All this Newbie BULLSHIT!!!

[justsomeguy]

Hi there,

I’ve been reading a lot of posts and I feel one aspect has been overlooked.

Let's get one thing straight. No one in this country can ride a bike on a public road until they are 15.

Yes, yes I know some of you will argue that you had not yet perfected eating solid foods and wore diapers at that age. But the majority of us had developed a pretty clear sense of right and wrong.

Now just because someone is "new" to riding a motorcycle doesn't mean that they also happen to be an innocent, clueless infant incapable of wiping the saliva off their chin.

They should know that if they ride faster than they are capable of they would fall off.

They should know that when they learnt to ride a bicycle they usually rode it a bit faster a few years after they managed to stop falling off.

They should know that they are riding for the most part with a group of strangers.

Every person who rides a motorcycle knows that they are undertaking a dangerous activity.

Thus I feel the newbies should be held responsible for their own actions.

At the end of the day it is the newbie-greenhorn-young buck-novice who is in ultimate control of his motorcycle and responsible for being aware of his/her surrounding environment.

If this were a training school and the riders were under the supervision of qualified instructors who were hired by the rider to do exactly that, then perhaps a little more responsibility may be directed at the instructors.

As one of KB’s more vocal newbies – I got my learner license on the 20<SUP>th</SUP> of Jan 2005 and have been riding mostly weekends only since December and have a lot of experience being the slowest rider of the pack – I would like to say that we should just shut up and go ride.

People know that if they cross limits there will be consequences; they are either just going to have to deal with it. Or, or (here’s an idea) not put themselves in that position in the first place.

I personally believe that whether it is a ride or a professional race the only person you have to beat is you. It doesn’t matter what speed the other rider is doing all you need to do is set a pace that is your best pace. If that happens to be faster than the person in front you will end up passing them, if it results in a slower rate of movement compared to the next person you will end up being passed. SIMPLE.

And progress doesn’t have to be speed alone, smoothness, technique, stress levels all qualify as suitable benchmarks.

[James Deuce]

There are two important facts you are overlooking.

1. What every parent of grown children, and what every male of about 40 and older learns: People under the age of 25 are immortal. It doesn't happen to them. It happens to other people. Ask yourself - do you know that you cannot guarantee that you will walk back in the door the next time you go out?

2. At age 15 brain development has not yet finished. The most common cause of angry parent/teen exchanges is because the areas of the brain that control perceptions of facial expressions and impulse control lag behind other parts. Late adolesence is characterised by mistakes such as confusing surprise with fear, concern with anger. Concious impulse control, e.g. I'm not going to wang through this corner as hard as I can because so and so does, isn't fully in the average male's grasp until 23-25.

Robert Lord Winston goes into it in great detail in the BBC series "Human Instinct", and there is also a growing body of research that confirms these theories.

Of course anyone who has ever put an army together knows the winning combination of immortality and fearless bravado in the under 25 year old, and puts it to great use in hopeless or pointless situations. Not to the under 25 year old's advantage either.

You can't expect everyone to bide by the rational mindset you've outlaid. That's why us old farts have to go on, and on, and on, and on, and on, in the vain hope that one tiny fraction of the pain we've experienced, emotional or physical, will seep through and infect a "newbie" with a sense of personal responsibility.

I remember my "yoof" as being characterised by intense selfishness. It was ALL about me man. I knew best, and the old farts were boring and had no idea.

As they say, youth is wasted on the young.

[justsomeguy]

Yes Jim2, Youth is a wonderful thing. What a crime to waste it on children.........

It is with great interest that I read your reply. For I am under 25 and I assume that you are over 25.

To answer point one of your important facts, yes I do know that I can't guarantee anything in life. I've learnt that the hard way and have used up a few of my life points in the process.

As for point two I had no idea that the average male took that long to develop those psycological aspects of their behaviour.

I do understand the young and restless analogy but the subject of conscious impulse control came as a complete surprise to me.

What I intended to discuss in my initial post was simply hazard recognition. I completely overlooked that fact that the younger we are the larger are the panes of the later Johari Windows of our psyche.

[dangerous]

People under the age of 25 are immortal. It doesn't happen to them. It happens to other people.
So true too, these newbee riders tend as a general rule to think they are bullet proof and do not relise that every 'action' has a 'reaction' and that they can do what another rider that has been riding for 20yrs can do...... na, dosent work like that.
So the younger riders need the learn, putting in there place.... it may be all in there control while out on a ride but if they take someone out then it affects every one.
I have no problem with anyone kicking another riders arse...... for doing dumb shit. :ride:

[Antallica]

Another point to note, there are a lot of newbie riders on here now. Sometimes posting on how funny it was crasing the other day etc. Sometimes I just can't be bothered browsing in the hopes of a good thread anymore.

[Will]

Another point to note, there are a lot of newbie riders on here now. Sometimes posting on how funny it was crasing the other day etc. Sometimes I just can't be bothered browsing in the hopes of a good thread anymore.


The "newbies" are on here mainly because there is no other place to network.

