AMCC

[Shaun]

AMCC and Hampton downs people

Any one out there from the club? or the track? And have you been reading about a certain Mr Meads and his on track episodes of taking people out religiously??

I ask that he is spoken to prior to any practise sessions starting this week on friday at Hampton, and be told to pull his head in OR GO HOME Please simple

If Mat his dad is reading, sorry to have to ask for this mate, but your boy is going to hurt some one very seriously, and it is not needed

[Biggles08]

Shaun the policeman huh?:innocent:

[Shaun]

Shaun the policeman huh?:innocent:


O so funny, nah just sick of seeing people getting there bikes wrecked and possibly injured

[scuzeme]

Ive had a chance to sit down and talk with Bryce...hell of a nice guy and yeah he knows he has a reputation and he knows we all know, but seriously Shaun this thread is shit stirring on steriods i suggest you do the following:
1. Approach the guy yourself, this way you get his respect and maybe not get his back up by embarrasing him in the public domain.
2. Talk with him about the incidents your concerned with.
3. With your wealth of experience and expertise you maybe able to ascertain what the problem is and offer some corrective advice to help him fix it.

None of us want to crash, none of us want to get crashed into, Bryce has a nice shiney new Kwaka what is the actual problem? is it down to dangerous passes? Biggles can vouch the fact that even an experienced racer can almost take another experienced racer out because he nearly did at the last race meeting. This thread dosnt help Bryce maybe some constructive mentoring would.

Peace.

[PirateJafa]

I ask that he is spoken to prior to any practise sessions starting this week on friday at Hampton, and be told to pull his head in OR GO HOME Please simple

Looks like they may not even be seeing him there.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/120440-The-Goat-of-Hampton-Downs?p=1129696065#post1129696065

[Shaun]

Ive had a chance to sit down and talk with Bryce...hell of a nice guy and yeah he knows he has a reputation and he knows we all know, but seriously Shaun this thread is shit stirring on steriods i suggest you do the following:
1. Approach the guy yourself, this way you get his respect and maybe not get his back up by embarrasing him in the public domain.
2. Talk with him about the incidents your concerned with.
3. With your wealth of experience and expertise you maybe able to ascertain what the problem is and offer some corrective advice to help him fix it.

None of us want to crash, none of us want to get crashed into, Bryce has a nice shiney new Kwaka what is the actual problem? is it down to dangerous passes? Biggles can vouch the fact that even an experienced racer can almost take another experienced racer out because he nearly did at the last race meeting. This thread dosnt help Bryce maybe some constructive mentoring would.

Peace.


Not shit stearing sorry, just stateing the facts as they are. Shame about the ban for him, but I hope he learns from this, as he can ride when he stays on

[scrivy]

Can someone please tell me how many people he's taken out??

[prettybillie]

I can confirm he will not be racing at Hampton on the weekend.

[Peter Smith]

I can confirm he will not be racing at Hampton on the weekend.

Have you guy's got a programme together for the weekend that we could see?? Please

[viewer]

Can someone please tell me how many people he's taken out??

DOnt think anyone wants to answer youre question.

[scrivy]

DOnt think anyone wants to answer youre question.

Was just to find out how many were put at risk........ and how MNZ came to their conclussion, that's all.
I can't believe no-ones commented on the number. What other evidence does MNZ need to expel a member??

[Biggles08]

Was just to find out how many were put at risk........ and how MNZ came to their conclussion, that's all.
I can't believe no-ones commented on the number. What other evidence does MNZ need to expel a member??
Just had a conversation with Bryce Meads and he said the first he knew about all this was this morning...he hadn't talked to MNZ about this incident and more importantly they hadn't talked to him about it...just called him this morning and told him he wasn't racing tomorrow mainly due to his alleged dangerous riding that happened at the track day last Monday!?

I think its pretty off if this is actually how it happened (regardless if you think Bryce deserves this or not - obviously there is two sides to every story)...If I was about to be suspended from a National race meeting for some alleged (I use that word 'alleged' as he hasn't had a chance to defend it) misconduct on a track day, I would expect a clear process to be implemented that I was involved in so that I could at least have the opportunity to defend myself...and not be told 1 day before a race meeting I and my team had spent months preparing for that I'm not allowed to race!?

Maybe I'm reading it all wrong but I have a bad taste in my mouth over this... I feel for both party's involved in the incident last Monday at the track day, but it seems the baby has been thrown out with the bath water here!:blink:

[Robert Taylor]

Just had a conversation with Bryce Meads and he said the first he knew about all this was this morning...he hadn't talked to MNZ about this incident and more importantly they hadn't talked to him about it...just called him this morning and told him he wasn't racing tomorrow mainly due to his alleged dangerous riding that happened at the track day last Monday!?

I think its pretty off if this is actually how it happened (regardless if you think Bryce deserves this or not - obviously there is two sides to every story)...If I was about to be suspended from a National race meeting for some alleged (I use that word 'alleged' as he hasn't had a chance to defend it) misconduct on a track day, I would expect a clear process to be implemented that I was involved in so that I could at least have the opportunity to defend myself...and not be told 1 day before a race meeting I and my team had spent months preparing for that I'm not allowed to race!?

Maybe I'm reading it all wrong but I have a bad taste in my mouth over this... I feel for both party's involved in the incident last Monday at the track day, but it seems the baby has been thrown out with the bath water here!:blink:

Im with Shaun on this, this guy has been demonstrably dangerous with little regard for his fellow competitors. Ask Sam Love for starters............

Anyone unfortunate enough to be in his vicinity may not get a second chance and it could be a trip to the hospital. Im not surprised MNZ have acted the way they have and maybe now he will pull his head in. He and Matthew will doubtless not see it that way but the statement has been made, have respect for your fellow competitors.

[Biggles08]

Im with Shaun on this, this guy has been demonstrably dangerous with little regard for his fellow competitors. Ask Sam Love for starters............

Anyone unfortunate enough to be in his vicinity may not get a second chance and it could be a trip to the hospital. Im not surprised MNZ have acted the way they have and maybe now he will pull his head in. He and Matthew will doubtless not see it that way but the statement has been made, have respect for your fellow competitors.

All that being the case Robert that was not the point I was trying to make...Its the process, or apparent lack of. Is there no clear defined lines of appropriate actions on MNZ's behalf for this type of event happening...surely this is not an isolated incident and other riders have been suspended for dangerous riding...whats the protocol?

