Mining and Labour trying to fuck it

[Tank]

from RedAlert - being the ramblings of the left:

Don’t waste your yen yuan or $US
Posted by Trevor Mallard on March 23rd, 2010
Any mines opened under changes that John Key is proposing will be closed by the next Labour led government.

There will not be compensation for mining companies.

So international (or local) mining companies – don’t waste your money.



Way to go Mallard - a total area of 2.2 x 2.2 km over the entire of NZ - bringing in (what was it - 180 Billion) and you guys pander to the tree huggers.

Lets see you sell this at election time - when you have to raise taxes, and increase borrowing.

You really are a idiot.

[Ixion]

QWell, that's rathr silly. Much more sensible would have been to warn that any mines opened etc would be nationalised without compensation .

Then a NZ government could decide to keep them open or close them (depending on how worthwile they were , in terms of value actually remaining in NZ). And then, if they did decide to keep them open, the profits would remain in NZ.

[Mully]

Then a NZ government could decide to keep them open or close them (depending on how worthwile they were , in terms of value actually remaining in NZ). And then, if they did decide to keep them open, the profits would remain in NZ.

Now, that's an idea.

Bling duly blung.

[golfmade]

Not necessarily a bad thing that foreign companies can't go in to mine, although saying no mining what so ever is a bit extreme.

[peasea]

You really are a idiot.

It's 'an idiot'.

Idiot.

You're right though, fuckin' tree huggers, they're all queer fucks.

[Tank]

It's 'an idiot'.

Idiot.

You're right though, fuckin' tree huggers, they're all queer fucks.

doh - I cant help it - its my accent - I keep dropping my N's

[avgas]

I dunno.
I grew up around mining - and I think that while the mining is not a bad thing.........my great grandkids have every right to kick me in the nuts if the country has impassable areas due to tailings dams infecting the place (FYI don't walk in certain parts of Coro, or drink the water).
Likewise areas will collapse due to de-watering.
While I don't hug tree's, I would hope that NZ's "common sense" is a little better than US and Aussie. Yes, science and engineering exists so these problems don't happen.....no, gold mine co's don't pay for anything more than they are required.
But if it did happen, I would not go to the streets to protest, nor will I feel that employees of such companies are the devil. Just a little part of me inside would die.

[Jonno.]

LOL at people who think New Zealand's image will be tarnished.

[SPman]

from RedAlert - being the ramblings of the left:

Don’t waste your yen yuan or $US
Posted by Trevor Mallard on March 23rd, 2010
Any mines opened under changes that John Key is proposing will be closed by the next Labour led government.

There will not be compensation for mining companies.

So international (or local) mining companies – don’t waste your money.



Way to go Mallard - a total area of 2.2 x 2.2 km over the entire of NZ - bringing in (what was it - 180 Billion) and you guys pander to the tree huggers.

You really are a idiot.
Bringing in how much?

The $160 billion quoted is a figure pulled out of his arse.....errr, the air by a mining rep as an estimate - all surveys so far show about $3bill of assets, of which the government get fuck all anyway - around $300 mill! The royalties aren't very high. That's when they aren't subsidising the mining companies to find something!

How about opening up areas OUTSIDE national parks for mining exploration!

You really are a idiot.

[Tank]

Bringing in how much?

The $160 billion quoted is a figure pulled out of his arse.....errr, the air by a mining rep as an estimate - all surveys so far show about $3bill of assets, of which the government get fuck all anyway - around $300 mill! The royalties aren't very high. That's when they aren't subsidising the mining companies to find something!

How about opening up areas OUTSIDE national parks for mining exploration!

You really are a idiot.

It's 'an idiot'.

Idiot.

[peasea]

doh - I cant help it - its my accent - I keep dropping my N's

Like GN's and shit like that? You should be more careful.

[freedom-wedge]

I dunno.
I grew up around mining - and I think that while the mining is not a bad thing.........my great grandkids have every right to kick me in the nuts if the country has impassable areas due to tailings dams infecting the place (FYI don't walk in certain parts of Coro, or drink the water).
Likewise areas will collapse due to de-watering.
While I don't hug tree's, I would hope that NZ's "common sense" is a little better than US and Aussie. Yes, science and engineering exists so these problems don't happen.....no, gold mine co's don't pay for anything more than they are required.
But if it did happen, I would not go to the streets to protest, nor will I feel that employees of such companies are the devil. Just a little part of me inside would die.

Not a tree hugger either, but there is a lot more to this than meets the eye, we wont do as well as we might think out of this either, only a few will benefit, I think that the protests coming might surprise you all. Heres a thought, they might reduce ACC levies on us so that we don’t join the tree huggers and swell their numbers. Keep watching I think we could learn somthing about making a government sit up and take notice.

pedro

[Crasherfromwayback]

You're right though, fuckin' tree huggers, they're all queer fucks.

Damn straight. They killed off the Two Strokes.

[Blackbird]

I dunno.
(FYI don't walk in certain parts of Coro, or drink the water).

Agreed - there are old mine shafts within a few hundred metres of our house and sticking to the established bush paths is a sensible precaution if you don't want to vanish without trace. There's no doubt that the old extraction techniques damaged the environment but modern mining techniques have a much lower environmental footprint. There's some fantastic restorative work going on in the southern Coromandel too which doesn't hit the headlines because it's not sensationalistl. Trouble is, it's almost impossible to get a balanced view as opposing parties both have rabid (and not entirely truthful) views. Living in the Coromandel, I'm not opposed to mining PROVIDED it's done in a strictly controlled manner. Simply leaving riches in the ground if they can be extracted with minimal environmental impact doesn't make economic sense.

[peasea]

Damn straight. They killed off the Two Strokes.

And look what they did to muscle cars!
Bastards...

[Tank]

And look what they did to muscle cars!
Bastards...

and what did they give us - fucken hybrids.....shudder...

[peasea]

BOT.

I don't think there's any harm in having a look for mineral wealth in a lot of places. Trouble is; when the miners find a spot that looks promising the greenfreaks leap up and down and go on about how pristine the place is. Never mind nobody knew it was there, let alone go there for any reason. It's like the Clyde and Benmore dams; big fuss at the time but ultimately it's a reality of human existence, we had to build them and other dams like them. Whats a few holes and pile of tailings here and there?

It's not like they're going to dig open mines the size of Lake Taupo everywhere is it?

Ya gotta break eggs to make omlettes.

[peasea]

and what did they give us - fucken hybrids.....shudder...

Did you see the episode of Top Gear when they pitched a Prius against a V8 BMW to see which one used the most gas?
Fuckin' funny.

[Tank]

Ya gotta break eggs to make omlettes.

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[Ixion]

... There's some fantastic restorative work going on in the southern Coromande too which doesn't hit the headlines because it's not sensationalistl. .. Simply leaving riches in the ground if they can be extracted with minimal environmental impact doesn't make economic sense.

Who's paying for it? And how do you restore all the little beasties and such that fled when it all turned to shit?

I'm the world's most ungreenie person, but I can't see that the New Zealand citizen is getting bugger all out of this.

All very well saying it doesn't make economic sense to leave riches in the ground, but it won't be US that will be getting the riches when they're extracted, it'll be a bunch of foreigners, laughing all the way to the bank. Whilst *we* get to inherit the "Minimal environmental impact".

And the "minimal" is always understated. It's not just the big holes in the ground. And it's not even just the big holes, and the tailings dumps, or the contaminated streams on the site. It's the land miles downstream where those streams have ended up. And the eddy pools where those contaminants have accumulated. Mining company is not going to restore that, it's outside their lease area. And it's the birds that have fled, because they get scared off their nests by all the machinery operating. The world's just a huge card house, pull one card out and there's no knowing how much ends up falling down. And 90% of what falls down we don't see, or even know about, maybe for centuries. Not even then, because the folk then wouldn't know what it might have been if it had not been poisoned. And it's the fact that while all this mining is going on , great stretchs of that conservation area will be off limits to New Zealanders, because of OSH and such like. And the trucks on the road (bad enough now around Coromandel with the logging trucks).

And we, you and I, get what exactly for accepting all that shit?

[DidJit]

Tell me Prime Minister, tell me if you will,
How many people benefit from Conservation Mines?
How much richer will the few be?
The Assassin says, we don't miss an opportunity.

Fire, fire, fire, light up ya lighter,
Fire, fire, fire!

[oldrider]

Agreed - there are old mine shafts within a few hundred metres of our house and sticking to the established bush paths is a sensible precaution if you don't want to vanish without trace. There's no doubt that the old extraction techniques damaged the environment but modern mining techniques have a much lower environmental footprint. There's some fantastic restorative work going on in the southern Coromande too which doesn't hit the headlines because it's not sensationalistl. Trouble is, it's almost impossible to get a balanced view as opposing parties both have rabid (and not entirely truthful) views. Living in the Coromandel, I'm not opposed to miniing PROVIDED it's done in a strictly controlled manner. Simply leaving riches in the ground if they can be extracted with minimal environmental impact doesn't make economic sense.

Isn't that what the resource management act is really all about?

Safeguarding our environment but still utilising the resource's

The trouble is that the Labour party and their "green" Luddite mates stuffed the resource management act up so much that it chokes off everything, so that nothing ever gets done!

All that I have heard suggested is opening some DOC land for investigation any positive initiative will be subject to gaining consents in the normal manner!

FFS, enough of the emotional claptrap and let things go through the correct channels and then have your gripes on fact instead of fiction!

DOC are controlling more than a third of the country and have it all locked up tight and are creating a bloody great fire risk or poisoning everything!

And they call that environmental management! Fuck me, the lunatics are running the asylum! :sick:

[mashman]

Bringing in how much?

The $160 billion quoted is a figure pulled out of his arse.....errr, the air by a mining rep as an estimate - all surveys so far show about $3bill of assets, of which the government get fuck all anyway - around $300 mill! The royalties aren't very high. That's when they aren't subsidising the mining companies to find something!

How about opening up areas OUTSIDE national parks for mining exploration!

You really are a idiot.

So let me get this right. They want to test and then mine for minerals. To do that they'll take publicly owned land, paid for and maintained by John Q, and let someone mine it, or worse, sell it on to make a buck (will we see any of that... nada). Why aren't they using privately owned land? Is it because privately owned land isn't free (the owner would want a cut)? and then who gets the proceeds? have you ever seen what happens to a mining community when there's nothing left to mine (lots of it all of the UK in the 70's, but money came from somewhere to save the day)? Upshot Camel Nose Under Tent... If it's that non invasive, do it somewhere else and then build on it later, or line what's left and use it as a giant water source.

[peasea]

And we, you and I, get what exactly for accepting all that shit?

Um, less trees?

Ergo, less tree huggers!

Yay.

[SPman]

It's 'an idiot'.

Idiot.
I cut and pasted from your post!

Snap!

[Skyryder]

Go Trev............................tell the Mining companies to go and get fucked if they come here and fuck our parks.

No wonder Key wanted to be Tourism Minister.............anyone else would be up and down like a yo yo. There are 'Heritage' issues here guys. You know that thing that makes us Kiwis and proud of the country that we live in.

And do ya realy want to go on the Coro loop and run into somebig mining truck or some'it.


Skyryder

[JimO]

personally i think its a great idea, everybody wants a efficient health/education system, everybody wants a good lifestyle in their old age, nobody wants to pay more tax, unlocking our mineral wealth makes sense the gummit could structure it so we dont get robbed by some overseas mining company, of course labour dont want it but wernt they the ones that lumbered us taxpayers with the rail at a ridiculous price and whyle i at it cut the long term beneficiaries if they aint looking for work fuck them they can live under a bridge and eat grass

[JimO]

Go Trev............................tell the Mining companies to go and get fucked if they come here and fuck our parks.

No wonder Key wanted to be Tourism Minister.............anyone else would be up and down like a yo yo. There are 'Heritage' issues here guys. You know that thing that makes us Kiwis and proud of the country that we live in.

And do ya realy want to go on the Coro loop and run into somebig mining truck or some'it.


Skyryder

i knew comrade skyrider would be agin it.......bet he wont want to give up his benefit either

[DidJit]

Hmmm, shall we put the cat (http://www.thestandard.org.nz/mining-our-national-parks-for-the-us-war-machine/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=mining-our-national-parks-for-the-us-war-machine) amongst the pigeons?...

Just another theory to consider. ;)

[Blackbird]

Trying to rationally answer your questions, which I'm sure are rhetorical:


Who's paying for it? And how do you restore all the little beasties and such that fled when it all turned to shit?

Actually, Newmont Mining are paying for a lot of the restoration in the Waihi area, including fauna. I'm not an ecologist, so haven't a clue about the mechanics of it.

I'm the world's most ungreenie person, but I can't see that the New Zealand citizen is getting bugger all out of this.

All very well saying it doesn't make economic sense to leave riches in the ground, but it won't be US that will be getting the riches when they're extracted, it'll be a bunch of foreigners, laughing all the way to the bank. Whilst *we* get to inherit the "Minimal environmental impact".

Local labour, communities and infrastructure get the benefits and at a national level, there are licencing royalties and so on. I think you're being a bit disingenuous Les! There are very few pure NZ organisations that would be wholly NZ-owned and these are no different from mining organisations in that some money goes offshore. And that includes the company that you hold a senior position in! Owned by Danone (France) until October 2008, then bought by Suntory (Japan) for $1.3 bn. That's international commerce for you since international commerce started. The mining industry is no different surely?

[rainman]

the gummit could structure it so we dont get robbed by some overseas mining company

But they won't. 'Cos they're stoopid.

[Winston001]

Don’t waste your yen yuan or $US
Posted by Trevor Mallard on March 23rd, 2010
Any mines opened under changes that John Key is proposing will be closed by the next Labour led government.

There will not be compensation for mining companies.

So international (or local) mining companies – don’t waste your money.




Pure bluster. No western government could afford to treat foreign companies that way. Even the bleakest African dictatorship shies away from nationalisation where overseas businesses are involved. It would mean the instant slamming of international doors and destruction of our economy.

[Skyryder]

Pure bluster. No western government could afford to treat foreign companies that way. Even the bleakest African dictatorship shies away from nationalisation where overseas businesses are involved. It would mean the instant slamming of international doors and destruction of our economy.

That's one take. The other is to show that the emining companies need to employ some caution before investing large sums of money into a project that they know they will not be compensated for.

Mallard's statement is nothing more than a 'Your're not welcome in our National Parks and should be seen as this and nothing else.


Skyryder

[oldrider]

That's one take. The other is to show that the emining companies need to employ some caution before investing large sums of money into a project that they know they will not be compensated for.

Mallard's statement is nothing more than a 'Your're not welcome in our National Parks and should be seen as this and nothing else.


Skyryder

Mallard is typical of the no hopers the Labour party attract, a bother boy in sheeps clothing! The press only use him for stiring up shit!

[pete376403]

Government royalties on gold & silver are a little over 1%. According to Crown Minerals annual report 2008, 523,000 ounces of gold were extracted that year. Say average price of $US1000/ounce, give a return to NZ of $US5 1/4 million. Not really worth the shit the country takes in exchange.

http://www.crownminerals.govt.nz/

[Hitcher]

It often amazes me how many New Zealanders want the benefits of a first world economy but who are prepared to dismiss out of hand any initiatives that may contribute to this.

Just because the Gummint may want to "open up" parts of the conservation estate doesn't mean that that will ever happen, nor does it mean that environmental values will be compromised. Indeed the extent of the guarantees that mining companies may be required to stump up with for rehabilitation costs may deter many.

Meanwhile the desperate, gullible and headline seekers will continue to jump to conclusions. At least the trolls are being well fed.

[Winston001]

On the larger scale I'm against mining of the conservation estate. Measuring the mineral potential may be an interesting exercise but it is only of value if some mining actually goes ahead.

In the short term mining is attractive. Lots of engineering, roads, infrastructure, ports, jobs galore, taxation and royalties to the government. Simply have a look at the wealth across the Tasman and reflect upon the number of Kiwis who move to Australia. Much higher wages, lower taxes, and a great lifestyle.

I don't suggest NZ would reap an exactly equivalent bounty but there would be a significant boost to our economy - for a while.

But no - my objection is purely that New Zealand is a beautiful unspoiled country and I'd like it to stay that way. There are no minerals here which are so rare that continued human existence will fail if we don't dig them up. It's a damned nice place and I struggle to think of a better positioned land mass on the planet. Lets not wreck it for the one-off boom of minerals.

[Hitcher]

On the larger scale I'm against mining of the conservation estate.

You are presuming that such activities would do harm? What if they didn't?

If you're so keen for New Zealand to be an unspoiled wilderness, it would be best that we all fucked off to Australia. After we had exterminated all of the other mammals.

