Going Wide (warning: rant) [Archive]

Ranzer

15th May 2005, 03:21

Hi all,

I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately, and about all the newbie riders out there, and all the ZZR 250's in bike shops with "L plate friendly" on them...

I want to share some of the experience I've gathered in my relatively short time riding - hopefully it will be helpfull, or if it's incorrect at least I'll be able to replace it with better advice.

Ok, so here goes...

As a fairly inexperienced rider I tend to have difficulty with judging corners, especially with judging the speed I can enter them at. I learned the hard and fast way (the day after I got my bike) how I instinctively react when I enter a corner too fast - that is, by grabbing the front brake. Ok, I guess it seemed logical to my subconscious mind, "We're going too fast, the brake slows us down, grab it," and as I'm new to riding my subconscious mind hasn't yet registered the existence of the rear brake, so I grab the front break.
Provided you don't lock up the front wheel, this might actually have worked on some bikes. On my bike however (and other bikes I'm sure) it makes the bike want to stand up and go in a straight line, taking you even wider than you already were. After that it's only a split second or so before you hit gravel, pavement, barrier, or in the worst case oncoming traffic. I got really lucky and hit gravel.

My bike (but I'm sure it's not the only one this applies to) is a ZZR 250, and as I pointed out above they're sold as being L plate friendly.
Now don't get me wrong, it's my first bike, and I love it dearly, so it pains me to say anything against it, but... that bike is a deathtrap for newbies. The thing is, it looks (to the untrained eye) like a sports bike. It handles... less like a sports bike. I let my newbie friend (at the time an FZR 250 owner) ride it once, when he got off he said he didn't want to ride it again because it scared the shit out of him, said it felt like his head was floating all over the place and it didn't want to turn corners. Ok, so the FZR had probably spoiled him (that thing was just beautiful to ride), but still. The problem is, my bike just doesn't seem to intuitively lend itself to really leaning into a corner and taking it fairly hard. Ok, this shouldn't be a problem for newbies right, they don't corner hard anyway. Well, no, but newbies also don't judge corners very well (not to mention we have so many corners that just tighten up on us anyway), so when they find themselves in a corner that's tighter than they had anticipated if the bike doesn't intuitively lean further in then the next reaction would be to try and slow down, even though the bike probably still had a ton of clearance which just wasn't comfortable to use. And I already discovered what happens with the front break. If you find you have no option but to slow down in a corner, the rear break seems to be a better bet on this bike - there is of course the problem that it causes the back to skid really easily, especially if you're going downhill at all. Even so, I have never scraped the pegs on my bike, and I've only twice scraped my boots, and I don't really hang off my bike either so I'm probably leaning it harder than I need to aswell. Yeah, I know, not scraping my pegs probably just means I'm a really slow rider, but I'm just pointing out that the bike has plenty of clearance if you convince it to lean over.

Anyway, I'm losing track of the whole reason I started this thread.
The thing is I'm really worried about newbie riders, especially those that get a bike that behaves like mine. I've personally gone wide into gravel on a corner I could easily have taken if I had leaned into it a little harder, a second guy (on the same bike) I was on a ride with did the exact same thing, and a 3rd guy (yep, same bike) I was following went wide into the oncoming lane right in front of me (and I thank God there was no other traffic around at the time). Coincidence? Entirely possible, but I still think that some bikes just don't behave as intuitively as others.

So please learn from my and other peoples mistakes. Take your bike to a big carpark or a track or something and figure out how it reacts when braking and turning. If you find yourself in a corner that's tightening up more than you expected try to avoid the front brake and just force your bike down further, it will almost certainly have enough clearance. If you *have* to brake in a corner try to use the rear brake - but be very careful as it can cause the rear to skid easily.

Best of all follow this great quote (and damn, I can't remember who the quote is from) - "Better to enter a corner slow and exit it fast, than to enter it fast and not exit it at all."

Well, this has turned into way more of a rant than I was expecting, hopefully I haven't got too much of it horribly wrong. Guess I'll wait and see what suggestions/improvements are made. :)

Stay safe.

FROSTY

15th May 2005, 07:54

If you *have* to brake in a corner try to use the rear brake - but be very careful as it can cause the rear to skid easily.

NOOOOOOO--
Here is a perfect example of well meant but ill informed advice
Where is the advanced rider training to catch guys like this???
Ok For a start dude -ANY motorcycle is a pair of gyroscopes joined together by the frame. Gyroscopes want to stand up -thats what they do
doesnt matter if you're name happens to be Rossi or joe blogs --the same rule applies.
Using the back brake is the wrong thing to do -
Ok So who wants to tell mr Ranzor what he should do ??

GSVR

15th May 2005, 09:00

http://www.ketchum.org/toohot.shtml

Here's an old link I found a while back that has some good tips in it.

pritch

15th May 2005, 09:03

First, I think you are going to have to slow down so that you can stay upright long enough to learn how to judge corner speed.

Your question /rant raises a lot of issues.

There is what the UK Police call the "Limit Point" which is perhaps referred to hereabout as the vanishing point. A bit difficult to explain without a picture, but if the point where the two edges of the road appear to meet is coming closer you should be slowing down, as the point moves away you can accelerate.

You didn't mention countersteering, are you aware of that?

Trail braking is a useful skill but you shouldn't be doing that routinely on the road. The racers have a thing where they use the back brake and the throttle at the same time to adjust their line in a bend but that's a track technique not relevant to road riding.

As you say, if nothing is scraping you can lean the bike over further, but you need to learn to make these adjustments smoothly. The nearer you get to the limit, the smoother you will need to be.