[Robert Taylor]

Ive had a chance to sit down and talk with Bryce...hell of a nice guy and yeah he knows he has a reputation and he knows we all know, but seriously Shaun this thread is shit stirring on steriods i suggest you do the following:
1. Approach the guy yourself, this way you get his respect and maybe not get his back up by embarrasing him in the public domain.
2. Talk with him about the incidents your concerned with.
3. With your wealth of experience and expertise you maybe able to ascertain what the problem is and offer some corrective advice to help him fix it.

None of us want to crash, none of us want to get crashed into, Bryce has a nice shiney new Kwaka what is the actual problem? is it down to dangerous passes? Biggles can vouch the fact that even an experienced racer can almost take another experienced racer out because he nearly did at the last race meeting. This thread dosnt help Bryce maybe some constructive mentoring would.

Peace.

With all respect to both riders that you mention neither of them are very experienced. Biggles at least has the common decency to not take people out.

[Robert Taylor]

All that being the case Robert that was not the point I was trying to make...Its the process, or apparent lack of. Is there no clear defined lines of appropriate actions on MNZ's behalf for this type of event happening...surely this is not an isolated incident and other riders have been suspended for dangerous riding...whats the protocol?

Im not sure excatly what the protocol is, but irrespective a danger to other riders has been removed before more damage is done. I guess if something is seen as dangerous upholding safety is fast tracked.

[SS90]

Shaun the policeman huh?:innocent:

Someone has to. Clearly the sport cannot "Police" itself.

[Biggles08]

Im not sure excatly what the protocol is, but irrespective a danger to other riders has been removed before more damage is done. I guess if something is seen as dangerous upholding safety is fast tracked.

I hear what your saying but it seems a lot of this has come about by a previous bad reputation (possibly justified) on Bryce's part rather than a current list of poor riding on track. I know he's taken others out...the only one I'm actually familiar with was the Sam Love incident in which case I'm pretty sure he's (Bryce) never denied he fucked up in that case...I think he's been in similar past crashes that have been assumed he's at fault but I don't know who and when but still...After his crash with Sam Love, he slowed down considerably...enough to be dicing with me for a good half year or so through the winter series...I never had any issues with his riding despite being concerned about it and we swapped paint on a couple of occasions but all was good and fair...so I guess I'm seeing it a little from a different view point than others as I have had no untoward experiences with him to date.

I'm really more concerned with the apparent lack of procedure in this case as I know both Bryce and his father have spent a lot of time and money to get to where they were a good contender for the 600 stock production championship 2010. It just doesn't seem in the spirit of motorcycle racing NZ to wait for the day before arguably NZ's biggest motorcycling event to inform them they will not be attending and no further discussions will follow. Pretty harsh IMHO

[Bren_chch]

With all respect to both riders that you mention neither of them are very experienced. Biggles at least has the common decency to not take people out.

Biggles at least has the common decency to film it when people take him out.

[Robert Taylor]

I hear what your saying but it seems a lot of this has come about by a previous bad reputation (possibly justified) on Bryce's part rather than a current list of poor riding on track. I know he's taken others out...the only one I'm actually familiar with was the Sam Love incident in which case I'm pretty sure he's (Bryce) never denied he fucked up in that case...I think he's been in similar past crashes that have been assumed he's at fault but I don't know who and when but still...After his crash with Sam Love, he slowed down considerably...enough to be dicing with me for a good half year or so through the winter series...I never had any issues with his riding despite being concerned about it and we swapped paint on a couple of occasions but all was good and fair...so I guess I'm seeing it a little from a different view point than others as I have had no untoward experiences with him to date.

I'm really more concerned with the apparent lack of procedure in this case as I know both Bryce and his father have spent a lot of time and money to get to where they were a good contender for the 600 stock production championship 2010. It just doesn't seem in the spirit of motorcycle racing NZ to wait for the day before arguably NZ's biggest motorcycling event to inform them they will not be attending and no further discussions will follow. Pretty harsh IMHO

No, if they are out of line and endangering the safety of others then a sledgehammer blow is appropriate. Plenty of other people have spent lots of money, including those who have been on the recieving end of inconsiderate riding.

[Biggles08]

No, if they are out of line and endangering the safety of others then a sledgehammer blow is appropriate. Plenty of other people have spent lots of money, including those who have been on the recieving end of inconsiderate riding.

How is it decided he was out of line? He's denying he was out of line in this case....who's right and who's wrong? He says one thing and Scott said another thing....both opinions are valid I think and a process should be followed if this is the only reason he has been suspended...oh and its not just for this event either...he's not racing for 6 months! I have heard other witnesses to this event say a different story to those that have been on here and they said it wasn't Bryces fault (Not his Father either). This is my point. no hearing or investigation seems to have been done before this decision was made...surely they should have contacted Bryce earlier this week to at the very least hear his version of events!?!

How does MNZ have enough information to make a call on this in such a 'sledgehammer blow' without even seeking the opposing persons view? Like I said, it appears on the face of it to be a harsh approach that is being 'made up on the fly,' and not following any set out protocol.

[sidecar bob]

How does MNZ have enough information to make a call on this in such a 'sledgehammer blow' without even seeking the opposing persons view?

It seems at the moment they are quite comfortable with that arrangment.
We have the same situation with the NZ sidecar champs this year.
False entries, rounds not run, insufficent entries at closing, but theyre happy to call it a championship anyway, regardless of what the other side think.

[roadracingoldfart]

I have never met either of the riders involved in the "incident" but if there is a common pattern emerging over riding behaviour then surely some form of rider training via a race school or private track tutorial is a good idea.
I base this on the fact that hes mentioned as being a fast racer and obviously needs a bit of guidence.
If the easiest way to sort the problem is for MNZ to suspend his entry then thats fine , a verdict has been handed out.
Why not take it one step further and get him on a course to success with a bit of education. I can recall a couple of rebel racers that turned out to be quit adapt at the trophy shelf filling syndrome.
Support from within the sport is always going to be possitive thing and i would like to see a referral from MNZ to some kind
of " acceptable " rider training / mentoring.


Paul.

[fossil]

I could be wrong but I thought that Mr Meads was on probation after Manfield and having been told that any further instances would see a suspension imposed, apparently it was recommended that he seek some assistance to improve his riding technique.

[Quasievil]

Biggles at least has the common decency to film it when people take him out.

Now that is some funny shit Bren!!

The rest of it seems like a online witch hunt kinda dum in my view, if you have concerns raise it with the riders rep and officials on the day??