[Ixion]

Trying to rationally answer your questions, which I'm sure are rhetorical:

Thing is that mining is a bit different. Most manufacturing is sustainable , you can keep on making whatever it is. If the company is overseas owned, the profits go off shore, but if/when the company packs up and goes away we ( the country) still have pretty much what we started with. But mining, is like selling capital. The minerals that get mined are gone for good. They don't grow back like grass or timber or water .

And most manufacturing doesn't crap out the countryside like mining does.

Someone noted that the total return to the country for ALL the gold mined is about 5 million. That's SFA for the mess we get left with. 1% of the value. The other 99% goes to the corporates, and it's gone for ever.

[Conquiztador]

I am just waiting for the Maoris to come to the table...:innocent:

[Winston001]

You are presuming that such activities would do harm? What if they didn't?

If you're so keen for New Zealand to be an unspoiled wilderness, it would be best that we all fucked off to Australia. After we had exterminated all of the other mammals.

In essence you are right. No more immigrants, get rid of deer, pigs, opposums, gorse, broom etc etc - if only we could. I'd love to see parts of NZ returned to wilderness. In fact its happening here and there. My father and grandfather dug miles of drains by hand and with horse-drawn drags. That land today is being returned to swamp to absorb dairy runoff. Funny how things turn out.

[Blackbird]

Thing is that mining is a bit different. Most manufacturing is sustainable , you can keep on making whatever it is. If the company is overseas owned, the profits go off shore, but if/when the company packs up and goes away we ( the country) still have pretty much what we started with. But mining, is like selling capital. The minerals that get mined are gone for good. They don't grow back like grass or timber or water .

And most manufacturing doesn't crap out the countryside like mining does.

Someone noted that the total return to the country for ALL the gold mined is about 5 million. That's SFA for the mess we get left with. 1% of the value. The other 99% goes to the corporates, and it's gone for ever.

Does the fact that it's not sustainable anywhere in the world mean that it just has to sit there unused? I think not as it doesn't make economic sense anywhere in the world. I'd agree with you wholeheartedly if mining was proven beyond doubt to irrepairably fuck up the environment but I don't think that is the case and as Old Rider said, there is also legislation in place to control it. Despite what I might sound like, I'm not anti-environmental and pro-business. All I wanted to point out is that hysteria by the press and both sides of the argument paints plack and white pictures where in reality, there are most likely shades of grey which paint an entirely different picture.

[Winston001]

Why aren't they using privately owned land? Is it because privately owned land isn't free (the owner would want a cut)? and then who gets the proceeds?

Let's be clear - there is plenty of privately owned land in NZ being mined. The owners and the miners share the profits. One of the biggest miners of course is Solid Energy - which is owned by the government.

Speaking of which, Solid Energy own a huge area of farmland in Eastern Southland under which are a few billion tonnes of lignite. This isn't conservation estate, just ordinary productive paddocks. The plan at the moment is to convert the lignite to urea which is a valuable nitrogen fertiliser. Urea can be exported with all profits going to the government.

The other idea is conversion to liquid fuel - again all profits would go to the government.

I'm cautious about carbon release but if these two processes provided for carbon sequestration then rolling paddocks aside to get the lignite seems a reasonable type of mining to me. I've seen gold dredgings rehabilitated by L&M Mining and have to concede they did an excellent job - you'd never know machines had been there.

[Woodman]

No mining please, we gotta start thinking beyond short term goals (jobs, money etc) and think of the long term survival of the planet. We as a species are just raping the environment for all its worth and it really needs to stop, its just not sustainable and I think you all know this is the case. I'm not a treehugger either but it really doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if we cut down all the trees, fuck with the water, and pump c02 back into the atmosphere we are fcuked.

[Ixion]

Does the fact that it's not sustainable anywhere in the world mean that it just has to sit there unused? I think not as it doesn't make economic sense anywhere in the world.


No. Like I said, I'm no greenie. But the deal has to reflect that (a) we're selling off capital - it's not like Frucor or Kinleith. Trees and apples regrow, water keeps falling. But once the minerals are mined and shipped off, they're gone for ever. In effect we're selling off the birthright of future generations. The return has to recognize that.

And unlike most businesses, this is highly destructive activity. At present those areas provide me and others with a spiritual benefit ( it's not just Maoris that can understand that stuff) . Mining buggers that, certainly while it's going on, maybe for generations, maybe for ever. The deal has to recognize that too.

Those recognitions have to provide benefit for ordinary New Zealanders, not just corporations.

Those factors have never IMHO been recognized in the past. I see no evidence that any short term future deal will adequately recognize them either.





I'd agree with you wholeheartedly if mining was proven beyond doubt to irrepairably fuck up the environment but I don't think that is the case and as Old Rider said, there is also legislation in place to control it.


whether the damage (there certainly always is damage) is irreparable, I don't know. What I am sure of is that repairing it is formidably expensive. And no mining deals ever to date have provided more the mining companies to pay more than a token amount toward it . 'Legislation' is just a gesture - if it actually provided for realistic reparation requirements, the mining companies would just evade it, using the same sort of tricks that property developers use.

I just heard on the TV that they are talking about minerals worth $60 billion dollars. Billion not million. We get $5 million .

Now, if the value is $60 billion, that's a capital value. So how about the mining companies pay us the $60 billion less actual costs of extraction ? Bet they wouldn,t be interested. What they want is a third world deal. The clear the place out, once it's stripped bare make a token gesture at hiding the scars and flick us a few million, for which we should be grateful.

Those minerals belong to all of us. The environment belongs to all of us. Any deal, we should get the full value of the minerals and the full value of the environmental damage. I can't see the corporates being interested on those terms. So the only question is how violently they rape us.

[Ixion]

Let's be clear - there is plenty of privately owned land in NZ being mined. The owners and the miners share the profits. One of the biggest miners of course is Solid Energy - which is owned by the government.



The issue with that sort of deal between the goverment and multinationals is how the shares are shared. Invariably we get the short end of the stick. Not an issue when the other part is publically owned - it comes back to us one way or other. So that's a much more acceptable arrangement


Speaking of which, Solid Energy own a huge area of farmland in Eastern Southland under which are a few billion tonnes of lignite. This isn't conservation estate, just ordinary productive paddocks. The plan at the moment is to convert the lignite to urea which is a valuable nitrogen fertiliser. Urea can be exported with all profits going to the government.

The other idea is conversion to liquid fuel - again all profits would go to the government.


That's a whole different ball game to mining the Coromandel. It's not conservation estate and it's far far easier to repair. That's the sort of mining initiative the Government should be looking at

[oldrider]

No mining please, we gotta start thinking beyond short term goals (jobs, money etc) and think of the long term survival of the planet. We as a species are just raping the environment for all its worth and it really needs to stop, its just not sustainable and I think you all know this is the case. I'm not a treehugger either but it really doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if we cut down all the trees, fuck with the water, and pump c02 back into the atmosphere we are fcuked.

Why hello, take a look around you, what you have claimed would happen because of mining, is exactly what has happened by "dairy expansion" and "wine expansion"!

Mining will be much more stringently controlled because of the hysteria, while the wine and dairy juggernaut rolls merrily unchecked on their destructive way!

Either way, I want to carry on enjoying the lifestyle I have enjoyed for the past 70 years and hope for the same for my grand children too, it didn't come easy, there may be some sacrifices required but you still have to move forward. :yes:

[Winston001]

That's a whole different ball game to mining the Coromandel. It's not conservation estate and it's far far easier to repair. That's the sort of mining initiative the Government should be looking at

Well as I said, I'm not in agreement with the govt mining conservation land. However there are already 82 mining operations on public land (apparently) and no fuss was made. Labour approved the Pike River coal mine when it was the govt.

We need to be rational about this. Modern mining methods no longer require open-cast pits if the land is sensitive. And if precise low impact tunnels aren't economic then nothing happens. Nobody is going to bore expensive holes just to lose money. Road tunnels are built in scenic areas around the world without destroying the environment.

I still don't believe the risk is worth while, just trying to hold a balanced view. :D

[Pixie]

Thing is that mining is a bit different. Most manufacturing is sustainable , you can keep on making whatever it is. If the company is overseas owned, the profits go off shore, but if/when the company packs up and goes away we ( the country) still have pretty much what we started with. But mining, is like selling capital. The minerals that get mined are gone for good. They don't grow back like grass or timber or water .

And most manufacturing doesn't crap out the countryside like mining does.

Someone noted that the total return to the country for ALL the gold mined is about 5 million. That's SFA for the mess we get left with. 1% of the value. The other 99% goes to the corporates, and it's gone for ever.

You can always offer the depleted holes to store overseas nuclear waste

[T.W.R]

I dunno.
I grew up around mining - and I think that while the mining is not a bad thing.........my great grandkids have every right to kick me in the nuts if the country has impassable areas due to tailings dams infecting the place (FYI don't walk in certain parts of Coro, or drink the water).
Likewise areas will collapse due to de-watering.
While I don't hug tree's, I would hope that NZ's "common sense" is a little better than US and Aussie. Yes, science and engineering exists so these problems don't happen.....no, gold mine co's don't pay for anything more than they are required.
But if it did happen, I would not go to the streets to protest, nor will I feel that employees of such companies are the devil. Just a little part of me inside would die.


Bringing in how much?

The $160 billion quoted is a figure pulled out of his arse.....errr, the air by a mining rep as an estimate - all surveys so far show about $3bill of assets, of which the government get fuck all anyway - around $300 mill! The royalties aren't very high. That's when they aren't subsidising the mining companies to find something!

How about opening up areas OUTSIDE national parks for mining exploration!

You really are a idiot.

As an ex opencast mine worker (Opencast coal at Huntly working under Baker Mining Ltd) these posts are pretty much on the money :yes:

[Blackbird]

Thing is that mining is a bit different. Most manufacturing is sustainable , you can keep on making whatever it is. If the company is overseas owned, the profits go off shore, but if/when the company packs up and goes away we ( the country) still have pretty much what we started with. But mining, is like selling capital. The minerals that get mined are gone for good. They don't grow back like grass or timber or water .

And most manufacturing doesn't crap out the countryside like mining does.

Someone noted that the total return to the country for ALL the gold mined is about 5 million. That's SFA for the mess we get left with. 1% of the value. The other 99% goes to the corporates, and it's gone for ever.

Les, it's nice to have intelligent debate without the normal KB penchant for pettiness when people hold opposing views - thank you for that! If all NZ was going to get out of it was such a paltry royalty (in addition to employment), I'd be opposed to it too which leads me to wonder whether we're missing something.

[avgas]

I'm not opposed to miniing PROVIDED it's done in a strictly controlled manner. Simply leaving riches in the ground if they can be extracted with minimal environmental impact doesn't make economic sense.
Very true. However I am still not convinced.
Martha used to be a hill
Waihi has had whole burbs dissappear.
Couer (sp?) have left the country with the worlds most poisonous swimming pool.....which is slowly slipping down the hill.
To fix these problems does not make economic sense - so to force companies to use the 'cleanest method' will basically scrap the large operations.
100 years from now I would hope that NZ is the 'Green' destination of the world. Our e-tourism would be the best in the world.
Those figures would far superimpose the mining ones in the long run (200+ years). Where as Aussie is slowly shooting itself in the foot. Likewise France and Africa.
However for any of this to happen, NZ would have to have radical changes..........so may be we should just give up now and mine the fucker now. I mean that is the kiwi way isn't it?

[avgas]

Why hello, take a look around you, what you have claimed would happen because of mining, is exactly what has happened by "dairy expansion" and "wine expansion"!

Mining will be much more stringently controlled because of the hysteria, while the wine and dairy juggernaut rolls merrily unchecked on their destructive way!

Either way, I want to carry on enjoying the lifestyle I have enjoyed for the past 70 years and hope for the same for my grand children too, it didn't come easy, there may be some sacrifices required but you still have to move forward. :yes:
Very true. However also very short-sighted.
As said earlier - just because the ability to control is there, doesn't mean that it will be used.
Govt has not heard the population yet in regards to ANYTHING. What makes you think they will when it comes to mining. Their concern is very simple.....$
While I do believe that people involved in the mines deserve the pay for their work - the big picture says that something is not right.
By saying we should allow it purely on the high pay involved, and the comfortable lifestyle (when not working), is like saying whoring should be acceptable.
Seeing my old man cough up black shit after a 14+ hour shift in the dark told me that their has to be more to life. Likewise someone was ripping him off somewhere. But he did it for us.
Do you want your grandkids doing it for their kids? Or do you hope its better for them?

[Skyryder]

Why hello, take a look around you, what you have claimed would happen because of mining, is exactly what has happened by "dairy expansion" and "wine expansion"!

Mining will be much more stringently controlled because of the hysteria, while the wine and dairy juggernaut rolls merrily unchecked on their destructive way!

Either way, I want to carry on enjoying the lifestyle I have enjoyed for the past 70 years and hope for the same for my grand children too, it didn't come easy, there may be some sacrifices required but you still have to move forward. :yes:


I've yet to seeone overseas company take any interest in the NZ environment let alone the welfare of the country as a whole. They do not and will not simply becasue those that make the decisions do not live here.

Jeeeeeeeaz OR even those that live in New Zealand, i.e. dairy farmers don't give a toss. I see Fonterra is threating to stop collections from those dairy farmers who continue to pollute our rivers and waterways.

Mining the conservation estate is not only wrong it is an atack on the heritage values that we New Zealsnders expect all Governments to uphold. You are fortunate OR; you see these vlaue outside your doorstep. Most of us do not as we live in the city.

I don't see the destruction no matter how slight of New Zealsnd's heratige values as moving forward.................in fact the very opposite.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Mallard is typical of the no hopers the Labour party attract, a bother boy in sheeps clothing! The press only use him for stiring up shit!

So I gather you are for the mining of our National Parks?

'Opencast mining not in plan,' says Key. Sadly I can not rust this man to keep his word.

With Mallard you know what you get so how you think he is 'bovver' boy in sheeps clothing is beyond me. A 'mad dog' I think is a better ephet.






Skyryder

[Tank]

I am just waiting for the Maoris to come to the table...:innocent:

Unlike under labour when a tanifa (sp?) stopped the southern motorway and made New Zealand a laughing stock in the worlds news papers - I think National will be a bit more 'realistic' (or not so PC that it passes the bounds of reasonableness)

[imdying]

I'm the world's most ungreenie person, but I can't see that the New Zealand citizen is getting bugger all out of this.Same. This country is not so badly off that it needs to rape the countryside for a little revenue. One day I expect that that will be the case, and not just in NZ. Even though I hope that's not in my life time (and thus nothing in it for me), I hope we at least wait till then.

[mashman]

Unlike under labour when a tanifa (sp?) stopped the southern motorway and made New Zealand a laughing stock in the worlds news papers - I think National will be a bit more 'realistic' (or not so PC that it passes the bounds of reasonableness)

Ha ha ha... as far as realism goes, politicians are about as far removed from it as possible... just take a look at the policies they've implemented over the last 20 years (at least)... I don't care which party conceived or implemented them... but they seem to think that throwing money at a problem fixes it... You must have seen this is your line of work no?

[Ixion]

.. If all NZ was going to get out of it was such a paltry royalty (in addition to employment), I'd be opposed to it too which leads me to wonder whether we're missing something.

Possibly. But according to today's Harold what we get out of it is "

Mining companies currently pay the Government royalties of about 1 per cent of the value of the mineral mined but it can vary depending on the type of mineral.
* They enjoy a tax regime described by the New Zealand Minerals Association as "concessionary". Mining companies may immediately deduct their exploration, building, mine shaft, plant and machinery, production equipment and storage expenses. * Mining companies pay the Government nominal fees for prospecting, exploration and mining permits ranging from $3.50 per square kilometre for a prospecting permit and $10 per hectare for a mining permit.
So, 7000 hectares @ $10 = $70000. Doesn't include the costs of extra infrastructure (roads etc) they'd need/want outside the 7000 hectares.
And 1% of the value . Previous reference suggests maybe $5 million. Less those "concessionary" tax breaks.
I'm underwhelmed. If there are other tangible benefits, no-ones disclosing them.
The lignite to fuel idea the Churchillian gentleman mentioned seems much less objectionable. Less downside, and it's a NZ company so we keep all the value.

[mashman]

Couer (sp?) have left the country with the worlds most poisonous swimming pool.....which is slowly slipping down the hill.


But there are solutions to the "poisonous swimming pool"... water powered cars for instance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrxfMz2eDME

I believe, from what I have seen on the net (can't find it at the moment), that any water engine (could be anything really) could burn that "dirty" water and as it condenses produces clean water as it's byproduct... where's the research? Why are we not looking into this?

[Ender EnZed]

So, 7000 hectares @ $10 = $70000. Doesn't include the costs of extra infrastructure (roads etc) they'd need/want outside the 7000 hectares.
And 1% of the value . Previous reference suggests maybe $5 million. Less those "concessionary" tax breaks.
I'm underwhelmed. If there are other tangible benefits, no-ones disclosing them.
The lignite to fuel idea the Churchillian gentleman mentioned seems much less objectionable. Less downside, and it's a NZ company so we keep all the value.