:grouphug: So good on them. I wish there was something like this 30 years ago. Instead we had a small group of mates to talk shit with. This network here is so much bigger and there are so many different age groups and ridersd as well as bikes. A VERY HEALTHY MIX!

Ok, I get bored with the repitition of all these new experiences going on but then if I don't like it, I either leave or put something more interesting in. :whistle:

But then of course I have got Ulysses, so this is no way a big part of my bike world. :ride:

[James Deuce]

Yes Jim2, Youth is a wonderful thing. What a crime to waste it on children.........

It is with great interest that I read your reply. For I am under 25 and I assume that you are over 25.

To answer point one of your important facts, yes I do know that I can't guarantee anything in life. I've learnt that the hard way and have used up a few of my life points in the process.

As for point two I had no idea that the average male took that long to develop those psycological aspects of their behaviour.

I do understand the young and restless analogy but the subject of conscious impulse control came as a complete surprise to me.

What I intended to discuss in my initial post was simply hazard recognition. I completely overlooked that fact that the younger we are the larger are the panes of the later Johari Windows of our psyche.





Cheers. It isn't psychology, it's actually physical brain development. There are bits of the brain that just don't develop capability as quickly as others. At 15 we've only been able to calculate trajectory, velocity, and vectors intuitively for about 5 years. Not a lot of practice to then go and throw velocities 5, to 7, to 10 times greater than what we've been practicing wth before then.

[James Deuce]

Dont you think its abit general/unfair to say that all riders under 25 dont consider consequences of their actions?..

Not fishing - just I dont feel that way about it, I know the majority do but there are (surprise) some more mature ones floating around..

No that isn't what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that the depth of understanding of the implications of those consequences is generally beyond folks in the flush of youth. This is probably a good thing for the species, because it means that the most adventurous members of the species will do some crazy things, survive and learn from it. The corollary is that quite a few of them die in ways that make people who got through the phase quite frustrated.

I count myself as having belonged to the "immortal" youth bracket, and I'm not pointing finger from on high, so to speak. I lecture from experience, because I've been resuss'ed in the back of an Ambulance repeatedly from accident site to hospital. I most definitely wasn't immortal after that experience.

[John]

No that isn't...
Sorry was referring to dangerous, and in the process I mis-interpreted his post - carry on.

[Ms Piggy]

Well we've been here and discussed all this before, only it's such an old thread I couldn't find it. I can only talk about being a "newbie" from my own personal experience of (for about 5 minutes) trying to keep up on the 1st group ride I went on - stupid idea! I'm not saying this is what all newbie riders do though and heck I'm a 33 year old woman!

However, I do think that there can be an unspoken pressure among riders that you may not even be conciously aware of to 'keep up' or ride faster.

Is an older more experienced rider responsible for the actions of a newbie on a group ride? Maybe not directly but I'd have to say I believe that indirectly they are.

Now you can't tell me you have never felt egged on by other riders to push it a little bit further than you do normally - congratulations if you haven't given in to that but I know for my part, even on my little beastie, that I have felt that pressure.

I've realised now that it's that feeling of wanting to be part of the group or keep up that causes me to make bad judgements. As a newbie it's taken me a while to get it into my head that I'm a 250cc, the guys are on 600+cc bikes, this means they go A LOT faster and have MUCH more power. Sounds obvious aye but when you're a newbie in every sense of the word it's little things like that, that I would challenge the more experienced riders to consider when on a group ride.

The group rides I always felt safest on was when there was an appointed tail end charlie. That way I knew I would never be left behind and they other riders knew that it I wouldn't get lost.

I think if you ride in a group there is a group responsibility as well as personal responsibility. To paraphrase what Dangerous said: cause and affect.

[Stevo]

[QUOTE=justsomeguy]Yes Jim2, Youth is a wonderful thing. What a crime to waste it on children.........

It is with great interest that I read your reply. For I am under 25 and I assume that you are over 25.

:killingme Just a little bit eh Jim

BTW What got up your ass JustSomeGuy? :calm: ie, Why this animosity toward newbs? Are you a hero on every ride and take off leaving everyone in your wake? Did someone complain about this? I regularly ride with both my Mrs and with SniperCBR who both ride slower than me and I ride to the pace of the slowest rider. If I want to go off at my pace I will ride by myself but sometimes I enjoy the company so why ride off without them? :spudwhat:

I just don't get what you are getting at!!! :no:

[Lou Girardin]

Personally, I don't feel responsible for anything anyone else does. (Unless I told them to do it)

[scumdog]

As Jim2 and Dangerous said, when you're young (me too - a LONG time ago!)
you have little idea of vunerability, consequence of action and little comprehension of the laws of physics.

- After all when WW1 and WW2 were going a heap of 16 & 17 year olds lied to join the army etc and yet they should have 'known' people get killed at wars.

They had that mind set that I still see- "Won't happen to me" amazing how a supposedly intelligent person would think "ah, it'll be some other poor bastard that'll get it" :no:

Then when one of their mates gets killed they all act surprised????