The old racers used to have a saying "If in doubt gas it". Generally anything you do to slow the bike once into a corner will make the situation worse, from reducing the ground clearance as a minimum to a high side at the extreme end.

Read "Sport Riding Techniques" by Nick Ienatsch. Better to buy it than get it from the library because it can be used as a reference book. You can get it from Amazon if you can't get it anywhere locally.

And make haste slowly...

FROSTY

15th May 2005, 09:04

wohooo--pretty damb good advice gary :devil2:
Note --he talks about --all that practice paying off !!!!!!!!!

FROSTY

15th May 2005, 09:12

dunno if I entirely agree pritch. I think he will find WITH PRACTICE he will be able to brake later in a corner when he really needs to.

speedpro

15th May 2005, 09:47

Finding someone else to ride with wouldn't hurt. It sounds like the current riding mates might not be setting too good an example, probably due to inexperiance or lack of training.

Track time and training have to be high on the agenda.

idea - someone in Wellington should drag this guy to a bucket meeting and lend him a bucket. Best way in the world to learn what to do after going into a corner too hot, and all sorts of other good stuff.

SlashWylde

15th May 2005, 09:59

I hope this dosen't sound too disjointed, it's early Sunday morn after a late night out :D I think there is merit to what Ranzer is saying. In the last week I have been on two KB rides and both times new riders on 250cc sports bikes have come off. One on a corner, one during an over-taking move. It seems to me that some new riders are trying to run before they can walk. They have bought a 250cc sports-style bike which looks the part but they don't give them selves the time to learn the skills to handle the thing smoothly and confidently before heading out on the 'exciting' country roads and 100km/hr+ KB rides. Maybe they also have certain expectations of being able to ride at speed because of the type of bike it is i.e. because it's a sports bike it will handle the corners or accellerate well enough to pass that truck.

On any bike one needs to learn how to lean.
One needs to learn how to judge entry speed to each corner.
One needs to learn that a bike will go in the direction of your gaze.
And hence one needs to learn to look through a corner to where one wants to go , rather than just the patch of ashphalt directly ahead of the front tyre.

The BRONZ "Ride Right Ride Safe" training course is an excellent way to begin to learn these skills from experienced tutors. I can't emphasise enough to new riders how beneficial such a course is.

Go to http://www.bronz.org.nz/events.htm and find out when the next course is. Call Finn or Peggy and get an enrolment form. It only cost $45 (at last count) and the course takes a day.

Also the CBTA course teaches imparts a lot of good information to new riders.

To put this into context, I'd consider myself an intermediate rider. During the first few months of riding I regularly spent a few hours each week practicing figure eights, quick stops, roundabouts etc to build up skills and confidence as well as all the road riding I was doing. Since starting to ride last October I've put over 8000kms on the clock of my bike, half on the open road, half in suburban/city zones. The SH22 ride I went on yesterday was great. I was able to ride fast (for my 250 Virago :msn-wink: ) and corner smoothly, always leaving myself a little 'head room' incase I missjuged a corner or encountered something unexpected. I felt like I had reached a new level of confidence, but I know that I still have a lot to learn about riding and will continue to do so till I'm too old to stay upright on a motorcycle.

Riding a motorcycle is a complicated physical and mental task. It is a very three-dimensional experience physically and not like driving a car where you turn the steering wheel and the car (usually) goes where you point it.

There really isn't enough space here for any of us to even begin to list all the skills and factors that go into riding a bike. But please all you new riders give yourselves time to learn and grow. Don't bite off more than you can chew by trying to attempt long advanced rides. And for heavens sake buy a full set of armoured protective gear: Jacket, pants, gloves, boots minimum. If you spend a few thousand (or a few tens of thousands) of dollars on a bike, spend at least a thousand on preserving your own well being.

Take care out there all.

Ranzer

15th May 2005, 14:42

You didn't mention countersteering, are you aware of that?

Yep, I'm aware of countersteering, but not through any legally required source,
which is another thing that concerns me - when I first started riding the only experience on a motorbike I had (besides riding a friends mini dirt bike when I was in preschool) was from the learner licence practical skills test. Thinking back to it it seems like a bit of a joke - they made us ride in a big oval around some cones, then made us weave through the cones, then repeat while standing on the pegs, all at about 5~15km/h. To cap it off we had to speed up to a whopping 20km/h and then stop within a pretty lenient box. After that I get my nice piece of paper that says I can go and ride a 250cc bike in heavy traffic or twisty country roads at anywhere up to 70km/h. I don't think they even mentioned countersteering (which isn't really surprisingly, since it doesn't really even work at <20km/h). I first learned about countersteering and a bunch of other skills and ideas I now take for granted from a book that the guys at Red Baron were giving away with new bikes when I bought mine. The book was "The Biker's Bible" by Graham Allardice, and while I don't doubt people can find faults with it, it's definitely a starting point for a completely inexperienced rider. Sadly in my case I was a little too keen and got myself into trouble before I'd even read the book.

Anyway back to my point, the standard of preparation for new riders is totally pathetic (unless its changed a lot since I got my learners). When I bought my bike I basically went straight from doing <20km/h in a carpark to doing >50km/h on a busy road not even able to hillstart properly or anything. And of course, being the cocky idiot I am, I thought I would have a go on Scenic Drive shortly after since it was so much fun as a pillion. I wish I could say my case was extreme (and maybe my lack of experience was) but I'm still hearing about people who have been riding for a week or less attempting rides like Scenic Drive and SH22 etc. It just seems to me like it's asking for trouble, and it seems like people are being allowed to learn the hard way when they shouldn't need to. I know there are courses like BRONZ "Ride Right Ride Safe" (which I have done and would also recommend) but they're completely voluntary, and I don't recall even hearing about it until well after I'd started riding. I mean, at least with a learner licence in a car you are required to have a qualified driver in the front passenger seat at all times, so they can keep an eye on things and tell you when you're messing up. Now, I know this isn't possible with a motorbike, but there's gotta be some alternative we can use to ensure new riders aren't as clueless as I was when I started out, and try to reduce the number of riders that wind up learning how not to ride the hard way.

