Passing when group riding - important especially for newbies [Archive]

Metastable

19th March 2010, 06:36

I was just reading another thread and thought I'd post this up, especially for the newbies.... but probably good for everyone to hear.

When you are in a group, the bigger the worse this scenario will become.

If you are all passing a vehicle, the guys who have completed the pass MUST stay on the gas until the entire group has made the pass. Generally speaking you are accelerating when making the pass, therefore lets say the group is 10 riders long. By the time the 5th guy goes to pass, because he has had a much longer acceleration run, when the is level with the vehicle being passed he/she is going much faster than the first rider. If one of the riders in front checks up, then that is a HUGE problem. By the time the 10th guy goes to pass, he is going even faster than the 5th rider. So, stay on the throttle until all riders have passed, before shutting down. Also, it is good practice to move over to the curbside lane position after making the pass, until the guy behind you has safely made the pass. That gives them more room, just in case.

Laxi

19th March 2010, 07:10

and I thought it was the responsability of each rider to make sure there is room for them to complete a pass before they pull out :slap:

yungatart

19th March 2010, 07:21

In your scenario it sounds like 10 riders, 1 group, 1 collective brain.
Surely each individual within the group needs to make their own decisions, not rely on somneone else to do their thinking for them.
I certainly wouldn't pass a vehicle just because "everyone else did"

Metastable

19th March 2010, 07:31

It's about facilitating. Yes you can make sure there is enough room, but if there is enough room and all the sudden one of the guys check's up on the throttle or worse, hits the brakes, there won't be much room for very long. Plus, the group can get strung out pretty far, if you stay on the throttle until the entire group has passed, you make more room at the back of the pack.

I fail to see how this is confusing?

Edit -> Plus one more thing. If you just ride your own ride, you might not be in the best position to avoid a mishap with another rider. If you ride trying to facilitate flow, and concentrating on not only what you are doing, but what others are doing behind you, then there is a better chance to avoid a get together with another rider.

sinfull

19th March 2010, 07:38

and I thought it was the responsability of each rider to make sure there is room for them to complete a pass before they pull out :slap: This is true !

Depends on the group and how well i know them or their style how i ride !

Some i've been on spread out over half a k, others are so tight you can fit a dozen bikes in the space a truck/trailer takes up !
Some groups i wouldn't think of gettin on the gas till i see the rider ahead has done the manouver, but others i ride with i'm on the gas as soon as i hear the lead rider crack open the throttle, these groups generally know the order we ride will be the order we pass and everyone cracks open the throttle when the lead bike goes and in those rides the leader generally has plenty of experience and knows just how much space the group needs to get in a gap and won't crack it on if there aint the space to do so !
There of course are occasions where the group wont all fit and then it becomes rider responsibility not to be an idiot !

Have learnt that if you jump the gun with a group of riders you don't know, you could get left hanging outside the passed vehicle which aint pretty at times

cowboyz

19th March 2010, 07:38

its bad advice because you are relying on someone elses perception on if its safe to pass or not.. rather than your own.

Its just not a good idea.

Pass when YOU have enough room to pass and get back in safely.

Berries

19th March 2010, 07:41

I fail to see how this is confusing?

It’s not confusing, it just sounds dodgy.

What if there is another car ahead and the gap is only big enough for 8 bikes ? What if rider 1 made the move prior to a corner but in plenty of time for him to negotiate it, then rider 10 comes steaming in ? What if rider 3 is sitting on 90 demerits ?

Too many what ifs with this scenario. I would hate to have someone behind me who thinks this way.

Kendog

19th March 2010, 07:44

It's about facilitating. Yes you can make sure there is enough room, but if there is enough room and all the sudden one of the guys check's up on the throttle or worse, hits the brakes, there won't be much room for very long. Plus, the group can get strung out pretty far, if you stay on the throttle until the entire group has passed, you make more room at the back of the pack.

I fail to see how this is confusing?
I kind of see your point, as I have witnessed this happening.

But....

If someone who has passed slows or hits the brakes it should be because they are riding their own ride and making sure they are safe.
I would suggest it is the responsibility of the next rider to do the same thing i.e. ride their own ride, not just pass because the person in front passed.

Also, passing often involves an increase of speed over the speed limit. When you have completed your pass should you really continue to speed, or drop back down to the speed limit?

Metastable

19th March 2010, 08:18

This is interesting, because of all the groups I have led, and people usually asked me to lead.... I have never had a situation where there was a cock-up during a pass. Plus this has never even been an issue when brought up in conversation with other riders... everyone agreed. Plus we're talking from experienced riders to not so experienced.

Let me clarify.... and this might not have come out quite right on the first post, so I can see where some of you guys are coming from. I'm not saying, make sure the WHOLE group gets through in one shot. Hell no. Sometimes there is only room for 4 out of 10 or 3 out of 4 or whatever to make the pass safely. Maybe a corner is approaching or there is another car coming.... yes, the guy making the pass needs to take this into consideration. However, this has nothing to do with the guys that have made the pass. What I'm saying is the guys who have made the pass, should try to make room for the guys behind them, so that when it is safe to make the pass, they can do so.

However, if you are riding at the speed limit and the car is close to the speed limit.... geez... it would take forever if you didn't keep it a bit over the limit for everyone to pass. I think it would be borderline dangerous to tiptoe past a vehicle then shut'er down after making the pass. As a group ride leader, I like to see the lights of my sweeper to make sure everything is OK (last rider - high beams) .... a big group passing at the speed limit would make this hard for the leader.

MSTRS

19th March 2010, 08:21

... the pack.

...

The operative word for your scenario. There are very few (and we know what sort) who ride like this. It is a recipe for disaster.