When you're old like me you don't think "Never happen", more like "When will it happen" when you see some form of stupidity, whether it be bikes or anything else and especially young people.

It's a fact of life and growing old JSG! :msn-wink:

[justsomeguy]

Cheers. It isn't psychology, it's actually physical brain development. There are bits of the brain that just don't develop capability as quickly as others. At 15 we've only been able to calculate trajectory, velocity, and vectors intuitively for about 5 years. Not a lot of practice to then go and throw velocities 5, to 7, to 10 times greater than what we've been practicing wth before then.

So how do the younger riders - 3-4 year olds who take up riding, go-karting, etc do it??

[ManDownUnder]

ooo I read this and I laughed - OH how I laughed...

do a quick search in Google... "Fronatl Lobes" Development and risk...

I did and found a something to take a quick look at...

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=27&did=977

... a relevant snippet...
In light of what has been learned, it seems almost arbitrary that our society has decided that a young American is ready to drive a car at 16, to vote and serve in the Army at 18 and to drink alcohol at 21. Giedd says the best estimate for when the brain is truly mature is 25, the age at which you can rent a car. "Avis must have some pretty sophisticated neuroscientists," he jokes. Now that we have scientific evidence that the adolescent brain is not quite up to scratch, some legal scholars and child advocates argue that minors should never be tried as adults and should be spared the death penalty. Last year, in an official statement that summarized current research on the adolescent brain, the American Bar Association urged all state legislatures to ban the death penalty for juveniles. "For social and biological reasons," it read, "teens have increased difficulty making mature decisions and understanding the consequences of their actions."

...
"NEXT!" *DING*
MDU

[justsomeguy]

BTW What got up your ass JustSomeGuy? :calm: ie, Why this animosity toward newbs? Are you a hero on every ride and take off leaving everyone in your wake? Did someone complain about this? I regularly ride with both my Mrs and with SniperCBR who both ride slower than me and I ride to the pace of the slowest rider. If I want to go off at my pace I will ride by myself but sometimes I enjoy the company so why ride off without them? :spudwhat:

I just don't get what you are getting at!!! :no:

NO Stevo, you've got me completely wrong. I AM A RATHER SLOW RIDING NEWBIE MYSELF.

All I meant to say is that newbies should only ride at a pace they are comfortable with.

They should not use other riders as a benchmark. They can look to them for guidance. But they should only measure themselves using thier past performance.

For example:

How consciously did *I* use counter-steering at that last corner
Did *I* focus on the vanishing point properly
Was *I* in the right gear and speed on entry and through the corner and the exit
Did *I* brake smoothly
Was *I* happy with the line I took
How smoothly did *I* perform the above?
I feel if we newbies focus on this rather than *how fast* and the tail lights of the bike in front then we should all be a lot happier.

That's my point.

[James Deuce]

So how do the younger riders - 3-4 year olds who take up riding, go-karting, etc do it??
They can do it fine. It is purely a mechanical exercise that can be learned. I wouldn't let them loose on the road though. Decision making skills, judgement, and impulse control are either nascent or non-existent. Ever notice how fearless kids that age are? Ever notice how they make the same mistake over and over? Little kids heal fast too.

[justsomeguy]

They can do it fine. It is purely a mechanical exercise that can be learned. I wouldn't let them loose on the road though. Decision making skills, judgement, and impulse control are either nascent or non-existent. Ever notice how fearless kids that age are? Ever notice how they make the same mistake over and over? Little kids heal fast too.

Ah- ha - So that's why I have to wait until I'm 25 before I can afford to insure a decent car........bl**dy insurance companies..............:mad:

......Hmmm wait a minute....... what did I just say??

So *that's* why..........(statictics, research, etc)....... r-r-r-right:yes:

[scumdog]

So how do the younger riders - 3-4 year olds who take up riding, go-karting, etc do it??

Cos a lot of it is repetetive on familar lay-outs, like playing those Nintendo games where you can figure out where you went wrong the last time you tried at that part of the game.

Public roads are not so repetetive, they have different weather conditions, sometimes you're riding in a group, sometimes by yourself, sometimes at night, sometimes in the day. etc and that's JUST on the section of road you are familiar with!!
Add unfamiliar road, unexpected appearance of tractors/stock/trucks/loose grit/potholes to the equation and you can see how the 'bullet-proof' mentality of the young can easily get some of them into trouble.

[Beemer]

I haven't been riding for that many years so don't consider myself to have vast experience or anything, but I think some people are making some generalisations about 'newbies' here. Yes, I get the feeling that a lot of them are under 25 and a lot of them may think they are 10-foot tall and bullet proof. But it would be interesting to ask the so-called newbies just how old they are and what their experience is. I met someone you guys would class as a newbie yesterday - she would be in her 40s but hasn't been riding very long. From what I witnessed of her riding, she was very safe, very aware and wasn't prepared to ride faster than the speed she was comfortable with. As for being egged on to ride faster than you want to go, hello, do you smoke, drink, take drugs just because your friends do? If the answer is yes, then wake up! If I don't want to ride at the pace of the people I am riding with, I either don't go on that ride or I tell them I'll catch up with them when they get to wherever they are going.

