Emergency braking

[p.dath]

Seems like weeks since we had the last emergency braking thread. So I have decided to create a BLOG entry that I can simply quote for this regular upcoming thread.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/entry.php/1453-Motorcycle-Emergency-Braking

So what do you think of it?

[CookMySock]

Add a disclaimer. The document is about a newbie and his search for balance.

Alternatively, link to authoritive sources.

Steve

[p.dath]

Add a disclaimer. The document is about a newbie and his search for balance.

Alternatively, link to authoritive sources.

Steve

I've linked to several authoritative sources, and the site already has a disclaimer.

[Jonno.]

The most important thing I recon is to find out how hard you can brake. When I first started biking I was really scared of locking the front and as a result I had a few close calls while, what I thought was still heavily braking. After figuring out I can brake twice as hard as I thought, my emergency stop had gone to about 75% of what it was.

[Urano]

interesting, and with good intentions.
we are more on the "usa school" side, and on the italian riders forums you can find two very good documents "ride safe" and "brakin point" written by a rider called "il Principe Brutto" (the ugly prince).
there is explained pretty well how to perform an emergency brake and how to survive in our congested cities on two wheels.
unfortunately, despite their english titles, are both in italian.
i don't have time/will to translate now, but it my intention to it sooner or later: i hope it will help, someway...

long made short, there are 3 important thing on braking:
1- learn how to lock the front wheel, so you can avoid to do that.
2- in the emergency start always with the rear one, even if for a half of a second it will weight up the front fork, and the front brake will not lock (or it will only in a very worse situation)
3- don't fixate on the target. search always for a way out, quite always going in the direction of the obstacle even if it would appear counter instinctive...

[p.dath]

The most important thing I recon is to find out how hard you can brake. When I first started biking I was really scared of locking the front and as a result I had a few close calls while, what I thought was still heavily braking. After figuring out I can brake twice as hard as I thought, my emergency stop had gone to about 75% of what it was.

Do you know of any techniques around practising locking and releasing the front? I think locking the front wheel tends to be easier on a long wheel base bike, and harder on a short wheelbase (like a sports bike) ... reason below.

I didn't mention it in the article, but another one of the reasons some countries teach engaging the rear brake first is because it starts weight transferrng to the front wheel - and the probability of a front wheel lock occurring is related to the amount of weight on that wheel. The more weight on the front wheel the harder it is to lock it up.

[p.dath]

interesting, and with good intentions.
we are more on the "usa school" side, and on the italian riders forums you can find two very good documents "ride safe" and "brakin point" written by a rider called "il Principe Brutto" (the ugly prince).


You'll be interested to know that they have now changed the NZ motorcycle road code to say to engage the front brake first, like the UK. Why they made this change I don't know.

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadcode/motorcycle-road-code/you-and-your-motorcycle/controlling-your-motorcycle.html
(under the braking tips section)

[Urano]

interesting read, thanks. :niceone:
a bit... "strange" anyway...
i can't understand in what way it could be useful for a beginner to read that "new bike get in the turn TOO quickly". too respect WHAT? and a new bike with a flatten tyre will lean at the same speed? and one with a back tyre of 190 vs one with 140?
and my elbows have be in the same position if i ride a gs1200 and a ninja?

and, concerning the braking tips, good to say to both the brakes, bad (imho) to say to use the front first, better to say to take safe drive instructions: always the best thing to do if you have doubt....

and then it talks of countersteering, which is actually something a bit unusual to say to a beginner...
and it says to use the back brake to start uphill?????:shit: it would be acceptable if for "hill" they think at a pedestrian passage, but it's pretty dangerous to learn such things without disclaiming...
the "safe riding tips" on the other hand it's pretty good talkin about the vision and the eye movement...

[ZX12R Hoon]

Consider that the crux of the matter is "EMERGENCY", whatever works quickest is best. Throttle - Front - Clutch - Rear - Gears is the sequence. THROTTLE off (pretty obvious), FRONT start braking but not too hard because you want the weight coming forward to increase the patch of rubber in contact with the road and not enough to start the front wheel skidding, CLUTCH because you are now about to apply the rear brake and because there's very little weight left on the rear if you brake before you in-clutch you'll stall the engine, REAR just enough to get some braking but not enough to skid, (by now the bike is sitting hard down on the front wheel and you can drive some real force into the front brake and as it slows down keep driving the force in), GEARS because at some stage you may have bled enough speed off to get control and escape the car bearing down on you from behind and you need to be in the correct gear not to stall the engine. Simple really. Now practice it till it works automatically because if you don't you'll probably not get another chance. Doing this will reduce the braking distance by up to half compared to the "normal" uncoordinated braking and by at least three quarters if you were to try braking with only the rear (as some do)

