Do racers want to pay to use transponders at EVERY race meeting? [Archive]

Biggles08

22nd March 2010, 13:58

There has been some talk about the expense of using transponders as opposed to mark-time or equivalent at race meetings. Here is a poll to have your say on the matter. Obviously this is unscientific and arguably even pointless but it will be interesting to see what you lot think on this issue.:yes:

Lets keep it to racers only so as to try to get a feeling for what the average road racer wants from thier club. So if you currently race, feel free to vote.

Sketchy_Racer

22nd March 2010, 14:10

Meh I always use my own timer which seems consistently accurate to 0.1 of a second which is good enough for me.

Mark time is good enough to use at club days but if it turned up at nationals I would be pissed!

woodyracer

22nd March 2010, 15:22

not a fan of marktime...their numbers never do seem quite right

Skunk

22nd March 2010, 16:03

$35 won't cover it. Try closer to $40 - if you get 100 entries.

Biggles08

22nd March 2010, 16:10

$35 won't cover it. Try closer to $40 - if you get 100 entries.

That may be the case Skunk but it was a figure I pulled out of my arse as for the Nat's round at Hampton I saw they are charging $75 for a two day round....so to be pedantic lets say $37.50 per day...happy?...:innocent:

Str8 Jacket

22nd March 2010, 16:18

so to be pedantic lets say $37.50 per day...happy?...:innocent:

Isn't that what we pay at VMCC winter series anyway?

quallman1234

22nd March 2010, 16:20

Doesn't it take a-lot of people to keep a track of where everyone is in a race? Without Transponders

Skunk

22nd March 2010, 16:21

That may be the case Skunk but it was a figure I pulled out of my arse as for the Nat's round at Hampton I saw they are charging $75 for a two day round....so to be pedantic lets say $37.50 per day...happy?...:innocent:The $40 is on top of the transponder hire...

Skunk

22nd March 2010, 16:24

Doesn't it take a-lot of people to keep a track of where everyone is in a race? Without TranspondersThose are called volunteers. A real shortage of those around Auckland I hear.

Biggles08

22nd March 2010, 16:24

Isn't that what we pay at VMCC winter series anyway?

About that :-)

Str8 Jacket

22nd March 2010, 16:31

About that :-)

Yeah, around $35-$40 is reasonable to me. I enjoy meetings and although I am never usually running to the front of the field its nice to have an accurate time to measure my progress in each race.... That and I am competitive I have had a few races when I crossed the line right next to someone where I knew I had passed the line before that rider and could prove it!

Wannabiker

22nd March 2010, 18:01

...hell, I punt around in clubmans and one could argue I need a calendar, not a stopwatch for my lap times....

scrivy

22nd March 2010, 18:04

Remember the old days before transponders.............

Stop watches and lots of time keepers!!!
No one worried back then..............

k14

22nd March 2010, 18:11

There is no option for "it's club racing, who cares". That's my opinion about it anyway, for nationals, yes they are needed. For all other racing, not too bothered either way. I have my own transponder so if they allow it I will run it (if I remember to charge it) but if not then not too worried.

Biggles08

22nd March 2010, 18:11

Remember the old days before transponders.............

Stop watches and lots of time keepers!!!
No one worried back then..............

lol....ahhh the good ol days! hehehe

quickbuck

22nd March 2010, 18:19

Remember the old days before transponders.............

Stop watches and lots of time keepers!!!
No one worried back then..............
Doesn't mean transponders are not an improvement though Scrivy....

Hell, we struggle to get enough volunteers to wave flags and recover bikes... would hate to think if we asked them to click on a stop-watch too...
Then there is the whole human factors issue.

Heck, can't pay our lap scorers anywhere near enough for the BS they put up with in the Enduros (Mopedathon, and Grass Sprint)... and that is just on base!

Okay, I see your tounge in your cheek!

If I was allowed to vote:
I would go for Option 1.
For me I would like the most up to date, and accurate system available.... I am a gadget freak, and Type A personality (one of those that loves everything measured as accurately as possible, so as one can brag....)