I have gone into corners a little fast and given myself a fright - not because I am trying to keep up with the rider in front of me (usually my husband!), but because he is a better rider than me and will brake later when going into corners. I soon realised that relying on his brake lights to tell ME when it was time to brake was a dumb move because sometimes he didn't brake at all!

And while newbies do crash, for whatever reasons, it doesn't explain why people who have been riding for years crash too - and sometimes for the same reasons - going too fast, overtaking in dangerous places, trying to keep up with the rider in front (there is always someone that bit faster), etc. I know someone who has written off three bikes in the last few years - and he's even older than me!

I take what is said on here with a grain of salt - because a lot of it is nothing more than a group of like-minded individuals talking about their exploits. Just like an overheard conversation in the pub, much of it is shit, and you need to sift the real from the imagined. We're all much better riders than the next guy and none of us will crash because only idiots crash - yeah right!

[justsomeguy]

OKKKK........this thread is starting to drift.

Now this thread isn't about measuring how bulletproof people are.

I just want to put into newbies heads that they should only measure themselves looking at their own performance. And then seek to push the limits of thier performance when they are comfortable doing so.

Apart from the obvious concessions, a group ride should be treated no different to a solo ride.

[mikey]

hi my name is mike. im an alcoholic. an i ride my bike to fast. where do i sign up for shock therapy.

[hondacmx450]

i ride fast some times iv been over 300 kph but dose that make me better than anyone else no i dont think so iv been riding for over 17 years on the road and year i think i was untouchabel but then the big smash. i ride fast still but i like to ride with ppl that r safe to them self and others

would you like to say to your mates wife i just crashed your huby off the road sorry hes dead mmm
no me eather
:ride: :niceone:

[hondacmx450]

is there a newbies tester
you know like a compresion tester
:killingme :killingme :killingme :killingme :killingme :killingme :killingme

[Lou Girardin]

hi my name is mike. im an alcoholic. an i ride my bike to fast. where do i sign up for shock therapy.

Buy a litre bike.

[Brian d marge]

Couldnt agree more Jim ...I have it to come in about 15 years time ..( the boy is 1 ) ...but but then I will be deaf and sore from bike and MX crashes ... a grumpy ole fart who cant hear ....

I wondered why my ole man looked surprised all the time ... :D

Stephen

[Paul in NZ]

You mean to say it's NOT all about me... Well I'll be danged...

Paul N

(hey - I think I just evolved a bit there - cor)

[White trash]

...(showing my age here) I went and bought a 6000km RGV250L from the friendly folk at Wellington Motorcycles.

I rode that fucken thing FULL NOISE everywhere. Overtaking on the left, centerline at 160+ on Hutt Rd.

Fell off it about 9 times in the six months over 12000km before the thing finally screamed "ENOUGH!" and chucked me off half way up the Ngauranga Gorge before cartwheeling and flying to bits at about 140kph.

Still here.

Leave the newbies alone, experiance is the only thing that teaches them, not boring old pricks who "know better".

[Holy Roller]

I haven't been riding for that many years so don't consider myself to have vast experience or anything, but I think some people are making some generalisations about 'newbies' here. Yes, I get the feeling that a lot of them are under 25 and a lot of them may think they are 10-foot tall and bullet proof. But it would be interesting to ask the so-called newbies just how old they are and what their experience is. I met someone you guys would class as a newbie yesterday - she would be in her 40s but hasn't been riding very long. From what I witnessed of her riding, she was very safe, very aware and wasn't prepared to ride faster than the speed she was comfortable with. As for being egged on to ride faster than you want to go, hello, do you smoke, drink, take drugs just because your friends do? If the answer is yes, then wake up! If I don't want to ride at the pace of the people I am riding with, I either don't go on that ride or I tell them I'll catch up with them when they get to wherever they are going.

I have gone into corners a little fast and given myself a fright - not because I am trying to keep up with the rider in front of me (usually my husband!), but because he is a better rider than me and will brake later when going into corners. I soon realised that relying on his brake lights to tell ME when it was time to brake was a dumb move because sometimes he didn't brake at all!

And while newbies do crash, for whatever reasons, it doesn't explain why people who have been riding for years crash too - and sometimes for the same reasons - going too fast, overtaking in dangerous places, trying to keep up with the rider in front (there is always someone that bit faster), etc. I know someone who has written off three bikes in the last few years - and he's even older than me!

I take what is said on here with a grain of salt - because a lot of it is nothing more than a group of like-minded individuals talking about their exploits. Just like an overheard conversation in the pub, much of it is shit, and you need to sift the real from the imagined. We're all much better riders than the next guy and none of us will crash because only idiots crash - yeah right!