[Billy]

I could be wrong but I thought that Mr Meads was on probation after Manfield and having been told that any further instances would see a suspension imposed, apparently it was recommended that he seek some assistance to improve his riding technique.

Yip,100% correct and the suspension period at this stage stands at 6 months,To be reviewed.

Riders he has taken out that I know are Nick Odermatt,Sam Love and the rider involved at the trackday at Hampton Downs

[scrivy]

Just had a conversation with Bryce Meads and he said the first he knew about all this was this morning...he hadn't talked to MNZ about this incident and more importantly they hadn't talked to him about it...just called him this morning and told him he wasn't racing tomorrow mainly due to his alleged dangerous riding that happened at the track day last Monday!?

As I asked before, how many people has Meads taken out?? Please, somebody answer my question. Is it 1? 2? 3? or what??
I would also like to know, did Meads get to have a disciplinary hearing with MNZ, and did he get to voice his side of the situation? As Biggles talked to Bryce yesterday - apparantely not!
I hope Bryce appeals this decision to an appeals committee, and if he does he will still get to race this weekend.

This seems like a witch hunt alright!
Now imagine if Geoff Booth got suspended from MNZ also because of the debarcle from Hampton Downs - which was another persons fault.

If MNZ did not talk to Bryce about the issue, then that is trial by executioner. That stinks.

[scuzeme]

With all respect to both riders that you mention neither of them are very experienced. Biggles at least has the common decency to not take people out.

Gee Rob i think Shaun would take exception to you saying hes not experienced, and i guess maybe the word is "competent' as the word experiened does infer racing over an extended period of time.
In any event you are side tracking the issue, Bryce has been suspended for 6 months and hes had it to the point where hes considering not racing anymore.
To all the guys baying for blood just go right ahead and keep shitting in your nest and why are at it why dont you eat your young aswell, i dont like getting into verbals and slinging match's but i cant sit back and agree with whats happened.
What this boils down to is a young up and coming rider with some talent has been stamped on, all this does is knock the wind out of the person and inevatibly make them bitter.
Why isnt the MNZ showing some real leadership here, dont come down on the guy come along side him and put a process in place to help him with any riding issues this then becomes a constructive process rather than a fucking witch hunt.

[scrivy]

Ah yes. Good ol' KB strikes again.

I remember last year when there was a huge push on here to get a new MNZ president elected. Funny how when he's been in the job, the very same people have told me that they wished they hadn't voted for him!!

Funny how some on here have bagged Mr Meads, but won't answer my question as to how many people he's actually taken out. Now they're happy he's not racing - yet the same people want to grow our sport??

Funny how a thread gets started 1 hour before the news is broken that Bryce is suspended!

Ah yes, good ol' KB.

[Billy]

Gee Rob i think Shaun would take exception to you saying hes not experienced, and i guess maybe the word is "competent' as the word experiened does infer racing over an extended period of time.
In any event you are side tracking the issue, Bryce has been suspended for 6 months and hes had it to the point where hes considering not racing anymore.
To all the guys baying for blood just go right ahead and keep shitting in your nest and why are at it why dont you eat your young aswell, i dont like getting into verbals and slinging match's but i cant sit back and agree with whats happened.
What this boils down to is a young up and coming rider with some talent has been stamped on, all this does is knock the wind out of the person and inevatibly make them bitter.
Why isnt the MNZ showing some real leadership here, dont come down on the guy come along side him and put a process in place to help him with any riding issues this then becomes a constructive process rather than a fucking witch hunt.

I dont like getting into verbals either,BUT your out of line on this one and clearly only heard half the story.

Bryce was under probation for the previous incidents and The board at MNZ decided enough was enough and stepped in and took action,Clearly the right thing to do.

Or would you rather they sat on their hands and then in the event of serious injury or death,You could bag them for that as well ??

[Billy]

Ah yes. Good ol' KB strikes again.

I remember last year when there was a huge push on here to get a new MNZ president elected. Funny how when he's been in the job, the very same people have told me that they wished they hadn't voted for him!!

Funny how some on here have bagged Mr Meads, but won't answer my question as to how many people he's actually taken out. Now they're happy he's not racing - yet the same people want to grow our sport??

Funny how a thread gets started 1 hour before the news is broken that Bryce is suspended!

Ah yes, good ol' KB.

A yes,Good old KB alright,

I had a face too face discussion with Jim Tuckerman last night in AK and it transpires that had it not been posted on here about the Hampton Downs incident,Then MNZ would have been none the wiser and NO action would have been taken against Bryce.Did someone mention shitting in ones own nest ???

[Goblin]

Funny how some on here have bagged Mr Meads, but won't answer my question as to how many people he's actually taken out.

Ah yes, good ol' KB.Have a look at Post #26. Billy happend to post at the same time as you so you may have missed it. That's 3 riders he's known to have taken out...how many does it take to be considered dangerous?

[fossil]

I don't know Mr Meads. But if I was advised that my riding or conduct wasn't up to scratch and that I was being put on probation and told that I would be suspended for any further incidents I would have done something pretty bloody quick to address the issues. I have too much invested in my sport to put it at risk.

[scrivy]

I had a face too face discussion with Jim Tuckerman last night in AK and it transpires that had it not been posted on here about the Hampton Downs incident,Then MNZ would have been none the wiser and NO action would have been taken against Bryce.Did someone mention shitting in ones own nest ???

So, let me understand it correctly, MNZ suspended a member solely due to an incident at Hampton Downs where it was alleged that Bryce was at fault? Without talking to Bryce, or following due process of a disputes committee, and they made their descision by the info that was obtained from KB???
This shows the total lack of communication from MNZ at present, and their decision certainly does not foster the sport of motorcycling in NZ.
I would strongly recommend that Bryce appeals their decision.

[Devil]

committee, and they made their descision by the info that was obtained from KB???
.
That is not correct. It just helped bring the incident to their attention.

[scrivy]

That is not correct. It just helped bring the incident to their attention.

So if enough people get on this website and bag 1 individual, MNZ will take heed of it?

As billy stated 'I had a face too face discussion with Jim Tuckerman last night in AK and it transpires that had it not been posted on here about the Hampton Downs incident,Then MNZ would have been none the wiser and NO action would have been taken'

So no action would have been taken otherwise? It was brought to their attention by KB, but did anyone else highlight it to MNZ?? Any other riders present that day? Again, you cannot make an unbiased ruling without speaking to the rider responsible.