The thing is (and I trust this is happening) is the more the transponder system is being utilised, the more development goes back into the system.
Hardware gets improved on, and development improves.

If the main customer base only uses the system every now and again, then there is little point keeping up with developing the system.

I could be off the mark, but that is how I see it.

sinfull

22nd March 2010, 19:11

Lets keep it to racers only. So if you currently race, feel free to vote.
Leave me out of the loop why don't ya !

Biggles08

22nd March 2010, 19:12

you qualify Sinfull....go for gold bro! :-)

scrivy

22nd March 2010, 19:24

Doesn't mean transponders are not an improvement though Scrivy....
Yeah, I didn't say the 'good' old days......

Hell, we struggle to get enough volunteers to wave flags and recover bikes... would hate to think if we asked them to click on a stop-watch too... Would be nigh on impossible nowadays...
Then there is the whole human factors issue.

Heck, can't pay our lap scorers anywhere near enough for the BS they put up with in the Enduros (Mopedathon, and Grass Sprint)... and that is just on base!

Okay, I see your tounge in your cheek!

If I was allowed to vote:
I would go for Option 1.
For me I would like the most up to date, and accurate system available.... I am a gadget freak, and Type A personality (one of those that loves everything measured as accurately as possible, so as one can brag....) Isn't it 9 inches....????

The thing is (and I trust this is happening) is the more the transponder system is being utilised, the more development goes back into the system.
Hardware gets improved on, and development improves.

If the main customer base only uses the system every now and again, then there is little point keeping up with developing the system.

I could be off the mark, but that is how I see it.

Why can't some techno freaks make a light system that doesn't need flaggies?? The clerk could just turn on a yellow light at a flag point....... :yes:

quickbuck

22nd March 2010, 19:27

Why can't some techno freaks make a light system that doesn't need flaggies?? The clerk could just turn on a yellow light at a flag point....... :yes:

Well... Yes, with Technology going the way it is...
That shouldn't be too far away.

Trouble is to then get the light to run over and comfort the fallen rider, and pick up his bike when he can't....

woodyracer

22nd March 2010, 19:31

Well... Yes, with Technology going the way it is...
That shouldn't be too far away.

Trouble is to then get the light to run over and comfort the fallen rider, and pick up his bike when he can't....

thats why you have robots which pick the rider up, pull his bike to the side, and give him a warm glass of milk :yes:

scrivy

22nd March 2010, 19:36

thats why you have robots which pick the rider up, pull his bike to the side, and give him a warm glass of milk :yes:

If it was a glass of bourbon, then I say hell yes!!

Seriously, why can't marshall posts have inbuilt radios/intercoms and possibly light systems??
You would still need someone to lift off a bike etc though.

sidecar bob

22nd March 2010, 19:44

lol....ahhh the good ol days! hehehe

It seemed to work, and it was $70 cheaper. Its not hard to figure out where you came in a race, & if you are testing set up, whats wrong with a mate with a stopwatch on pit wall? Do we really need to get down to two decimal places?

sidecar bob

22nd March 2010, 19:47

Well... Yes, with Technology going the way it is...
That shouldn't be too far away.

Trouble is to then get the light to run over and comfort the fallen rider, and pick up his bike when he can't....

Attatch a self-righting device to the bike & post a couple of comfort girls on the infield on pit bikes for quick response. Problem solved.

scrivy

22nd March 2010, 19:50

Do we really need to get down to two decimal places?
3 places......

Attatch a self-righting device to the bike & post a couple of comfort girls on the infield on pit bikes for quick response. Problem solved.
You mean fluffers???? You'd be crashing deliberately!!!!!!

puddy

22nd March 2010, 20:10

So excuse my ignorance, but how does marktime (and similar) work out lap times?
Nobody (marshal or comfort girls) came over and held my hand or rubbed my back when I fell off weekend before last!:mellow:

Whitebait

22nd March 2010, 20:28

Remember the old days before transponders.............

Stop watches and lots of time keepers!!!
No one worried back then..............

Back when men were men and if you had a problem with someone you just punched them.