Well said
Not every one will see the key to enjoying a long riding career. I guess that most of my riding is solo and therefor I ride at my pace and ability. Lately have been on a number of group rides and fortunatley there are others who ride in my zone (read semi nana) others go ahead and wait for us to catch up. After nearly 28 yrs of riding I am not wanting to suffer any more pain due to my foolishness. There is always the unexpected situation that may crop up but the sky may also fall on my head will have to deal with that when it happens (read drunk drivers writting ones bike off).
I've been young and foolish, lived like there was no tomorrow, known the odds and gone out to beat them. I've had a heap of fun, scared the c**p out of myself more than once, attended mates funerals but I still ride alot more sedate now ( still laspe into loonancy on occassion and afterwards wonder why I did that). Now I have a bike that I can't throw around or go too fast on I am more awear of my limitations. Here's to many a year on the road :ride: and to meeting up fellow bikers

[NC]

...(showing my age here) I went and bought a 6000km RGV250L from the friendly folk at Wellington Motorcycles.

I rode that fucken thing FULL NOISE everywhere. Overtaking on the left, centerline at 160+ on Hutt Rd.

Fell off it about 9 times in the six months over 12000km before the thing finally screamed "ENOUGH!" and chucked me off half way up the Ngauranga Gorge before cartwheeling and flying to bits at about 140kph.

Still here.

Leave the newbies alone, experiance is the only thing that teaches them, not boring old pricks who "know better".
Sometimes they only get one chance.

[White trash]

Sometimes they only get one chance.

Sure do.

But if they didn't realise riding bikes was dangerous and had the very real probability of going wrong in a big way at some stage, would they even get into it?

Would you have?

[Sensei]

Let those that Ride decide be it a Newbee or Expert !

[onearmedbandit]

Experience is the best educator, not others telling you. I learnt the same way WT did, still here but minus the use of one arm. Constant reminder of my own mortality...

[Lou Girardin]

...(showing my age here) I went and bought a 6000km RGV250L from the friendly folk at Wellington Motorcycles.

I rode that fucken thing FULL NOISE everywhere. Overtaking on the left, centerline at 160+ on Hutt Rd.

Fell off it about 9 times in the six months over 12000km before the thing finally screamed "ENOUGH!" and chucked me off half way up the Ngauranga Gorge before cartwheeling and flying to bits at about 140kph.

Still here.

Leave the newbies alone, experiance is the only thing that teaches them, not boring old pricks who "know better".

While I object to the "protect people from themselves" philosophy that is so popular now, you've got to admit that the only reason you're here to post this is luck. Probably the same luck that has saved my sorry arse so often.

[Stevo]

NO Stevo, you've got me completely wrong. I AM A RATHER SLOW RIDING NEWBIE MYSELF.

All I meant to say is that newbies should only ride at a pace they are comfortable with.

They should not use other riders as a benchmark. They can look to them for guidance. But they should only measure themselves using thier past performance.

For example:

How consciously did *I* use counter-steering at that last corner
Did *I* focus on the vanishing point properly
Was *I* in the right gear and speed on entry and through the corner and the exit
Did *I* brake smoothly
Was *I* happy with the line I took
How smoothly did *I* perform the above?
I feel if we newbies focus on this rather than *how fast* and the tail lights of the bike in front then we should all be a lot happier.

That's my point.
My apologies to you then. I really did get where you were coming from right up the screw. I read your initial post a few times, but obviously still got it wrong.
Any how life goes on................

[ManDownUnder]

Sure do.

But if they didn't realise riding bikes was dangerous and had the very real probability of going wrong in a big way at some stage, would they even get into it?

Would you have?

Possibly not - but then as an 8 year old I didn't have the same (if any) perception of danger. I was bullet proof... you fall down - you get hurt - maybe even cry. Then you have another go!

Something worth adding to the list of things to be considered are the others around you. On the track you expect people heading in the same direction to be travelling at speed. On the road there is a similar expectation set up so if I check to turn left, no-one there and I proceed to turn left, someone flying up the inside will be run into sending both you and I down the road.

I promise to be concerned about your health and I'll help if I can, but the next day will be a different story because I'll be dragging your sorry arse through the most painful process you can imagine.

I'll want your licence cancelled

I'll want full reparation for everything I lost (including the no claims bonus I'll have lost due to you insurer not covering you on the road at 140kph)

I'll want to reclaim the interest I lost on the money I lost as it would have been paying my mortgage.

I'll want you to pay full medical expenses

I'll want you to pay for any replacement transport vehicle I need to use while I continue to work without my bike

If I am unable to work I'll want you to pay the extra 20% of my wages that ACC won't cover.

And on top of all of that - I'll be right royally pissed at you.

Don't get me wrong - I'm actually a nice guy. But I don't suffer fools, and I believe in laying the burdon on the person deserving of it.

I think I've said enough - time for a happy pill...:D
MDU

[scumdog]

Experience is the best educator, not others telling you. I learnt the same way WT did, still here but minus the use of one arm. Constant reminder of my own mortality...

Also you can learn from OTHERS experience and try not to make the same cock-ups they do. (If you saw your mates reaction when he pissed on a live electric fence would you go ahead and do it too just to gain 'personal' experience???) :msn-wink:

[dangerous]

Still here.