[Devil]

PM Sent...

[Billy]

So, let me understand it correctly, MNZ suspended a member solely due to an incident at Hampton Downs where it was alleged that Bryce was at fault? Without talking to Bryce, or following due process of a disputes committee, and they made their descision by the info that was obtained from KB???
This shows the total lack of communication from MNZ at present, and their decision certainly does not foster the sport of motorcycling in NZ.
.So whereabouts in my post does it say the decision was made SOLELY due to an incident at Hampton Downs??And how do you know they didnt follow due process??

Have you spoken too Jim?Have you spoken too anybody from the board ?Have you spoken too ANYBODY from the roadrace commission?If not,Where outside of KB do you get your information on this subject??

[Billy]

So if enough people get on this website and bag 1 individual, MNZ will take heed of it?
I GUESS AS IN THE CASE IF THE PERSON INVOLVED WAS ALREADY UNDER PROBATION IT MIGHT GIVE CAUSE FOR AN INVESTIGATION
As billy stated 'I had a face too face discussion with Jim Tuckerman last night in AK and it transpires that had it not been posted on here about the Hampton Downs incident,Then MNZ would have been none the wiser and NO action would have been taken'

So no action would have been taken otherwise? It was brought to their attention by KB, but did anyone else highlight it to MNZ?? Any other riders present that day? Again, you cannot make an unbiased ruling without speaking to the rider responsible.

KB was the first indication for MNZ,But there were a number of top line riders at the track who were less than impressed with what they saw,So whos too say they havent been in contact with MNZ as well??

How do you know MNZ havent spoken too Bryce??As I understand it there has been dialogue between his family and MNZ and also one of his sponsors and MNZ so I would assume the information had been passed on too the rider concerned.

[fossil]

So, let me understand it correctly, MNZ suspended a member solely due to an incident at Hampton Downs where it was alleged that Bryce was at fault? Without talking to Bryce, or following due process of a disputes committee, and they made their descision by the info that was obtained from KB???
This shows the total lack of communication from MNZ at present, and their decision certainly does not foster the sport of motorcycling in NZ.
I would strongly recommend that Bryce appeals their decision.

You make some damning assumptions here. I hope you have all the facts and background information to back them up.
You started this post with" So,let me understand it correctly". I don't think you have.

[scrivy]

Just had a conversation with Bryce Meads and he said the first he knew about all this was this morning...he hadn't talked to MNZ about this incident and more importantly they hadn't talked to him about it...just called him this morning and told him he wasn't racing tomorrow mainly due to his alleged dangerous riding that happened at the track day last Monday!?

So whereabouts in my post does it say the decision was made SOLELY due to an incident at Hampton Downs??
By your own post Billy. MNZ would have been none the wiser and 'as Jim said to you' NO action would have been taken against Bryce.

And how do you know they didnt follow due process??
By Biggles post above and the fact that Bryce wasn't spoken to for his version of events, nor had a disputes committee set up to hear his side.




How is it decided he was out of line? He's denying he was out of line in this case....who's right and who's wrong? He says one thing and Scott said another thing....both opinions are valid I think and a process should be followed if this is the only reason he has been suspended...oh and its not just for this event either...he's not racing for 6 months! I have heard other witnesses to this event say a different story to those that have been on here and they said it wasn't Bryces fault (Not his Father either). This is my point. no hearing or investigation seems to have been done before this decision was made...surely they should have contacted Bryce earlier this week to at the very least hear his version of events!?!

How does MNZ have enough information to make a call on this in such a 'sledgehammer blow' without even seeking the opposing persons view? Like I said, it appears on the face of it to be a harsh approach that is being 'made up on the fly,' and not following any set out protocol.
The above and below posts are exactly the reason why committees are set up for greivances.

KB was the first indication for MNZ,But there were a number of top line riders at the track who were less than impressed with what they saw,So whos too say they havent been in contact with MNZ as well??

How do you know MNZ havent spoken too Bryce??As I understand it there has been dialogue between his family and MNZ and also one of his sponsors and MNZ so I would assume the information had been passed on too the rider concerned.

MNZ have made a huge call with this. When was the last time a rider was suspended? I hope for their sake they have done it right.

[scrivy]

How do you know MNZ havent spoken too Bryce??As I understand it there has been dialogue between his family and MNZ and also one of his sponsors and MNZ so I would assume the information had been passed on too the rider concerned.
Having known the Meads family for about 20 years, after getting off the phone to them, I can tell you, there was NO dialogue with them before ringing them to say Bryces licence was suspended!
That will not stand up in court.
Also, their sponsor Kawasaki was informed about it before Bryce was. That is about as dispicable as you can get. Not to mention a breach of Bryce's confidentiality.


You make some damning assumptions here. I hope you have all the facts and background information to back them up.
You started this post with" So,let me understand it correctly". I don't think you have.

Sorry fossil, but I got off my ass and made the phonecalls myself. This is nothing more than a witch hunt as stated before. As I also stated - the politics of KB is what's destroying our sport, as MNZ currently listen to too many so called experts on here rather than communicating with the affected members.

[Billy]

The above and below posts are exactly the reason why committees are set up for greivances.


MNZ have made a huge call with this. When was the last time a rider was suspended? I hope for their sake they have done it right.

So therefore,As I suspected,All your information has come from KB??

What Jim was implying is:Had nobody posted on KB about the said incident,Then they would have had no reason too investigate the matter further.The decision to suspend him was not taken lightly and included members of the roadrace commission and the MNZ board as I understand it and took into consideration the events mentioned earlier involving Sam Love and Nick Odermat.NOT ON THE BASIS OF A POST ON KIWIBIKER as you are trying your hardest too imply.

[scrivy]

So therefore,As I suspected,All your information has come from KB??
Wrong!! Read my post above. I got off my ass and rang the Meads myself! From the horses mouth so to speak.

What Jim was implying is:Had nobody posted on KB about the said incident,Then they would have had no reason too investigate the matter further.The decision to suspend him was not taken lightly and included members of the roadrace commission and the MNZ board as I understand it and took into consideration the events mentioned earlier involving Sam Love and Nick Odermat.NOT ON THE BASIS OF A POST ON KIWIBIKER as you are trying your hardest too imply.
What Jim was implying is:Had nobody posted on KB about the said incident,Then they would have had no reason too investigate the matter further.
So its OK to critisise me with your assumption of me getting my info from KB, but when Jim gets his info from KB, that's ok?? WTF???

