Speed kills. Or does it?

[slofox]

"Interesting", I thought to meself, "I bet this falls on deaf ears in New Zealand..."

Largely cage related but still relevant to bikers.

From Motor Times, Thursday 18th...(Waikato Times).

"Safety expert for Mercedes says strict speeding laws are not the answer to lowering road tolls.

A leading safety expert says a crackdown on speeding is not the answer to reducing the road toll.

The vice president of safety development for Mercedes-Benz, Ulrich Mellinghoff, says crash avoidance systems, better roads and more roundabouts would do more to cut the road toll than tougher speeding laws.

The approach is in direct contrast to state governments in NSW and Victoria, who have been preaching the "speed kills" mantra as the number one panacea for the road toll.

Mr Mellinghoff says motorists often fell into the trap of thinking they were driving safely because they were doing less than the speed limit.

He says the German road toll had reduced significantly in the past 20 years, despite much higher speeds on the roads.

" In Germany you can drive as fast as you want. I don't think that speed alone is the problem. It's the wrong speed in a special situation. With speed limits you will not stop those situations. If you have fog and drive at 100km/h, which is allowed, you are really in high danger of having an accident. On the other hand, if you drive 250km/h on the German autobahn in clear weather conditions with no traffic, it's not really a risk and no accidents happen in those situations," he says.

His claims are borne out by German road statistics. In 1972, there were 20,000 deaths on West German roads. In 2009, there were 4100, despite 20 million more people on the road (including the old East Germany).

"That was with much worse traffic and significantly more vehicles on the road," says Mellinghoff.

"What we have seen is there are a lot of very different reasons for accidents. Sometimes it is not the high speed, it is the wrong speed. If you limit the speed, the driver often thinks all they have to do is drive the speed limit and they don't have to think," he says.

It was better to put the responsibility for driving at the right speed on the shoulders of the individual driver.

Accident avoidance technology, including pedestrian avoidance systems, also had the potential to drastically reduce the road toll.

When stability control was introduced on all cars in Germany, there was a 30 per cent reduction in accidents where a single car leaves the road.

He says Australia's New Car Assessment Program, which crash tests cars and awards safety ratings, should reward vehicles more for crash avoidance, rather than the protection they offered in a crash.

"They should focus more on these assistance systems. It makes more sense to avoid an accident than to reduce the severity of it," he says.

Mercedes was working on a variety of advanced systems designed to cut the road toll, including infra-red systems that detect pedestrians at the side of the road in the dark and spotlight them to alert the driver.

The company also had brake assistance technology that intervened to provide maximum braking force in an emergency situation.

He says the assistance, which occurs in the last 100 milliseconds before a crash, can reduce impact speeds by 5 to 6km/h.

He says Germany has seen good results from increasing the number of roundabouts, as they reduce the number of severe accidents at intersections, while better separating vehicles from cyclists and pedestrians also helps to keep the toll down.

He believes car to car communication can also play a big role in reducing the toll, with cars able to warn drivers behind them about hazardous road conditions including ice on the road or accidents ahead."

[dogsnbikes]

Speed Kills? Or Does It? No just the sudden stop


Interesting,but I would off thought operator error play's a huge part too,

Guess it wont be long before we are just passengers in the car and the car's drive them self's all because mankind is incapable of taking responsibility

But I do agree better roads would help.... will the German's build our roads ???..............:shutup:

[slofox]

.... will the German's build our roads ???..............:shutup:

...I wish...

[mashman]

Interesting,but I would off thought operator error play's a huge part too


I think that's why he mentions roundabouts... I've felt it myself driving the cage... I only ever wake up when there's something that needs doing... other than that it's just driving in a straight line at the speed limit... what could possibly go wrong... just my take though...

[Swoop]

The vice president of safety development for Mercedes-Benz, Ulrich Mellinghoff, says ... more roundabouts would do more to cut the road toll than tougher speeding laws.