BiK3RChiK

19th March 2010, 08:22

I think what you are saying, is, if in a group and you are passing, and someone else in the group is passing behind you, don't suddenly back off the throttle and close up their gap. Which is fair enough... but, it is up to each individual within the group to judge whether it is safe to pass or not and whether there will be enough room or not.

Personally, I don't like passing as a 'group'. On the road there are far too many variables that make this kind of passing extremely dangerous at times. The group rides I have been on get stretched out and sometimes individuals within that group end up riding with only 1 other biker or even by themselves and the lead riders pull up at a turn and wait for them to catch up. The only thing about this is, that the lead riders have been waiting for a bit and are probably chomping at the bit to continue on, whereas the TEC's might need a break! I guess this is where good communication comes to the fore....

I think the advice of the OP could potentially be dangerous...

sinfull

19th March 2010, 08:25

The operative word for your scenario. There are very few (and we know what sort) who ride like this. It is a recipe for disaster.

Yeah thats them bwahahahah !~

bogan

19th March 2010, 08:30

I see what you are saying, keeping the speed up after the pass will make it easier for those behind you trying to pass as well, but I disagree that there needs to be a speed differential between first past and last past when passing, just maintain a constant following distance to the rider ahead instead, sounds much safer.

CookMySock

19th March 2010, 08:30

By the time the 5th guy goes to pass, because he has had a much longer acceleration run, when the is level with the vehicle being passed he/she is going much faster than the first rider. [...] By the time the 10th guy goes to pass, he is going even faster than the 5th rider.No, I don't think so mate.

If you are in a group of ten riders, and the group is closing up quickly on a line of traffic to be passed, you simply do nothing. Approach the line of traffic - all bikes holding a constant 15k speed differential, and simply roll past the cars - no throttle movement whatsoever. Inexperienced riders will probably not feel comfortable doing this, and will be going for the gears and the throttle.

If the opportunity to pass closes up, then the rider may choose to go anyway and split into the oncoming traffic if they deem it to be safe (cars often will move over), or they may simply roll off the gas and sit in line until they feel comfortable with taking the pass, at which point just roll on the gas and go.

The momentum thing you describe is really dangerous, and should not be happening at all.

Steve

Metastable

19th March 2010, 08:33

Where did I ever say that anyone should commence the pass before the rider in front has competed? All I'm saying is the guy who has made the pass if there is another rider behind them in a group ride, should facilitate the pass of the guy that is behind. Maybe I'm dense, but I really don't see anything here that is unsafe.

Now you can say that if you don't want a ticket, this is not a good idea, fair enough, but I'll say that I'd rather be safe than worry about getting a ticket, and staying forever in the passing lane is not my idea of safe.... for you or anyone else in the ride.

Steve - if the situation you described happens, of course.... you are already going a fair bit faster than the traffic being passed, there is no need to accelerate and also no need to check the throttle. However if you are approaching someone that is going a bit slower than the group, do you just pass 3 kph faster? That's suicide, IMO... or do you just sit until they decide to turn off somewhere?

bogan

19th March 2010, 08:42

Where did I ever say that anyone should commence the pass before the rider in front has competed? All I'm saying is the guy who has made the pass if there is another rider behind them in a group ride, should facilitate the pass of the guy that is behind. Maybe I'm dense, but I really don't see anything here that is unsafe.

Now you can say that if you don't want a ticket, this is not a good idea, fair enough, but I'll say that I'd rather be safe than worry about getting a ticket, and staying forever in the passing lane is not my idea of safe.... for you or anyone else in the ride.

Steve - if the situation you described happens, of course.... you are already going a fair bit faster than the traffic being passed, there is no need to accelerate and also no need to check the throttle. However if you are approaching someone that is going a bit slower than the group, do you just pass 3 kph faster? That's suicide, IMO... or do you just sit until they decide to turn off somewhere?

I think you have to be quite careful in giving advice to newbies, you didnt mean it to be unsafe but it can be interpreted that way. Im not steve but ill ansewr anyway, as a group you maintain a similar following distance to the rider in front (non staggered formation of course) and accelerate and pass thus minimising any speed differential between bikers, if a rider decide the pass is unsafe they simply slow (dab of brake to let rider behind know) and all riders behind will slow too, virtually eliminating the slingshot effect

CookMySock

19th March 2010, 08:44

the guys who have made the pass, should try to make room for the guys behind them, so that when it is safe to make the pass, they can do so.That happens by default. How did you arrive behind the cars to begin with if you were going slower than them? Did you pass them and slow down?

Sure, after passing, you mustn't throttle off and leave other bikes nowhere to go, but the road is plenty wide, and bikes are plenty narrow.

Either your suggestion is not well thought out, or else you have a fault somewhere in your riding habits that is causing this to happen.

I suggest just GO! and get the hell past the cars and don't dick around with it, and don't linger in front of them, which is probably the same thing you are suggesting. ;)

Steve

R6_kid

19th March 2010, 09:00

It's about facilitating.

Bollocks. It's about thinking for yourself. If there isn't enough room then you shouldn't be thinking about making the pass. Going by your assumption, the best thing to do would be for the lead rider to wait until there is enough room for the whole group to make the pass safely.

In saying that, when I pass a vehicle I move left in the lane after doing so just in case the rider behind me has decided to tag along. Thankfully the people I ride with are capable of thinking for themselves so I don't have to worry about trying to get five bikes past a vehicle when there is only room for one.