I can also tell you that the Meads's were told by JT himself that they cannot appeal MNZ's decision. Can MNZ please tell me in which part of their own constitution it says that no appeals are possible?

JT has no more rights under his own constitution as either you or I do.

Oh, hang on, will I lose my licence for speaking up on these matters too?

[scrivy]

Im sorry, but if I were Bryce, I'd be appealing this and turning up at HD anyway.

Whether or not he was on probation, due process must still be followed. This appears to be an illegal suspension.

7.2.1 The disciplinary powers of the Steward are exercisable in the case of any Member or
person for whom the Member is responsible:
a. Contravening any competition rule, supplementary regulation or any
instruction of the Steward at any meeting;
b. Conduct on or off the track or course during the course of a meeting that, in
the Steward’s opinion, brings discredit or disrepute to MNZ.

7.2.9 a. The Board must give the Member not less than 10 working days notice of
the hearing of any complaint or complaints against the Member.
b. A Member may answer the complaint:
i. by letter to the Board; or
ii. by appearance before the Board.

7.2.10 The Board, having heard the Member and any other party entitled to be heard, and
the evidence adduced, will determine the proceeding. It may find any breach alleged
proved or dismiss the charge or make such other order as it thinks fit.

7.4 APPEALS
7.4.1 Any person or body affected by a decision of the Steward and/or Protest Committee
may appeal the decision to the Appeal Committee. Any person or body affected by a
decision of the Board or who is dissatisfied with the outcome of an appeal to the
Appeal Committee may appeal the decision of the Board or of the Appeal Committee
to the Sports Disputes Tribunal of New Zealand.


4.10.13 Where the entry of any competitor is refused by a club for a New Zealand, North or
South Island title event, or any event counting towards any of these titles, always
providing that the entry is on the correct form and received by the club within the
stipulated time, the competitor shall have the right to appeal to the Board of MNZ.
4.10.13.1 An appeal under this section shall be lodged at the MNZ Office within seven (7) days
of the competitor being notified by the promoter or organising club that the entry
has been refused.
4.10.13.2 The competitor shall be permitted to compete in the particular event or events
concerned until such time as the appeal has been finalised.

[Billy]

What Jim was implying is:Had nobody posted on KB about the said incident,Then they would have had no reason too investigate the matter further.
So its OK to critisise me with your assumption of me getting my info from KB, but when Jim gets his info from KB, that's ok?? WTF???

I can also tell you that the Meads's were told by JT himself that they cannot appeal MNZ's decision. Can MNZ please tell me in which part of their own constitution it says that no appeals are possible?

JT has no more rights under his own constitution as either you or I do.

Oh, hang on, will I lose my licence for speaking up on these matters too?

So you got off your ass (in your words)and rang the Meads family this afternoon,Funny youve been bagging MNZs decision all morning on the basis of he said/she said.
Furthermore,NO WHERE did I say Jim got his information from KB,Rather it was conveyed too him by a member of the roadrace commission who had seen it on here and from there it was investigated.Jim was merely the person I spoke with in relation too this matter.Lets make it clear right here MNZ is more than one person and this decision was NOT made by one person alone.
If Bryce wants too chance his arm by turning up at Hampton Downs,So be it.But Im sure you mentioning his sponsors name and comments made by his family are going too do his chances of an appeal no good!

If for some reason he were too ride this weekend and the unthinkable were too happen,Im sure wed have a whole different group of people on here questioning how MNZ let that happen.

Will you lose youre licence for your comments on here?Buggered if I know,Depends whether or not somebody sees it as a breach of the code of conduct and lays a complaint.

[Drew]

Well fuckin hell. KB has once again shown itself to be meddling where it shouldn't. Who'd have thought it?

Shaun- Fuckin shit house thread start man! Your point is completely lost by making it public, instead of going directly to the rider/MNZ. You're a balsy fucker, with the respect of a lot of people, you WERE in my opinion an ideal candidate to step in to a situation with some ideas on resolving it. Now it really does just look like shit stirring and it bloody sucks!

To those with the torches ready to burn Bryce once he's staked- What a joke you are. There are issues here that should not be being bitched about on this fuckin site, but instead taken up with the governing body.

Bryce being on probation, I think can only mean the incident at Hampton Downs is relevant if it were an MNZ sanctioned event. With a steward present and all rules being adhered. Licence dropped off in the morning and gotten back in the arvo. Otherwise it counts for FUCK ALL!

This site lets itself down every bloody day, you fuckin guttless cunts want it to have a say in the running of our sport, FRONT THE FUCK UP AND GET ON THE COMMITEE! Cos the voice of this site goes a bit like this. WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAA, "I know best". "Fuck off, I know best". With a complete absence of accountability for anything that gets said, other than possibly being banned from this site.

Very few of us use our real names on here, and even fewer have the stones to stand up in front of a crowd and voice the same opinion they spout.

This site has the largest number of New Zealand motorcyclists as members in the country, and fuck if it doesn't make me wanna go buy a Skyline and take up drifting on a regular basis. At least those guys promote themselves well, and present a positive image.

[Drew]

So you got off your ass (in your words)and rang the Meads family this afternoon,Funny youve been bagging MNZs decision all morning on the basis of he said/she said.
Furthermore,NO WHERE did I say Jim got his information from KB,Rather it was conveyed too him by a member of the roadrace commission who had seen it on here and from there it was investigated.Jim was merely the person I spoke with in relation too this matter.Lets make it clear right here MNZ is more than one person and this decision was NOT made by one person alone.
If Bryce wants too chance his arm by turning up at Hampton Downs,So be it.But Im sure you mentioning his sponsors name and comments made by his family are going too do his chances of an appeal no good!

If for some reason he were too ride this weekend and the unthinkable were too happen,Im sure wed have a whole different group of people on here questioning how MNZ let that happen.

Will you lose youre licence for your comments on here?Buggered if I know,Depends whether or not somebody sees it as a breach of the code of conduct and lays a complaint.

Billy, I got an immense amount of time for you mate. But I think you're taking this a little personally.

Weather or not Bryce should be allowed to ride is pretty irrelevant if the appropriate steps have not been taken.

I have only met Matt Meads, and doubt we'd be mates under many circumstances, and two of the guys who have been involved in crashes with Bryce are mates. But this doesn't seem right to me.

[Billy]

Billy, I got an immense amount of time for you mate. But I think you're taking this a little personally.

Weather or not Bryce should be allowed to ride is pretty irrelevant if the appropriate steps have not been taken.