Leave the newbies alone, experiance is the only thing that teaches them, not boring old pricks who "know better".

You like me have been bloody lucky, Flyin and a few of my mates sure as fuk wernt........... Now several riders on the Auckers ride last w/e were bloody lucky aswell a couple crossed the road which could have ended in 'bad shit'
So us 'boring old pricks' that 'know better' need to keep on the heals of the newbies.

Now I'm not giving the newbies shit here, but rather wanting to see them live too they are older than me and still injoying there mates and bikes.... case in example:
A KB ride last year ended up with a young fella taking a cruise in a meat wagon (he was lucky that he did, not in a hearse as he ended up in the bushes on the 'other' side of the rd)..... a month later he rides with KBers again, I was told that he was passing on yellows and in blind corners..... dumb fuk learnt nothing..... so if we ride togeather again..... I will be laying the law down, I "never" want to see a mate in two pieces again.

If I seem to be "picking" on the newbies...... I make no opoligies, but yes WT.... learning from experiance 'is' the best way providing ya dont die first :niceone:

[Skyryder]

From what I see posted on KB is that us older riders on occasions take it upon ourselves to give advice on some aspect of riding. It should not be taken as a criticism but in the spirit the advice was given; freely and with the best of intentions from one biker to another. The bottom line here guys if you want to ride outside your limits do so on your own, (I say with tounge in cheek) but in a group ride if you try and keep up with the fastest riders just cause your ego can not handle rear-end-itis then not only are you putting your self at risk but others also. Ego's are to be left behind at the last stop. Don't try and pack it as a pillion, it's the most dangerous back seat driver around.

Skyryder

PS Dangerous Good post.

[Zapf]

I give new riders advices and shit when it is due. I do it because I would hate to see bad things happen to them.

I consider myself a reasonable rider, not great, not fast..... just getting there type. Looking back I was a N00B back August last year.... so memory of my N00B experience is still very fresh... I remember about crossing the centerline a few times, I remember OH SHIT moments on 22. All in all I am here and will be helping all those that would like a better and less accident prone new biking experience.

TS did a great job with Mr.Skid and me. Did a awesome job at leading us and showing us the lines, he could have been screaming it up the front with the boys... but he didn't. All I want is to follow on the fine examples of what KB and TS did, so everyone can have a safe and fun time.

Look I am 26 ok.... so I see both sides of where you guys are all coming from.

[justsomeguy]

I give new riders advices and shit when it is due. I do it because I would hate to see bad things happen to them.


yaa dees bsatrad haas geevum mii shaite eaps-o-thymes......:mad:

[MadDuck]

You know what the heck pees me off about this whole episode? No well I am going to tell you if you like it or not! It wasnt just new riders that got into trouble.

We had an experienced rider (Sorry SawnMan) but for frigs sake. We all make mistakes and we have one experienced rider who crashed on the same day.

Do we see the same hype and crap going on about his bin? HELL NO cos we have to trash the new riders. WTF...please someone give me a reasonable reason as to why (I say reasonable)! I dont give a toss who led the ride or who did what. We ride bikes and we have a license.

[justsomeguy]

You know what the heck pees me off about this whole episode? No well I am going to tell you if you like it or not! It wasnt just new riders that got into trouble.

We had an experienced rider (Sorry SawnMan) but for frigs sake. We all make mistakes and we have one experienced rider who crashed on the same day.

Do we see the same hype and crap going on about his bin? HELL NO cos we have to trash the new riders. WTF...please someone give me a reasonable reason as to why (I say reasonable)! I dont give a toss who led the ride or who id what. We ride bikes and we have a license.

If the riders were using their own performance as the basis of judging their pace then no one would have crashed. The reason why everyone crashed was cos they were all pushing it. Simple.

[MadDuck]

I think you missed my point JSG.

I am kinda on the level that why the heck are the newer riders getting a hard time when one of our more experienced riders made a big mistake the same day. Swanny pushed it and he has all the sympathy in the world. BUT hell accidents happen new rider or old rider. Why are we suddenly picking on our newer riders? I just dont get it

[justsomeguy]

I think you missed my point JSG.

I am kinda on the level that why the heck are the newer riders getting a hard time when one of our more experienced riders made a big mistake the same day. Swanny pushed it and he has all the sympathy in the world. BUT hell accidents happen new rider or old rider. Why are we suddenly picking on our newer riders? I just dont get it

Cos swanny knew what he was doing. The new guys didn't.


We just want to raise the general awareness among the new riders like myself. Because when you are new everything is a virgin experience and sometimes we(newbies) can get too hasty in trying to get better.

[Ixion]

You know what the heck pees me off about this whole episode? No well I am going to tell you if you like it or not! It wasnt just new riders that got into trouble.

We had an experienced rider (Sorry SawnMan) but for frigs sake. We all make mistakes and we have one experienced rider who crashed on the same day.

Do we see the same hype and crap going on about his bin? HELL NO cos we have to trash the new riders. WTF...please someone give me a reasonable reason as to why (I say reasonable)! I dont give a toss who led the ride or who did what. We ride bikes and we have a license.

