck should you be allowed to continue on with yours?

[portokiwi]

Wow shows how good the system is here in NZ......

[vifferman]

One of my workmates was a prison officer for a while. It's interesting talking to him about it, as he is a very smart and astute individual.

[Her_C4]

One of my workmates was a prison officer for a while. It's interesting talking to him about it, as he is a very smart and astute individual.

The vast majority are....:innocent:

[rustyrobot]

Thats a common, but completely incorrect assumption. There ARE places in America that have shockingly high crime rates, particularly murder rates. They are virtually all black and hispanic gang controlled ghetos. Most of the USA manages crime rates we can only wish for.

According to the United Nations, America has a homicide rate 4 times higher than New Zealand - something I am in no way wishing for. This is also true of rape. It is also much higher than Denmark and Iceland.

You are totally correct though in saying that our overall crime rate is high. According to your same source, we have the second highest rate of crime, per captia in the world. That is pretty staggering. I do think though, that at least some of this is because of a higher rate of reporting crime than in other countries, and also because we have more legislation around a wider range of crimes. This crime rate also takes into account our abnormally high suicide rate, which perhaps skews the figures.

Yes, common assault is higher, but murder and rape statistics are notably lower than the USA.

In the United States though, those states with the death penalty have twice the homicide rate of those without, and perhaps this sort of comparison within country is more relevant? I would suggest there is more of a correlation between poverty and crime than potential punishment and crime.

https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~vwang/ps374/Tyree.ppt

[Genestho]

If you're comparing USA crime rate and "root causes" ie: poverty...

"The recession of 2008-09 has undercut one of the most destructive social theories that came out of the 1960s: the idea that the root cause of crime lies in income inequality and social injustice. As the economy started shedding jobs in 2008, criminologists and pundits predicted that crime would shoot up, since poverty, as the "root causes" theory holds, begets criminals. Instead, the opposite happened. Over seven million lost jobs later, crime has plummeted to its lowest level since the early 1960s. The consequences of this drop for how we think about social order are significant. "

"And by the end of 2009, the purported association between economic hardship and crime was in shambles. According to the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports, homicide dropped 10% nationwide in the first six months of 2009; violent crime dropped 4.4% and property crime dropped 6.1%. Car thefts are down nearly 19%. The crime plunge is sharpest in many areas that have been hit the hardest by the housing collapse. Unemployment in California is 12.3%, but homicides in Los Angeles County, the Los Angeles Times reported recently, dropped 25% over the course of 2009. Car thefts there are down nearly 20%."

It would seem America is already debunking the poverty/crime co-relation...http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703580904574638024055735590.html#a rticleTabs%3Darticle

[SixPackBack]

Three strikes and your out [or in], and the war on drugs are responsible for the massive imprisonment rate within the USA.........Both are fatally flawed directives. Not surprisingly we are already seeing the yanks back pedaling on the war on drugs.

[davereid]

According to the United Nations, America has a homicide rate 4 times higher than New Zealand - something I am in no way wishing for. This is also true of rape. It is also much higher than Denmark and Iceland.... I do think though, that at least some of this is because of a higher rate of reporting crime than in other countries, and also because we have more legislation around a wider range of crimes.

Ive used victim figures where possible, rather than crime figures, as it gives a better indicator of whats happening. For example, getting caught with a bottle of wine at the beach adds to crime figures. But there is no victim, except you if the cops tips your wine out.

This also results in an apparent distortion of figures for some crimes.

For example, in a gang-land area you may be burgled 20 times a year. 1 victim, but 20 crimes. So if you have a situation where the number of victims, and number of crimes dont match.

So if you have a high burglary rate, but a low number of victims, this indicates a gang problem, rather than one for the general population to be concerned about.

Additionally, for violent crimes US data looks worse, as US prosecutors tend to prosecute each crime on the same victim separately and ask for a consecutive sentence for each one. So if a woman is beaten, robbed, and raped in one incident , the US data shows that as 3 distinct crimes with 3 penalties. NZ data may show it as one.