CookMySock

19th March 2010, 09:04

Where did I ever say that anyone should commence the pass before the rider in front has competed? All I'm saying is the guy who has made the pass if there is another rider behind them in a group ride, should facilitate the pass of the guy that is behind.No, you should not be facilitating anything for anyone. Pass the car and get outa there pronto. Rider behind you will roll their OWN dice.

staying forever in the passing lane is not my idea of safe.... for you or anyone else in the ride.Here you are thinking like a cager. On a bike, you can ride all day on the centreline and it affects no one. Sure, the fuzz will take a dim view, but at any time during a passing manoevre you may revert to the centreline in complete safety. In fact, I rarely use the opposing lane except where I am forced to. I have many many more options on the centreline, and I feel far more comfortable there.

You don't need to throw great gobs of throttle at passing for it to be safe - that rule only applies to cars and you are not a car - the rules are different.

Heres an exercise for more experienced riders; Select a lane-sharing situation where there is (at least) two lanes travelling in the same direction as you. From the left lane, lights to fullbeam, right indicator on, and move to the dashed line to your right, select a 10-15km/hr speed differential (no faster!) and start moving ahead in the traffic. Take note at this point how you feel! Are you inclined to accellerate out of your "passing manoevre" ? Practice keeping a constant speed differential of 10-15km/hr and letting your feelings subside. When you are comfortable with this, try doing the same on a two way road. Use great care! Keep speed differential constant! Look well ahead! If any problems arise, simply complete the current pass and brake gently and move back in. As soon as you pile loads of speed on you are up shit creek, so don't do it. The point of the exercise is demonstrate to you that there is no need for panic manoevring when you are on the centreline. You are quite safe here - particularly so if the line of cars you are passing (on their right - to your left) are physically unable to pass - unlikely they can or will pull out on you. Completely different story if the cars (that you are passing) have a clear road to pass - take great care on the centreline in those situations.

Curiously, it is possible to feel safer splitting forward into oncoming traffic. Suggest you explore that with great caution though.

if you are approaching someone that is going a bit slower than the group, do you just pass 3 kph faster? That's suicide, IMO... or do you just sit until they decide to turn off somewhere?Agreed. Select an appropriate speed differential. Use your experience.

Steve

BiK3RChiK

19th March 2010, 09:04

As I see it, if a noob reads this and thinks 'oh, that's how they pass' and proceeds with your advice, it's a recipe for disaster!

Pack riding is vastly different to group riding IMO, and even group rides have different styles as noted in an earlier post. Being courteous to other riders in the group is necessary, but your advice could easily be misinterpreted.

Hoon

19th March 2010, 09:21

If you are all passing a vehicle, the guys who have completed the pass MUST stay on the gas until the entire group has made the pass.
Good advice. Unfortunate that some members see this as a good opportunity to nit pick your reasoning and beat their chest at a newer member. The OP provided an example where this is an issue but some seem to have misinterpreted the given scenario as him dictating the doctrine on how groups should overtake vehicles.

In a nutshell, the point being made is:

When overtaking a vehicle on a group ride, be mindful that there may be other riders following behind you so once you merge back into your lane, maintain your current speed and keep left if practical until the following rider(s) have completed their overtaking manoeuvre.

Simple isn't it? The decision of when to overtake or if the 5th rider should exceed the speed limit because the 9th rider is a newbie and you had BK for dinner last night is irrelevant.

Metastable

19th March 2010, 09:33

:D This thread is starting to go in a million different directions. Maybe I did a poor job of explaining the original post and peeps are just assuming a whole bunch of different things.

The whole bit about the guys further back going faster than the ones at the front... CAN HAPPEN. Now if you assume a perfect world scenario then you could just do your own thing move into your own lane and if you don't have enough experience riding in a group you might just go back to your original speed (assuming you sped up).... you could assume the guys behind you might not be piling on more speed than you.... and you might have been in the right and the guys behind you might have been in the wrong... but it is like walking across the street when you have the right of way. Do you just go and walk and trust traffic, or do you look both ways? This IMO is the same thing.... riders behind you MIGHT be piling on more speed, maybe they are not.... but the PRUDENT thing to do (imo) would be to make sure they have enough room to move in safely. Even if you are right and they are wrong... if you get into a crash are you OK just because you weren't wrong?

This whole post wasn't HOW TO AND WHEN TO make the pass, but ONCE YOU MAKE IT.... make sure you don't cause a cluster behind, REGARDLESS of who is right or wrong.

Dunno - I can't explain my thoughts any better than that.... all I can say is that in 10 years of riding and being volunteered to lead by my peers, I have NEVER had a crash in any of my group rides, with the exception of a newbie dumping it on a hairpin because she was going too slow... but it never had to do with two people getting into each other. Yet we talked about passing before each ride..... I guess we're lucky.

edit -> thanks Hoon.... that's what I meant. :)

MSTRS

19th March 2010, 09:44

Describing what to do when 'pack' riding is a whole lot different to explaining how an individual should make an allowance for a following rider. Your firs post wasn't clear.

saxet

19th March 2010, 09:45

No, you should not be facilitating anything for anyone. Pass the car and get outa there pronto. Rider behind you will roll their OWN dice.

Here you are thinking like a cager. On a bike, you can ride all day on the centreline and it affects no one.

Steve

The advice given by OP would be good if you can gaurantee all riders think the same and have the same level of ability... Doubtful from my experience.
Riding on the center line gives you very limited options if you or another vehical needs to take evasive action. Or some one does something unusual (read as stupid)

Most of the ideas given here are damn dangerous in my opinion.
If I'm in small gruop I expect everyone to spread out and ride as individiul riders picking there own passing procedures and allowing other vehicles to pass if they wish.

I avoid large groups like the plague.