Anyway I'm ranting again, peace.

FROSTY

15th May 2005, 15:26

Well dude maybee by having the open mind you clearly do have you may have a good chance of doing well in the motorbicycling thing.
Yep the rider training sucks -so what are YOU going to do about it??
You are the center of Your universe so why not work through the stuff you know you are doing not so well and practice em till you do em well.
One thing would be --see how hard you can brake before entering a corner.
Find a quiet bit of road -straight -no traffic plenty of runoff if ya stuffup.
mark a point you want to stop by and then change brakeing methods to see which is the most effective.
Try increasing the amount of front brake you use.
Theres 100s of books written about this very subject but personally I think you need to pracice -preferably in a controlled enviroment.

justsomeguy

15th May 2005, 15:28

Good point Ranzer.

That's why I posted that the ride down Scenic drive was not for newbies.

About going wide mate I reckon it's not something to do with our :sleep:R's but us.

Cos Erik rode my bike and was fine and so was MR.

Sutage

15th May 2005, 16:04

While I agree with some points that have been made at the end of the day the learner rider chooses his bike, I had to choose between a GSXR250 which the guy said you could redline in first gear.. or an SR250 which goes like 120k full go. I chose the SR250 because its not as fast, i can learn the basics and then get a fast bike, instead of getting a fast bike straight off

prob gonna get caned for this but, riding a scooter pre-riding a motorbike helped me to an amount i probably cant even imagine. learning how to ride and having no road sense is a lethal combination, i had been riding a scooter so i learnt my road sense on a 50cc engine, not a 250 tuned sportsbike.

Id go as far to suggest that first two months of L plate bike riding you have a scooter, maybe not make it compulsory but seriously consider it

just my 2c

-Richard

Zapf

15th May 2005, 16:24

when I started riding last year I had a few rules as well... like
- slow entry and fast exit
- brake all you want before the corner but once you enter the corner it should be very light gentle front brake (only if you have to) and then on the gas once pass the apex.
- learn to ride smooth and get your groove. Smooth = faster in the end
- look at the road ahead of you and keep your head up. not at the bike ahead.
- AND DO NOT ride on Dunlop GP501 Arrowmax tires if you can.....

if your ZZR don't like tipping in then yes its a learner friendly bike. cause you will be amazed how how little input and effort it is to get like a modern Gixxer to tip in.... it is friendly because you have to purposely give it large input before it'll do something where as with sports bikes very little input might get you into big trouble. (and it also makes the ZZR more relax to ride)

So, if you know that you can't judge corner speed well yet. (Specially on likes of SH22 where it tricks you) you just have to go in slow and then slowly increase your speed as you get into the groove and train you mental focuse.

to get a bike that is more incline on standing up, you can learn to use the foot pegs to shift your weight to assist turn in / drop your sholder towards the inside of the corner / put more weight on the seat towards the inside of the corner / hang off the bike more (towards the inside of the corner) (for the record Aff-man can tell you how far I was hanging off my VTR250, he said I can almost pick the flowers as I ride pass them)

At the bronz course, they taught you that rear brakes should really only be applied once you have applied the front 1st, and that is because the weight will be transfered to the front and if you had the rear at the limit of slipping then your rear will let go.

Re counter steering.... do a search on this site about it. I posted a thread about it when I was learning and was given lots and lots of advice.

Ranzer

15th May 2005, 17:25

Well dude maybee by having the open mind you clearly do have you may have a good chance of doing well in the motorbicycling thing.

That takes care of me, but I'm also worried about all the other new riders that are potentially gonna learn the hard way. As much as people hate stricter/harder testing, I seriously wonder whether it wouldn't be a good idea to raise the bar a bit for learner bike licences, more/better training and testing etc...

About going wide mate I reckon it's not something to do with our :sleep:R's but us.

Cos Erik rode my bike and was fine and so was MR.

Yeah it's entirely possible that it's just us, but even erik agreed that the ZZR seems to want to stand up more than his bike when you use the front brake in a corner.
And I'm not sure whether MR even touched the brakes, least of all in a corner ;-p
But if he did I would be keen to hear what he thought, or if he noticed anything.

... at the end of the day the learner rider chooses his bike, I had to choose between a GSXR250 which the guy said you could redline in first gear.. or an SR250 which goes like 120k full go. I chose the SR250 because its not as fast, i can learn the basics and then get a fast bike, instead of getting a fast bike straight off

I did exactly the same thing, when I got the ZZR the guy said the power delivery was smoother than a lot of other 250s, and that it was a bit slower. I still got myself into trouble though - even if it takes a few more seconds to get up to speed it will still go fast enough to hurt.

prob gonna get caned for this but, riding a scooter pre-riding a motorbike helped me to an amount i probably cant even imagine. learning how to ride and having no road sense is a lethal combination, i had been riding a scooter so i learnt my road sense on a 50cc engine, not a 250 tuned sportsbike.