There's also the unknown impact on our tourism industry.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/3499693/NZs-green-image-takes-bashing
http://www.economist.com/world/international/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15763381




...where's the research? Why are we not looking into this?

Probably because perpetual motion machines only work on gullible and sensationalist news reporters.

[Swoop]

There's also the unknown impact on our tourism industry.
Yeah! Bugger going to Australia. They have mines over there!
The sensationalist greenie lunatic-fringe will hype this up, thinking it will help their cause, when really the average tourist wouldn't have a bloody clue about the existing amount of mining conducted here.

[Ender EnZed]

the average tourist wouldn't have a bloody clue about the existing amount of mining conducted here.

No, but they might hear about new operations on previously reserved land.

[mashman]

Probably because perpetual motion machines only work on gullible and sensationalist news reporters.

Never mentioned perpetual motion... was just offering one potential solution for actually using the polution in the pool... but it seems that logical suggestions scare people away... maybe because if it could be done, we would have expected the industry to have implemented by now... but why would they... they have versions and upgrades of things to sell first... just a perspective

[rainman]

But there are solutions to the "poisonous swimming pool"... water powered cars for instance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrxfMz2eDME

I believe, from what I have seen on the net (can't find it at the moment), that any water engine (could be anything really) could burn that "dirty" water and as it condenses produces clean water as it's byproduct... where's the research? Why are we not looking into this?

Um, because it's a scam?

Think through the chemistry. How could this actually work?

[rainman]

On the mining issue: there are some unaccounted-for economic risks, notably that the rest oif the world will stop believing our bullshit.

http://www.economist.com/world/international/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15763381

[SPman]

I'd be opposed to it too which leads me to wonder whether we're missing something.

Perhaps.......

http://www.thestandard.org.nz/keys-mining-plan-a-pay-back-for-crosbytextor/

[Winston001]

Possibly. But according to today's Harold what we get out of it is "
So, 7000 hectares @ $10 = $70000. Doesn't include the costs of extra infrastructure (roads etc) they'd need/want outside the 7000 hectares.
And 1% of the value . Previous reference suggests maybe $5 million. Less those "concessionary" tax breaks.
I'm underwhelmed. If there are other tangible benefits, no-ones disclosing them.


Mmmm....the benefits of mining are not in the royalties and I don't think any government has ever claimed otherwise. What mining provides is direct employment coupled with downstream industries such as engineering, construction, road building, electricity reticulation, housing, shops etc etc. This in turn provides the economy with extra GST and tax revenue which makes us all better off.

As for corporates - if any of you are familiar with investment markets you'll know that mining companies are high risk. You do not buy mining shares if you want to keep your money safe. A few win - spectacularly - most fail. I should know, I've made the mistake on the Oz mining market. :D

As I've said earlier, simply look across the Tasman for the proof. Most Australians never go near a mine yet their economy has boomed for 30 years compared with NZ. It really is the lucky country.

I'm also not sure why we get excited by potential keyhole-surgery type mining on the conservation estate when there is plenty of existing mining on other parts of NZ land. Aren't our hills and pastures valuable parts of our environment too?

[Ixion]

Mmmm....the benefits of mining are not in the royalties and I don't think any government has ever claimed otherwise. What mining provides is direct employment coupled with downstream industries such as engineering, construction, road building, electricity reticulation, housing, shops etc etc. This in turn provides the economy with extra GST and tax revenue which makes us all better off.

As for corporates - if any of you are familiar with investment markets you'll know that mining companies are high risk. You do not buy mining shares if you want to keep your money safe. A few win - spectacularly - most fail. I should know, I've made the mistake on the Oz mining market. :D



Well, the same might be said of whore houses. And it is us taxpayers who pay for the cost of the construction, road building, electricity reticulation, housing, shops. So I don't see how that counts as a benefit for the mining companies. I reckon BHP would be a pretty safe investment, long term.

[AllanB]

Personally I think the Dairy industry is doing more harm to NZ's 'green image than a few piddly little highly regulated mines will ever do.

And Labour have allowed mining in NZ during their last reign.

[JimO]

No, but they might hear about new operations on previously reserved land.

AND they wont give a FUCK

[Swoop]

And Labour have allowed mining in NZ during their last reign.
However, according to the "untelligensia" around here, that was caused by National.

[Skyryder]

http://www.economist.com/world/international/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15763381


Skyryder

[MisterD]

http://www.economist.com/world/international/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15763381




Oh noes, the Economist! As soon as the Grauniad has a go, I'll know the gummint's on the right track...

[98tls]

Why hello, take a look around you, what you have claimed would happen because of mining, is exactly what has happened by "dairy expansion" and "wine expansion"!

Mining will be much more stringently controlled because of the hysteria, while the wine and dairy juggernaut rolls merrily unchecked on their destructive way!

Either way, I want to carry on enjoying the lifestyle I have enjoyed for the past 70 years and hope for the same for my grand children too, it didn't come easy, there may be some sacrifices required but you still have to move forward. :yes:

I hear that John,amazed theres a thread about mining but cant ever recall seeing one about the fucking dairy farmers (xcuse the language but they really do fuck me off) and what there doing. I am certainly no greenie but down here in Waitaki the continual sucking our rivers dry and replacing the water with shit is well past a joke.Went for a wander with the dog out at Gemmels crossing awhile back,bugger all water and what there was i wouldnt drink,down stream a bit i came across yet another irrigation system being fed directly from the river.Local residents lose the use of a beautiful river to ensure another dairy farmer gets his payout,had to chuckle at Fonterras disappointment over 3 hundred millon less than they expected but still able to offer the same payout to the farmer,anyone pissed off about the price of cheese.

[mashman]

http://www.economist.com/world/international/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15763381


Skyryder

"New Zealand... Come and see it before it's all gone".

[Woodman]

Why hello, take a look around you, what you have claimed would happen because of mining, is exactly what has happened by "dairy expansion" and "wine expansion"!

Mining will be much more stringently controlled because of the hysteria, while the wine and dairy juggernaut rolls merrily unchecked on their destructive way!

Either way, I want to carry on enjoying the lifestyle I have enjoyed for the past 70 years and hope for the same for my grand children too, it didn't come easy, there may be some sacrifices required but you still have to move forward. :yes:

Don't disagree with you at all, and of course I want everyone to have the lifestyle we have now, well us here in NZ anyway, we won't mention the third world countries. What I was trying to say is that it is not sustainable at the rate we are going. Progress by mining, fishing,intensive dairy farming, stripping rain forests etc is not necessarily going forward. There is a cost to the environment that just can't be undone.

BTW sorry I rode straight past your coffe kiosk in January.

[mashman]

I hear that John,amazed theres a thread about mining but cant ever recall seeing one about the fucking dairy farmers (xcuse the language but they really do fuck me off) and what there doing. I am certainly no greenie but down here in Waitaki the continual sucking our rivers dry and replacing the water with shit is well past a joke.Went for a wander with the dog out at Gemmels crossing awhile back,bugger all water and what there was i wouldnt drink,down stream a bit i came across yet another irrigation system being fed directly from the river.Local residents lose the use of a beautiful river to ensure another dairy farmer gets his payout,had to chuckle at Fonterras disappointment over 3 hundred millon less than they expected but still able to offer the same payout to the farmer,anyone pissed off about the price of cheese.

I'm just pissed of with it all... it's everywhere you turn... it's resource management at its worst... zero planning, more $$$... we'll fix it later... she'll be right!

[pete376403]

As I've said earlier, simply look across the Tasman for the proof. Most Australians never go near a mine yet their economy has boomed for 30 years compared with NZ. It really is the lucky country.

I'm also not sure why we get excited by potential keyhole-surgery type mining on the conservation estate when there is plenty of existing mining on other parts of NZ land. Aren't our hills and pastures valuable parts of our environment too?

The returns of the proposed "keyhole-surgery" type mining are so small there's really no point. Australia gets the big returns because they go for digging up the country and shipping it to China, India and New Zealand (Queensland bauxite to comalco) on an enormous scale. But I'll bet they aren't doing it in their National Parks

[oldrider]

BTW sorry I rode straight past your coffe kiosk in January.

Did you come across the Black Forrest track? (and you didn't call in!)

Well, I came up to your territory in 2007 and bought my new (then) bike at "Thunderbikes".

Don't remember you complaining about me not calling in to see you! :lol:

[Sach]

Ok, I am speaking here as a person who moved into a mining town knowing nothing about it and have ended up with a job that entails taking people around the current mining operations that Newmont has in Waihi. Yes they have a huge Hole in the middle of town but this is not the future of mining in NZ. There are restrictions of noise, dust and Vibrations in place that are hard to work under and its not the practical way these days. Favona which the current under ground mine in waihi is based in the base of Gladstone Hill which is in waihi. the portal is 5 x 5 and you would never know it existed if you had not heard about it or seen it when on the mine site. Current underground mining doesn't leave open shafts and voids in the land as they take all the waste rock ( rock that contans no gold or silver in this case) back under to back fill which means there is no need to have mass waste rock embankments . Newmont are very open to the public and the media have done the whole scaring people thing by showing shots of martha mine ( the huge open pit) when ever mining is mentioned. This is because it is easily accessable and close to Auckland and is dramatic ...

As for the toxic tailings well I urge you to come on a tour and actually see what is at the top of the tailings embankment here....There are birds and the first inland breeding area for the NZ dotterel. You could drink the water ( full of duck shit)... come see what modern mining is about before you dismiss the idea it is not about fucking our land thats for sure....

[oldrider]

The returns of the proposed "keyhole-surgery" type mining are so small there's really no point. Australia gets the big returns because they go for digging up the country and shipping it to China, India and New Zealand (Queensland bauxite to comalco) on an enormous scale. But I'll bet they aren't doing it in their National Parks

DOC are already flat out "poisoning" our National Parks right now and that's OK is it? :shit:

There will be very strong control on any future mining activity, besides, there are already mines in the parks now!

They were there under the Labour governments too but they (Liabour) are not interested in the facts when they are on an political hysteria bent! :mellow:

[Sach]

yes there are already 80 odd mining activites on DOC land in NZ....
Martha is Partly Doc land

[Pixie]

Mining the conservation estate is not only wrong it is an atack on the heritage values that we New Zealsnders expect all Governments to uphold.

Skyryder

Bullshit! the NZ heritage is that of harvesting whale oil to provide fuel, cutting down forests to create farms,Damming rivers to create power,Mining any viable mineral to create wealth,building railways,roads and ports to transport all this.
Study your history,not rewrite you own version

[Pixie]

Ok, I am speaking here as a person who moved into a mining town knowing nothing about it and have ended up with a job that entails taking people around the current mining operations that Newmont has in Waihi. Yes they have a huge Hole in the middle of town but this is not the future of mining in NZ. There are restrictions of noise, dust and Vibrations in place that are hard to work under and its not the practical way these days. Favona which the current under ground mine in waihi is based in the base of Gladstone Hill which is in waihi. the portal is 5 x 5 and you would never know it existed if you had not heard about it or seen it when on the mine site. Current underground mining doesn't leave open shafts and voids in the land as they take all the waste rock ( rock that contans no gold or silver in this case) back under to back fill which means there is no need to have mass waste rock embankments . Newmont are very open to the public and the media have done the whole scaring people thing by showing shots of martha mine ( the huge open pit) when ever mining is mentioned. This is because it is easily accessable and close to Auckland and is dramatic ...

As for the toxic tailings well I urge you to come on a tour and actually see what is at the top of the tailings embankment here....There are birds and the first inland breeding area for the NZ dotterel. You could drink the water ( full of duck shit)... come see what modern mining is about before you dismiss the idea it is not about fucking our land thats for sure....

The greenie/pinkos will never let the facts get in the way of good scaremongering

[T.W.R]

Bullshit! the NZ heritage is that of harvesting whale oil to provide fuel, cutting down forests to create farms,Damming rivers to create power,Mining any viable mineral to create wealth,building railways,roads and ports to transport all this.
Study your history,not rewrite you own version

You better check yours....most of those things you describe were done through the glory of the British empire....the world leaders of raping other countries to feed their own

[Pixie]

The returns of the proposed "keyhole-surgery" type mining are so small there's really no point. Australia gets the big returns because they go for digging up the country and shipping it to China, India and New Zealand (Queensland bauxite to comalco) on an enormous scale. But I'll bet they aren't doing it in their National Parks

Are you a mining engineer?
The first and most relevant parameter used to decide whether underground or opencast mining is to be used is how deep the ore seam is.
In most cases opencast is not an option because the mineral is too far underground.
Bauxite and iron ore are found in huge deposits.The minerals NZ has are,with the exception of coal and titanomagnetite,are trace deposits in small isolated reefs.

"Kakadu National Park, located in the Northern Territory of Australia, possesses within its boundaries a number of large uranium deposits. The uranium is legally owned by the Australian Government, and is sold internationally"

[Quasievil]

But I'll bet they aren't doing it in their National Parks

Yeah they are Bro, ever been to Jabiru in the northern territory, I have and its a huge mine smack in the middle of a national park

[Pixie]

You better check yours....most of those things you describe were done through the glory of the British empire....the world leaders of raping other countries to feed their own

When exactly did The british empire end and NZ INC begin.
My Uncle worked for the NZ Electricity dept.from the 1940s,not the British Empire Electricity Dept.
I've never heard of any British Empire farmed Lamb begin sent to england.
For that matter that is a pretty good delusion you've got going there.
I applaud you.:clap::slap:

[T.W.R]

When exactly did The british empire end and NZ INC begin.
My Uncle worked for the NZ Electricity dept.from the 1940s,not the British Empire Electricity Dept.
I've never heard of any British Empire farmed Lamb begin sent to england.
For that matter that is a pretty good delusion you've got going there.
I applaud you.:clap::slap:

pick to small items huh? BTW where did the 1st ship load of frozen lamb head too?

I like your delusion of Opencast mining too......done a few hours around haulroads & seam faces huh?

[rainman]

Well, that didn't take long:
http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/brownlee-overvalued-great-barrier-claims-3431164

Next is the bait and switch - "No we won't mine the Barrier after all (but we will also mine the following areas...)".

Fucken liars.

[Quasievil]

Well, that didn't take long:
http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/brownlee-overvalued-great-barrier-claims-3431164

Next is the bait and switch - "No we won't mine the Barrier after all (but we will also mine the following areas...)".

Fucken liars.

I love this quote from Goff

"Whatever John Key takes out of that estate that is protected, Labour will put back on becoming government," says Goff.

Clever guy, whats he going to do buy all the minerals back and bury it.....Labour brains at it again eh lol

[T.W.R]

When exactly did The british empire end and NZ INC begin.
My Uncle worked for the NZ Electricity dept.from the 1940s,not the British Empire Electricity Dept.
I've never heard of any British Empire farmed Lamb begin sent to england.
For that matter that is a pretty good delusion you've got going there.
I applaud you.:clap::slap:

ha and another thing too...

Electrcitiy mmmm where exactly does that go huh? ooh that's right to the general consumer....the population of the country.
When does gold & mineral deposits actually end up with the general public huh??

[T.W.R]

DOC are already flat out "poisoning" our National Parks right now and that's OK is it? :shit:

not interested in the facts when they are on an political hysteria bent! :mellow:

Another 1080 bend huh John??? you've be lead to delusion by the Graf brothers

[Pixie]

ha and another thing too...

Electrcitiy mmmm where exactly does that go huh? ooh that's right to the general consumer....the population of the country.
When does gold & mineral deposits actually end up with the general public huh??

Well if,as in your fantasy,NZED was BEED,I would expect the profits to go to England.
Give up.You're wrong and you know it.
So sad to see someone clutching at straws:laugh:

[T.W.R]

Well if,as in your fantasy,NZED was BEED,I would expect the profits to go to England.
Give up.You're wrong and you know it.
So sad to see someone clutching at straws:laugh:

you're an amusing twat....

[rainman]

I love this quote from Goff

"Whatever John Key takes out of that estate that is protected, Labour will put back on becoming government," says Goff.

Clever guy, whats he going to do buy all the minerals back and bury it.....Labour brains at it again eh lol

You obviously missed the bit that mining might take a few years to get going (no InstaMine!). And there's an election next year, when hopefully the country will wake up from it's bout of temporary insanity and kick these useless, lying, bastards to touch. At which point any changes to S4 can be undone, with in all likelihood no minerals to put back.

I'd say "National brains at it again" but first there'd have to be evidence that those existed. :bleh:

Back to the point though - are you really so insecure that you can overlook flagrant lies from a politician just because he's "one of yours"? And don't give me the standard "all of them lie, so it's OK" crap.