I splashed out and bought my own transponder sure it cost me nearly $700 but it just about paid for itself now and when your a high roller like myself (insert account ballance of 26 cents here) a little bit of future proofing is a good idea.

Plus you get heaps of cool features on mylaps.com to compare yourself with other peoples laps.

How many people didn't qualify at the TRRS this year because the people in the box couldn't see the numbers????????

Motorcycles are fast now real fast.........................................shoul d we wear fluro bibs next year to make it easier????????

Everything changes..........some times for the best, I think transponders is the way forward

Good thread Biggles!

sidecar bob

23rd March 2010, 06:34

How many people didn't qualify at the TRRS this year because the people in the box couldn't see the numbers????????

Only the ones who's number sizes were so far from the specifications laid down by MNZ that it was ridiculous..

scott411

23rd March 2010, 07:22

Why can't some techno freaks make a light system that doesn't need flaggies?? The clerk could just turn on a yellow light at a flag point....... :yes:

us smart as motocross boys already have this at Harrsiville, one person can control 5 flags, and there is a LED light and a siren that goes off on command, it was not that expensive to set up either,

boostin

23rd March 2010, 07:26

Biggles how much would it cost to get transponders to say an AMCC club round?

So far it seems to be about $40 (if 100 entries) + $37.50 for transponder hire. So an additional $77.50.

gixerracer

23rd March 2010, 08:06

You fellas shoul take up lawn bowls I herd thats pretty cheap.
No transponders than you need more people to lap score etc and the modern fairing design would make this very hard
There has been some talk about the expense of using transponders as opposed to mark-time or equivalent at race meetings. Here is a poll to have your say on the matter. Obviously this is unscientific and arguably even pointless but it will be interesting to see what you lot think on this issue.:yes:

Lets keep it to racers only so as to try to get a feeling for what the average road racer wants from thier club. So if you currently race, feel free to vote.

prettybillie

23rd March 2010, 08:07

scrivy

23rd March 2010, 08:15

Back when men were men and if you had a problem with someone you just punched them.
WTF??? What's that got to do with my post?? Read it again. I didn't say the good ol' days of no transponders - just the reference to having none! But needing a tonne of timekeepers!

I splashed out and bought my own transponder sure it cost me nearly $700 but it just about paid for itself now and when your a high roller like myself (insert account ballance of 26 cents here) a little bit of future proofing is a good idea.

Plus you get heaps of cool features on mylaps.com to compare yourself with other peoples laps.

How many people didn't qualify at the TRRS this year because the people in the box couldn't see the numbers???????? As Bob stated, because their numbers do not comply with MNZ's own rulebook. There were up to 8 people trying to read their numbers at one point - but in the end no-one could identify the said bikes. Not good from a spectator perspective either.

Motorcycles are fast now real fast.........................................shoul d we wear fluro bibs next year to make it easier????????
If bikes are now 10 seconds a lap faster than they were 10 years ago (which they aren't) over a 3 km circuit, then over the span of 50 metres (the viewing area for Marktime), they are only .16 seconds faster. That is about nothing - but people used to manually time them back then. What's changed?? The number size - that's all.

Everything changes..........some times for the best, I think transponders is the way forward

Good thread Biggles!

I personally think people are getting too anal about lap times.
You can't compare yourself with others lap times from different meetings at the same track. Weather conditions change the mix immensely. Too windy, rainy, dusty, oil spilt on the track, cement dust on the race line....... not to mention was your competitor using the same tyres... or qualifying tyres, oh then there is the case of having Robert Taylor there......... did he get used to better your times, or were you there without his help??

CookMySock

23rd March 2010, 08:18

I'm surprised that timing isn't a built-in feature of the track.