US murders. The overall rate for the US is 40 per million, New Zealands is 12 per million, both way too high. US figures for murder include manslaughter.

But many US states have lower murder rates than NZ. Those that do have higher rates, have higher rates in gang areas. Middle class america is much closer to our own murder rates.

Our rape rate is actually much worse than the US based on victim numbers. Thats because if 2 attackers rape a woman twice in one attack, thats one victim, 4 rapes.

IMHO the number of victims is the more revealing figure if you wish to calculate the safety of your family.

[Blackbird]

Our daughter is a psychologist in training in Wellington for Corrections. Must say my black and white views about crime and punishment have become a bit greyer round the edges since hearing her first hand experiences. Still, it's fun to hold strong views on subjects we know eff all about, innit?:shifty:

[Rockbuddy]

Just a question????? are there any corection / Prison officers on this site?
Saw the programme on tv1 at 2130 last night, Thought it was very interesting On gangs and our prisons here in NZ

I know of at least five members on here that are corrections officers.
Missed the programme but sounds interesting wonder if its on "on demand"

[98tls]

Some people simply can't be or don't want to be rehabilitated. No matter how much conselling they receive, or how much support they get from the justice system, there is a very large group of people who will continue to offend for as long as they can before being locked up again. The cycle simply repeats itself over and over again until the criminal dies. If people don't want to change their behaviour then counselling or rehab isn't going to achieve anything.

Strange as it may sound theres plenty inside and mostly longtimers that are no different than most out here but have simply had a suituation arise in there life thats blindsided them and have reacted accordingly.Always found these threads amusing really.By the grace of god and all that shite.

[Subike]

As astute as your analysis is (and confusing when teamed with your 'Fuck The Police' avatar), I just dont see that locking people up for longer helps the situation at all. Prison is essentially crime school, and an institution that de-socialises people. I think that without rehabilitation programmes and the chance to re-integrate, locking people up for longer just takes them further away from society, and societal norms. When they do get released, they are stigmatised, have even less social skills and have spent the last however many years getting crime lessons off of their longer serving cell buddies. Can't say that in 6 words though. :)

Rehibilitation is a cop out, it does not exist
reintergration???
yeah right
Once you have a serious police record forget about getting any decent work
do the crime, do the time, and be down trodden by society the rest of your life
Employers are able to request your police record when you apply for a decent job decent being above basic wage and where some skill or honesty is required. They see you record, no job.
So where dose the reformed person, trying hard to stay clean go?
back to crime bercause he has to make money.
So what has this to do with prison terms? The justice system gives you 3 years for a crime, society gives you life.
yeap I been there, Yeap I have a chip on my sholder...so fuck you society can be my choice, but it is not.
the fight is harder than you may think to go "straght" dont expect many at all to make it.
Prison for many is a safer place than society, thats why they go back.
Not just because it is an easy life style, but also because fighting societies predudeses is a fucking hard battel, that most will never win.
Prison is a safe enviroment from those who never stop extracting their pound of flesh. the common lawabiding kiwi!

[Ender EnZed]

Just suggesting that maybe the answer is a bit deeper than cliches and angry slogans.

Next you'll be suggesting people actually read what they've typed before posting it instead of just beating their face against the keyboard for a while.:brick:

[SMOKEU]

Rehibilitation is a cop out, it does not exist
reintergration???
yeah right
Once you have a serious police record forget about getting any decent work
do the crime, do the time, and be down trodden by society the rest of your life
Employers are able to request your police record when you apply for a decent job decent being above basic wage and where some skill or honesty is required. They see you record, no job.
So where dose the reformed person, trying hard to stay clean go?
back to crime bercause he has to make money.
So what has this to do with prison terms? The justice system gives you 3 years for a crime, society gives you life.
yeap I been there, Yeap I have a chip on my sholder...so fuck you society can be my choice, but it is not.
the fight is harder than you may think to go "straght" dont expect many at all to make it.
Prison for many is a safer place than society, thats why they go back.
Not just because it is an easy life style, but also because fighting societies predudeses is a fucking hard battel, that most will never win.
Prison is a safe enviroment from those who never stop extracting their pound of flesh. the common lawabiding kiwi!