Id go as far to suggest that first two months of L plate bike riding you have a scooter, maybe not make it compulsory but seriously consider it

I'm not sure I agree with this. I would almost go so far as to suggest (and I'm caning myself for this) that it would be good to get your restricted car licence before you get your learner bike licence. That way you learn your road sense with a qualified driver sitting next to you pointing everything out.
As far as 50cc scooters go, well, if you have a little trouble with self-control I guess it could be good to restrict how fast you can go or accelerate... but on the other hand I think it's actually necessary to have enough power to get out of a dangerous situation in a hurry, the example that springs to mind is when a cage nearly changed lanes right into me. Ok, I had probably stupidly gotten into their blind spot, but I was still thankfull that I was able to accelerate out of there. I was pretty much level with the front door (left side) with a car behind me when they started to pull into my lane, so braking to avoid them seemed rather less appealing. Anyway, I guess it could be argued either way.

pritch

15th May 2005, 17:31

And then there was this:

http://www.rideforever.co.nz/ride_smart/control_cornering.html

FROSTY

15th May 2005, 17:37

Sensei

15th May 2005, 17:48

Not to sure what ya mean by not using the rear brake going into a corner Frosty . The only time I use the front is well before the corner then its all rear brake from there on out even to the point that I can be hard on the gas with the back still trailing alttile . Have riden like this for as long as I'v been riding . I believe most GP / SBK riders do this to .

StoneChucker

15th May 2005, 18:13

One of the reasons I'm so slow, is because I ALWAYS go into corners too slow. I'm guessing that over time, my "slow" entry speed will increase continously until I'm faster/more experienced rider.

Saying this though, I still find myself braking mid corner, using the front brake. I PERSONALLY find that you can use a little front brake, in certain corners depending on the line you enter with. I guess learning how to use the back brake correctly is the way to go, but I'm super paranoid about hitting the back brake hard, and having it lock up.

The Biker Bible, by Graham Allardice which someone mentioned is a superb book, I suggest it to everyone. Goes into detail about counter steering, race lines apposed to road lines (safer) as well as many other pearls of wisdom (Speaking of which, JAS - can I have my copy back pleeeeeease :msn-wink: ))

If you don't ride on the limit ALL the time, when you get into trouble you'll find you have reserves you didn't know you had, in terms of lean angle, braking and what some call divine intervention :msn-wink:

PLEASE - everyone, not just learner/restricted riders but those on their full who are not as experienced yet - Please take your time to learn, don't try to keep up with the faster riders you're riding with. The results as we have seen can be devastating.

*EDIT* I AM coming to Aucks to ride SH22 and Scenic Drive! The anticipation and build up is too much now :ride:

Rod Steel

15th May 2005, 18:26

I havnt read all the posts, but I have no probs like yours on my zzr250. Theres lots of things in my limited experience that ive found can and will effect cornering ability. Maybe its cos i spent 2 years on a YB100 to blast around on before I got my zzr.
But ive found if ur cornering near the speed limit you shouldnt really need to touch the brakes much if at all cos the engine has enough drag in it to slow u down enough to get u into the corner before u power out of it. Im prolly saying stuff u already know, but even the lane u choose when entering a corner will effect how wide u exit. Or when you start to pour on the throttle through the corner etc.
The 2nd best thing I ever did for my handling was check my tyre pressure! it does wonders when ur tyres psi goes from 22 to 32!!!!

anywho...

Cheers
Aaron

Coyote

15th May 2005, 18:39

Slow down to a speed slower than what you think you can do around a corner on the road. Eventually you'll gain more experience and learn to go faster around the bends

Track experience helps too

justsomeguy

15th May 2005, 18:43

*EDIT* I AM coming to Aucks to ride SH22 and Scenic Drive! The anticipation and build up is too much now :ride:

OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!! Somebody said Scenic Drive:love:

WINJA

15th May 2005, 18:46

IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH GRIP TO TOUCH THE BRAKES ENTERING OR MID CORNER YOU HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH TRACTION TO MAKE THE CORNER, CORNERING IS A MIND FUCK SO DONT TOUCH THOSE BRAKES THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE LIKE IF YOUR DICING WITH ANOTHER RIDER YOU CAN TIGHTEN UP THE CORNER WITH THE BACK BRAKE BUT BE CAREFULL THERES NOT MUCH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUCCESS AND FAILURE , YOU SHOULD RIDE DIFFERENT ON THE ROAD AND THE TRACK ON THE ROAD YOU SHOULD SET UP FOR A GOOD EXIT THIS IS CAUSE YOU DONT KNOW WHATS ROUND THAT CORNER, HOPE THIS MAKES SENSE I BEEN RIDING FLAT OUT FOR 20 YEARS BUT I STILL HAVE TROUBLE EXPLAING IT I JUST DO IT.
YOU COULD ALWAYS FOLLOW ME ROUND SCENIC DRIVE

2_SL0

15th May 2005, 18:47

I havent been riding on the road very long, last Sept/October. But I approached
the learning process (which is still going and will for many many many years) very seriously, I did a lot or reading (still do) and a lot of practise. I also had the added benefit of following a good rider and watching the lines he takes and learning from that. I followed and still do follow similar thoughts as both Zapf and Stonechucker.
1. Do all my braking before the corner.
2. Get my line right for the corner.
3. Look thru the corner.
4. Slow in fast out.
Like Stonechucker Im not the fastest man thru the corner, but I do come out the other side.
One of things they dont mention alot from what I have read is really simple and especially applies to a road like 22. If you dont know where the corner goes, SLOW DOWN TILL YOU DO.

WINJA

15th May 2005, 18:47

OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!! Somebody said Scenic Drive:love:
I FUCKEN OWN SCENIC DRIVE

justsomeguy

15th May 2005, 19:13

I FUCKEN OWN SCENIC DRIVE

What's your time??