CookMySock

19th March 2010, 10:25

The whole bit about the guys further back going faster than the ones at the front... CAN HAPPEN.No, its simple - don't do that. Sit on a constant speed when in groups. Don't dial up big speeds when passing anything - it takes all your options away.

...you could assume the guys behind you might not be piling on more speed than you.... and you might have been in the right and the guys behind you might have been in the wrong... but it is like walking across the street when you have the right of way. Do you just go and walk and trust traffic, or do you look both ways? This IMO is the same thing.... riders behind you MIGHT be piling on more speed, maybe they are not.... but the PRUDENT thing to do (imo) would be to make sure they have enough room to move in safely.You are basically right to begin with, but you spend too much time thinking for everyone else.

It's simple. If it's safe to go, them commit to the passing manoevre and get 30-70 meters clear of the car you just passed. Use an appropriate speed differential - not so little that you linger in a vulnerable area, and not so fast that you dangerously close up spaces in front of you - use your experience here. Keep your eyes up and make decisions well in advance.

Trust other riders. If they prove untrustworthy, either don't ride with that group, or just stay clear of them. If they ride hard up your arse, ask them not to.

This whole post wasn't HOW TO AND WHEN TO make the pass, but ONCE YOU MAKE IT.... make sure you don't cause a cluster behind, REGARDLESS of who is right or wrong.I agree. Do the pass, move ahead, but leave the riders behind you out of your decision making process, unless they cannot be trusted - in which case don't ride with them. You have enough to do on your own.

Steve

Metastable

19th March 2010, 10:41

bogan

19th March 2010, 10:44

So just to throw another wrench into this thread..... and it has nothing to do with the original post.. I got a question.

Scenario, you are on a busy multi lane divided highway on a group ride. Say you want to move from the slow to the middle lane or the middle to the fast lane, but as a group leader you see it will be difficult to get the whole group in because of heavy traffic, so if you split the group it will be difficult to get back together. As the leader, you can't trust the folks in the middle know 100% where they are going. How would your group proceed to make this maneuver in safety? Just curious to hear some answers.

move to the next lane but stay within visual range of the group, they can then move over when it is safe

Metastable

19th March 2010, 10:51

But now you have just nominated a lead rider and that person might not feel comfortable being lead.... now you have a potentially flustered lead.

bogan

19th March 2010, 10:59

But now you have just nominated a lead rider and that person might not feel comfortable being lead.... now you have a potentially flustered lead.

eh, the rider at the front was always lead rider! or you mean the one in the middle, If he/she isnt capable of making his own way through traffic to rejoin the leading group I wouldnt be comfortable on a ride with them to begin with. Your posts seem to indicate you think group riding must remain as a rigidly positioned group throughout the whole ride, the group rides I've been on it been a case of stay together where possible, if not we will join up again before any major turn-offs etc, and always ride as you are comfortable, not pressured to keep up. I've passed slower riders during group rides for that reason.

MSTRS

19th March 2010, 11:05

Unless the ride is planned to exit your multi-lane road real soon, does it really matter if the group is temporarily split? After all - where are they going to go. The following riders should be able to see what the front group is doing. and adjust their lane or catch-up as and when it is suitable.

Maha

19th March 2010, 11:08

Keep group rides to no more than 4-5 and there is never a problem.

cowboyz

19th March 2010, 11:10

So just to throw another wrench into this thread..... and it has nothing to do with the original post.. I got a question.

Scenario, you are on a busy multi lane divided highway on a group ride. Say you want to move from the slow to the middle lane or the middle to the fast lane, but as a group leader you see it will be difficult to get the whole group in because of heavy traffic, so if you split the group it will be difficult to get back together. As the leader, you can't trust the folks in the middle know 100% where they are going. How would your group proceed to make this maneuver in safety? Just curious to hear some answers.

WOW! just wow!

Firstly , regrouping.. Thats what coffee shops were designed for.
Secondly... you head off with half the group not knowing where they are going??? Is this the difference between group riding and pack riding?

We ride in group rides all the time.. I dont think the group has ever actually all pulled up at a stop together.. Its ok really.. I dont need a babysitter when I riding.

Metastable

19th March 2010, 11:13

I meant the middle rider might now be a temporary leader. But on a divided highway you can't wait for people at a turn off like you can on a country road. A group can stay together easily and safely on a highway. Now yes, in the twisties if speeds are different, wait at the next junction etc.... that's easy. There are times on a ride that the group should stay together in case there is a problem (bike not working right, low on gas, need to pee) :D with another rider, on a highway it is too difficult to double back and figure out where someone pulled off or pulled over.

Edit -> Wow!! :D Yes I specifically gave you guys a scenario.... multilane divided highway, not twisty country road..... twisties... very easy to just meet up at the next junction.... tell me how you do that on a highway? Do you guys just wait on the side of the highway waiting to get run over? Now maybe part of the problem with this question is that there aren't a ton of busy highways in your area. Here on a group ride we often have to GET TO the twisties.... we are less fortunate that having twisties in all directions like you guys do. :D Therefore, we might need to take a variety of roads, busy roads to get to the fun twisties with fewer cars. It is hard for a group to know 15-20 turn offs before you get to the twisties including getting on and off various highways. Waiting for people at the side of busy highways is asking for disaster.

But the way to do it is this: You and your sweep and preferably the whole group should understand the signal to have the sweep block when safe and allow for the rest of the guys to move into the faster moving lane. Safe and you keep the group together.

Otherwise if we didn't do this on a road like in the link below, it would be a PIA to get everyone together. Why I put this question up is because you can't just ride with a solo attitude. Sorry... again, maybe we were thinking different things again, but I was pretty specific on that last question.