Steve

Ivan

23rd March 2010, 09:04

You fellas shoul take up lawn bowls I herd thats pretty cheap.
No transponders than you need more people to lap score etc and the modern fairing design would make this very hard

Agreed thenew fairings are getting smaller and smaller look at the r6 for example the seat is so small.

codgyoleracer

23rd March 2010, 09:22

I suppose there is "lap timing" and "lap scoring" . Obviously the scoring part is pretty important and provides us all with a result of who finished where. The timing thing is a personal choice and at nats is handy to record lap records etc.
If your into lap times for your personal ego , or for personal improvemnt then get an onboard unit that works anywhere you go.
If the cost of lap timing everylap is tipping the clubs over the point of non-profit , then its a no brainer decison whether to run it or not. Lap scoring is a fundamental basic requirement though.

neil_cb125t

23rd March 2010, 09:36

Its is an additional cost, and i have competed at a few events that don't use then. The qualifying is what yanks my chain, you need some way of setting up a start grid - the old PMCC days of 12 bikes on the front row didn't really grow allot of friendships.

I dont quite see how they are so expensive per day - Go cart drivers rent a transponder for a year.. it costs them $70.. for the year.

Maybe there needs to be some competition in timing equipment providers - would we complain if it was $20 a weekend? or $100 a year?

wharfy

23rd March 2010, 11:23

Remember the old days before transponders.............

Stop watches and lots of time keepers!!!
No one worried back then..............

I bet the guy that lost third place to me at Manfeild in 1976 in the consolation race is still pissed - It was my first podium - I carried the check for $15 in my pocket for about a year to show everyone who was interested (and lots of people that weren't) - I'm pretty sure it was a timekeeping error .
I bought my own transponder, one winter series and two street meetings and it has paid for itself.

Clivoris

23rd March 2010, 14:51

Transponders definitely make things easier but there is no way that I can pay $37.50 perday. Mines paid for itself and more, and will be gracing someone elses bike this Actrix Winter Series.

lostinflyz

23rd March 2010, 16:16

why does it only cost 10 bucks down south to hire Transponders???

SWERVE

23rd March 2010, 17:28

I would guess that the $10 hire with MCC is susbsidised by the club................... and i think the club bought the whole system/set up (which is a lot of money) which would allow them to re-coup costing over many years. Prehaps the other clubs hire the whole system on a meeting to meeting basis. Sure someone will correct me if i am wrong.
If you are serious about racing and improving your riding........transponders are a very valuable tool. If you collect data and analize it you can find some very interesting areas for improvement. For anyone who has ever used transponders where there are 2/3/4 different timing points and split timing is avalable the data you can log is phenomenal.
Its not just a case of looking at a row of final lap times.................. there is much more.
We will be purchasing our own this year and looking forward to having split timing asap.

scracha

23rd March 2010, 19:53

I can't see how anyone even remotely serious about racing hasn't bought their own. Cripes, put it on the credit card and it'll pay for itself within about 6 meetings....and you can sell it when you've finished.

Whitebait

23rd March 2010, 20:41

quickbuck

23rd March 2010, 20:53

Split timing would be awesome aye!

Like you say you can break the track up into 3 or 4 sections and see where you are slower or faster than your oposition, Alowing you to work on improving particular parts of a track.

For some of us in the lower levels our lap times is all we have.....................
Well, 3 sectors like almost every race you see in V8 Supercar, and F1 would be good.

As mentioned there may well be too much emphasis put on lap times, especially comparing it from one day to a very different day.

BUT comparing lap times with yourself on the same day in my opinion is one of the few measures of improvement a racer has.
Comparing sector times would be even better!

As Scratcha said, it is best if you get your own transponder.... Could very well be something you could ask one of the Sponsors to buy you?? Just a thought...( and a hint Neil).

scuzeme

25th March 2010, 09:53

I brought my Transponder for about $700, so at $40 per race meeting thats going to pay for itself in 2 years a worth while investment.
I like the transponder system because the night after the race you can go onto mylaps, and for those who know how to use it properly, you can get all sorts of useful data from your races.
The club isnt tied up with extra bods having to score/count etc just charge the fucker up slap it on a forget about it.
As far as lap times are concerned i dont even have to use my XT lap timer anymore, Transponders are the way to go.

t3mp0r4ry nzr

27th March 2010, 16:07

wharfy

27th March 2010, 16:18

iWhen racing, lap times arent as important as finish order in my opinion.