Titirangi Village roundabout ---- till the end -- the junction where the houses start??

WINJA

15th May 2005, 19:17

What's your time??

Titirangi Village roundabout ---- till the end -- the junction where the houses start??
FAST ENOUGH TO BEAT THE GUY BEHIND ME

justsomeguy

15th May 2005, 19:20

FAST ENOUGH TO BEAT THE GUY BEHIND ME

Serious question mate.

I know a guy who can do it in 15-20 mins. In an 85 MR2 standard 1600cc engine not supercharged.

Amateur rally driver.......been doing it for a couple of decades.

So wanted to know what a fast bike rider does it in -- incomparison.

WINJA

15th May 2005, 19:31

Serious question mate.

I know a guy who can do it in 15-20 mins. In an 85 MR2 standard 1600cc engine not supercharged.

Amateur rally driver.......been doing it for a couple of decades.

So wanted to know what a fast bike rider does it in -- incomparison.
IVE NEVER TIMED MY SELF, I KNOW SOME JAP CARS ARE VERY FAST THRU SOME PARTS , I HAVE RACED A VERY HOT COMMODORE TO PIHA BUT IT WAS NO CONTEST I HAD TO WAIT FOR HIM.
MY MATES GOT A HAKINEN OR MAKINEN(I DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT CARS) EVO7 AND I WOULDNT RACE THAT IN THE RAIN ITS QUICK.
ON ONE OF THOSE STRAIGHTS I HAVE MY BIKE BANGING OFF THE GOVENEOR (WHICH IS SET AT 299KMH) SOMETIMES, ALAS I DONT LIVE IN AUCK ANY MORE SO ILL HAVE TO FIND NEW ROADS.

Sensei

15th May 2005, 19:44

justsomeguy

15th May 2005, 20:40

IVE NEVER TIMED MY SELF, I KNOW SOME JAP CARS ARE VERY FAST THRU SOME PARTS , I HAVE RACED A VERY HOT COMMODORE TO PIHA BUT IT WAS NO CONTEST I HAD TO WAIT FOR HIM.
MY MATES GOT A HAKINEN OR MAKINEN(I DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT CARS) EVO7 AND I WOULDNT RACE THAT IN THE RAIN ITS QUICK.
ON ONE OF THOSE STRAIGHTS I HAVE MY BIKE BANGING OFF THE GOVENEOR (WHICH IS SET AT 299KMH) SOMETIMES, ALAS I DONT LIVE IN AUCK ANY MORE SO ILL HAVE TO FIND NEW ROADS.

His car has a 0-100 time of about 9 seconds (real world) and a top speed of around 150kmph.

The only reason he is fast is cos he can consistently take 45kmph corners at 100+ while maintaining a technical conversation on how best to make your car faster.

I know cos I've been a passenger with him. You can *catch* him at Targa Tauranga next month.

erik

15th May 2005, 20:53

...
The Biker Bible, by Graham Allardice which someone mentioned is a superb book, I suggest it to everyone. ...

I've read The Biker's Bible (can't remember if I read all of it or only some) but in my opinion, Profficient Motorcycling is a better book, more information, better explanations of countersteering and cornering, more entertaining to read etc.
See if you can find it at a library and have a look. :)

StoneChucker

15th May 2005, 21:06

I've read The Biker's Bible (can't remember if I read all of it or only some) but in my opinion, Profficient Motorcycling is a better book, more information, better explanations of countersteering and cornering, more entertaining to read etc.
See if you can find it at a library and have a look. :)
I don't need it, I've perfected motorcycle control and have nothing more to learn :whistle:

Yeah, if I ever set foot in a library, I'll check it out, thanks :niceone:

WINJA

15th May 2005, 21:08

ON ONE OF THOSE STRAIGHTS I HAVE MY BIKE BANGING OFF THE GOVENEOR (WHICH IS SET AT 299KMH)

Haven't you got a TRE Unit yet Winja Would have thought someone of your riding skill wouldn't have a Govened bike ?? So it is true ya aren't that fast :killingme & here I was thinking you could ride :whistle:
I HAD A TRE ON MY K3 BUT TOOK IT OFF, IT MADE THE BIKE HARDER TO RIDE THRU THE TRICKY STUFF AND I THINK THE BIKE IS PUSHING IT ANYWAY TO GET TO A GENUINE 300 I THINK THEY ONLY JUST TOUCH A GENUINE 300 IN STANDARD FORM PROVIDING THEY ARE A FULL POWER MODEL ANY WAY SO WHY FUCK WITH THE FUELING. THE TRE WORKED REAL GOOD ON MY K2.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE TRE DOES AND HOW IT WORKS? I MADE MY OWN.
I ONLY DO 300KMH ONCE OR TWICE A WEEK ANYWAY MUST BE GETTING OLD

zooter

15th May 2005, 21:15

My 2c worth, I'm a pretty good driver and a bit of an old bastard for a beginner biker so I found it VERY frustrating at not being able to push a bike around a corner at 10 10ths when I started. I don't know why but my corner reading skills did not transfer to the lines you take on a bike very well at all.
Now I still don't ride hard out because that speed is too fast to be able to take evasive action if untoward conditions suddenly crop up around the bend. Round these parts there is the ever present danger of a campervan stopped in the middle of the road or some absent minded German or Frog coming at me on my side of the road as he gawps at the scenery.

Biff

15th May 2005, 22:00

IMHO:

If you have to brake mid corner then you entered the corner too fast.

Slowly change down gears before the corner and use the engine braking/speed to slow you down. Avoid having to use the brakes at all. Use the engine speed to control the power delivery. Drop the gears progessivly and slowly. Avoid hitting high revs in the lower gears as you drop your gears. If you slam the gears down you run the risk of locking up the back wheel.