The 401, my back yard... busiest road in the world. But pretty empty on that picture.
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=43.66291,-79.606303&spn=0.00085,0.002642&t=k&z=19

Usarka

19th March 2010, 11:17

If you're crew don't know which "motorway" exit to take then you've already failed as the leader.

And have a tail end charlie.

bogan

19th March 2010, 11:19

Ixion

19th March 2010, 11:27

I fail to see how this is confusing?

.

Well, it confused me

I see the point on long straight roads, with all bikes being similar.

But add corners and some bikes a lot slower than others ??

sinfull

19th March 2010, 11:32

Maha

19th March 2010, 11:33

WOW! just wow!

Firstly , regrouping.. Thats what coffee shops were designed for.
Secondly... you head off with half the group not knowing where they are going??? Is this the difference between group riding and pack riding?

We ride in group rides all the time.. I dont think the group has ever actually all pulled up at a stop together.. Its ok really.. I dont need a babysitter when I riding.

Bet ya cant find ya way out of Masterton?

cowboyz

19th March 2010, 11:34

ahem.. well.. its complicated!

bogan

19th March 2010, 11:34

One has to wonder if your leading a group of zombies who have no idea of when to piss, when to gas up or where they're going !

well it does say he's in Canada :dodge:

dipshit

19th March 2010, 12:33

I meant the middle rider might now be a temporary leader.

"Leader"..???

For fuck's sake.

Remind me to never go on one of your gay rides.

R-Soul

19th March 2010, 12:37

Here you are thinking like a cager. On a bike, you can ride all day on the centreline and it affects no one. Sure, the fuzz will take a dim view, but at any time during a passing manoevre you may revert to the centreline in complete safety. In fact, I rarely use the opposing lane except where I am forced to. I have many many more options on the centreline, and I feel far more comfortable there.

You don't need to throw great gobs of throttle at passing for it to be safe - that rule only applies to cars and you are not a car - the rules are different.

WHAT!!?? I am biting my tongue at this statement of yours. How many times have you seen a car come around the corner on or very close to the centre line? Or followed one that is moving a bit faster and tends to move towards the middle line (taking teh "racing line")?
This is quite typical of new car drivers too -ones who have little sense of teh begginning and end of their vehicles.

But you are recommending to newbies that its perfectly safe and can ride on it all day? Despite the relatively frequent occurrence of cars on the centre line, and despite the fact that the speed differential between car and bike- about 200km/hr if not more -in that situation equates to instant death, no questions asked?

it doesn't matter how experienced you are, when you are stuck on the centre line, with a car next t you on your left, and a car heading towards you on (or very close to) the centre line - you have left yourself NO options. NADA. You have put yourself in a sitiuation where you are relying solely on the awareness and generosity of the car on your left in pulling over for you (yeah right), or the awareness and reflexes of what may TYPICALLY be a 15 year old learner driver in the car heading towards you at 100km/hr to spot you, and correct their line.

Did you really think this one through?

Onto metastables original question: Forgetting about the car to be passed- When all bikes are going same speed, and one in the line speeds up for a short time (eg to pass a car) then it will get closer to the bike in front. Yes, there must be a gap to speed up into in the first place. But if every rider, from teh first to teh last, keeps speed up a bit after passing, to allow for a gap to move into, then each pass is facilitated and made easier without worrying about the rider in front. After each rider has passed and left a bit of a gap, they slow to normal speed. This means that when the next rider speeds up, they dont get as close to the rider in front.

I see nothing unsafe about it. Thats not to say the following riders should RELYon it. they still should make their own decisions. It would just help the group as a whole if each rider understood how it would help and acted on this.

MSTRS

19th March 2010, 12:40

Did you really think this one through?

The question is...does he ever?

kiwifruit

19th March 2010, 12:50

CookMySock

19th March 2010, 12:58

How many times have you seen a car come around the corner on or very close to the centre line? Or followed one that is moving a bit faster and tends to move towards the middle line (taking teh "racing line")?LOL, you can quite safely pass cars in the opposing lane "all day" too, but you might move back into your own lane if someone came the other day.

You can probably ride at 110km/hr "all day" too, but you might want to slow down for roundabouts.

You can hum along in town at 55km/hr "all day" as well, but you better stop for red lights and stop signs.

Of course I thought it through, you dolt. It's you who isn't thinking.

Steve

Metastable

19th March 2010, 13:18

<img src="http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/0/0c/Double_facepalm.jpg">

:D ya no kidding

I guess I'll just have to tag along on a kiwi ride one day to see how it's suppose to be done. :yes:

R-Soul

19th March 2010, 14:38

LOL, you can quite safely pass cars in the opposing lane "all day" too, but you might move back into your own lane if someone came the other day.

You can probably ride at 110km/hr "all day" too, but you might want to slow down for roundabouts.

You can hum along in town at 55km/hr "all day" as well, but you better stop for red lights and stop signs.

Of course I thought it through, you dolt. It's you who isn't thinking.

Steve

So are you still saying that its safe to pass a car on the centre line with another car coming towards you? Even if you do move back into your lane afterwards?

That leaves you in the same situation as I described below. At the mercy of others. My thinking is fine thanks.

And if you are proposing to only pass when there are no oncoming cars, then you might as well use the outside lane properly.

CookMySock

19th March 2010, 15:48

So are you still saying that its safe to pass a car on the centre line with another car coming towards you? Even if you do move back into your lane afterwards? That leaves you in the same situation as I described below. At the mercy of others. And if you are proposing to only pass when there are no oncoming cars, then you might as well use the outside lane properly.Sorry, I criticised a bit there.