Yep but sometimes the finish order is determined by hundredths of a second - transponders are well worth the money in those cases.
In the scheme of things $700 dollars for a transponder is not much compared to comsumeables like tyres, oil (and in my case cycle parts !!)

FROSTY

28th March 2010, 13:36

Years ago i mentioned that auckland CAR club have all the equipment needed to run transponders. including the transponers themselves. Talking to them would probably be clever

Biggles08

30th March 2010, 15:06

its a mass start race, not a time trial. you compete against other riders, not the clock. Im always one to favour lower racing costs, so if transponder hire cost can be reduced or eliminated, Im keen! If your really keen to know what laps your pulling, you will time yourself with thatever technology you wish to use ie, cell phone at trackside, timing beacon thingy or other devices.

But qualification times need to be accurate. When racing, lap times arent as important as finish order in my opinion.

I agree with what you are saying but I think the point of transponders in a race is ONLY for scoring and eliminating any human error with who's done how many laps and who came where. If it was all about ONLY lap times for personal use then yes we wouldn't require them at all...but they have greater applications than merely that.

snapoff

30th March 2010, 21:46

All time on tracks is important ,this is history ,you need to no what times you are doing and what times others are doing to go faster, if you think you dont need to no then you are not a racer you are a muppet,when you turn up to the track all you need to no is which way does the track go and what is the lap record.

Marknz

31st March 2010, 05:29

...hell, I punt around in clubmans and one could argue I need a calendar, not a stopwatch for my lap times....

I resemble that remark ;-)

WarrenW

5th April 2010, 21:01

Ok guys, take a step back and think of this from the organisers view. You have 40 + bikes out in a qualifying session, every lap has to be timed in order to get accurate grid positions. Keeping track of that many bikes would mean a lot of stopwatches and lots of human input, not to mention the people that need to be organising the grid position whilst the next qual session is running. You would (in the current economic climate) probably need to coax these 'volunteers' with a little pocket money. Overall the race day would suffer as things would not be done as accurately or quickly. I also think the costs would not be too much different.
I agree that the clubs involved could look at purchasing the equipment themselves. Bear in mind that the rechargeable ones have a finite battery life and are blooming expensive (unless you know the right contacts in Aussie) to get the batteries replaced as the units are encapsulated. If the club made it mandatory to have a transponder owned as part of the condition of entry, they could possibly negotiate a bulk deal from AMB, past history has seen very little reduction in these prices. People could then pruchase one from the club and resell it back to the club or another competitor when they ceased racing.
The investment in the acutal timing system (PC, software etc with NO transponders would likely to be about $15K) this would be a very limited system that would do the job slower than the current Timing supplied by Tim Gibbes (he has about 8 or 9 laptops around the track at any one time).

I think the cost is fair for the outlay that has been invested by Tim. I have personally used E-Bay to locate a second hand rechargeable unit and purchased it from the UK at well below what you pay for a new one. It was 3 years old when I bought it and it's still going strong, regular charge cycles have seen to that.

Think outside the square, source them from overseas or just go buy one, the Vic Club is unlikely to go back to the cave man days with 50+ vollies to run an event. Imagine being the poor person that would have to coordinate that!.

Go forwards not backwards - even at club events.
My 2c worth.
Cheers

wharfy

6th April 2010, 08:41

I think the cost is fair for the outlay that has been invested by Tim.
Indeed, I am pretty sure he's not going to make the "rich list" from it. I have MUCH more confidence in the fully electronic system than in in any manual method's. I am in the computer biz, I know that computers can "f*%k up" but 99% of the time it is human error (wrong input or lack of testing) The AMB system is mature and well tested, finish order and lap times require no human intervention. I have no idea what backups Tim Gibbs crew have in place at a race meeting but I would be surprised if they had none. In the couple of years or so I've been actively involved in (modern) racing I don't recall hearing about a failure of the system. Checking your transponder is charged up (or for me plugged in ) is just part of bike prep. Having said that of course I have gone out to qualify without my transponder being plugged in :(
I hired a transponder for the first year when I raced my road bike, but decided that when I sprung for a race bike purchasing a transponder was just part of the cost, $700 about the same as a single set of tyres.

quickbuck

6th April 2010, 20:07

.... but decided that when I sprung for a race bike purchasing a transponder was just part of the cost, $700 about the same as a single set of tyres.