If you need to reduce speed any further then use both front and back brakes, in unison, BEFORE you enter the corner. Use of the brakes when entering corners, for normal road riding, should be considered a last resort. For now.

Too late, it's an OFC (Oh Fuck Corner)

It's too late, you hit a corner far too fast. Oh Fuck - you're heading for:

A. Oncoming traffic.
B. A wall.
C. A small group of children.

Don't Panic (RIP D.Adams). Avoid at all costs shitting your pants. Now is the time to stay in total control and remain calm. Chances are that you could turn the bike even more if you just relax and countersteer. The guys here have already pointed you towards some good links that will help explain about countersteering and other useful tips.

When you hit that corner too fast you're first instinct is to brake, sometimes hard - but doing this could really spoil your families day. I know it's human instinct - but fight it - and countersteer your tits off. You'll be suprised at how much extra lean you can get if you stay relaxed and fixate on where you want to go, not where you don't.

Avoid looking at the car/wall/child, look at that escape route. Target fixation is a nasty thing. If you look at something when riding a bike there is a natural tendancy to steer the bike in that direction.

Bottom line mate - you must slow down. You are riding too fast, beyond your level of experience. Biking is ultimatley a dangerous past time. You must respect the fact that you are on a machine, in the open, travelling at speed and there are lots of hard things out there..

Ranzer

17th May 2005, 18:07

Ranzer something I've noticed about KB -A good idea has the ability to grow if you are prepared to promote it.
"thats me taken care of" --Ok howsabout you run a emergency braking practice session. I'll be happy to lend ya my training cones and show ya how to do it.
I betya $100 that if you say ---hey I need to practice my braking--anyone wanna come along and practice too--Youll get a heap of guys keen as mustard.
I can tell ya about a couple of deserted roads not too far from town where ya could practice this stuff. By deserted I mean really 0 cars
Heres a little hint--have ya seen how frostys race starts have improved 150% ---nuff said??

This sounds like a good idea, but justsomeguy has beaten me to it! :D
Depending on how many people come/want to come it might even be worth making it a regular thing, but will have to figure out what kind of time interval would be good etc... in the meantime :ride:

(Was gonna post this last night, but the site went down)

Mokoro

17th May 2005, 18:20

Don't break and lean into the corner more

slob

17th May 2005, 18:59

Mate, if you think your ZZR250 has a standing-up-under-brakes issue, you should try a TL1000S - the only way to get through a corner (esp the tight ones) on that bugger was to countersteer like crazy!

Actually when I owned a ZZR250 I never really noticed it standing up on the brakes - keeping the tire pressures right helped the handling, so did fitting a higher profile rear tyre (it steepens the steering angle a wee bit).

I don't think anyone's mentioned cornering lines here - but I've found that getting my lines right has been the biggest contributor to helping me corner more confidently and faster. The classic newbie mistake is to apex too early, which makes you run out of road quickly. This problem could be mis-diagnosed as entering the corner too fast (when in fact it's the lines chosen that's the problem...). Might want to get an experienced rider to show you their lines so you get a feel for it.

The other riding technique that was a great help was to learn to control where I was looking (i.e. look - but not focus on - at the corner exit).

Mind you, at the end of the day a lot of this stuff will just dawn upon you as your experience increases.

Thread Hijack section:

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE TRE DOES AND HOW IT WORKS?
I thought Timing Retard Eliminator was supposed to derestrict the engine in the first 2 or 3 gears, not remove the top speed limiter? Or does it do that too?

Sensei

17th May 2005, 19:23

I thought Timing Retard Eliminator was supposed to derestrict the engine in the first 2 or 3 gears, not remove the top speed limiter? Or does it do that too?[/QUOTE]

Yep sure does Just depends which one you buy I have an Ivans Performance TRE Unit . Does both bottom & top

geoffm

17th May 2005, 21:53

Yeah it's entirely possible that it's just us, but even erik agreed that the ZZR seems to want to stand up more than his bike when you use the front brake in a corner.
And I'm not sure whether MR even touched the brakes, least of all in a corner ;-p
But if he did I would be keen to hear what he thought, or if he noticed anything.

Bike setup can make a difference to the tnedency to stand up under brakes. All bikes will do it to an extent, but some are worse than others. The ones with rounded 16" wheels are well known for it. What are the tyres like? A square rear or worn front can do this as well
G

riffer

17th May 2005, 22:37

I wonder if any of us have actually ever had the front end wash out because they countersteered too hard. I never have. But I sure as heck have caused the bike to stand up straight and understeer like hell.

That panic pull the brakes on is a bitch.

I still find myself going for the brake sometimes and I have to actually yell at myself inside the helmet to "push the bar you idiot". Especially on the Rimutakas.

I talk myself through corners when I'm weekend riding. I try and guage the corner speed (easier if its signposted) get as far out to the side (all my braking should be finished by the time I am at the outside of the corner, talk to myself again (not yet, not yet) and then try and get on the throttle at the exact time I push the bar - hard (the RF doesn't really like changing direction in a hurry).

I've found when in doubt - push the bar harder.

As for judging corners - White Trash gave me some good advice - look at the end of the side of the road - if its moving towards the centreline its tightening, away its loosening. Great advice Jimmy - its saved my arse many times.

And as others have said - practice, practice, practice. Start slow.