I have only met Matt Meads, and doubt we'd be mates under many circumstances, and two of the guys who have been involved in crashes with Bryce are mates. But this doesn't seem right to me.

Yip,Youre right too a point!The thing that annoys me is the people (for want of a better word)T hat frequent this site and spout off without knowing the facts.Having said that I dont necessarily know that this was handled by the book,But I do think the right thing has been done and that is why I stopped being an MNZ steward and clerk of the course and just recently turned down a position on the new roadrace commission.Simply because there appears too be no room ih the constitution for common sense.I have absolutely no agenda with Bryce Meads,In fact I dont even know the guy,But the fact is,Something is going wrong here and maybe a little time to cool his heals may just be what is required ??I for one hope he can take sometime out and comeback even better than before,The guys obviously got talent but maybe just a touch too much aggression.

Hope too catch up during the Actrix series

[Drew]

Yip,Youre right too a point!The thing that annoys me is the people (for want of a better word)T hat frequent this site and spout off without knowing the facts.Having said that I dont necessarily know that this was handled by the book,But I do think the right thing has been done and that is why I stopped being an MNZ steward and clerk of the course and just recently turned down a position on the new roadrace commission.Simply because there appears too be no room ih the constitution for common sense.I have absolutely no agenda with Bryce Meads,In fact I dont even know the guy,But the fact is,Something is going wrong here and maybe a little time to cool his heals may just be what is required ??I for one hope he can take sometime out and comeback even better than before,The guys obviously got talent but maybe just a touch too much aggression.

Hope too catch up during the Actrix series

Then there is a fundamental flaw with the whole system.

I feel that Bryce is in serious need of sorting his shit out, I cant comment on riding on the wrong side of caution as I spent a season doing it, but it can be done without risking others. But if the steps weren't followed to his suspension, he should be showing up at Hampton wearing a big FUCK YOU T-shirt.

I'll be there with bells on, and a rig to thrash too I hope. Vic series I mean, not Hampton nats.

[ellipsis]

Then there is a fundamental flaw with the whole system.


...yea, its all run by humans..... strange bunch...

[FROSTY]

Guys I think you all need to step back and ask something.
Why are two extremely well respected and very experienced racers upset about this persons riding?
Forget all the he has rights, and rules n regulations and all that stuff . Why are these two guys that concerned?
Reminding you that they BOTH live and breath the sport.

Yea its possible that ego's are involved and they are both being assholes. But do you really think thats the likely case??

[White trash]

Tony, I've gotta say it's perhaps you who step back a little. You're telling me it's rightt because Shaun and Billy say it is? I've got a hell of a lot of time for both parties but I'll take my own opinion thanks.

Lets say one day MNZ have a chat with you about your riding on the track. Then the next weekend, your charged with dangerous riding on the road for doing a wheelie. Charged is VERY different from convicted remember. It's posted about on KB so MNZ pull your licence with know consultation or right of appeal? Is that fair? I doubt it.

FYI I think the rider in question is a dangerous cunt who should not be riding, but this isn't how things are done. I also believe MNZ will once again be shafted by SPARC for not following procedure. And rightly so.

[FROSTY]

Tony, I've gotta say it's perhaps you who step back a little. You're telling me it's rightt because Shaun and Billy say it is?
FYI I think the rider in question is a dangerous cunt who should not be riding,
In a nutshell I believe that if they are concerned enough to kick up this kind of stink then yes theres an issue that needs to be looked at.
Im NOT saying that the way ot was dealt with was correct nor for that matter that it wasn't just that it takes a fair bit to get those people riled up enough to comment.
You do seem to agree with their opinion about this rider
As someone once said--"taint tiddlywinks we're playing here"
The poor bloke was unfortunate in that two guys he tangled with are "high profile" riders.
Its possible that its a "witch hunt" of course

To answer your question
I'd be totally gutted and looking inward at myself at the point MNZ actually felt they needed to intervene So I know I'd be pulling my head in bigtime. --Having almost "been there" when I drafted too close to KK and got a written warning--and rightly so

[Crasherfromwayback]

This site lets itself down every bloody day, you fuckin guttless cunts want it to have a say in the running of our sport, FRONT THE FUCK UP AND GET ON THE COMMITEE! Cos the voice of this site goes a bit like this. WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAA, "I know best". "Fuck off, I know best". With a complete absence of accountability for anything that gets said, other than possibly being banned from this site.

Very few of us use our real names on here, and even fewer have the stones to stand up in front of a crowd and voice the same opinion they spout.




Dude...I think Shauns post came from a good/genuine place...and ok...while it might not have been the place/way to do it...it sounds like the boy needs to hear it.

Road racing is dangerous enough without reckless riding from ANYONE. I don't know the guy...nor have I seen him ride. But I nearly lost my fucking foot due to someone elses silly move, and that's not cool. So if...and I say 'if' he's dangerous...I couldn't give a fuck if he's hurt or insulted by anything written here. If he's not...he shouldn't care. I know I wouldn't.

[Drew]

Dude...I think Shauns post came from a good/genuine place...and ok...while it might not have been the place/way to do it...it sounds like the boy needs to hear it.He does need to hear it, but not like this is what I'm saying.


Road racing is dangerous enough without reckless riding from ANYONE. I don't know the guy...nor have I seen him ride. But I nearly lost my fucking foot due to someone elses silly move, and that's not cool. So if...and I say 'if' he's dangerous...I couldn't give a fuck if he's hurt or insulted by anything written here. If he's not...he shouldn't care. I know I wouldn't.I could care less if he's crying in his weetbix about it right now too mate, but I see the way it's been handled as wrong, not the result.

[wharfy]

Justice is like work, it has to be seen to be done, and even if this turns out to be all "above board" and correct - at the moment it just looks wrong.

[trev]

Were all the procedures followed when he "was put on probation" ???

[Billy]

Were all the procedures followed when he "was put on probation" ???

Ill use Trevs post too answer some of the posts above.

The simple facts are:The investigation into the Hampton Downs incident involving Bryce Meads did not begin due too Shauns post or anything I have said in this thread,Rather it was instigated following Craig Shirriffs post in the "Goat of Hampton Downs" thread.

The fact is,The board of MNZ and the roadrace commission have made a decision too remove a potential risk to some of its members.A move I applaud,Motor racing is dangerous and anything that can be done too improve safety should be brought to MNZs attention and acted on.Atleast a few of the people that have posted on this thread were at Pukekohe the day Derek Hill and Phil Harrison were killed and one that springs too my mind was disraught that a death had occured,Yet that same person is now bagging MNZ for and Jim Tuckerman in particular for suspending a rider that was already under probation for dangerous riding ???