That's the way I see it too Warfy....

Biggles08

10th April 2010, 08:55

Interesting...at present over 75% of racers are willing to pay extra to have a more accurate timing system at EVERY race event.....I must say though, I'm not really surprised...but I am surprised at how many want transponders 'at any extra cost...(27% at time of writing this comment).' I personally voted for option 2. I think some clubs could learn from this poll if they chose to.

boostin

10th April 2010, 09:22

So how much extra would it be to run them at an AMCC club day?

Biggles08

12th April 2010, 17:38

So how much extra would it be to run them at an AMCC club day?

I'm not sure boostin....I imagine in the vicinity of an extra $35-$40 per rider, per day. I'm sure someone can answer more specifically though as that is only going on what extra we get charged at VMCC run events. Of course, as people have said, if they were serious about racing AND transponders were being used at every race meeting attended, it would make it an easy choice to go out and purchase a transponder to own. food for thought :-)

prettybillie

15th April 2010, 10:17

I think the cost is fair for the outlay that has been invested by Tim.

You have to realise as well that the clubs who run the meets have to pay Tim a huge fee for his time to be there as well. As far as I am concerned with what he's making in hiring out transponders and his fee for doing the service - he's doing alright for himself. So realising this if transponders were used in the current state, the clubs would need to increase their entry fees also to compensate for the timing crews fee.

My question would be are the timers double dipping by charging the clubs for their time and charging racers for the hire - one would think the fee they charge the clubs should be inclusive of the transponder hire.

The comment was made at Hampton Downs Nationals by the timing crew that they try to make the hirage fee as much as possible to encourage riders to buy their own. Fairly unreasonable I think.

Kiwi Graham

15th April 2010, 11:05

I'm not sure boostin....I imagine in the vicinity of an extra $35-$40 per rider, per day. I'm sure someone can answer more specifically though as that is only going on what extra we get charged at VMCC run events. Of course, as people have said, if they were serious about racing AND transponders were being used at every race meeting attended, it would make it an easy choice to go out and purchase a transponder to own. food for thought :-)

I can see the day looming thet all racers are going to have to use transponders and purchasing your own is going to make sense. Realisticly the cost of hiring one every weekend is soon going to out way the cost of a one of purchase and provided you mount them in an 'out of the way place' so they dont get muntered in a bin there resale value will be high for when you done racing. There are so few out on the second hand market and there cost is only minimaly cheaper than a new one anyway.

I've heard the concept mentioned that when you buy your licence you buy your transponder with the agreement to sell it back if you dont renew your licence. A big outlay to start with but with a guaranteed buy back value.

Tim made a smart move in investing in transponders, he gets to charge two people, the racer and the timer not a bad buisness eh.

Biggles08

19th April 2010, 11:13

You have to realise as well that the clubs who run the meets have to pay Tim a huge fee for his time to be there as well. As far as I am concerned with what he's making in hiring out transponders and his fee for doing the service - he's doing alright for himself. So realising this if transponders were used in the current state, the clubs would need to increase their entry fees also to compensate for the timing crews fee.

My question would be are the timers double dipping by charging the clubs for their time and charging racers for the hire - one would think the fee they charge the clubs should be inclusive of the transponder hire.

The comment was made at Hampton Downs Nationals by the timing crew that they try to make the hirage fee as much as possible to encourage riders to buy their own. Fairly unreasonable I think.

I guess it comes down to how much riders are willing to pay extra PB. You might be more in a position to tell us exactly what extra on top of usual race fees it would be for AMCC to have transponders at every club round. Has anyone worked that out exactly?....what extra cost per day you would have to charge every racer? Has the question been asked of Tim G too? He most likely would do a better deal for AMCC too if he knew he was going to be at every round. Food for thought anyway.