Well, I'll try for an explanation.

An experienced rider knows his limits and his bike's.

If HE crashes, it's either Act of God, or because he, knowingly, decided to push outside his limits. As several posters have said , for those riders "you are responsible for riding within your limits. If you push outside them and crash, on your head be it". So if an experienced rider crashes his fellows shake their heads, point jeering fingers (provided it's not tragic) and say "f**ked up, didn't you"

But it's different when a new rider crashes. He doesn't crash because he knowingly and voluntarily decided to push outside the limit of his skills.

He doesn't know what those limits are. He doesn't know how to recover if it all goes lavender. His crash is the result of inexperience and lack of road craft.

The experienced rider makes a call that he knows may end up him crashing . The novice has absolutely no intention of crashing. I don't for a moment believe that in any of those novice crashes, the rider envisaged it turning out as it did.

So the more experienced riders feel a responsibility to help and guide the beginners (they feel no such responsibility toward their experienced collegues - they should be able to look out for themselves) . They feel bad because if one crashes they feel that their guidance has failed. Hence the anger directed at some of the experienced guys .

I don't think anyone has trashed the novices (those who crashed or those who did not). People are alarmed and upset that young riders have been placed in a situation where their lack of experience could easily have killed them (especially with the recent tragedy so fresh in mind)

They point out (perhaps harshly, but these are bikers not Sunday School teachers) that the behaviour that led to the crash was stupid .

Where anyone has gone beyond that to actually bag the person involved, I think in every case they have apologised.

This is a community. Like all communities there is a collegiate acceptance of responsibility to look out for the vulnerable. That the new riders had licences is quite irrelevant, that is only of interest to the police. Presumably they didn't have full licences ? So their licence class itself indicates that they are inexperienced and deserve assistance guidance and protection. That's what the community is about. If anyone feels that is somehow demeaning (I can't see why because everyone starts some time, and I know personally that I am always keen for advice from more experienced or skilled riders), then they don't have to belong to the community.

I hope this helps.

[MadDuck]

hmmmmmmmmm Swanny knew what he was doing. OK..... Yes we saw evidence of that a dead R1...I wish I had that talent. I am sure he wont mind me saying that cos he has a sense of humour

The lesson is it dosent matter how experienced you are. There will always be mistakes made. So why isolate a particular group. I am backing you up here JSG go with it

[justsomeguy]

hmmmmmmmmm Swanny knew what he was doing. OK..... Yes we saw evidence of that a dead R1...I wish I had that talent. I am sure he wont mind me saying that cos he has a sense of humour

The lesson is it dosent matter how experienced you are. There will always be mistakes made. So why isolate a particular group. I am backing you up here JSG go with it

Thanks Madduck.

I think Ixion just said very articulately what I was trying to.

[justsomeguy]

Well, I'll try for an explanation.........I hope this helps.

Post number 888 for you.....:Punk:

[MadDuck]

Ixion do you sleep ? like at all ?

[Ixion]

Ixion do you sleep ? like at all ?
Of course. What do you imagine I do all day at work (waking up at intervals to check KB of course)

[Pixie]

Well, I'll try for an explanation.

An experienced rider knows his limits and his bike's.
He doesn't know what those limits are. He doesn't know how to recover if it all goes lavender. His crash is the result of inexperience and lack of road craft.
.
I agree ,the hard part is discovering what those limits are.
Sometimes it hurts.
And ,generally one needs to findout for oneself what the limits are,because there is often a lot of wrong/mis information.

[James Deuce]

Really good post Ixion, and this is definitely my intention when I pipe up.

However, I think the general gist is that we are supposed to shut up and let them make their mistakes.

[Skyryder]

I agree ,the hard part is discovering what those limits are.
Sometimes it hurts.
And ,generally one needs to findout for oneself what the limits are,because there is often a lot of wrong/mis information.

The limits might be difficult to define but we all know when it has been crossed. Then it is down to luck because if shit happens there's no way you're going to flush it away.


Skyryder

[Wenier]

2. At age 15 brain development has not yet finished. The most common cause of angry parent/teen exchanges is because the areas of the brain that control perceptions of facial expressions and impulse control lag behind other parts. Late adolesence is characterised by mistakes such as confusing surprise with fear, concern with anger. Concious impulse control, e.g. I'm not going to wang through this corner as hard as I can because so and so does, isn't fully in the average male's grasp until 23-25.


I think your wrong there as i reckon its not the age but the person themselves. I am 19 and have realised that i cant jus go wang through corners, infact i learnt that a while ago. I also realised that a 600 is plenty for the road not like when i was 17 and thought fuck anything but 1000cc. i mean shit 1000cc is only .01secs faster to 100kph usually than a 600cc. Now if i realised that at 17 it should point to the fact that its the person and HOW they think not the age that makes them do stupid things like cornering too fast or passing with not enough time.

Jus my opinion.