[oldrider]

Well, that didn't take long:
http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/brownlee-overvalued-great-barrier-claims-3431164

Next is the bait and switch - "No we won't mine the Barrier after all (but we will also mine the following areas...)".

Fucken liars.

See saw, Majorie dore, Jenny shall have a new master (old nursery rhyme) that's what has fucked Auckland all these years!

NOTHING REALLY EVER GETS DONE!

Time to get real and make these politicians manage the country the way "we" want it managed but first we have to decide what the fuck it is that "we" really want!

Politicians only respond to the wants of the electorate in order to get votes, the confusion of the politicians only reflects the confusion of the electorate!

In my experience there is nothing as dumb and misinformed as the average New Zealander standing up and spouting forth his general and historical knowledge!

You want political stability and truth from your politicians, have a good look in your bathroom mirror and you will see why we have got the confusion that we have!

The same things go for our medical system, Doctors behave the way do because they are responding to patient demands for a miracle pill!

If we were all visiting spacemen, how do you think you would perceive New Zealand? I suspect It's not a pretty sight!

Flopping back and forth between Labour and National has never got us anywhere and MMP has made it worse!

Instead of A and B fighting for the benefit of "C", it is now ABCDEFG and H, "all" fighting for the benefit of "C"! Great odds for "C"!

Times are getting tougher every day, time for clearer thinking than this hysterical shit the media are dishing up daily for average Joe to consume! :brick:

[Quasievil]

are you really so insecure that you can overlook flagrant lies from a politician just because he's "one of yours"?

if youre a labour man im laughing...............alot

[rainman]

In my experience there is nothing as dumb and misinformed as the average New Zealander standing up and spouting forth his general and historical knowledge!
...
If we were all visiting spacemen, how do you think you would perceive New Zealand? I suspect It's not a pretty sight!
...
Times are getting tougher every day, time for clearer thinking than this hysterical shit the media are dishing up daily for average Joe to consume! :brick:

I'd agree with most of that. Problem is (on both sides) people have their identity so embedded in being "for" one party and "agin" the other that they miss the bigger picture. (Take Mr Quasi for a recent example, I suspect). Also, our media doesn't do us any great service when it comes to pointing out reality - far easier to run some entertainment distraction that to put boring economics/politics/world affairs in the paper, who wants to read that?

We are not a pretty sight, when viewed externally. Our biggest failing is to believe we're special, in global terms, for reasons other than our idealised image of being clean, green, nuke free, hobbit loving hippies - which we don't seem to value highly, when it comes to the crunch. Most of the rest of the world doesn't even know where we are, let alone the reality of our actual economic and environmental operation. We're not special. Time we grew up.

The world out there is in an interesting place at the moment, and we certainly need some clear thinking, and some tough decisions. Blind continuation of ideas from the past, whether right wing or left, won't serve us best. Good luck getting the general uninformed public to understand that, though.


if youre a labour man im laughing...............alot

No, I'm not. Care to answer the question, or are you going to do a Tank and avoid that?

[MisterD]

are you really so insecure that you can overlook flagrant lies from a politician just because he's "one of yours"?

I really hope you're not a Labourite...shall we look at "Mr Margin of Error" and his positions on GST or, yes, mining?

[MisterD]

The world out there is in an interesting place at the moment, and we certainly need some clear thinking, and some tough decisions.

Like say, a hard look at the balance between mineral wealth and the eco-religion, or limits on the depths of society's pockets when it comes to welfare?

Thanks to the pragmatism of the new government we're coming out of the global fuckup with a significantly smaller deficit than most developed countries. I'm picking that this stoush over mining will actually be the setup to justify the needed cuts on government expenditure come budget time...

[rainman]

Like say, a hard look at the balance between mineral wealth and the eco-religion, or limits on the depths of society's pockets when it comes to welfare?

Framed in somewhat different terms, and amongst a whole bunch of other things, yes.

For clarity, I'm pretty sure the answer isn't "Rogernomics 2", btw. Or anything like it.


I really hope you're not a Labourite...

No, I'm not. And you're missing the point.

[avgas]

But there are solutions to the "poisonous swimming pool"... water powered cars for instance.
Something tells me it does not run on cyanide and various acids. These poisonous swimming pools I speak of do not contain water.

[Skyryder]

Whatever the figure Gerry 'dates in my cake' Brownlle or John 'I don't care about the tourism industry' Key comes up with the royalties on this mining is only 1%. I have always said that Key is not a smart politician. To put at risk his Government at the next election for such a small amount reiinforces my opinion of the man. National seems to have forgotten the lessons of Manapouri.

Skyryder

[Quasievil]

No, I'm not. Care to answer the question, or are you going to do a Tank and avoid that?

Sorry what was the question ?

[MisterD]

Framed in somewhat different terms, and amongst a whole bunch of other things, yes.

For clarity, I'm pretty sure the answer isn't "Rogernomics 2", btw. Or anything like it.


Yeah, and telling the mining companies that they can have a bit more detailed look at a tiny fraction of scheduled land before giving the government a proposal on how they might be able to mine it is hardly armaggeddon is it?

We don't need "Rogernomics 2", but we shouldn't doom this country to being a backwater green theme park...FFS if actual green-ness was really an issue to your average tourist they wouldn't get on a jumbojet to come here. A couple of mines won't make Milford Sound any less spectacular, Bungee jumping in Queenstown any less exciting or Marlborough Sauvignon any less fantastic.

That, is the point.

[MisterD]

Key comes up with the royalties on this mining is only 1%.

...and the GST on all the expenditure, the PAYE on the wages from the jobs created, the tax on the profits....the government clips the ticket at every step.

[avgas]

Ok, I am speaking here as a person who moved into a mining town knowing nothing about it and have ended up with a job that entails taking people around the current mining operations that Newmont has in Waihi. Yes they have a huge Hole in the middle of town but this is not the future of mining in NZ. There are restrictions of noise, dust and Vibrations in place that are hard to work under and its not the practical way these days. Favona which the current under ground mine in waihi is based in the base of Gladstone Hill which is in waihi. the portal is 5 x 5 and you would never know it existed if you had not heard about it or seen it when on the mine site. Current underground mining doesn't leave open shafts and voids in the land as they take all the waste rock ( rock that contans no gold or silver in this case) back under to back fill which means there is no need to have mass waste rock embankments . Newmont are very open to the public and the media have done the whole scaring people thing by showing shots of martha mine ( the huge open pit) when ever mining is mentioned. This is because it is easily accessable and close to Auckland and is dramatic ...

As for the toxic tailings well I urge you to come on a tour and actually see what is at the top of the tailings embankment here....There are birds and the first inland breeding area for the NZ dotterel. You could drink the water ( full of duck shit)... come see what modern mining is about before you dismiss the idea it is not about fucking our land thats for sure....
Sach I like you, and don't feel for a moment that I am bashing the mining companies or their employees. Fact of the matter is that I grew up around various mining sites - So I have full respect for all who deal with underground mining. In fact if it wasn't for the strong employment rates and GOOD employment that the mines offer I would be against it.
But sadly I would have to say you have bought the company ticket (which is fine, we all do it). But not all that glitters is gold.
Currently under Waihi are Tomo's the size of small mountains, which thanks to dewatering have caused the ground to be unstable. This is why you have a nice fenced off section of the town. I only feel bitter about this as I loved Waihi as the little town it is, and I fear than when Newmont pull out - the town will slowly die.
As for the fucking the land, I do agree with you - it is not fucking the land. It is just a small slip. However we only need a few thousand small slips and we are in the same boat as rest of the world. Unfortunately for us we are fucking ourselves on so many other areas - I fear mining might be our last stand for something.
What next - dredging sand (silica) from waihi beach? long netting off coro coast? Hell I hear the Japanese need whale meat - we have a fucking smorgasbord in Kaikoura.
It only takes baby steps to fall down a set of stairs. I personally would rather be fucked financially now than have my kids live with a tainted history.

[Okey Dokey]

I'm afraid that NZ will be fucked financially and all the kids will leave as they won't feel that living here is an option.

[rainman]

Sorry what was the question ?

Sigh. I must be bored.

Are you happy, Mr Quasi, Mr Brownlee to blatantly lie to you regarding the value of minerals that this exercise is based on, or do you expect a basic level of competence from your politicians?


ONE News discovered the true value is less than third of the billions Brownlee has been claiming, could be mined from the Hauraki Gulf island.
...
"Look I think &the numbers are always going to be all over the show until you get something out of the ground, you simply don't know what the story is," Brownlee says.

Sounds compelling, huh? I've written heaps of business cases, and getting fundamental benefit value wrong by 2/3 would earn me an arse-kicking of proportions - as it should. If I tried a line like the quote above at a governance meeting I'd be sent away to do much more work - as I should. If I did it more than once I would not expect continued employment, let alone bludging at the level of a ministerial pay packet. FFS, he could at least try to do the job - counldn't even get his shit together enough to manage house process the other day.

Then again, judging by the rigour applied to the supercity costs and benefits, this is par for the course. So much for the Nats and their much-touted business literacy.

Are you going to hold your beloved Nats to account for this, or are you just another hypocrite?

[Tank]

or are you going to do a Tank and avoid that?

Its not that im avoiding answering your question - its just that I have decised that you and skyryder are so far gone that there is no point in replying to your biased, poorly thought-out, rantings.

You and your comrades can moan all you want - but the people have spoken at the last election and the polls reflect that people are sick of the leftie shit. Long may they stay in opposition - because it looks like they might be there for a long, long time. (pfft - and they cant even do that well).

[Tank]

Speaking of mining.

http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/files/2010/03/Picture-4.jpg

Goff likes it so much - he opened his office right next door. :lol:

I wonder if he even knew it was there?

[Quasievil]

Sigh. I must be bored.

Are you happy, Mr Quasi, Mr Brownlee to blatantly lie to you regarding the value of minerals that this exercise is based on, or do you expect a basic level of competence from your politicians?


Was it a lie or a clarification..........dunno not that interested in semantics, more interested in NZ being a prosperous country using resources at its disposal, without compromising our enviroment to a degree where it would be an issue.
Thats all I care about.

[MisterD]

Are you happy, Mr Quasi, Mr Brownlee to blatantly lie to you regarding the value of minerals that this exercise is based on, or do you expect a basic level of competence from your politicians?

Given that "this exercise" is about granting licences to allow mining companies to survey areas and come up with an accurate number rather than the wild guesstimates we have at the moment...I fail to see how it really matters.

A consultation process is under way, nobody's starting any bulldozers.

[Quasievil]

nobody's starting any bulldozers.

Stink I thought it would have been funny seeing Mr Rainman tied to the front of the Bulldozer screaming NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

[rainman]

Its not that im avoiding answering your question - its just that I have decised that you and skyryder are so far gone that there is no point in replying to your biased, poorly thought-out, rantings.

Yeah, 'cos ad hom is so much easier than actually explaining where the fucking jobs are going to come from. Weak.

What you and your ilk might fail to apprehend is that my political views are far from ideological. I have lots in common with the greens, true, which you likely would balk at (or maybe I just see what the greens could be), but I also have a lot in common with what ACT should be (and isn't, by a country mile), and what Labour should be (and isn't either). What I have no time for is stupid, populist, short-sighted, incompetent, undemocratic, ideological arses like the fools we have in Wellington at the moment. And I do feel that if I'm paying the fuckers hundreds of thousands every year they could at least pretend to do a decent job of earning it.

I'm not a die-hard Labourite, but they are the lesser of two evils at the moment. A second term of this bunch would screw this country up beyond repair.


Was it a lie or a clarification..........dunno not that interested in semantics, more interested in NZ being a prosperous country using resources at its disposal, without compromising our enviroment to a degree where it would be an issue.
Thats all I care about.

A hypocrite, then.

[Quasievil]

A hypocrite, then.

What ever youre comfortable with mate, you decide.

[Swoop]

A second term of this bunch would only just be starting to fix the fuckups made over the last 9 years of labour's incompetence.
Fixed your post for ya!

[mashman]

Fixed your post for ya!

Yeah, whew, for a moment there I thought there were hundreds of years worth of govt mistakes... glad it was only 9... at least there's a political party that doesn't fuckup and is completely on the ball somewhere... we can relax now...

[avgas]

at least there's a political party that doesn't fuckup and is completely on the ball somewhere.
Even Guy Fawkes fucked up. And I trust him out of any polly in the world.
Trust anyone as far as you can throw them - and it seems the beehive demographic is getting fatter.
FYI I am a skinny white dude, so you could almost trust me as much as a dwarf.

[SPman]

Yeah, 'cos ad hom is so much easier than actually explaining where the fucking jobs are going to come from. Weak.

What you and your ilk might fail to apprehend is that my political views are far from ideological. I have lots in common with the greens, true, which you likely would balk at (or maybe I just see what the greens could be), but I also have a lot in common with what ACT should be (and isn't, by a country mile), and what Labour should be (and isn't either). What I have no time for is stupid, populist, short-sighted, incompetent, undemocratic, ideological arses like the fools we have in Wellington at the moment. And I do feel that if I'm paying the fuckers hundreds of thousands every year they could at least pretend to do a decent job of earning it.

I'm not a die-hard Labourite, but they are the lesser of two evils at the moment. A second term of this bunch would screw this country up beyond repair.



A hypocrite, then.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to rainman again.

I wouldn't call Brett a hypocrite...I guess, like a lot of people trying to make a living in a small business, he would like a Government that allows him to prosper, (as do we all), and, being disillusioned with what Labour did, or didn't achieve, would hope that the Nat's, and ACT, professing to be the party that helps businesses, would do a better job of it. It must be galling, to start to realise they are an even bigger lying pack of clueless wombats than Labour were......

[Pascal]

How many of the fiercely partisan opponents to anything the current government does have actually read the proposal? And how many of you are simply listening to what the media is spoon feeding you?

Have a read here (http://www.med.govt.nz/upload/71967/Schedule%204%20stocktake%20-%20Discussion%20paper%20_without%20maps_.pdf). See if you actually learn something.

[mashman]

Even Guy Fawkes fucked up. And I trust him out of any polly in the world.
Trust anyone as far as you can throw them - and it seems the beehive demographic is getting fatter.
FYI I am a skinny white dude, so you could almost trust me as much as a dwarf.

PAH! Dirty little bastards, rapin the land by day and abusing the housekeeper by night... (i have thrown a dwarf before... mate of mine at school... used to lob him across the social area... fuck it was funny... bleeding hearts, bad men bad men put him down... "Calum, you're putting on a little weight, it's getting harder to throw you these days"... ahhh the innocent days :shifty:)

[mashman]

How many of the fiercely partisan opponents to anything the current government does have actually read the proposal? And how many of you are simply listening to what the media is spoon feeding you?

Have a read here (http://www.med.govt.nz/upload/71967/Schedule%204%20stocktake%20-%20Discussion%20paper%20_without%20maps_.pdf). See if you actually learn something.

You're shitting me right. I never made it past the first page when it said "The opinions and proposals contained in this document are for discussion purposes only and do not
necessarily reflect Government policy."...

[Pascal]

You're shitting me right. I never made it past the first page when it said "The opinions and proposals contained in this document are for discussion purposes only and do not necessarily reflect Government policy."...

Then did you know that although they are proposing removing 7,058 hectares, they are also proposing adding 12,400 hectares to Section 4? A net gain.

This whole thing should be considered carefully. It should be thought out a lot more than the current media beatup and the mish-mash from our resident Labour / Green party supporters. And those who support the government should keep them honest so they don't fuck with our green image or touch areas that are best preserved. Like Great Barrier.

The document also covers standardising on rules and regulations around this, ensuring that any applications go through a uniform process, etc. This all seems sensible. And the removal from Section 4 does not translate to "mined the fuck out". It means that applications for investigation and exploration will be considered on a case by case basis. Where they are looking to standardise the rules.

But best of all? From March 2010 to May 2010 you get to have your say. Refer to page 36 onwards. It gives you options on how to handle your submission to the process.

[mashman]

Then did you know that although they are proposing removing 7,058 hectares, they are also proposing adding 12,400 hectares to Section 4? A net gain.

This whole thing should be considered carefully. It should be thought out a lot more than the current media beatup and the mish-mash from our resident Labour / Green party supporters. And those who support the government should keep them honest so they don't fuck with our green image or touch areas that are best preserved. Like Great Barrier.

The document also covers standardising on rules and regulations around this, ensuring that any applications go through a uniform process, etc. This all seems sensible. And the removal from Section 4 does not translate to "mined the fuck out". It means that applications for investigation and exploration will be considered on a case by case basis. Where they are looking to standardise the rules.

But best of all? From March 2010 to May 2010 you get to have your say. Refer to page 36 onwards. It gives you options on how to handle your submission to the process.