Pixie

18th May 2005, 00:57

www.superbikeschool.com
This will explain why all motorcycle steering is countersteering.
See the "nobs bike" article.
Applying the rear brake into a corner can make the bike lean over in opposition to the stand up effect of the front brake

Zapf

18th May 2005, 01:31

Gremlin

18th May 2005, 02:55

I have a grand total of 3 hours riding experience. And I'm taking it nice and slow. Only riding when its quite (midday, or early on the weekend). Slowing for corners waaaay early and trying to make my head operate my hands and feet in unison.

I reckon the biggest problem when being a total newbie is the complete lack of "automatic response". Atm, when slowing my head has to think: "roll off throttle, clutch in, gear shift (is it up or down), clutch gently out, throttle gently on". That has to be the biggest danger. I have no intention of riding anywhere (aside from the tip of my peninsula) until that is automatic. Simply too dangerous when something unforseen happens.

Also, I'm only riding on roads I know, and still getting used to the bike. It is surprising how heavy a bike feels when first starting out. Also, when I came upon my first corner on real roads (luckily the road curved to the left, I was going straight and the side road only had an island) I actually did nothing. Brain freeze. Soo many options and I didn't even move the throttle, just steered through it. Just.

Then coming home (slight downhill, into a downhill driveway) I was still trying to think what to do, when the driveway was upon me and I ended up clutching it and coasting down in third gear.

I would say riding around your close neighbourhood in the very quiet hours slowly learning would be the best. And try to have a properly working bike :D I don't have a headlight or proper indicators (no front, solid rear coz of missing front), and the rego is on hold. It makes you more nervous because you know you can't really tell the other cages what you are doing... :killingme

Somebody mentioned not riding on Dunlop Arrowmax GT501s.... Why? John fitted my bike with them so I am simply riding on what it has...

John

18th May 2005, 05:21

Well to drain the thread out some more I will add my experiences to the same bike.

If your ZedZedR is standing up in a corner, you are applying the brakes to hard, FAR to hard - I always 'brushed' the brakes through the corner, because I always had to much lean! ZedZedR's love leaning which is ironic for a mini-tourer when you think about it, remember the most efficient way of braking isn’t jamming them on, progressive breaking is best, if you need to brake in corner consider using engine braking through the corner, I don’t recommend this for newer riders as it can be really really dangerous, but you could always just come into a corner a gear lower than you normally do so that you have engine braking and ability to turn the throttle a bit if need be.

Some things you might want checked out is, Brake Pads, You might have an incredibly soft compound on there and its biting to hard, Suspension, set it up properly for your weight/feel of the bike, This requires a bit of mechanical knowledge!, check your triple clamps and bearings - Its strange how many times you find strange behavior like this causes major problems! in example simple things as rear wheel alignment; after my crash the impact managed to knock my rear out of alignment, I think it was due to semi loose bolt and was knocked out of shape when I landed the stoppie - when riding home my bike scared the shit out of me, mid corner it wasn’t happy going either way, was running hell wide and generally being a little bugger!.
So you always must check your bike over before a ride, even more so the little bikes, there littler/weaker parts are more prone to fall out of shape and cause BIG problems, a bit of food for thought.

I also must say I just jumped on my ZZR as soon as I got my L (fully suited) and blasted all around town, and the bike loved it - but I suppose I had being riding off road for a very long time before hand, I still stand by the ZZR being the '150cc' of the '250cc's' in respect to how friendly they are and how easy to learn on they are, that bike taught me more than I thought possible in the short time I had it, and it shows - I never have any silly moments in my ZX now, I'm pretty sure if I had gotten the ZXR by now I would be still in hospital.

Enjoy the bikes, and don’t be so quick to jump to bike fault sometimes the silliest problems can just be a discrepancy in your riding style, there has being a 'adopt a newbie' system set up (awesome work guys!) maybe you should consider joining and getting some tips on riding style from the wiser member.

Take care, and sorry if this is all shit - I think you all know the story, I think I'm the king of it (shit).

edit: GT501's are great tires I got right on the edge of them more than once! I love them, but I cant get them for my new bike so I will be stuck with GPR70's (darn! :lol:).

SPman

18th May 2005, 06:40

I FUCKEN OWN SCENIC DRIVE

And your fucken welcome to it - poxy slimy traffic infested rathole.

XP@

18th May 2005, 10:45

Looks like there is some really good advice on the technique (and some off topic and inappropriate macho stuff)

But how to put it in to practice?

Yes, some bikes handle well, others like crap. unless there is something seriously wrong with your bike, it will probably cope with a lot more than you are going to throw at it... well unless you are getting good or muck up real bad.

The best advice I have been given is to adopt a set of corners. There dosent need to be too many, about 6 or 7. Make sure they are close to home so you can ride them regularly (every day to and from work is a good start)

You have read up on all the cornering techniques, you have a mental map of the the lines, breaking points, observation points all in your head.

Start slowly make sure you get the line right. if you are happy at a speed then open up a little more.

I use Grays Road (just outside wellington) for my set of corners. when I started (about 12 months ago) taking the 10 min detour i had never scraped anything when cornering. now I know exactly when I am going to scrape. I also am taking corners 1 or 2 gears higher. It takes a while but it does work.

Practice Makes Permanent!

White trash

18th May 2005, 11:29

. Great advice Jimmy -

There's a contradiction in terms. Right there.

gamgee

18th May 2005, 12:12

While I agree with some points that have been made at the end of the day the learner rider chooses his bike, I had to choose between a GSXR250 which the guy said you could redline in first gear.. or an SR250 which goes like 120k full go.

you can redline any bike in first gear... or second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth... even neutral!

scroter

18th May 2005, 13:48

Perfomance bikes magazine said once. if youve got enough grip to brake in the middle of the corner then you had enough grip to get round it in the first place.

if the corner tightens, relax and push the inside handlebar, leave the brakes. corse if the pegs are already on the ground youd be up shit street.

murhf3

18th May 2005, 14:23

Tyres ,Tyres ,Tyres,mate don.t be tight when buying tyres,trully get the best, they really do make a big differance :Punk:

Wenier

18th May 2005, 14:30

Another good way to learn is jus follow some really experienced guys with good lines ya can learn alot about braking points and all that.