Did MNZ follow the correct protocol?Ask them,Jim Tuckerman 021 725614 or if you dont want too talk to Jim,Peter Ramage(Chairman roadrace commission)0273580318,Nows good.Personally,I dont give a rats arse,Theyve dealt with a serious problem and that whats important too me first and foremost.

Finally(If anybodys still reading this)If I have become an Arsehole for defending MNZs decision,Then so be it,As long as it has potentially saved a life or serious injury,Im comfortable with that,Will the PC brigade be happy with yet another needless death,Just so little Johnnys feelings werent hurt???

[scrivy]

The fact is,The board of MNZ and the roadrace commission have made a decision too remove a potential risk to some of its members.A move I applaud,Motor racing is dangerous and anything that can be done too improve safety should be brought to MNZs attention and acted on.Atleast a few of the people that have posted on this thread were at Pukekohe the day Derek Hill and Phil Harrison were killed and one that springs too my mind was disraught that a death had occured,Yet that same person is now bagging MNZ for and Jim Tuckerman in particular for suspending a rider that was already under probation for dangerous riding ???
If you're referring to me Billy, then yes I was distraught at Puke a few years back - who wasn't? Enough so, that I couldn't compete in the last race of the day. However, an accident is a little different from a perceived potential death.

I am all for reprimanding someone if they are out of line. No disputes there. But Billy, as you know. I'm not exactly on MNZ's Xmas list, so it does appear that every time I mention something on this thread, you jump in and attack me for it. Yet you agree with Drew that it may have been handled wrong? Isn't that what I've ben trying to say all along - but you have bagged me the whole time, to try and belittle me?? Is that a new MNZ trait?

Did MNZ follow the correct protocol?Ask them,Jim Tuckerman 021 725614 or if you dont want too talk to Jim,Peter Ramage(Chairman roadrace commission)0273580318,Nows good.Personally,I dont give a rats arse,Theyve dealt with a serious problem and that whats important too me first and foremost.
But you said you turned down a possible position with MNZ's new Commission due to their being a lack of common sense. So if you were on the commission -you still wouldn't give a rats arse?? You would have let your emotions override your common sense too, cause everyone else agreed? Is that unbiased?? If that's the mentality of our elected MNZ members, then our sport is fucked - you know it! As I have said alot of times now in this thread - proper due process was not followed. THAT IS WHAT I AM AGAINST. Slinging matches with MNZ officials is not what I am after - common sense is - even you alluded to that being necessary!

Finally(If anybodys still reading this)If I have become an Arsehole for defending MNZs decision,Then so be it,As long as it has potentially saved a life or serious injury,Im comfortable with that,Will the PC brigade be happy with yet another needless death,Just so little Johnnys feelings werent hurt???
On another note.... how many people did Simon Crafar take out in NZ??
How many riders has Nori Haga taken out??
Did any of these riders get treated the way Bryce has???
If Bryce's riding is that life threatening - why has no one answered my original question as to how many people hes taken out?
Even the initiator of this thread should at least answer the question?

[Billy]

On another note.... how many people did Simon Crafar take out in NZ??
How many riders has Nori Haga taken out??
Did any of these riders get treated the way Bryce has???
If Bryce's riding is that life threatening - why has no one answered my original question as to how many people hes taken out?
Even the initiator of this thread should at least answer the question?

Bagging you?Or correcting your misquoted replies??
Your question was answered in post 26 as pointed out a lifetime ago by Goblin.You remeber Goblin dont you?Shes the one you banned from the TRRS due to her dispute with one of youre associates.Did you get her side of the story?Was due process followed??Im sure youve heard the one about people in glasshouses throwing stones!!

I will not be posting on this thread again,As Ive given all the relevant information I have on the matter,If you require futher dialogue with me Mr Scrivener,I suggest you either ring me on 075745579,0212928400 or 0273857340,Or Email me direct at acrfibreglass@actrix.co.nz,

For further information pertaining this subject,Again,Jim Tuckerman 021725614 or Peter Ramage 0273580318.

Have a nice day

[scrivy]

Bagging you?Or correcting your misquoted replies??
Your question was answered in post 26 as pointed out a lifetime ago by Goblin.You remeber Goblin dont you?Shes the one you banned from the TRRS due to her dispute with one of youre associates.Did you get her side of the story?Was due process followed??Im sure youve heard the one about people in glasshouses throwing stones!!
You crack me up Billy. Yeah I know Kelly well. Sorry again mate, but I didn't ban her at all. She and I had a talk (cause I like the phone to talk to people - to get the factual information - so I can make an unbiased opinion all on my own) and she decided not to appear at the TRRS due to reasons you obviously know about. So a due process was followed Billy - it's called communication!! Did I ban her from appearing too?? No!!



I will not be posting on this thread again,As Ive given all the relevant information I have on the matter,If you require futher dialogue with me Mr Scrivener,I suggest you either ring me on 075745579,0212928400 or 0273857340,Or Email me direct at acrfibreglass@actrix.co.nz,

For further information pertaining this subject,Again,Jim Tuckerman 021725614 or Peter Ramage 0273580318.

Have a nice day
What other mistruths will you now try to dredge up to inflict a shame and discredit on me from KB??
and yes, that is my name - what was yours again?

It really is a sad day if anybody has a differing opinion about MNZ, that you get personally attacked on KB.

[jasonu]

]

________________________________________

[Drew]

]

________________________________________That's a mighty fine post indeed. Best in the thread.

[Pussy]

That's a mighty fine post indeed. Best in the thread.

It was VERY subtle.....

[Drew]

It was VERY subtle.....Indeed, I nearly missed the meaning entirely.

[Tony.OK]

Indeed, I nearly missed the meaning entirely.

If you look at the deeper meaning to the post, one will see the symbolic effect of only posting half of a set of parenthesis, and in fact by only leaving the latter half ie- the closing half, then it would suggest to the avid subscriber to said "thread" that perhaps the author is in fact saying that perhaps the subject should be closed.