Honestly Pascal... I'm pretty much done on the subject... The only sensible reason to go mining is to create jobs... Unfortunately mines don't last forever and leave scars behind them that aren't just land based... but noone cares because it won't affect them... it's just another short term strategy to generate income for people and swell the govt coffers, line a few pockets, create a community etc... that's the idea and a good one at that... on the face of it yes, IF that's what you expect of your government... I happen to think there are more pressing issues than money and giving people short term "secure" jobs... I expect more from my government... there are other ways to level the playing field... but that would make everyone rich and not just the select few and that just can't be allowed to happen apparantly... government for the people my arse... mining is just another side show... yes I buy into it under the premise that one person may read something that convinces them that dishonest governments are nothing but legalised thieves... and that tomorrow, someone else might "change" their stance... now people being forced into labor to earn money to live sounds very much like slavery to me... Maybe it's just a bad hair day lol...

[Pascal]

there are other ways to level the playing field... but that would make everyone rich and not just the select few <SNIP> now people being forced into labor to earn money to live sounds very much like slavery to me

I'm trying to understand what you've written, but those two snippets keep on getting in the way. Maybe tomorrow will be a better hair day.

[Quasievil]

You obviously missed the bit that mining might take a few years to get going (no InstaMine!). And there's an election next year, when hopefully the country will wake up from it's bout of temporary insanity and kick these useless, lying, bastards to touch.

Just a Note, Phil Goof caught lying today about his trip to Great Barrier to preach to the lifestyle dole bludgers, he said the plane was chartered and the media paid there own way, this was not the case.........they where invited no charge for the grandstanding media show.

What you say to that?

another point Under Labour rule (the word"rule" used correctly) 218 consents where given to mine in conservation land........what you say to that? or specifically the Pike coal Mine which is in a National Park, that was labours work.

your turn

[Quasievil]

The only sensible reason to go mining is to create jobs...

ummmm and this is bad how??


it's just another short term strategy to generate income for people and swell the govt coffers, line a few pockets, create a community etc... that's the idea and a good one at that... on the face of it yes,

Errrr Yeah and whats the point?


that's what you expect of your government... I happen to think there are more pressing issues than money and giving people short term "secure" jobs... I expect more from my government...

Where do you get short term from, Huntly ,Waihi (my local mines) have been there for years and year and have whole communities built around them sustaining them and their families, how is this bad?
What did you expect from your government.......Im intrigued


are other ways to level the playing field... but that would make everyone rich and not just the select few and that just can't be allowed to happen apparantly

Like what ??


for the people my arse... mining is just another side show... yes I buy into it under the premise that one person may read something that convinces them that dishonest governments are nothing but legalised thieves...

Hardly fair, they need to make the coin to pay for a squillion things, not least of all Labour voting lifestyle bludgers.
Sideshow?? you shitting me, have you been to Australia lately Im fairly sure they have a massive industry around mining not to mention a very significant population employed in it.
Mining is a viable and good industry, managed correctly its a winner for NZ


and that tomorrow, someone else might "change" their stance... now people being forced into labor to earn money to live sounds very much like slavery to me... Maybe it's just a bad hair day lol...

Forced into Labour ??

Oh dear Mashman

[Skyryder]

You can come up with all the reasons why mining should take place. I can only come up with one.

This land was set aside in 'perpertuity' so that it would remain in its pristine state for New Zealanders to enjoy and appreciate now and in the future.

Key sees NZ as a resource to be exploited with little regard to the values that our National Parks demonstrate to the uniqueness of New Zealand

Skyryder

[Quasievil]

You can come up with all the reasons why mining should take place. I can only come up with one.

This land was set aside in 'perpertuity' so that it would remain in its pristine state for New Zealanders to enjoy and appreciate now and in the future.

Key sees NZ as a resource to be exploited with little regard to the values that our National Parks demonstrate to the uniqueness of New Zealand

Skyryder

So did Helen, 218 consents given in conservation land

And NZ is a resource thats why we came here, nothing wrong with using the resource appropriately and carefully, if its done right big deal

Following C n P from
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2010/03/mining_under_labour.html

Mining under Labour

Quoting a release from Gerry Brownlee:

Labour’s hypocrisy over mining has been laid bare, says Energy and Resources Minister Gerry Brownlee, after new figures released by Crown Minerals today showed Labour approved more than 200 permits for mining on the Conservation Estate.

“This from the party that launched a campaign yesterday saying it was explicitly opposed to mining conservation areas – not just Schedule Four land, but conservation land full stop,” Mr Brownlee said.

Labour’s pledge of opposition to mining on conservation land is similar to their ax the tax campaign.

200 permits in just nine years!

“But if that wasn’t enough, we also have the release today of information that Labour approved a mining consent on land considered special enough to warrant Schedule Four status, the very behaviour Phil Goff has been decrying as unthinkable.

“It turns out Labour approved a permit in 2006 for mining gold, garnets and other gemstones on 168.5 hectares of land at Hart Creek, inside Paparoa National Park.

And they mined national parks.

“The information shows Labour were happy for mining to take place on 21,961 hectares of land, meanwhile the government is seeking approval to release a mere 7,058 hectares of Schedule Four land, of which as little as 500 hectares might be mined,” Mr Brownlee said.

My view is that mining applications should be decided on a case by case basis – as both Labour and National have done in the past. Economic benefits need to be weighed up against conservation value for each site.

Figures released by Crown Minerals [attached] show 218 permits were approved under a Labour government for mining inside Department of Conservation land between December 1999 and October 2008.

That is an average of one permit every fortnight was issued under Labour for mining on conservation land. I repeat one permit every fortnight.

[T.W.R]

Where do you get short term from, Huntly ,Waihi (my local mines) have been there for years and year and have whole communities built around them sustaining them and their families, how is this bad?


Huntly is opencast coal extraction from the existing underground mines that were there from year dot....that's why most of Huntly east is subsiding because of the underground mine shafts that exist under the town most of the houses east of the main road on the flat land are worth nicks because of the subsidence issues. the opencast area northwest of the town have created disgusting big holes that for the sakes of enviromental issues have been flooded and turned into reserves which coinsidentally took years to get anywhere near sustaining any decent form of life.

a lot of the exisiting mines in operation like Maori Farm 1 & Maori Farm 2, Glenafton etc are disgusting pits that'll take decades to heal if they ever do.

The majority of workers at the Huntly mines aren't local BTW

[avgas]

The only sensible reason to go mining is to create jobs...
Never mind fixing the roads, building generators, maintaining parks, starting eco-commerce............100's of jobs that could be created under a government, all requiring the same skills in the workforce.......
but alas NOTHING gets done here without private enterprise. I feel sorry for wellington's rail - Auckland is getting a good dose of infrastructure.
Do you think the Govt would mine if it wasn't for the money grabbing private firms?

[avgas]

Quasi just because something was done in the past - does not make it right.
How would you like it if you weren't able to import your motorbike gear?
Every day something changes, the thing is to hedge your bets on the "good for all changes" not the "good for some".
AE are realising this now, and trying to build an empire as a holiday destination. We should do the same.
Leave the gold for our grandkids to mine. But let them have that choice.

[Quasievil]

Never mind fixing the roads, building generators, maintaining parks, starting eco-commerce

Building maintaining etc costs money doesnt it, this would be tax money would it ??? where does Tax money come from Avgas??

How long would it take to equate the revenue generation from a potential Mine operation, probably never Im thinking



you think the Govt would mine if it wasn't for the money grabbing private firms?

Sheesh, ya see this sort of crap is the problem, dude get the chip of your shoulder and understand how your wages are paid?

Do you think that private firms shouldnt be out to get as much income as possible??? do you think they should aspire to only make minimal income??

are you a member of the communist party or the greens ??
(said in gest dude)

[Quasievil]

Leave the gold for our grandkids to mine. But let them have that choice.

Dude, they would have got sick of paying for the dole bludgers and the ageing population and will be living overseas

[Skyryder]

So did Helen, 218 consents given in conservation land

And NZ is a resource thats why we came here, nothing wrong with using the resource appropriately and carefully, if its done right big deal

Following C n P from
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2010/03/mining_under_labour.html

Mining under Labour

Quoting a release from Gerry Brownlee:

Labour’s hypocrisy over mining has been laid bare, says Energy and Resources Minister Gerry Brownlee, after new figures released by Crown Minerals today showed Labour approved more than 200 permits for mining on the Conservation Estate.

“This from the party that launched a campaign yesterday saying it was explicitly opposed to mining conservation areas – not just Schedule Four land, but conservation land full stop,” Mr Brownlee said.

Labour’s pledge of opposition to mining on conservation land is similar to their ax the tax campaign.

200 permits in just nine years!

“But if that wasn’t enough, we also have the release today of information that Labour approved a mining consent on land considered special enough to warrant Schedule Four status, the very behaviour Phil Goff has been decrying as unthinkable.

“It turns out Labour approved a permit in 2006 for mining gold, garnets and other gemstones on 168.5 hectares of land at Hart Creek, inside Paparoa National Park.

And they mined national parks.

“The information shows Labour were happy for mining to take place on 21,961 hectares of land, meanwhile the government is seeking approval to release a mere 7,058 hectares of Schedule Four land, of which as little as 500 hectares might be mined,” Mr Brownlee said.

My view is that mining applications should be decided on a case by case basis – as both Labour and National have done in the past. Economic benefits need to be weighed up against conservation value for each site.

Figures released by Crown Minerals [attached] show 218 permits were approved under a Labour government for mining inside Department of Conservation land between December 1999 and October 2008.

That is an average of one permit every fortnight was issued under Labour for mining on conservation land. I repeat one permit every fortnight.


So what makes you bthink I agree with what labour has done. And why has this not come to light when the Nats were in oposition. There is a lot of what Labour has done that I do not agree with.....................however I am not aware that they have downgraded schedule 4 land. The best that Brownlee can come up with is that Labour allowed mining on land considered special enough for scheule 4. A bit different from what National is proposing. But still not good.

As for Brownlee he seems to be changing his mind on value every minute so I have little faith in anything this man says




Skyryder

[mashman]

ummmm and this is bad how??
Errrr Yeah and whats the point?
What did you expect from your government.......Im intrigued
Like what ??

Sideshow?? you shitting me, have you been to Australia lately Im fairly sure they have a massive industry around mining not to mention a very significant population employed in it.
Mining is a viable and good industry, managed correctly its a winner for NZ

Forced into Labour ??

Oh dear Mashman

I can't post what i want to post. It'd be one of those endless 'hippyish, Reds, Blues posts, life, crime, think about everything bad that money does to people etc...' posts.

But can you answer 1 question for me please. "Im tempted just to go all wooooooo and mysterious just for shits and giggles cause I'm laughin my ass off typing this.", What's the answer to this equation... LIFE - FINANCIAL SYSTEM = ????. Give it some thought... and here are your project guidelines: you have 1 generation (20 years) to train and educate the population to not only be productive, but to also generate enough exports to be able to support itself on the open market. But you must remove any traces of a financial system within the first 2 years... remember the force is with you, you have no financial system.

Could you do it? I'd start by not worrying too much about crime after the initial burst of those who don't understand it... but you do have 2 years. (ok, so the 2 years is for shits and giggles - 2012 etc...)

What do you think, could you do it?

KBers: have at me muuuuwwwwuuuuhahahahahahaaaa... oh yeah, we've evolved too remember

[Quasievil]

I can't post what i want to post. It'd be one of those endless 'hippyish, Reds, Blues posts, life, crime, think about everything bad that money does to people etc...' posts.

But can you answer 1 question for me please. "Im tempted just to go all wooooooo and mysterious just for shits and giggles cause I'm laughin my ass off typing this.", What's the answer to this equation... LIFE - FINANCIAL SYSTEM = ????. Give it some thought... and here are your project guidelines: you have 1 generation (20 years) to train and educate the population to not only be productive, but to also generate enough exports to be able to support itself on the open market. But you must remove any traces of a financial system within the first 2 years... remember the force is with you, you have no financial system.

Could you do it? I'd start by not worrying too much about crime after the initial burst of those who don't understand it... but you do have 2 years. (ok, so the 2 years is for shits and giggles - 2012 etc...)

What do you think, could you do it?

KBers: have at me muuuuwwwwuuuuhahahahahahaaaa... oh yeah, we've evolved too remember


Sheesh who said I had the answers, Im just not interested in blocking revenue into NZ when the basis for it has been noted as minimal invasive "ness" to the environment.
Especially on the basis of labour party supporters on a bagging campaign over anything that aint Labour under the guise of National money grabbers blah blah blah...............boring and stale!!

But It would seem that if youre asking the question you have the answers so lets hear it dude, maybe it could be adopted and we can all live in perfect harmony and the economy will be blessed with your mashmanomices

lol

[T.W.R]

Sheesh who said I had the answers, Im just not interested in blocking revenue into NZ when the basis for it has been noted as minimal invasive "ness" to the environment.


Minimal revenue from major expenditure :yes:
Fresh mines take years to even look like returning a profit and in the interim the outlay is staggering. Even to the point that some mines collapse before any sign of a profit is made. Look at Macraes Gold mine it took over a decade before it looked like making any hint of a profit

[pete376403]

Yeah they are Bro, ever been to Jabiru in the northern territory, I have and its a huge mine smack in the middle of a national park
OK, guess I was wrong about that, then.

And when I said the returns are so small, etc., what I meant was returns for NZ by way of royalties, based on the current regime, not profits for the overseas mining co. (IMHO)

[Quasievil]

Minimal revenue from major expenditure :yes:


If that where actually true, why would mining be such a successful enterprise the world over?
And why would any banker finance it or any shareholder agree to capitalise in the prospecting let alone the mining.

[Pascal]

Key sees NZ as a resource to be exploited with little regard to the values that our National Parks demonstrate to the uniqueness of New Zealand


So what makes you bthink I agree with what labour has done

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.


A bit different from what National is proposing.

So what is National proposing? I'd like to hear it in your own words. Because, judging by what you've written you haven't got a fucking clue.

[Pascal]

here are your project guidelines: you have 1 generation (20 years) to train and educate the population to not only be productive, but to also generate enough exports to be able to support itself on the open market. But you must remove any traces of a financial system within the first 2 years... remember the force is with you, you have no financial system.

Could you do it? I'd start by not worrying too much about crime after the initial burst of those who don't understand it... but you do have 2 years. (ok, so the 2 years is for shits and giggles - 2012 etc...)

What do you think, could you do it?

I'm still waiting for you to explain to me, in your perfect system, how we'd decide who has to ride a Honda and who gets an Aprillia. Or a Moto Guzzi.

[T.W.R]

If that where actually true, why would mining be such a successful enterprise the world over?
And why would any banker finance it or any shareholder agree to capitalise in the prospecting let alone the mining.

Because of long term returns, investors are fuelled by greed. Mining companies aren't that successful, many go broke before they even look like making profits, most are like mortgages only just staying afloat. The majority of large and what looks like successful mining companies only operate on the very fringe of the plus side of making profits. It only due to the huge amounts of money involved that they keep operating. The figures involved are mainly just magic figures written on paper. the high percentage of mines around the world are only operated by a handful of companies.

[Sach]

Sach I like you, and don't feel for a moment that I am bashing the mining companies or their employees. Fact of the matter is that I grew up around various mining sites - So I have full respect for all who deal with underground mining. In fact if it wasn't for the strong employment rates and GOOD employment that the mines offer I would be against it.
Currently under Waihi are Tomo's the size of small mountains, which thanks to dewatering have caused the ground to be unstable. This is why you have a nice fenced off section of the town. I only feel bitter about this as I loved Waihi as the little town it is, and I fear than when Newmont pull out - the town will slowly die.
.

yeah there are tunnels from the gold mining days when Back filling didn't happen. and yeah this is a bad things that has happened but also look at all the good things that have happened. As a small girl i would come to Waihi beach and Waihi was a place you would blink and miss it. Now it is alive people have jobs... They say we have more people on the dole than Paeroa but i think its a case of having more people who will not work. the mine emplots a huge amount of people and then all the off spins from that. There are things in place for when newmont leaves but i don't think they will have a capacity for employment as the mine...

i guess it is a wait and see as the schedule 4 only opens it up for exploration not mining as such....

[Pixie]

you're an amusing twat....

I guess when all the straws are gone,some infants resort to red bling:rofl:

[Quasievil]

Because of long term returns, investors are fuelled by greed. Mining companies aren't that successful, many go broke before they even look like making profits, most are like mortgages only just staying afloat. The majority of large and what looks like successful mining companies only operate on the very fringe of the plus side of making profits. It only due to the huge amounts of money involved that they keep operating. The figures involved are mainly just magic figures written on paper. the high percentage of mines around the world are only operated by a handful of companies.

Cheers for the reply TWR but sorry dude but what a load of bullshit lol

[T.W.R]

Cheers for the reply TWR but sorry dude but what a load of bullshit lol

Worked for a mining company have you????