Passing in between two lanes of traffic, takes you about 1.5 meters from the cars. Provided you do not do this with a very high speed differential, you can idle along the centerline and nip in between any car at any time. Obviously, if an oncoming car moves up the centreline, then you withdraw. Same goes for a car that you are following - no room, no go! If you stop and consider, it makes little difference if the two lanes are going your direction, or one is opposing - it is just that the speeds feel different.

Consider also, in heavy traffic on a two-lane, two-way road, the cars are physically unable to pass - it is really unlikely that any car can or will pull out in front of you. This is not the case if there is no opposing traffic, where cars you propose to overtake can and will randomly pull out on you. The biggest danger in this case, are bikers coming the other way who are thinking the same - never execute a sudden swerve onto the centreline.

If you don't feel confident lane sharing in these circumstances, as with all things biking - don't do it.

Steve

sinfull

19th March 2010, 16:16

Sorry, I criticised a bit there.

Passing in between two lanes of traffic, takes you about 1.5 meters from the cars. Provided you do not do this with a very high speed differential, you can idle along the centerline and nip in between any car at any time. Obviously, if an oncoming car moves up the centreline, then you withdraw. Same goes for a car that you are following - no room, no go! If you stop and consider, it makes little difference if the two lanes are going your direction, or one is opposing - it is just that the speeds feel different.

Consider also, in heavy traffic on a two-lane, two-way road, the cars are physically unable to pass - it is really unlikely that any car can or will pull out in front of you. This is not the case if there is no opposing traffic, where cars you propose to overtake can and will randomly pull out on you. The biggest danger in this case, are bikers coming the other way who are thinking the same - never execute a sudden swerve onto the centreline.

If you don't feel confident lane sharing in these circumstances, as with all things biking - don't do it.

Steve
Sorry steve, but once again you come into a thread which is aimed at those not so experienced and tell them it's ok to do shit once they are confident in doing it lol whens that ? 6 months into riding ?
Wide open, knew there was no need for me to depress myself by filtering through all your posts to find those where ppl have said OMG are you serious ?

Sure there will be no overtaking by cars where there is heavy traffic, but what about the driver that loses concentration and drifts out to the centre line or sticks his nose out to look when the next gap is coming, just as you get beside the car your passing at idle ?

And do this with very little speed differential ?? lets hang out there for as long as posible to increase the odds of shit happening while your beside the car !
Jesus man ! Stay out of advice threads is my advice lol

Toaster

19th March 2010, 16:28

When you are in a group, the bigger the worse this scenario will become.

If you are all passing a vehicle, the guys who have completed the pass MUST stay on the gas until the entire group has made the pass. Generally speaking you are accelerating when making the pass, therefore lets say the group is 10 riders long. By the time the 5th guy goes to pass, because he has had a much longer acceleration run, when the is level with the vehicle being passed he/she is going much faster than the first rider. ...

I was thinking about this the other day after a group ride. It's almost like a giant slinky... the front goes ahead and the middle and arse-end have to race along at warp speed to catch up only to end up braking hard in an array of taillights and butthole shrinkage.

scumdog

19th March 2010, 16:53

Well, it confused me

I see the point on long straight roads, with all bikes being similar.

But add corners and some bikes a lot slower than others ??

And chuck in a rider or two from a different group catching up.

Or travelling slower the the 'pack'

Jacko2

19th March 2010, 17:06

CookMySock

19th March 2010, 17:18

Sorry steve, but once again you come into a thread which is aimed at those not so experienced and tell them it's ok to do shit once they are confident in doing it lol whens that ? 6 months into riding ?No mate I didn't. Clearly stated it was for the more experienced rider. Re-read.

Steve

sinfull

19th March 2010, 17:37

No, you should not be facilitating anything for anyone. Pass the car and get outa there pronto. Rider behind you will roll their OWN dice.

Here you are thinking like a cager. On a bike, you can ride all day on the centreline and it affects no one. Sure, the fuzz will take a dim view, but at any time during a passing manoevre you may revert to the centreline in complete safety. In fact, I rarely use the opposing lane except where I am forced to. I have many many more options on the centreline, and I feel far more comfortable there.

You don't need to throw great gobs of throttle at passing for it to be safe - that rule only applies to cars and you are not a car - the rules are different.

Heres an exercise for more experienced riders; Select a lane-sharing situation where there is (at least) two lanes travelling in the same direction as you. From the left lane, lights to fullbeam, right indicator on, and move to the dashed line to your right, select a 10-15km/hr speed differential (no faster!) and start moving ahead in the traffic. Take note at this point how you feel! Are you inclined to accellerate out of your "passing manoevre" ? Practice keeping a constant speed differential of 10-15km/hr and letting your feelings subside. When you are comfortable with this, try doing the same on a two way road. Use great care! Keep speed differential constant! Look well ahead! If any problems arise, simply complete the current pass and brake gently and move back in. As soon as you pile loads of speed on you are up shit creek, so don't do it. The point of the exercise is demonstrate to you that there is no need for panic manoevring when you are on the centreline. You are quite safe here - particularly so if the line of cars you are passing (on their right - to your left) are physically unable to pass - unlikely they can or will pull out on you. Completely different story if the cars (that you are passing) have a clear road to pass - take great care on the centreline in those situations.

Curiously, it is possible to feel safer splitting forward into oncoming traffic. Suggest you explore that with great caution though.

Agreed. Select an appropriate speed differential. Use your experience.

Steve Oh you must mean this one !!!

sinfull

19th March 2010, 17:39

That happens by default. How did you arrive behind the cars to begin with if you were going slower than them? Did you pass them and slow down?