He says Germany has seen good results from increasing the number of roundabouts, as they reduce the number of severe accidents at intersections, while better separating vehicles from cyclists and pedestrians also helps to keep the toll down.
He obviously han't seen the kiwi version of a "roundabout"...
European roundabouts are closer to 50 metres across, instead we get 5 metres diameter if you are lucky.


Our retarded, over qualified, bunch of dickhead road designers and their political masters will still continue to pump out the propaganda though.

[CRF119]

Our problem is the roads we ride and drive on. The goverment pays a company to maintain a section of road before it is started. What should happen is the road is made then reviewed and no payouts given untill final inspection by somebody with a brain.

Most of the time a road is re sealed that was mint but because it is on the list of roads to be done this year it gets done again and 9 times out of 10 they make it worse. Or the end of the year is comming up so they do alot of roads that were mint just to use there left over money so they get more next year. Another huge waste of money and time where they could be making or improving older roads.

The other day i was out for a ride they were re sealing a mint road again but this was in the heat of the day so the tar wasnt even going to set and with cars and trucks going over it it was just being ripped apart. I wasnt happy 3km of wet tar and stones @ 10kmh the rims on my CBR have chips all over them and it took a can of WD40 to remove the tar it was every where even got to the top of my tank.

Can you tell i hate NZ road makers.

[R6_kid]

Interesting,but I would off thought operator error play's a huge part too

That always plays the biggest role. A car is fairly harmless when it's sitting still.

[Maha]

A car is fairly harmless when it's sitting still.

Say that in Bagdad and you'll get laughed at.

[Spearfish]

A drunk, A teen with a death wish, someone dropping a hot coal when smoking, Texting, dialling out, soccer mums, sales reps, apprentices doing a run in the company ute, ma'n'pa complacent, batch(sp)/crib owners racing to start the weekend, those who drive with the wrong emotional state, and all those who think there is nothing left to learn are probably the problem. Untill the those problems are addressed its probably better to keep speed down.

You could probably have no rules at all if there was total accountability.

[p.dath]

I completely agree with the Mercedes man. Interestingly enough, this is also the position of the AA.

The German's have got it right - engineer a roading network that implicitly suggest tot he driver the correct speed. Even been on back roads, with an open road speed limit, and then suddenly found a corner that was much sharper than the rest of the road - aka, a road built to surprise the driver, not to reinforce the speed needed.

[Blackshear]

Go find out what kind of licensing system people have to sit through before they can get a drivers license in Germany.
This is why we have so many crashes.
YEP YOU SCRATCHED THE RIGHT SCRATCHIES - Learners
YEP YOU CAN NAVIGATE A CORNER AND GIVE WAY - Restricted
YEP YOU GAVE WAY PROPERLY AT ALL INTERSECTIONS - Full

Germany - 40 hours written, 40 hours practical
Also note how much sitting a test/paying for one costs, and the repercussions for losing it.

[ukusa]

I agree with Mr Mercedes also. Early 70's here had an atrocious number of deaths. Todays lower road death rates are always being claimed by the cops & their methods (listen to their propaganda when the toll goes up in a year ... they blame the bad driving motorist. If it drops, they give themselves a pat on the back & publicly thank themselves). They NEVER seem to acknowledge the vast improvements in vehicle manufacturing. It's obvious that the current lower road toll rates (despite the fact that car numbers on the roads have risen by hundreds of thousands in the last 40 or so years) are mostly because of improvements to the motor car.

[Jonno.]

A drunk, A teen with a death wish, someone dropping a hot coal when smoking, Texting, dialling out, soccer mums, sales reps, apprentices doing a run in the company ute, ma'n'pa complacent, batch(sp)/crib owners racing to start the weekend, those who drive with the wrong emotional state, and all those who think there is nothing left to learn are probably the problem. Untill the those problems are addressed its probably better to keep speed down.

You could probably have no rules at all if there was total accountability.

All of those example listed could be argued that the constant speed limit suggests to drivers they'll be safe within those limits while one corner can be unsafe doing 25. Now Joe Bloggs goes around that corner "legally" at 100 falls off the cliff and dies.