[T.W.R]

I guess when all the straws are gone,some infants resort to red bling:rofl:

Infants winge about it :finger:

[Quasievil]

Worked for a mining company have you????

I work for Mobil so yes I do, im fairly sure they make a fairly decent profit every year

If you have therefore you are an expert on profitability of mines generally.
So put your experience on the table if you want to be viewed as a expert on the subject.

[T.W.R]

I work for Mobil so yes I do, im fairly sure they make a fairly decent profit every year

If you have therefore you are an expert on profitability of mines generally.
So put your experience on the table if you want to be viewed as a expert on the subject.

You obviously missed the 1st post where I quoted you about Huntly.

if you worked for Mobil then you'd know in mining operations the actual work is tendered out over a set time period to keep overheads to a minimum. And I bet you were a pen pusher not actually getting your hands dirty at the coalface (so to speak).

And to add: it's funny how you didn't retort to that post or dismiss what is actually happening at Huntly

[Tank]

Now this is hilarious (about labour) from Kiwi blog this morning:

Quoting a release from Gerry Brownlee:

Labour’s hypocrisy over mining has been laid bare, says Energy and Resources Minister Gerry Brownlee, after new figures released by Crown Minerals today showed Labour approved more than 200 permits for mining on the Conservation Estate.

“This from the party that launched a campaign yesterday saying it was explicitly opposed to mining conservation areas – not just Schedule Four land, but conservation land full stop,” Mr Brownlee said.

Labour’s pledge of opposition to mining on conservation land is similar to their ax the tax campaign.

200 permits in just nine years!

“But if that wasn’t enough, we also have the release today of information that Labour approved a mining consent on land considered special enough to warrant Schedule Four status, the very behaviour Phil Goff has been decrying as unthinkable.

“It turns out Labour approved a permit in 2006 for mining gold, garnets and other gemstones on 168.5 hectares of land at Hart Creek, inside Paparoa National Park.

And they mined national parks.

“The information shows Labour were happy for mining to take place on 21,961 hectares of land, meanwhile the government is seeking approval to release a mere 7,058 hectares of Schedule Four land, of which as little as 500 hectares might be mined,” Mr Brownlee said.

My view is that mining applications should be decided on a case by case basis – as both Labour and National have done in the past. Economic benefits need to be weighed up against conservation value for each site.

Figures released by Crown Minerals [attached] show 218 permits were approved under a Labour government for mining inside Department of Conservation land between December 1999 and October 2008.

That is an average of one permit every fortnight was issued under Labour for mining on conservation land. I repeat one permit every fortnight.

a big case of pandering to the public with nothing to back it up again!!!!

[Quasievil]

You obviously missed the 1st post where I quoted you about Huntly.

if you worked for Mobil then you'd know in mining operations the actual work is tendered out over a set time period to keep overheads to a minimum

Yes I forgot that you worked at Huntly, thats fine and certainly Im not baiting your credibility in "whatever" capacity you where employed under, but I dont understand how you can say that mines are unprofitable as a general comment when clearly (based on international successful operations) they are profitable, look at Australia for example its a major revenue source for them.

At this stage of the debate we dont know locations/operations/ore type/processes or basically anything really so Im not willing to agree that that its not going to be a profitable exercise.

just regarding the long term thing i.e. that we wont see any benefits for years I except this, but thats fine as Im not sure a "fast quick buck option" exists .......sadly!!

Yes I still work for Mobil, but Im not privy to the upstream side of the business ;-)

[T.W.R]

but I dont understand how you can say that mines are unprofitable as a general comment when clearly (based on international successful operations) they are profitable, look at Australia for example its a major revenue source for them.

At this stage of the debate we dont know locations/operations/ore type/processes or basically anything really so Im not willing to agree that that its not going to be a profitable exercise.

just regarding the long term thing i.e. that we wont see any benefits for years I except this, but thats fine as Im not sure a "fast quick buck option" exists .......sadly!!



I didn't & haven't said that mines aren't profitable, just that the profit margin is minimal and as you say in the last sentence they wont see benefits for many years. There isn't & never will be fast buck options ever...there's far to much involved to even get a simple small scale mine operational let alone a large scale operation.
Operations like Australia are huge by comparison to NZ and took decades to get to that scale and it was only once they got to that scale that they made the impact on the countries revenue but even that is small by comparison to where the minerals & ore finally end up.

[Quasievil]

I didn't & haven't said that mines aren't profitable, just that the profit margin is minimal and as you say in the last sentence they wont see benefits for many years. There isn't & never will be fast buck options ever...there's far to much involved to even get a simple small scale mine operational let alone a large scale operation.
Operations like Australia are huge by comparison to NZ and took decades to get to that scale and it was only once they got to that scale that they made the impact on the countries revenue but even that is small by comparison to where the minerals & ore finally end up.

Ok I understand your comments......cheers, no argument from me, as clearly you have an educated opinion, I dont....not really, I just assumed that if the govt where going to start mining they would do it on the basis of it being of financial bennifits.
If what you say is actual fact (how can anyone know the complete situation and story) I would certainly change my complete argument in its entirety on the basis that whats the point? But like I said how can one know??

[T.W.R]

Ok I understand your comments......cheers, no argument from me, as clearly you have an educated opinion, I dont....not really, I just assumed that if the govt where going to start mining they would do it on the basis of it being of financial bennifits.
If what you say is actual fact (how can anyone know the complete situation and story) I would certainly change my complete argument in its entirety on the basis that whats the point? But like I said how can one know??

I'm no expert on the complete in & outs of the operational systems of the mines. But as history has it here in NZ especially with mines on the westcoast (underground), they were operating at a point the owners thought were profitable and when the margins of profit declined the mines were shut down because the expense was too much, even to the point that going opencast wasn't a process to be considered. Some went so deep they were extracting CHUCKIE rocks which is a very very rare event on a worldwide scale.
The cost involved with starting mines is staggering and by ways of comparison (for example) like the undertaking involved with building sports arenas , they do the groundwork set the budget, get a quote of costs, impliment the building of the arena with a time frame & budget and next thing there's unexpected problems and over the course of that time the budget gets blown out and when the arena is finally operational operates at a loss for a substantial period of time sometimes never returning a profit.
NZ's economy can't afford the loses involved to that scale.....once apon a time maybe they could have but there are too many leeches that bleed the system and they'd bleed the system dry if they could.

[mashman]

So you now understand where I'm coming from "Eutopia" (I'm talking life as we know it, but without a financial system ha ha ha... it'll just be life without a financial system... I don't have all of the answers (but removing money will change society for ever, and I would think we're intelligent enough that that change would probably be for the better for the whole of mankind), but that's what makes us all so unique... we ALL think differently...


ummmm and this is bad how??

Nothing wrong with creating jobs, am all for them, but believe that there are other issues that could use extra human resource before we go digging in the ground... Upgrading the country's infrastructure for 1.


Errrr Yeah and whats the point?
It's a rape and pillage of resources for MONEY. Futile... money makes the world go around... it's also responsible for some of the worst crimes on the planet...


Where do you get short term from, Huntly ,Waihi (my local mines) have been there for years and year and have whole communities built around them sustaining them and their families, how is this bad?

For years and years ONLY... it's not future proofing an industry... let alone a sensible use of resource... somewhere in the future we have to deal with the fallout... isn't that the point of obtaining money, to provide for the future?


What did you expect from your government.......Im intrigued

I expect my government to do what's right for the future of the people, not what's right for the immediate bank balance.


Like what ??

You've seen my question. Like that


Hardly fair, they need to make the coin to pay for a squillion things, not least of all Labour voting lifestyle bludgers.
Sideshow?? you shitting me, have you been to Australia lately Im fairly sure they have a massive industry around mining not to mention a very significant population employed in it.
Mining is a viable and good industry, managed correctly its a winner for NZ

Managed correctly ha ha ha ha... in the current version of life those who enter into the mining enterprise will want their cut. Whilst that seems fair, it's not when you consider the the CEO of a company couldn't actually go and mine the minerals for themselves, it takes rafts and rafts of people, yet they all get paid differently due to experience levels. Why? It's a crock of shit this, I know more than you do, so i'll have more money than you... without the coal face workers, nothing will happen.


Forced into Labour ??

Yes. FORCED... but this is where it gets icky... Changing peoples perceptions. If there's no financial system then you'll have very high unemployment... However, the essentials of life will still to be tended too. As such I would suggest the 5 hour, 4 day a week, week. There should be enough people to fill the positions. Why do it if there's no money involved? We have to eat, drink blah blah blah... for your fellow human... Currently we pay taxes to keep "the bludgers" (they are both rich and poor), why not ask them to partake in society, but at a minimal level for your fellow Kiwi. There is a culture here that wasn't "used" to money not 200 years ago... (shock horror) how did they ever survive without money?


Oh dear Mashman

Yes Quasi darling... was it good for you?

In all honesty I just want to be a stay home Dad... but that's not financially possible and the only way for me to be the stay home Dad, without impacting on the time I spend with my kids, is to win the lottery or be given a very well paid job that let's me work from home... Or for society to change. No Money, next to no Crime... you can't steal to sell, you don't need money to live, you will be fed and watered irrespective, although people like ourselves might look down our noses as it's for the good of the people (we do it now because they won't go out and earn money)...

One thign that's constant, in regards to money, is planning for the future. I got to this point when I was 24, me and my ex at Uni, living in an undesirable place in Glasgow (it was colourful though and the people weren't as bad as painted...) me bouncing doors by night, bowling alleys by day, scrambling down the back of the couch for money for nappies for my son etc... At that point in time I realised that money was a complete fucker... but unfortunately a necessity in our economy... and on occasion these thoughts come streaming back to me, Bikeoi raised them again this time... and pretty much everytime I think about my childrens future... all I can think of is that they are going to be the employee of the government... the way I look at it Quasi, you don't actually own your own business... you lease a franchise from the govt via tax... We're all slaves to a certain extent (it's all in the mind... BOLLOCKS)... we make some money, some steal it, some kill for it, the rich ones just want more of it etc... and on and on... I've dotted as many I's and T's over the years as I can... but there's no point in having this as a theory if PEOPLE LIKE YOU (not a bad thing mate, I almost want to be you) FILE IT IN THE TOO HARD BASKET...

I've thought up potential implmenetation plans, all sorts of disjointed information and thoughts... but people won't discuss it because it'll never happen. The only reason it'll never happen is because people can't let go of the concept of money (lord knows I've tried to convert my wife over the last couple of months... She understands it, but can't get her head around not having money)...

Anyway... yes I believe that it can be done...

As you can tell it's still just a rant... needs a few more minds.

[mashman]

I'm still waiting for you to explain to me, in your perfect system, how we'd decide who has to ride a Honda and who gets an Aprillia. Or a Moto Guzzi.

You can order what you like... You might have to wait though as there's a waiting list and the rocket cycles could be due out any time soon :)

[avgas]

Arrgh I just lost a massive message.
Cant be fucked retyping it. So will end with punchline.

What is definition of "Conservation"?
Like I have said before, I have nothing against mining. But there needs to be a balance - to me if a something is defined by a term. It needs to be assigned all the properties of that term. Otherwise what is the point?

[Pascal]

Like I have said before, I have nothing against mining. But there needs to be a balance - to me if a something is defined by a term. It needs to be assigned all the properties of that term. Otherwise what is the point?

True. This proposal from the government relates to:

(a) Removing 7000 odd hectares from Section 4
(b) Adding 12000 odd hectares to Section 4
(c) Allowing investigation to be determined on a case by case basis on the land
(d) Ensuring there is a consistent procedure for applications to DOC for this
(e) Requesting public submission on the process and what is happening

This is in contrast to, as we now know after our former masters hid this knowledge from us, the 200 odd permits that Labour approved. None of this seems to be quite as contentious as it is being made out. But, media feeding frenzy plus the typical Labour do as we say, not as we do politics have turned it into a right royal mess.

Personally I feel whatever is done needs to be well thought out, documented and have a good period for public submission as well as LISTENING to those public submissions.

[Ixion]

It's a rape and pillage of resources for MONEY. Futile... money makes the world go around... it's also responsible for some of the worst crimes on the planet...

No, it's not. Or, at least, not money for US.

Now, I'm no greenie. So I don't really care too much about the ecology stuff. But the conservation areas are public domain. And they're valuable. So if they get fucked up and become less valuable, then I , as a citizen, have suffered a loss. Just like having a house with a really nice garden. Increases the value of the property. If you then turn the garden into a dump , the property is less valuable. So, I think that mining in the conservation estate must decrease it's value - which is a net loss to ME.

Therefore, if that's going to happen , I expect to see BIG $$ returns (net of all expense) coming back to ME (and all the other people in NZ).

Let's look at what returns we, the people of NZ are going to get out of this.

I've seen figures quoted of 15 grams of gold per truckload. That's about half an ounce, roughly worth $500. So, for a million dollars worth of mineral, they have to cart 2000 truckloads of ore to the processing plant. And cart the 2000 truckloads (less the 15grams) back away again. That's 4000 truck movements in the Coromandel per year. (Won't that be fun)

But, it's very unlikley that the mining areas will be handy beside an existing road. So, to provide access we, the taxpayer, will be expected to put in new roads. At how many millions of dollars ?

And that 2000 truckloads is going to leave a big hole. At, say, 6 cu mtrs per truck, that's 12000 cu mtr. Say, a hole, very roughly, 12 foot deep and 200 foot across. (or narrower, but deeper)

So, we have : a net LOSS to me of an unknown value , but many many millions across the whole population, because of the mess the mining companies always leave when they pull out. Either the value of the conservation estate is reduced by millions or we (the taxpayer) have to pay millions to clean it up.

We (the taxpayer) have to pay more millions to cover the cost of new roads and/or more damage to the existing ones (4000 truckloads a year remember) .

We have an unquantified loss due to reduced tourism . Dunno how to measure that so I'll ignore it.

OK. That's the downside of every million dollars worth of mineral wealth. So what's the upside to ME and the other NZ citizens (I don't care about profits for overseas corporations).

Gee. We get 1% of the million. A massive $10000 per year. Woopy doo.

And some jobs. How many? Well 4000 trucktrips at half an hour a trip, 2000 hours a year. That's about a man year (on a 40 hour week basis) . So, one job.

And another job for someone to run the digger.

And I guess a manager or clerical person.

And one to run the processing plant. Total of maybe 4 jobs max. As someone noted, mining isn't a labour intensive industry.

If those 4 were all on the dole (about $12000 a year ? Summit like that). That $48000 per year.

Total value to NZ. $10000 plus $48000 . $580000.

Sure, these are wild approximations. And the mining companies are talking billions not millions. Which means more revenue, more jobs, but also means more expense , more mess. So the overall value equation remains the same

This has to be the biggest rort proposed since the original guys arrived offering sensational deals on muskets and bblankets

We pay millions , to get back $58000.

The only people who benefit are the overseas corporatiuons.

Bugger the ecology. it's a ripoff and I oppose it on that basis.

[MisterD]

Slightly O/T, but the buy-out of dairy farms by Chinese interests came up a while ago:

Cactus Kate on the dubious nature of that (http://asianinvasion2006.blogspot.com/2010/03/may-yan-wang.html)

[Quasievil]

Ive decided this thread is made up of to many assumptions, we dont know what the details are so kinda whats the point.

Good discussions tho guys pros and cons all good !!

Ave a loverly day

oh Mashman...........yeah baby it twas good for me ;-)

[Winston001]

The returns of the proposed "keyhole-surgery" type mining are so small there's really no point. Australia gets the big returns because they go for digging up the country and shipping it to China, India and New Zealand (Queensland bauxite to Comalco) on an enormous scale. But I'll bet they aren't doing it in their National Parks

I agree about the proposed NZ mining - its unlikely to provide a huge boom. However the recent Labour govt approved mining in various conservation areas (eg. Pike River) so we have done this already.

As for Oz, they have plenty of mining in national parks. The Australian Alps and especially uranium in Kakadu National Park.

[Winston001]

The interesting thing about this thread is the passion expressed by both sides. Good to see. Actually I think we are all on the same page - nobody wants open-cast devastation of our conservation land. We all value it.

Where we differ is about undertaking a measurement of the locked up mineral potential. Some think that's worth doing (it's happened under the previous govt) and others say No Way. I tend to believe the potential isn't worth the effort - but might be wrong.

As for the international corporates ripping off NZ, that's not a runner. If it was true Australia would be poorer than us and all their mining wealth would be in the hands of lucky American, European, and Chinese investors. I should also point out that the Pike River coal mine (on conservation land) is owned by NZ Oil and Gas, a NZ company.

I do wonder however why our govt can't undertake mining itself if there is a significant opportunity. For example Solid Energy is wholly owned by our govt and is a major coal miner. Any reason Solid Energy can't mine for copper, tungsten, tin, zinc and rare earth elements if they do exist in Kahurangi National Park?