Sure, after passing, you mustn't throttle off and leave other bikes nowhere to go, but the road is plenty wide, and bikes are plenty narrow.

Either your suggestion is not well thought out, or else you have a fault somewhere in your riding habits that is causing this to happen.

I suggest just GO! and get the hell past the cars and don't dick around with it, and don't linger in front of them, which is probably the same thing you are suggesting. ;)
Steve or was it this one ?

CookMySock

19th March 2010, 17:58

PLEASE post-up when you're on the road.
I don't to be coming other way, if you're out there, EVER!So tell me how how might I affect you, if I aren't even in your lane?

edit: btw, I might be going to taumarunui tomorrow, so stay the fuck off that road. :killingme

Steve

Jacko2

19th March 2010, 18:46

So tell me how how might I affect you, if I aren't even in your lane?

edit: btw, I might be going to taumarunui tomorrow, so stay the fuck off that road. :killingme

Steve
Funny Cunt Hah?
Seen your sort before, all talk.

CookMySock

19th March 2010, 20:58

Funny Cunt Hah?
Seen your sort before, all talk.LOL nah you got me all wrong. I'm "know it all cunt". Prove me wrong - I invite you.

How, precisely and exactly, will I interfere with you on the road, while you are in the opposing lane, when I state I don't enter that lane - even while overtaking? Hrm?

Now we will see who is all talk. Put brain in gear before mouth, mate.

Steve

Jacko2

19th March 2010, 21:23

LOL nah you got me all wrong. I'm "know it all cunt". Prove me wrong - I invite you.

How, precisely and exactly, will I interfere with you on the road, while you are in the opposing lane, when I state I don't enter that lane - even while overtaking? Hrm?

Now we will see who is all talk. Put brain in gear before mouth, mate.

Steve

Grow up...

diggyduo

19th March 2010, 21:56

Good advice. Unfortunate that some members see this as a good opportunity to nit pick your reasoning and beat their chest at a newer member. The OP provided an example where this is an issue but some seem to have misinterpreted the given scenario as him dictating the doctrine on how groups should overtake vehicles.

In a nutshell, the point being made is:

When overtaking a vehicle on a group ride, be mindful that there may be other riders following behind you so once you merge back into your lane, maintain your current speed and keep left if practical until the following rider(s) have completed their overtaking manoeuvre.

Simple isn't it? The decision of when to overtake or if the 5th rider should exceed the speed limit because the 9th rider is a newbie and you had BK for dinner last night is irrelevant.

i agree. the originator may have been side tracked by the multitude of responses, but ultimately, this is good advice. Obviously, this is dictated by the road (and how well you know the others), but I think the rider following should be afforded the decency that you wont haul on the anchors once the A pillar is passed if there is 500m of clear road ahead. I think this is the scenario he is getting at.

Ronin

19th March 2010, 22:19

neels

19th March 2010, 22:35

There are far too many words in this thread.

Riders should ride their own ride in the group. Where possible leave room for other riders, but they shouldn't assume anyone will make space for them.

Everyone should know where they are going before they head out for a ride, so they don't have to do stupid shit to stay with the rider in front.

If in doubt don't do it.

Just my 2c

Metastable

20th March 2010, 03:52

In fear of throwing this thread even further into the gutter, let me just to address a small point.

Topic of knowing where the group is going:
Yes the group needs to know where they are going. However, here and I assumed there (and I'm getting to thinking I assumed incorrectly) too, on certain rides it is IMPOSSIBLE for the other riders in the group to know the entire route. Here we often have to ride 1+ hours on a combination of various highways and surface roads to get to a section where it becomes easy to wait up for people. We have about 6 million people within a 45 minute radius... and sorry... explaining the route and having the other riders memorize it precisely would be a very difficult thing to do. Plus there are times when some riders simply don't know a particular area we are riding to. Plus because of our often crap traffic, we have to change route mid ride. You need a group that is together. Doing this in a safe manner is tough. That's just the process we need to do to get to the fun part..... once there, meeting up at the next turn off is easy. There is no need for stupidity or recklessness anywhere along the way.

Anyway, just wanted to try to clarify that bit.

MSTRS

20th March 2010, 07:48

There are far too many words in this thread.

There'd be far fewer, if a certain someone would desist in trying to impress us with his god-like skillz...
The funny thing is, he is in no position to advise on strategies for group riding...who here would ride with him, for him to know what to do?

CookMySock

20th March 2010, 07:59

There'd be far fewer, if a certain someone would desist in trying to impress us with his god-like skillz...
The funny thing is, he is in no position to advise on strategies for group riding...who here would ride with him, for him to know what to do?More like, if thread contributors would stay on topic and dispense with the veiled insults, social ladder climbing, put downs, and general family violence.

What have you added? Well thought-out ideas? Considered opinions? No?

It is easy to shoot your mouth off, or irrationally pick fault and belittle people, but that makes you part of the problem and not part of the solution. If you do that, I'll point it out - sorry if that stings.

Steve

Owl

20th March 2010, 08:11

It's about facilitating.

Perhaps that wasn't clear in your first post, but I got it and agree.

MSTRS

20th March 2010, 08:21

sinfull

20th March 2010, 08:25

PrincessBandit

20th March 2010, 09:05

It's an easy situation to cock up. Even with two riders my husband had to ask me not to throttle off immediately after pulling back in (from a passing lane which was running out). I could see him following me on the pass but failed to take into account that he would need to fit in behind me. Both of us learnt from it.