Lou Girardin

18th May 2005, 14:33

Tyres ,Tyres ,Tyres,mate don.t be tight when buying tyres,trully get the best, they really do make a big differance :Punk:
Too true, but which are best?
Track day tyres that never get up to temp on the road or sport touring tyres that get slippery on the track? :devil2:

Motu

18th May 2005, 14:36

Too true, but which are best?
Track day tyres that never get up to temp on the road or sport touring tyres that get slippery on the track? :devil2:
Dirt tyres that are slippery in all conditions - I like consistancy.....I like a few other things too,but we'll talk about that later.....

XP@

18th May 2005, 15:11

Tyres ,Tyres ,Tyres,mate don.t be tight when buying tyres,trully get the best, they really do make a big differance :Punk:

Do they? for you possibly, but look who asked the question ... a noob to riding. For a noob it is skill that is the biggest difference.

Even the cheapest tyres stick to the road to some extent, it is really quite hard to aquire the skills needed to out ride a pair of cheepo's. It takes time to work your way out to the edge, if a noob ever got in to the circumstance that they needed to use edge of traction then they would probably fall, not because the tyres let go, but because they don't belive what they are doing is possible.

Take a look at the <= 250cc bikes around the bike parks in town. very few use all their tyres, most are flat in the centre. I saw a ZXR250 the other day, and half of the rear tyre was covered in chain oil, the bike had never been over more than about 20 deg's. No matter how expensive the tyre, a sharp left on that bike would see any rider in the ditch.

Is it right to suggest that a new rider goes out and buys a pair of expensive soft compound tyres because they stick well in corners? probably not, as they will probably never even touch the hairs on the side before "Mr WOF man" says "no" because there is no tread in the centre.

Tell the noob, Tyres are a compromise softer = better cornering versus harder = longer lasting.

I ride with long lasting, cheap tyres. my reasoning is they last long time (more than 10,000kms) and I can still make sparks in a corner. It is my choice to go as cheep as possible and I can still corner. Things may be different if I was riding a sport bike, but the important thing is to get the right tyres for you.

XP@

18th May 2005, 15:13

Another good way to learn is jus follow some really experienced guys with good lines ya can learn alot about braking points and all that.
Hmmm... but who has a good line?
the racer, commuter, cop or instructor?

Lou Girardin

18th May 2005, 15:47

Hmmm... but who has a good line?
the racer, commuter, cop or instructor?

There's the answer. Get a cop to teach them. There's nothing like riding fast in heavy traffic, day in day out, to hone the rough edges. Bikey cop, you out there?

John

18th May 2005, 15:50

There's the answer. Get a cop to teach them. There's nothing like riding fast in heavy traffic, day in day out, to hone the rough edges. Bikey cop, you out there?

But they just flick on the flashers and drive in a straight line, anyone who holds em up gets ping'd - bloody good life I say! :yes:

v.ros`

18th May 2005, 15:51

yada yada yada....

Lou Girardin

18th May 2005, 16:33

But they just flick on the flashers and drive in a straight line, anyone who holds em up gets ping'd - bloody good life I say! :yes:

Ah, the voice of experience. So you'd have enjoyed the yocal who finally sees the flashers coming up behind and stamps on the brakes while you're doing 160 k's.

Wolf

18th May 2005, 16:34

I ride with long lasting, cheap tyres. my reasoning is they last long time (more than 10,000kms) and I can still make sparks in a corner. It is my choice to go as cheep as possible and I can still corner. Things may be different if I was riding a sport bike, but the important thing is to get the right tyres for you.
Likewise, coz I'm a tight-arse. OK, so they're not as grippy as soft compound tyres but I factor that into my riding style - you won't be seeing me taking either the LS400 or the GSX250 around Puke any time soon :msn-wink:

John

18th May 2005, 16:35

Ah, the voice of experience. So you'd have enjoyed the yocal who finally sees the flashers coming up behind and stamps on the brakes while you're doing 160 k's.
Yea I was following a cop and that exact situation happened abet the speed of the car was about 100kmph/90kmph, I'll tell you what that copper was NOT happy, neither was I because the copper saw that I had followed him at a higher rate than acceptable..

Ranzer

20th May 2005, 00:00

XP@

20th May 2005, 00:26

Hmm... sounds like it's probably just me then - enough people saying they have no problems with their ZZR to make me think I just can't ride for peanuts. :whistle:
Ah well, it's good news really, nice to know there's nothing wrong with my bike :-p
Now, guess this means I need to get some serious practicing done...
Aye, thats it, practice :Punk:

I was thinking about a few more tips on the way home via my detour:
* Really don't speed up until you are comfortable with a speed, and you can take the corners cleanly.
* Watch the condition of the road (sometimes it rains and the surface will deteriorate over time)
* When you get off the bike check out how much of the tyre you are using, you will notice that you are using a little more (a few mm) each week. But dont try and use all the tyre at once.
* when you are getting close to the edge you may start to feel the road with the side of your boots. if your feet are sticking out a bit from the pegs a bit then they may touch the road. you can use this to guage lean angle (not advised when not wearing bike boots)
* you will probably find you can corner better one way than the other. dunno why but I do right handers better than left handers. unless i am on gravel, then it switches.