[Ixion]

The interesting thing about this thread is the passion expressed by both sides. Good to see. Actually I think we are all on the same page - nobody wants open-cast devastation of our conservation land. We all value it.

Where we differ is about undertaking a measurement of the locked up mineral potential. Some think that's worth doing (it's happened under the previous govt) and others say No Way. I tend to believe the potential isn't worth the effort - but might be wrong.

As for the international corporates ripping off NZ, that's not a runner. If it was true Australia would be poorer than us and all their mining wealth would be in the hands of lucky American, European, and Chinese investors. I should also point out that the Pike River coal mine (on conservation land) is owned by NZ Oil and Gas, a NZ company.

I do wonder however why our govt can't undertake mining itself if there is a significant opportunity. For example Solid Energy is wholly owned by our govt and is a major coal miner. Any reason Solid Energy can't mine for copper, tungsten, tin, zinc and rare earth elements if they do exist in Kahurangi National Park?

BHP, and other major Australian mineral exploiters are AUSTRALIAN companys. So the value stays in the country. The remedy for NZ is that which you mention. If mining is to be done let it be done by a NZ company , preferably by the NZ government (the latter being more accountable to the public than any private company) . That way we get all the value of the minerals instead of a 1% gesture.

[mashman]

I think one thing you have to add into your opinions are the sizes of Austrailiiaalaia, Oz, however it's spelled... How many New Zealands can you fit inside of Oz, answer, many more New Zealands? They already have 20 million people... factor that in would ya. Hardly surprising they're in such a position with the strength of their banks etc... It's different here.

[rwh]

It's a rape and pillage of resources for MONEY. Futile... money makes the world go around... it's also responsible for some of the worst crimes on the planet...


I think it's the greed, not the money, you want to pin the blame on there. Money is merely a convenient way to trade, without people having to find people who have what they want and want what they have. Hmm, too many pronouns. If I have milk and want meat, and you have meat and want vegetables, and someone else has vegetables and wants milk, any bartering arrangement will have to get a bit complex. Much worse if some of what we want is only available by importing it.

I think there might well be parts of the financial system we'd be better off without, but not money in general. Just IMHO.


I've thought up potential implmenetation plans, all sorts of disjointed information and thoughts... but people won't discuss it because it'll never happen. The only reason it'll never happen is because people can't let go of the concept of money (lord knows I've tried to convert my wife over the last couple of months... She understands it, but can't get her head around not having money)...

Anyway... yes I believe that it can be done...

As you can tell it's still just a rant... needs a few more minds.

I know what you mean about disjointed thoughts ... definitely worth working on them though. I don't spend enough time on that myself.

Richard

[oldrider]

The interesting thing about this thread is the passion expressed by both sides. Good to see. Actually I think we are all on the same page - nobody wants open-cast devastation of our conservation land. We all value it.

Where we differ is about undertaking a measurement of the locked up mineral potential. Some think that's worth doing (it's happened under the previous govt) and others say No Way. I tend to believe the potential isn't worth the effort - but might be wrong.

As for the international corporates ripping off NZ, that's not a runner. If it was true Australia would be poorer than us and all their mining wealth would be in the hands of lucky American, European, and Chinese investors. I should also point out that the Pike River coal mine (on conservation land) is owned by NZ Oil and Gas, a NZ company.

I do wonder however why our govt can't undertake mining itself if there is a significant opportunity. For example Solid Energy is wholly owned by our govt and is a major coal miner. Any reason Solid Energy can't mine for copper, tungsten, tin, zinc and rare earth elements if they do exist in Kahurangi National Park?

"Because we don't know", I believe we should find out, then make decisions on the "facts"

That's the whole big rub isn't it!

Socialists believe it the sole prerogative of "Big Government".

Capitalists believe it is the domain of private enterprise "Big Business".

New Zealand is a socialist country and most of the electorate believe in "Big Government", collective responsibility and appear happy with goals of mediocrity!

New Zealand's major growth industry is crime and our youth are constantly being shown that those who commit the crimes will get the rewards, while those who work hard and pay their taxes, get to pay for it! :mellow:

Natural wealth laying dormant in the ground while media concentrate on trivia and the chirping of bird watchers and tree huggers distorting the truth with every warble! :sick:

Why do I have this sinking feeling every time I look towards the future of this country! :slap:

[mashman]

"C" will be laughing their socks of...

[T.W.R]

I do wonder however why our govt can't undertake mining itself if there is a significant opportunity. For example Solid Energy is wholly owned by our govt and is a major coal miner. Any reason Solid Energy can't mine for copper, tungsten, tin, zinc and rare earth elements if they do exist in Kahurangi National Park?

Because Solid Energy don't mine they contract the work out to Mining companies via tender :yes: the expense of setting up an operation with machinery and all the support systems for the machinery is too expensive.

[mashman]

Because Solid Energy don't mine they contract the work out to Mining companies via tender :yes: the expense of setting up an operation with machinery and all the support systems for the machinery is too expensive.

Unless, because you're a HUGE mining company, you can just bring your own gear across the Taz?

[Skyryder]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.



So what is National proposing? I'd like to hear it in your own words. Because, judging by what you've written you haven't got a fucking clue.

I thought it was opening up scheule 4 land for mining. so if I'm wrong.......enlighten me.

Skyryder.

[Sach]

No, it's not. Or, at least, not money for US.



I've seen figures quoted of 15 grams of gold per truckload. That's about half an ounce, roughly worth $500. So, for a million dollars worth of mineral, they have to cart 2000 truckloads of ore to the processing plant. And cart the 2000 truckloads (less the 15grams) back away again. That's 4000 truck movements in the Coromandel per year. (Won't that be fun)

But, it's very unlikley that the mining areas will be handy beside an existing road. So, to provide access we, the taxpayer, will be expected to put in new roads. At how many millions of dollars ?

And that 2000 truckloads is going to leave a big hole. At, say, 6 cu mtrs per truck, that's 12000 cu mtr. Say, a hole, very roughly, 12 foot deep and 200 foot across. (or narrower, but deeper)

So, we have : a net LOSS to me of an unknown value , but many many millions across the whole population, because of the mess the mining companies always leave when they pull out. Either the value of the conservation estate is reduced by millions or we (the taxpayer) have to pay millions to clean it up.

We (the taxpayer) have to pay more millions to cover the cost of new roads and/or more damage to the existing ones (4000 truckloads a year remember) .

We have an unquantified loss due to reduced tourism . Dunno how to measure that so I'll ignore it.

OK. That's the downside of every million dollars worth of mineral wealth. So what's the upside to ME and the other NZ citizens (I don't care about profits for overseas corporations).

Gee. We get 1% of the million. A massive $10000 per year. Woopy doo.

And some jobs. How many? Well 4000 trucktrips at half an hour a trip, 2000 hours a year. That's about a man year (on a 40 hour week basis) . So, one job.

And another job for someone to run the digger.

And I guess a manager or clerical person.

And one to run the processing plant. Total of maybe 4 jobs max. As someone noted, mining isn't a labour intensive industry.

If those 4 were all on the dole (about $12000 a year ? Summit like that). That $48000 per year.

Total value to NZ. $10000 plus $48000 . $580000.

Sure, these are wild approximations. And the mining companies are talking billions not millions. Which means more revenue, more jobs, but also means more expense , more mess. So the overall value equation remains the same

This has to be the biggest rort proposed since the original guys arrived offering sensational deals on muskets and bblankets

We pay millions , to get back $58000.

The only people who benefit are the overseas corporatiuons.

Bugger the ecology. it's a ripoff and I oppose it on that basis.

So, I don't know where you got those numbers...

This is what we have here in Waihi

per 100 tonne of Ore there is approx 9 troy oz gold and 90-100 troy oz silver. This works out to nearly 40 k per 100 tonne

each week they proccess approx 750 tonnes of ore


Newmont employs 350 directly in Waihi and for each person employed there is the same number indirectly employed in service and support industries like engineering, landscaping, property management, security, heath and safety and other related industries like housing, reail stores, education and healthcare.

If these people were not living nad working here- these services would not be needed!

193.7 milllion made last year of that 91 % stays in NZ- so not a big profit for Newmont

[Sach]

I thought it was opening up scheule 4 land for mining. so if I'm wrong.......enlighten me.

Skyryder.

they are opening it for exploration

[Skyryder]

Bullshit! the NZ heritage is that of harvesting whale oil to provide fuel, cutting down forests to create farms,Damming rivers to create power,Mining any viable mineral to create wealth,building railways,roads and ports to transport all this.
Study your history,not rewrite you own version

Take a look at the tourist industry and their ad campaigns................they are all about our heritage and values of the NZ environment.

It's the clean Green image that we spendso much to present.


Skyyrder

[cave weta]

So don't know where you got those numbers...

This is what we have here

per 100 toone of Ore there is approx 9 toz gold and 90-100 oz silver works out to nearly 40 k per 100 toone

to process it is 1.5 miliion per oz so a million profit per oz approx


employs directly 350 in Waihi and per one person employed in indirectly employs another.

193.7 milllion made last year of that 91 % stays in NZ- so not a big profit for Newmont

Sach.... Ixion is a grumpy cynical old bastard and if you are going to argue with him ( although I know you are dead right with your figures) You had better sharpen your pencil and your wit and clean up your post so that it is readable so that you dont get shot down by Ixion! what you have to say is valid and correct - but scruffy and hard to read.



Sach and I are two of hundreds here that are indiectly employed by the mine. this town is riding the crest of a financial wave because of that mine. 15 years ago Waihi was like Mangatawhiri, Pokeno, Mercer, Mangakino, Mangaweka, Whangamomona all are now. the mine has given people jobs, opened new businesses, built houses, supported schools and expanded social services.

[Skyryder]

they are opening it for exploration



Brownlee has already given mixed figures on the value of the resource. No mining company is going to go into this without doing their homework. The bottomline on this is the that Key and Brownlle are offering some of th most pristine areas of NZ to mining companies to mine.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2010/03/26/1247f8cba468


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

More tomfoolery from Brownlee

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10634219

This guy needs to engage his brain before making these sort of comments.

And further feedback to the Economist

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10634022


Skyryder

[T.W.R]

Unless, because you're a HUGE mining company, you can just bring your own gear across the Taz?

The majority of Mining companies don't own their equipment, they're either leased or on hire. The state of earthmoving equipment brand new sales is very low.
When I was working at Huntly only a small amount of the machines operated by Baker Mining Ltd were actually owned by them, they inturn were working under Coalcorp and had won the contract at that time. They sub contracted to other earthmoving contractors with machinery that they didn't have themselves.
Their biggest purchase of equipment was the Hitachi face shovel that Doug Hood had purchased brand new when they had the contract (they'd used it for 9mths then parked it up). The shovel sat unused for nearly 2yrs before baker purchased it because it took them that long to have the cash to purchase it....unfortunately they'd under estimated it's operating capacity and even with 5 terex dumpers working soley with it they couldn't keep up (they had a 90ton carry capacity each) so Baker had to turn around and lease 4 Komatsu 120ton dumpers from overseas to work with the Hitachi. So due to production demands they'd set themselves to operate at a loss for a substantial amount of the contract term. Even just the basic operating conditions of the Hitachi were a huge expense...... a workshop built on site soley for it, a fuel tanker/trailer unit on site for it ( it used 900lt of diesel each 12hr shift) & a crew of 7 per shift for that one machine not counting the dumper drivers either.

[mashman]

:gob: ...... what ever happened to a pick and shovel eh?

That's what worries me about these things... the lack of a plan. Someone with noble intentions would have pretty pictures of what would be left, when mining finishes... Perhaps the worlds largest covered water slide around the mine (that'd be fun), the biggest drop slide (that really could be fun)? who knows... but we have to realise that in order to do what they want, they have to sweeten the deal. If it was me I'd leave the place like a gigantic water theme park with glass pool levels from pit top to bottom (hey, i can dream if i like)... and covered. The community will need something quite spectacular to survive the mining when it stops in 10 - 20, 50 years.

Interesting information though... Cheers

[pete376403]

So don't know where you got those numbers...
193.7 milllion made last year of that 91 % stays in NZ- so not a big profit for Newmont

Thats an interesting number, too. Can you show where this comes from?

[rwh]

"Because we don't know", I believe we should find out, then make decisions on the "facts"


It would be a very different world if we could do that whenever we wanted. We have to make decisions all the time based on what we think is going to happen. So we need to modify that slightly, by not only thinking about the probabilities of what will happen, but what the consequences are either way. Eg it's probable I could survive a ride to Auckland in 5 hours, but the consequences of failure are too severe, so I don't attempt it.

Given the mining industry's record of cleaning up when they've finished (or operating cleanly in the first place), and what the results can be like if they don't, that comes down pretty heavily on the don't risk it side for me.

Especially when you consider that if you leave it in the ground, you haven't lost it - you can always come back to it when techniques are better and more proven, and the prices are higher ... and you've got more evidence of what can go wrong, so you can be clearer in your predictions. That means you still might decide not to go ahead, but if that is based on evidence that it will be catastrophic, then it's a good thing we never did, right?

Richard

[Winston001]

Given the mining industry's record of cleaning up when they've finished (or operating cleanly in the first place), and what the results can be like if they don't, that comes down pretty heavily on the don't risk it side for me.

Especially when you consider that if you leave it in the ground, you haven't lost it - you can always come back to it when techniques are better and more proven, and the prices are higher ....



Right on. I completely agree.

I'm all for growing our economy so we can afford great education and strong healthcare etc but mining in our national parks......the price and risk is too high. Forget it.

[oldrider]

Yes but technology is so much better today and methods are so much improved that in many cases you can't even tell they have been there!

In fact I can take you to places where the area is much better than before the mining was there!

[SS90]

While I applaud some of Nationals legislature, (some, I said some), this sort of nonsense is unbelievable.

We have a PM who has the nickname "the smiling assassin" when he worked for international firms, and his cabnet clearly are all the same.

I really only need two more pieces of information (other than an environmental impact report) to form an opinion on if this is a good idea or not.

1) NZ is stuggling economically. Is this a measure designed ONLY to bring some international (asian) investment capital in

or

2) Members of parliament stand to benefit from such an operation, like, for example, does any memeber of parliament supporting this bill stand to benefit from a mining operation in NZ?

I just can't shake the feeling that now that National is in power, and, the majority of the cabinet are "self made" capitalists, and don't need the income the government job gives them.......how can they justify going against what the public want.

Aynway, screw international buggers coning over here and taking our minerals (paying us only royalties, and nothing more), before sending them back to us as toasters etc.

If there is clear scientific evidence that NZ can handle such an operation, make it am SOE, employ some Kiwi's (managerial as well as workers), and keep all the profits in NZ, like the Aussie's do with their iron ore mines..........

International companies can buy or minerals, but they pay retail.

[Sach]

Sach.... Ixion is a grumpy cynical old bastard and if you are going to argue with him ( although I know you are dead right with your figures) You had better sharpen your pencil and your wit and clean up your post so that it is readable so that you dont get shot down by Ixion! what you have to say is valid and correct - but scruffy and hard to read.



Sach and I are two of hundreds here that are indiectly employed by the mine. this town is riding the crest of a financial wave because of that mine. 15 years ago Waihi was like Mangatawhiri, Pokeno, Mercer, Mangakino, Mangaweka, Whangamomona all are now. the mine has given people jobs, opened new businesses, built houses, supported schools and expanded social services.

cheers Stu i think i just gonna leave it, i wrote that after far to many beers last night lol... people should just come and see what the mine has done for Waihi and what they will leave behind when they do go before they rant and rave... its not all doom thats for sure like cave weta said they have done so much for Waihi and i hope they stay .

[Sach]

Thats an interesting number, too. Can you show where this comes from?

Yip directly from the head of Newmont here in Waihi.. The year before was 188.2 million with 82% staying in NZ. So more money is staying in NZ. Newmont use contractors for alot of the work and will get things done locally . They have planted 585,000 native trees that have been sourced from locals and they give laptops to the schools... the list goes on....

[T.W.R]

Yes but technology is so much better today and methods are so much improved that in many cases you can't even tell they have been there!

In fact I can take you to places where the area is much better than before the mining was there!

.Bollocks!.

[cave weta]

Yes but technology is so much better today and methods are so much improved that in many cases you can't even tell they have been there!

In fact I can take you to places where the area is much better than before the mining was there!

Absolutely OldRider!- Newmont use water from the ohinemuri river and when they return it downstream it is cleaner that where they draw it from. Newmont mine all over the world- The Waihi operation is constantly being visited by foriegn government officials who are invited to talk to our local Environment Waikato and Hauraki District Council with regard to Newmont's environmental and social practices.


.Bollocks!.