This is the message consistantly being sent is "speeding kills", and so is the reciprical message "don't go over the speed limit and you'll never die"



His claims are borne out by German road statistics. In 1972, there were 20,000 deaths on West German roads. In 2009, there were 4100, despite 20 million more people on the road (including the old East Germany).

[scumdog]

Until Kiwis learn to drive 100kph is about 20kph too fast for most on the roads.

And our terrain combined with our population size negates autobahn type roads.

[p.dath]

Until Kiwis learn to drive 100kph is about 20kph too fast for most on the roads.

And our terrain combined with our population size negates autobahn type roads.


We don't need an autobahn, we need consistent road engineering.

[Cayman911]

Speeding doesn't kill, Becoming stationary does.

<IMG SRC="http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/object3/274/34/n25056598784_6348.jpg" >

[Fluffy Cat]

Have any of you peeps actually been to Germany?, eh?...
It's not all straight autobahns, a lot of the countryside is like Scotland or NZ. Great alpine roads, yes a lot of the roads are well designed but it's not the roads that make you drink drive, overtake into on coming traffic etc. Nor are they over represented in youth deaths. What sort of moron would allow a child/ 15 year old drive a vehicle that can carry 5 mates.
I agree the Germans are it appears right.
Bugger.

[Toaster]

Say that in Bagdad and you'll get laughed at.

Yep! If you see a "low rider" parked up over there you run like hell!!

[Toaster]

I have been to the German and other higher speed motorways around Europe.

LOVED the long open wider roads, smooth, many lanes, long sweeping bends and separated by concrete and grass median gaps/barriers. Great for relative safety. BUT they did have massive tolls, fog and traffic.... and if a crash happened, all hell breaks loose, especially in fog.

I hit 230 at one point and it felt like 100 less if here. At one stage was going 150 or so and a car flew past so fast the air pressure wave almost sent me off into another lane and really shook.

Oh and they all seemed to have speed limits between 80 or so and 130kmh!

I would point out though that general driver behaviour was far better than here. Polite if anything.... mostly. Flash the headlight and the vehicle ahead almost always pulled over to let you rocket past.

FANTASTIC, but I would HATE to come off/crash at those speeds.... bits of toast everywhere!

[Jonathan]

Hear hear, our roads are crap and ill-maintained; they range from being potholed and uneven with big drifts of loose gravel at the edges
to being so smooth they are like riding on ice when wet. In most sections on our highways traffic going in opposite directions is often squeezed far too close together with no kind of barrier to separate them meaning that if someone stupid inevitably does something stupid it is very difficult, if not impossible, to avoid them.

But then again, even if the money spent on speed awareness and such is diverted into maintaining the roads there is no way that it will be enough to bring our roads up to the standard of Germany and Western Europe. We must face the fact that our roads are not tolled (Germany's aren't either but they are an exception) and our population is minuscule. NZ is approximately 75% of the size of Germany (square kilometres) but has less than 5% of the population size (4M compared to 82M). So, the best we can do is hope that people go slow enough on our crap roads that when they do crash they sometimes don't die too much...

[Jonathan]

FANTASTIC, but I would HATE to come off/crash at those speeds.... bits of toast everywhere!

I very nearly got to experience this when my friend driving our car at 160 along the autobahn fell asleep behind the wheel. Can't blame him though, everyone was asleep in the car.

[Jonathan]

Yargh Argh

[Toaster]

Scary, a few seconds of blankness is a heck of a distance at that speed!

[McJim]

The thing to consider is evidence. I haven't actually had the opportunity to look into this and verify. The other thing to consider is motive. Mercedes Benz, unlike most European car manufacturesrs are still in the business of putting large powerful engines in cars. Most of the cubic centimetres in most Mercedes Benz cars are rendered pretty surplus to requirements by most of the speed limits in their market places (They are the largest supplier of Taxis to the 3rd world) so it;s in the interest of Merc that speed limits are relxed so that their customers are relaxed too.