[James Deuce]

I think your wrong there as i reckon its not the age but the person themselves. I am 19 and have realised that i cant jus go wang through corners, infact i learnt that a while ago. I also realised that a 600 is plenty for the road not like when i was 17 and thought fuck anything but 1000cc. i mean shit 1000cc is only .01secs faster to 100kph usually than a 600cc. Now if i realised that at 17 it should point to the fact that its the person and HOW they think not the age that makes them do stupid things like cornering too fast or passing with not enough time.

Jus my opinion.

Biologically your brain (remember this is a generalisation, but the reality is that there are very few people that develop physically earlier or later on the bell curve) hasn't finished developing. You can go look up any recent neuro sciences textbook or web page you want.

It has nothing to do with reasoning or intelligence or perceived maturity. Very few people avoid having pointless teenage spats with their parents that cause lasting issues for ongoing relationships on a parent child basis. This is part of the biological process of separating from your parental units. The things I am saying were divined by people with much bigger brains than mine. Robert Winston is but one populist mouthpiece for these theories, though he is a seriously academically equipped Human Development specialist. You should probably take it up with him.

[sedge]

If you are on a ride with new riders assign a sweeper. Their job is to sacrifice any over exuberant riding and hang back to let the (perhaps) less comfortable riders know that they don't have to keep up with the pack and no-one will feel bad coz they are keeping mr slow company.

It's pack mentality...

The trick is knowing just how far to hang back, you don't want to damp the fun, but you need to be sure that everyone is happy at the speed they are going.

I whole heartedly subscribe to this and have been mr slow on occaision, it wont hurt you too much and the uncomfortable (for now) riders appreciate it.

Sedge.

[Gazzar]

Thanks for posting the BRONZ RIDE RIGHT it would be good to do for a new biker and remember there is a TRACK DAY IN TAUPO on the 18\12\05 run by FROSTY.
I normally would not say this but you JSG have sad that you did the bronz ride right and it was good for experience.
I started rideing in the 80s i road for about 9 years untell a mate lost a leg in a bike crash. I started rideing again last year so you could call me a newbie.
I have never had a rider {JSG } pass me on the out side of a blind corner before in my life and i was not the only one that it happend to on that ride.
I think all newbies will learn bad things seeing this type of SHIT on group rides so pass properly as this dosn't look good for the bronz ride right test you did.
To all please ride safe. :grouphug:
Gary :ride:

[justsomeguy]

Thanks for posting the BRONZ RIDE RIGHT it would be good to do for a new biker and remember there is a TRACK DAY IN TAUPO on the 18\12\05 run by FROSTY.
I normally would not say this but you JSG have sad that you did the bronz ride right and it was good for experience.
I started rideing in the 80s i road for about 9 years untell a mate lost a leg in a bike crash. I started rideing again last year so you could call me a newbie.
I have never had a rider {JSG } pass me on the out side of a blind corner before in my life and i was not the only one that it happend to on that ride.
I think all newbies will learn bad things seeing this type of SHIT on group rides so pass properly as this dosn't look good for the bronz ride right test you did.
To all please ride safe. :grouphug:
Gary :ride:

Hi Gazzar,

I'm not really fast and I only have front brakes at the moment so was riding pretty carefully..... you sure it was me that passed you like that??

Yelow graphic helmet on a black ZZR250 with a smashed up right hand side??

I apologise for any concern I've caused.

I am only advertising the BRONZ course as I feel it is something the newbies should do and for 45 it is great value.

[eliot-ness]

White Trash. If you knew of a 16 years old car driver who had 9 crashes in 6 months would you say "he's gaining experience, leave him alone"???? Attitudes
like your's are one of the reasons so many parents are against letting their kids have bikes. I insisted my own sons had bikes before cars but only after riding school lessons. Result, neither have had accidents, on bikes or in cars. Experience of falling off is easily and painfully gained. Bravado is like a power tool from the Wharehouse. Cheap but not impressive.

"Boring old prick with 50 years "experience"
"There are old bikers and bold bikers, but not many old, bold bikers"

[Lou Girardin]

White Trash. If you knew of a 16 years old car driver who had 9 crashes in 6 months would you say "he's gaining experience, leave him alone"???? Attitudes
like your's are one of the reasons so many parents are against letting their kids have bikes. I insisted my own sons had bikes before cars but only after riding school lessons. Result, neither have had accidents, on bikes or in cars. Experience of falling off is easily and painfully gained. Bravado is like a power tool from the Wharehouse. Cheap but not impressive.

"Boring old prick with 50 years "experience"
"There are old bikers and bold bikers, but not many old, bold bikers"

True, but you can't tell young ones anything, just like our parents couldn't tell us.

[dangerous]

just like our parents couldn't tell us.
Yeah they could...... told me heaps a shit....... dosent mean I listened to a word of it tho :Punk:

[Stevo]

Yeah they could...... told me heaps a shit....... dosent mean I listened to a word of it tho :Punk:
Go on! Ya just prob needed to hear it 3,4 or 5 times like the rest of us before it actually sunk in though huh?
Then it was like Farrrrrk. The old man DID know what he was on about when ya do eff it up! :killingme