Well thats how I read it anyway:bleh:

A simpler reason some might say is that it wasn't deleted properly, but this is KB after all so the easiest answer is normally the wrong one:laugh:

[Drew]

If you look at the deeper meaning to the post, one will see the symbolic effect of only posting half of a set of parenthesis, and in fact by only leaving the latter half ie- the closing half, then it would suggest to the avid subscriber to said "thread" that perhaps the author is in fact saying that perhaps the subject should be closed.
I drew (no pun intended) the same conclusion. And was further compelled to read the meaning from the well defined "line", serving both the pre-requisite ten characters, and a very end like tone.

Well done to the author indeed.

[jasonu]

That's a mighty fine post indeed. Best in the thread.

Get stuffed.
I posted something and later decided to withdraw it. I couldn't see how to remove it completely so this was the best I could do.

[Drew]

Get stuffed.
I posted something and later decided to withdraw it. I couldn't see how to remove it completely so this was the best I could do.This post is no where near as fun as your last one. Party pooper.

[scrivy]

I thought it was more a line in the sand..........

[Biggles08]

A lot of information and miss-information has been posted about on here from both sides of the argument, and its all pretty irrelevant to the issue. The ONLY issue I was trying to point out was the seemingly lack of consultation with the party DIRECTLY INVOLVED!

The very basis of the democracy system we all supposedly live in is the basic right to hear both sides of the story BEFORE making a judgment on the guilt and punishment of ANYONE accused. This is for EVERY case no matter how obvious you think the outcome will be. Had MNZ made a phone call informing Bryce that they were investigating a possible breach of his 'probation period' and wanted to hear his version of events, I for one would feel a lot better about the final outcome of his suspension for 6 months. All the background involved in he said, she said is not the point...don't try to justify actions taken (or not taken) by confusing the basic issue that the Meads were not given a chance to voice their side of the story...fullstop! This is classic case of dictating to the peasants "You will do as your told without a voice!" which makes me think maybe a riders union or similar might be a good idea...

[Quasievil]

Was it anything to do with the fact he was the only rider in 600 Stocks also??

Seems to me that if he wasnt given the chance to discuss it with MNZ etc before his "phone call" then I reckon its kinda rank

[jasonu]

This post is no where near as fun as your last one. Party pooper.

That is because I am not a fun person.

[scrivy]

A lot of information and miss-information has been posted about on here from both sides of the argument, and its all pretty irrelevant to the issue. The ONLY issue I was trying to point out was the seemingly lack of consultation with the party DIRECTLY INVOLVED!

The very basis of the democracy system we all supposedly live in is the basic right to hear both sides of the story BEFORE making a judgment on the guilt and punishment of ANYONE accused. This is for EVERY case no matter how obvious you think the outcome will be. Had MNZ made a phone call informing Bryce that they were investigating a possible breach of his 'probation period' and wanted to hear his version of events, I for one would feel a lot better about the final outcome of his suspension for 6 months. All the background involved in he said, she said is not the point...don't try to justify actions taken (or not taken) by confusing the basic issue that the Meads were not given a chance to voice their side of the story...fullstop! This is classic case of dictating to the peasants "You will do as your told without a voice!" which makes me think maybe a riders union or similar might be a good idea...



Having known the Meads family for about 20 years, after getting off the phone to them, I can tell you, there was NO dialogue with them before ringing them to say Bryces licence was suspended!
That is about as dispicable as you can get. Not to mention a breach of Bryce's confidentiality.

That is exactly the point I was trying to get through Biggles. Absolutely no dialogue!

[Biggles08]

That is exactly the point I was trying to get through Biggles. Absolutely no dialogue!

I agree...that is the whole issue...not the result of the suspension....he may deserve it, he may not...a fair hearing of both cases is the only way to truly know.

[scrivy]

I agree...that is the whole issue...not the result of the suspension....he may deserve it, he may not...a fair hearing of both cases is the only way to truly know.

Actually, where in the MNZ constitution does it say you can be on probation??

[Quasievil]

Sounds very political and back room dealing to me

[Drew]

That is because I am not a fun person.Well then, I wont look you up when I'm next in Oregon then. Which could be a while, given that I've never been, don't have any plans to, and don't know anything about the state to entice me to make plans. Aside from all that, you're off the must visit list.:bleh:

[Deano]

Aside from all that, you're off the must visit list.:bleh:

But did you notify him that you were planning to take him off the list first and is there an appeal process that must be followed for this ?

[sidecar bob]

Bagging you?Or correcting your misquoted replies??
Your question was answered in post 26 as pointed out a lifetime ago by Goblin.You remeber Goblin dont you?Shes the one you banned from the TRRS due to her dispute with one of youre associates.Did you get her side of the story?Was due process followed??Im sure youve heard the one about people in glasshouses throwing stones!!

I think that one was fairly clear cut. It involved an assault which was investigated by the Police & the matter of her consuming Bourbon while competing at a meeting several months earlier, that one of the organisers was aware of.

[Deano]

I think that one was fairly clear cut. It involved an assault which was investigated by the Police & the matter of her consuming Bourbon while competing at a meeting several months earlier, that one of the organisers was aware of.

OMG - anyone else want to air others' dirty laundry while we're here ?

Did this really need elaborating on in public forum ?

[sidecar bob]

OMG - anyone else want to air others' dirty laundry while we're here ?

Did this really need elaborating on in public forum ?

Not really, but Scrivys actions needed justifying. Id rather not needed to do it.
The assault was on one of the TRRS crew, so reasonably justified.

[Drew]

Not really, but Scrivys actions needed justifying. Id rather not needed to do it.
The assault was on one of the TRRS crew, so reasonably justified.

I think he's pretty secure in his decision on that one mate. Was a questionable remark on Billy's part to make his point though.

This thread does a good job of illustrating that we should none of us, be saying what should and should not be happening, without knowing the full story.

Shit has come to light on stuff that really doesn't concern the general public, and is only gonna stir uninformed debate further.

[scracha]

I think he's pretty secure in his decision on that one mate. Was a questionable remark on Billy's part to make his point though.

This thread does a good job of illustrating that we should none of us, be saying what should and should not be happening, without knowing the full story.

Shit has come to light on stuff that really doesn't concern the general public, and is only gonna stir uninformed debate further.

Who's the party pooper now Drew?

[Drew]

Who's the party pooper now Drew?

Pfft, like a person making any sense would ever be listened to on here bro.

As you were.

[Drew]

Retraction time.

Re reading earlier posts, I was premature in saying that Billy's statement was questionable. I am in fact a hypocrite, disregard all I say.

[scrivy]

Pfft, like a person making any sense would ever be listened to on here bro.

Who's making sense...............?