A mate of mine went to jail for killing someone and he has a good, fully legit job now.

[98tls]

Rehibilitation is a cop out, it does not exist

Relying on it is a cop out,most are born with a basic sense of right n wrong,easy really you do wrong back you go,do no wrong you carry on free to do whatever you chose within reason.

[peasea]

How many kb'ers actually know people that have done time? (Or perhaps done time themselves.)

I know a few who have done time and I also know someone who is still inside. Of those who have been released I can only think of one who went back. Two close friends that were released are hard-working, good blokes. One of them is now a father to two children and his family is a tight unit. He runs his own, very respectable business. Others have drifted here and there but managed to stay 'clean'.

I could go on, but when I say that only one has gone back to prison it must surely give you a picture of these guys having 'learnt their lesson' and been fully 'rehabilitated' (shades of The Shawshank Redemption) and society has done its job etc etc.

So, percentage-wise (and trying to recall those I know who have done time) I'd say the current system is running at about a 90% success rate, probably not what the Stat's Dept would show though. Still, not bloody bad on the surface.

Mind you, it depends on whether or not those who did time were actually guilty and one of my mates at least has been given the benefit of my own doubt. (Lying cops are not unusual in my world.)

Prison works in mysterious ways (in my observations) and affects different people in different ways. I don't want to go to prison even as a visitor, although I have done so many times and perhaps it is that which has hardened my resolve to never be on the wrong side of the bars. It ain't a fun place, but they do get too many perks in my view. It should be even more unpleasant than it is.

The blokes I know who have been released, those I knew before they were banged up, are now different. I can't quite put my finger on it but they're different. I don't look upon them any differently (not knowingly anyway) but I can assure you; those guys don't want to go back. Some become institutionalised and maybe even thrive on it. In the can they are somebody, in the real world they're nobody.

So, those that are released; are they rehabilitated or are they living in fear of going back? I don't know.

I think that if I were to be in a situation where the choice was jail or 'whatever', I'd be having a long, hard look at 'whatever'. Except that, if you saw a crime undertaken by some big wig criminals and 'whatever' meant torment for you and your family versus a few months/years in stir with a future without hassles......hmmm.

Catch 22.

Then would you come out rehabilitated?

[Genestho]

Just watched the doco (http://tvnz.co.nz/real-crime/s2010-and-punishment-video-3418962), clearly made by Re-thinking Crime and Punishment (http://www.rethinking.org.nz/victims%20introduction.htm), recognised some of the players. Same tired crap that's been trotted out for goodness knows how long now. Seen it before.

Same people that accuse SST for trotting "victims" out in the media, claiming retribution, when it's not about that at all. "victims" have got off their arses, had something to say off their own backs and worked hard to get some changes underway that have clearly panicked the apologists.

Interestingly, Re-thinking C&P talk about victims becoming the crims, so let's rehabilitate, re-integrate - strangely, their project/site is only just now working on a site page, to address this phenomenon!

I'm amazed, that if the theory is, the victim is the crim - the crux of the project, this part could've been adressed well before the policy is questioned

And why would the head of this turn down an invite to meet with victims of violent crime, to hear how they're affected within the system, the same system that this group have had past policy implemented and paid for with tax dollars?

Society has been allowed to excuse itself for its crime. Everyone makes a choice.

EDIT! Definately not disputing some youth programs, and there's not enough rehab available out there, with so many centres closed down - that is something that needs more attention, however rehab only works when help is genuinely wanted.