T.W.R - you need to step into this centuary and see current mining practices. what the media show is a big ugly hole because it is dramatic and that is what they are after- a spectacular story. The hole is mining history. Newmont's new mine Favona, just out of town as well as Talisman in the Karangahake Gorge and Broken Hills near Tairua- are all very hard to find. Fly over in a helicopter and you will just see a handfull of vehicles parked- if you are lucky.

If you are going to keep posting in this thread- then you should come and havea look for yourself at modern gold and silver mining and at the environmental and social improvements that have happened here in the last 12 years solely because of the Gold mining in this town.

[dipshit]

Minimal revenue from major expenditure. Fresh mines take years to even look like returning a profit and in the interim the outlay is staggering. Even to the point that some mines collapse before any sign of a profit is made. Look at Macraes Gold mine it took over a decade before it looked like making any hint of a profit

What T.W.R says is very true. The money and turnover involved in mining is huge. That doesn't mean to say the profits the company is raking off is as well.

The Macraes mine for example is Shell's second biggest customer of diesel fuel in NZ, second only to TranzRail. The money that changes hands and is pumped into the local economy from the work created and the infrastructure and support that is needed in itself creates a lot of income for the country from the tax collected alone. And that is money into the country generated from selling the gold offshore.

The mining company itself doesn't necessarily have a lot of surplus profit sitting in a bank account for its shareholders though.

[dipshit]

Absolutely OldRider!- Newmont use water from the ohinemuri river and when they return it downstream it is cleaner that where they draw it from.

Agree. There is nothing wrong with the river below Macraes. You can fish in it and a couple of small towns draw their water from it.

Providing of course the tailings dam holds. :shutup:

[cave weta]

What T.W.R says is very true. The money and turnover involved in mining is huge. That doesn't mean to say the profits the company is raking off is as well.

The Macraes mine for example is Shell's second biggest customer of diesel fuel in NZ, second only to TranzRail. The money that changes hands and is pumped into the local economy from the work created and the infrastructure and support that is needed in itself creates a lot of income for the country from the tax collected alone. And that is money into the country generated from selling the gold offshore.

The mining company itself doesn't necessarily have a lot of surplus profit setting in a bank account for its shareholders though.

I dont want to keep picking on T.W.R. but MacRaes was started from scratch. Here in the Coromandel, Newmont have an $80million processing plant and all the extraction equipment ready to go. in 2004 when they started the Favona incline, they were extracting paydirt within 20months.

[cave weta]

Providing of course the tailings dam holds. :shutup:

The great thing about the new backfill method of mining is that the tailings dam is not holding any waste rock- that is all used in backfiill .
the tailings dam just holds the residue from the extraction process which is minimal.

[dipshit]

The great thing about the new backfill method of mining is that the tailings dam is not holding any waste rock- that is all used in backfiill .
the tailings dam just holds the residue from the extraction process which is minimal.

I know. Still the Macraes tailings dam(s) aren't exactly what anyone would call "minimal" after 20 years of the processing plant running 24/7. :shifty:

And such tailings dams are high in metals and other nasties from the plant doing its job of extracting the metals out of the rock.

Though you don't always need the processing plant and its tailings dam in the same area as the mine itself. Macraes on the east coast for example is also processing the concentrated ore from its west coast Reefton mine.

[Skyryder]

Yes but technology is so much better today and methods are so much improved that in many cases you can't even tell they have been there!

In fact I can take you to places where the area is much better than before the mining was there!

Yes so can I.................but the difference is that it is no longer 'natural.' The bottomline on this OR is that the National Parks were established for perpertuity to remain a a natural state.. Now we either believe that there should be some parts on NZ that are sancrosanct or we do not. To me there are no ifs buts or maybes on this. It's black or white on the no shades or grey.

Both of us have lived in NZ where the National Parks have remained undisturbed.................I personly believe that becasue of this there is an obligation for 'our' generation to prevent any ecological damage of any kind................so that the future generations can enjoy what we have.

To be fair I am unaware of how much mining Labour has allowed but I am not aware that there have been any mines in schedule four land.

I am by no means certain of this but if true there is no way, in my opinion, to further National claims, as Gerry Brownlee has done with his release of Labourt consents, to add addditional mines on schedule four land.

The old adage two wrongs do make make a right


Skyryder

[T.W.R]

T.W.R - you need to step into this centuary and see current mining practices.

:lol: you're as amusing as the other twat

[dipshit]

To be fair I am unaware of how much mining Labour has allowed but I am not aware that there have been any mines in schedule four land.

National likes us... http://www.odt.co.nz/news/business/97689/still-finding-gold-macraes-after-three-million-ounces :shifty:

[oldrider]

Yes so can I.................but the difference is that it is no longer 'natural.' The bottomline on this OR is that the National Parks were established for perpertuity to remain a a natural state.. Now we either believe that there should be some parts on NZ that are sancrosanct or we do not. To me there are no ifs buts or maybes on this. It's black or white on the no shades or grey.

Both of us have lived in NZ where the National Parks have remained undisturbed.................I personly believe that becasue of this there is an obligation for 'our' generation to prevent any ecological damage of any kind................so that the future generations can enjoy what we have.

To be fair I am unaware of how much mining Labour has allowed but I am not aware that there have been any mines in schedule four land.

I am by no means certain of this but if true there is no way, in my opinion, to further National claims, as Gerry Brownlee has done with his release of Labourt consents, to add addditional mines on schedule four land.

The old adage two wrongs do make make a right


Skyryder

There is over a third of New Zealand held under DOC control, that is just nationalisation by stealth! IMHO

[T.W.R]

The great thing about the new backfill method of mining is that the tailings dam is not holding any waste rock- that is all used in backfiill .
the tailings dam just holds the residue from the extraction process which is minimal.

What do you think is contained in the residue from extraction ????

It's called overburden and a high percentage of the time has a very high content of fireclay which is highly acidic..... It's used for haul roads because of it's ability to shed water quickly and compacts like concrete the wash from it is more acidic than cowshit and rusts out metal ultra fast. The haul roads around a mine are kept moist to minimise dust but because of that any of the work utes that use the haul roads continually rust out in no time...... brand new double cabs having totally rusted out wheel arches within a year etc

[oldrider]

I have a friend with a farm that has old style workings and tailings all through one of his paddocks, it's a bloody mess!

He has this problem and I had some junk, so I have put it together to go through the old tailings and see if anything is left and hopefully clean up the site!

This is our recovery system prototype, still a few bugs to tidy up but it's looking promising so far, it recovers all the heavies that we put through it.

We are still working on a classifying system that will classify the material and recover fine stuff to process while at the same time enabling us to replace all the waste back into the paddock in as close as original state as we can.

The old hydro monitors really used to tear the countryside apart and leave a bloody great mess but they really had to work hard to get the gold that they got, they must have been tough old buggers!

Their water supply ran out and could not be regained, so the old miners packed up and left for Gabriel 's Gully down in Lawrence, they were Chinese, so we don't expect to find much left over in the tailings but there other little pockets worth visiting during the process!

We have a tank of water on the back of my wee truck that tops up the circulating system as we go. ( well that's the intention and it seems OK so far)

Here are a couple of views of our "captive river" during early trials.

Of course at the current rate of progress I may not live long enough to see the end of this project but it's good fun in the meantime!

[Skyryder]

I have a friend with a farm that has old style workings and tailings all through one of his paddocks, it's a bloody mess!

He has this problem and I had some junk, so I have put it together to go through the old tailings and see if anything is left and hopefully clean up the site!

This is our recovery system prototype, still a few bugs to tidy up but it's looking promising so far, it recovers all the heavies that we put through it.

We are still working on a classifying system that will classify the material and recover fine stuff to process while at the same time enabling us to replace all the waste back into the paddock in as close as original state as we can.

The old hydro monitors really used to tear the countryside apart and leave a bloody great mess but they really had to work hard to get the gold that they got, they must have been tough old buggers!

Their water supply ran out and could not be regained, so the old miners packed up and left for Gabriel 's Gully down in Lawrence, they were Chinese, so we don't expect to find much left over in the tailings but there other little pockets worth visiting during the process!

We have a tank of water on the back of my wee truck that tops up the circulating system as we go. ( well that's the intention and it seems OK so far)

Here are a couple of views of our "captive river" during early trials.

Of course at the current rate of progress I may not live long enough to see the end of this project but it's good fun in the meantime!

You do realize that your are practicing agrarian reform. It’s been known by many names but socialism is the most recent and is of co-operation.

I just knew you had not gone over entirely to the ‘dark side’ OR

The Americans call it 'being neighborly.' :hug:

[pete376403]

There is over a third of New Zealand held under DOC control, that is just nationalisation by stealth! IMHO
But what is the alternative? Selling the land? Apart from Eric Watson, not too many New Zealanders could afford it, so it would be sold to foreigners, and woulld be closed to us (eg like Shania Twains place, (nice chunk of Otago) or Lillybank station,at one stage owned by one of Suhartos family .
At least if DoC contrl the land, we can at least visit.

[oldrider]

But what is the alternative? Selling the land? Apart from Eric Watson, not too many New Zealanders could afford it, so it would be sold to foreigners, and woulld be closed to us (eg like Shania Twains place, (nice chunk of Otago) or Lillybank station,at one stage owned by one of Suhartos family .
At least if DoC contrl the land, we can at least visit.

True in so many ways but did you ever have access to Shania Twain's place before she bought it? You probably did not!

Shania Twain's place (Motatapu Stn) is open to the public for specific sporting functions and activities annually and there is a public (DOC controlled) walking track right through the property!

This was not the case before Shania Twain and her husband bought the property, so there is actually more public access now than there was before she bought it!

There are plenty of DOC controlled areas that are restricted or you can't go onto as you please and without express permission to be there!

As you say, the number of high priced dairy farms that appear to be coming under pressure from the banks currently has to be a worry because there are no NZ'rs with the backing to buy them anyway and the bloody banks don't give a stuff who buys them either!

This is something we here are not accustomed to and it makes us very nervous but by the same token, many New Zealanders have made a practice of buying up properties overseas, what's the difference?

Ownership of the land shouldn't really matter because they can't take it away with them and they still pay tax and employ local labour to run them, Motatapu Stn has poured millions into the local economy and they are far from finished with their development program yet!

[mashman]

As you say, the number of high priced dairy farms that appear to be coming under pressure from the banks currently has to be a worry because there are no NZ'rs with the backing to buy them anyway and the bloody banks don't give a stuff who buys them either!


Victor Cattermole? Supposedly a very successful, global business man... he's the only one I can think of off of the top of my head...

[Winston001]

I see Gerry Brownlee is now saying Solid Energy (a govt SOE) can participate in any mining. That's a win for the taxpayer and answers our earlier question about why NZ couldn't do its own mining.

Not that I think mining the conservation estate is the right thing to do - leave it alone. The benefits are unknown and the risks to one of the few diverse pristine environments left on the planet too great.

[u4ea]

anyone pissed off about the price of cheese.
No but butter is pricey..the healthy alternative to eating what was originally made to be engine grease..margarine!


I am just waiting for the Maoris to come to the table...:innocent:
haha they are just sitting on their larrels and waiting Im sure


Ok, I am speaking here as a person who moved into a mining town knowing nothing about it and have ended up with a job that entails taking people around the current mining operations that Newmont has in Waihi. Yes they have a huge Hole in the middle of town but this is not the future of mining in NZ. There are restrictions of noise, dust and Vibrations in place that are hard to work under and its not the practical way these days. Favona which the current under ground mine in waihi is based in the base of Gladstone Hill which is in waihi. the portal is 5 x 5 and you would never know it existed if you had not heard about it or seen it when on the mine site. Current underground mining doesn't leave open shafts and voids in the land as they take all the waste rock ( rock that contans no gold or silver in this case) back under to back fill which means there is no need to have mass waste rock embankments . Newmont are very open to the public and the media have done the whole scaring people thing by showing shots of martha mine ( the huge open pit) when ever mining is mentioned. This is because it is easily accessable and close to Auckland and is dramatic ...

As for the toxic tailings well I urge you to come on a tour and actually see what is at the top of the tailings embankment here....There are birds and the first inland breeding area for the NZ dotterel. You could drink the water ( full of duck shit)... come see what modern mining is about before you dismiss the idea it is not about fucking our land thats for sure....
Economic growth for a community has to be good


DOC are already flat out "poisoning" our National Parks right now and that's OK is it? :shit:

There will be very strong control on any future mining activity, besides, there are already mines in the parks now!

They were there under the Labour governments too but they (Liabour) are not interested in the facts when they are on an political hysteria bent! :mellow:
truth hurts


Then did you know that although they are proposing removing 7,058 hectares, they are also proposing adding 12,400 hectares to Section 4? A net gain.

But best of all? From March 2010 to May 2010 you get to have your say. Refer to page 36 onwards. It gives you options on how to handle your submission to the process.
Interesting


.Bollocks!.
yes prolly just like earths recourses to be drained my friend!

I am no tree hugger but do enjoy the natural landscapes and the wild life that is out there . I do plant trees on my 1/4 acre of the planet. I am tho a human ..I need a home and food and natural recourses to survive and keep warm with. To survive I rely on income and sustaining a lifestyle.I also like gold and diamonds ...If mining means jobs for NZers Im all for it so long as they do what they say they will to maintain and improve the mess that is left behind..

[Winston001]

I'm generally a Nat voter but have never held Gerry Brownlee in high regard. His plucking numbers out of thin air over the supposed mining numbers simply confirmed my view he is a populous lightweight.

It's difficult to ever know the mood of a nation but on this issue I think the govt got it badly wrong. They should have quietly gone ahead with the survey, given that it is useful information, without the jubilant public announcements. Now there is a fair chance most kiwis are against the mining no matter how small scale it is. We should remember that Labour approved many mining applications with no public awareness at all.

[rainman]

Economic growth for a community has to be good

A common misconception. Growth is not always good, or sufficient. (Alternatives: Consider Sarkozy's Décroissance approach (http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_round_up/320576/gdp_should_be_scrapped_says_sarkozy.html), or listen to Prof Tim Jackson's Feb 2010 LSE talk (http://www.lse.ac.uk/resources/podcasts/publicLecturesAndEvents.htm#generated-subheading2), google "the end of growth", or even read this good article at Feasta (http://www.feasta.org/documents/risk_resilience/Tipping_Point_summary.php).

Anyway, back to mining:
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2010/03/30/1247f90b22e9
"Mining plan could make $2.3m extra a year - NZIER"

We're borrowing $250m a week, and this cockamamie plan could make $2.3m a year? There's at least that in negative reputational effects already, I'm sure. And Nact have burned how much political capital over this? Just incompetent. I'll be pleaed to see them go.

[mashman]

It's difficult to ever know the mood of a nation but on this issue I think the govt got it badly wrong. They should have quietly gone ahead with the survey, given that it is useful information, without the jubilant public announcements. Now there is a fair chance most kiwis are against the mining no matter how small scale it is. We should remember that Labour approved many mining applications with no public awareness at all.

It's difficult to know the mood of a nation if you're put in power, by the people, to do these things on their behalf... oh, that and you have to ASK THE PEOPLE IN THE FIRST PLACE... I suppose that's what the submissions are for. Either way, Red or Blue, mining is either a millstone or a gemstone... and just because they only have, potentially, 3 years in office, doesn't mean that they should just half arse any solution... unfortunately though, this looks to be the case... as per any government

[mashman]

Well looks like the Ozzies have found some gold and diamonds in them thar hills... or is it just an excuse to go diggin around the area?

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/7050284/reefton-gold-and-diamond-find/

[avgas]

Not that I think mining the conservation estate is the right thing to do - leave it alone. The benefits are unknown and the risks to one of the few diverse pristine environments left on the planet too great.
As stated I am not against mining. But if we mine something called "Conservation estate" then the words have no meaning.
Even without the green aspect - we are not a nation of 2 year olds. No should mean NO! not mabey, not "just a little bit"
Conservation means to try and conserve all possible original attributes as viable.
Why even have "Laws" and "Rules" if we cant even sort the names we give things in this place.
How would politicians like it if we decided we did not like paying "Compulsory" tax and stopped - even just a little bit?

May our ancestors turn in their graves - we don't know what the word "conservation" means anymore

[avgas]

15 years ago Waihi was like Mangatawhiri, Pokeno, Mercer, Mangakino, Mangaweka, Whangamomona all are now. the mine has given people jobs, opened new businesses, built houses, supported schools and expanded social services.
Pffftt 15 years ago - you must be a youngin
We moved to Waihi Beach in 1983 - old man was working in the mines in Gorge first. Then transferred to Martha Pit.
Previous to that there were the shafts in Martha Hill - since the early 1900's?
The old pump house was not just for show then.
Waihi was basically created around that mine. Which is why there is some interesting rail and pubs. Also lots of little settlements like Waikino etc

As for big companies always cleaning up after themselves and putting all money back into the country - Waihi has not always had a good run. Anyone remember these guys (http://www.coeur.com/)we don't even get a mention on their website any more.