In short, I smell bias.

[MadDuck]

.... bits of toast everywhere!

Are there any seagulls over there ?

[EJK]

Yay Mercedes. We love you.

<img src="http://www.flashracingonline.com/files/imagecache/thumb_320x240/flashracingonline/thumbs/LL-Time-Race.jpg" />

[Toaster]

Are there any seagulls over there ?

If you mean good looking birds that have a crack at the Toaster, then yeah. Got me in lots of poo poo.

[MaxB]

One problem we are going to have to face if we are going to get a highly trained, safe driving population is that a lot of drivers especially in the lower socio-economic group will not be able to afford the driving lessons, insurance and road user charges they have overseas.

A lot of European countries have jail time for people caught driving outside their licence conditons.

Politicians seem reluctant to make the changes to prove they are really serious about safety. Maybe adopting Euro laws would take too many of our drivers/voters off the road?

[MadDuck]

If you mean good looking birds that have a crack at the Toaster, then yeah. Got me in lots of poo poo.

Hmmm...Oh oh.

[riffer]

I completely agree with the Mercedes man. Interestingly enough, this is also the position of the AA.

The German's have got it right - engineer a roading network that implicitly suggest tot he driver the correct speed. Even been on back roads, with an open road speed limit, and then suddenly found a corner that was much sharper than the rest of the road - aka, a road built to surprise the driver, not to reinforce the speed needed.


Trouble is in this country people would crash, they'd call it a black spot and reduce the speed for the entire road and send our coppers to police the straight sections.

[SMOKEU]

Speed kills. If the vehicle wasn't moving in the first place, then it wouldn't kill anyone.

[kwaka_crasher]

Mr Mellinghoff says motorists often fell into the trap of thinking they were driving safely because they were doing less than the speed limit.

That should be called 'Kiwi syndrome'.

[Urano]

speed limits are the only road rules that i don't respect.
and i'm completely honest saying ONLY.
but here we have a wider problem with speed limits. to keep it short, there are two main aspects: 1- cities administrations earns a part of speed fines. so they are encouraged in putting stupid low limits and speed cameras just to heal starving financial conditions... 2- Public administrations don't have enough money to keep streets in condition. so when there's a hole in tarmac what they do? do they fill the hole? NOPE! they put a "30" sign. so if you are riding a bike and go down a hole that ends near your bay of plenty, it was your fault going too fast. and when after 5 years finally get the hole filled, they obviously forget to remove the 30 sign, so you can never know if the limit is there because there's a risk for you, there's a incoming money for them, or simply someone forgot it there...

in my opinion the road safety has only two solution: environment and training.
i'm a pilot: i have to go under an yearly medical check (under 40, then every 6 months), an yearly proficiency check, a six months emergency check. if i miss one of those, i'm grounded for a month or two, then i repeat the check. if i miss again my license is gone.
and a pilot works on a plane, which is something that is checked every time it gets on the ground, then is checked again every tot hours, and then is completely disassembled at another tot hour to check every piece of it; and he work in a place where everybody knows where the others are, if two are too close receive a call "please, get away from there"; and he works in a place where the weather is checked every 30 minutes, and if the conditions aren't good, well, just stop.

cars and bike: here you get a license with a primary school test, you go out drive 10 minutes and make a park. you've done. you have a 10 year validity license, then, after 10 years someone will ask you "do you see the letter on the wall? with the other eye as well? good..." another 10 years validity. nobody to check if you can make an emergency stop, if you can change lane in the middle of a turn, if you know how an abs works and you don't get scared of the pumping pedal... the cars and the bikes are often badly keeped, with flat tires, broken lamps, oil leakage... the streets? well, get there and you'll see... the weather? well look out of the window: it's good... the others? "yeah officer, it seemed to me a green light. i didn't see the bike coming..."

but putting a signal and a speed camera is WAAAAAY easier...