CookMySock

20th March 2010, 09:14

Steve (Post 65)
Valid criticism is a useful contribution. As are viable alternative suggestions or advice.
Downright dangerous 'advice' (ride down the centreline all day) just illustrates why you are the recipient of so much criticism. It takes a thousand words to counteract and disprove a couple of dozen of yours. Contrary to what seems to be your opinion, most members here do not want to see newbies trying out the shit you spout.I invite valid criticism, even if I don't consider it to be valid. Contribute, discuss, observe, offer your opinion.

The "ride down the centreline all day" comment is much like "travel everywhere at 110km/hr all day". On the face of it, and taken in context, it's perfectly doable, except for those who believe it is not. But it's going to invite the nitpickers to scream the place down, as when taken literally it would be completely infeasible - well in excess of being dangerous, it's just not possible.

The important thing to remember about the internet, is readers DO have a brain, and if the nitpickers think that their derisive comments hold any water with said readers, then hey post their abusive tirade and let it be on record. It isn't my fucking character on display. Bring it on - be a part of the abusive side of KB... whee!

Steve

MSTRS

20th March 2010, 10:26

I invite valid criticism, even if I don't consider it to be valid. Contribute, discuss, observe, offer your opinion.

The "ride down the centreline all day" comment is much like "travel everywhere at 110km/hr all day". On the face of it, and taken in context, it's perfectly doable, except for those who believe it is not. But it's going to invite the nitpickers to scream the place down, as when taken literally it would be completely infeasible - well in excess of being dangerous, it's just not possible.

The important thing to remember about the internet, is readers DO have a brain, and if the nitpickers think that their derisive comments hold any water with said readers, then hey post their abusive tirade and let it be on record. It isn't my fucking character on display. Bring it on - be a part of the abusive side of KB... whee!

Steve

Dealing with you on matters of safe, practical riding strategies is like arguing with an idiot....
A waste of time and energy
Takes no real ability
And the idiot will never know (or accept) that he lost the argument

R-Soul

20th March 2010, 15:12

Passing in between two lanes of traffic, takes you about 1.5 meters from the cars.

Assumption FAIL.

Provided you do not do this with a very high speed differential, you can idle along the centerline and nip in between any car at any time. Obviously, if an oncoming car moves up the centreline, then you withdraw.

What if this oncoming car suddenly appears around a bend? Or are you now going to qualify your advice that it should only happen on straights now?

And even on a straight - where do you propose to withdraw to?And how? By hammering on brakes, hoping like hell you have enough time to pull in, and that there is not a car too close behind travelling in the sme direction as you?

Consider also, in heavy traffic on a two-lane, two-way road, the cars are physically unable to pass - it is really unlikely that any car can or will pull out in front of you.

Thats not to say they wont approach the centre line for a look see, or to turn off, or whatever? all of a sudden your 1.5 m is looking closer to 30 cm with a speed differential of 200km/hr!

This is not the case if there is no opposing traffic, where cars you propose to overtake can and will randomly pull out on you.
And are much more likely to do so if they have looked in their rear view mirrors and NOT seen you in it because you are sitting on the centre line to the side of them...

The biggest danger in this case, are bikers coming the other way who are thinking the same - never execute a sudden swerve onto the centreline. So the biggest danger in this scenario is YOU heading the opposite way...? Makes you think doesn't it?

If you don't feel confident lane sharing in these circumstances, as with all things biking - don't do it.

The fact that a person can feel confident doing an action is no indication of that actions inherent hazardous nature. I am sure quite a few Crusty Demons feel confident popping backwards loops on their bikes five floors up. That doens't make it safe.

And when it is a hazardous action, that teh person feels confident is simply an indication of that persons capabilities, or ignorance. The thing about this situation is that it is not made safer by a better rider.

MSTRS

20th March 2010, 16:14

Makes you think doesn't it?

Who is this 'you' of which you speak?

carbonhed

20th March 2010, 16:34

Some Kiwibiker threads contain such a wealth of fuckwittery that they should in some way be permanently removed from the digital domain, carved onto stone tablets and then launched into space to scare the living shit out of any hostile alien species that may be lurking nearby.

This is definitely one of them.

I'd like to thank the usual suspects and some fresh faces for reminding me once again to pick my riding buddies carefully :thud:

R-Soul

22nd March 2010, 11:49

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So the biggest danger in this scenario is DB heading the opposite way...? Makes you think doesn't it?

OK so this is what I actually meant,...

sinned

22nd March 2010, 17:51

Reminder to me - keep away from pack rides and only ride with well organised small groups of riders I trust.

CookMySock

22nd March 2010, 17:59

Some Kiwibiker threads contain such a wealth of fuckwitteryTake a look at the amount of deliberate misunderstandings above, and you will see plenty of that, especially that "outside of a corner" thing - thats fucking classic, but they will try and paint anything onto anyone that suits them.

I think many people would just like to fight, angrily shoot their mouth off, and put someone else down - same suspects as you suggest. I actually have something interesting and useful to do, without having a stand-up ding-dong with them. :yawn:

Steve

Tank

22nd March 2010, 19:25

Dear Metastable.

Firstly - I see you are new to KB - so welcome. I hope you enjoy it here and gain lots of useful information.

You may have noticed that there is a difference between some of the posters here on what is safe and what is not.

What can I say?? - DangerousBastard has the most International experience on the site (you will be amazed what he can turn into a International incident) - but you have probably worked out that he is named DangerousBastard not because he's a dangerous man to mess with - but more for his advise.

My advise - read, re-read, and think - does what this guy is saying sound like the ramblings of a man man on crystal meth? If it does (and his often does) then do not listen to it. If on the other hand - you think he has a good point - then listen to it, but please remember - its at your own risk.

Good luck and enjoy your time here on KB

~Tank