[p.dath]

Consider that the crux of the matter is "EMERGENCY", whatever works quickest is best. Throttle - Front - Clutch - Rear - Gears is the sequence. THROTTLE off (pretty obvious), FRONT start braking but not too hard because you want the weight coming forward to increase the patch of rubber in contact with the road and not enough to start the front wheel skidding, CLUTCH because you are now about to apply the rear brake and because there's very little weight left on the rear if you

So your from the UK school of thought? It almost sounds like you recited that out of a book. :)

While your approach works fine in lots of cases it doesn't work the best for all riders and all types of road bikes, as I say in the article. If you have a pillion and a bike with a long wheel base you may well find that it detracts from the shortest stopping distance as your failing to take advantge of the additional weight on the rear tyre. Then again, it may not. It's a matter of trying it.

For example, have you considered that some bikes can brake harder with the front brake if you apply the rear brake first - because the friction is increased on the front wheel because of the early weight transfer, which also reduces the likelihood of a front wheel lock?

[FROSTY]

Meanwhile whilst ya calculating all this stuff in ya head and weighing up the options--Youve plowwed into the back of that bus that just swung in front of ya.
Even imperfect tecnique for that bike applied early enough is a shit load better than spending a couple of seconds thinking about it.
Gettin yer arse out there and practicing is whats gonna save ya

[p.dath]

Meanwhile whilst ya calculating all this stuff in ya head and weighing up the options--Youve plowwed into the back of that bus that just swung in front of ya.
Even imperfect tecnique for that bike applied early enough is a shit load better than spending a couple of seconds thinking about it.
Gettin yer arse out there and practicing is whats gonna save ya

Almost my exact words Frosty.


I can tell you though that you need to select a method that you can execute without thinking. You must be able to do it second nature. When in an emergency your brain is likely to be overloaded. Fear can easily consume 90% of your cognitive thinking power.

[ZX12R Hoon]

So your from the UK school of thought? It almost sounds like you recited that out of a book. :)

While your approach works fine in lots of cases it doesn't work the best for all riders and all types of road bikes, as I say in the article. If you have a pillion and a bike with a long wheel base you may well find that it detracts from the shortest stopping distance as your failing to take advantge of the additional weight on the rear tyre. Then again, it may not. It's a matter of trying it.

For example, have you considered that some bikes can brake harder with the front brake if you apply the rear brake first - because the friction is increased on the front wheel because of the early weight transfer, which also reduces the likelihood of a front wheel lock?

I've written it as I know it, I know it because I was taught it by a very accomplished motorcycle trainer, I use it because it works and I've used it with a number of different bikes, including a ZX12R and a Heritage Soft tail .
With your comment re the rear brake, there is nothing that will get the weight transfer to the front as quickly as the front brake. It defies logic to suggest the rear will get the weight on the front faster.
If you start with the rear brake you are wasting precious time, in all cases with all bikes.

[p.dath]

If you start with the rear brake you are wasting precious time, in all cases with all bikes.

I would have to disagree with you on this one, and apart from the study of some 800 odd emergency braking tests I cited, I'll give you my own personal experience.

I've done numerous emergency braking sessions, and I can repeatedly pull up shorter stopping distances by engaging the rear brake first. But that's my experience - your own experiments (I hope you've done some experiments) have yielded a different result for you and your bike - and that result is just as valid.

Please don't accept the "opinion" of someone just because they are an "expert". You'll find many "experts" have opposing opinions on this matter.

I've helped another rider that repeatedly pulled up shorter distances using the front brake first. That's work worked best for them, so I told them to keep practising that.


But your comment that "If you start with the rear brake you are wasting precious time, in all cases with all bikes" is plain well wrong. Absolutely wrong. Perhaps read the first study I cited if only to consider their might be alternative solutions for bikes and riders different from yourself.

[Urano]

i completely agree with p.dath.

in regard of the word "emergency" that's the whole point.
i can bet anything that nobody on this earth (excludin' maybe Colin, Ben, Valentino and some other not get full a hand fingers) lookin' the type-ball crossing your way with the type-baby running after it, NOBODY will brake the front "not to much cause i'm waiting the fork to weight".
it will NOT happen.
you, my friends, are all going to squeeze that damn lever till blood will pour from your right hand.
and more of this, it that very moment you're going to forget AT ALL the sand you've seen on the tarmac a second before, or the oil paddle or the leaf, or the cigarette package, making considerations like "well let's brake a bit less because of the fallen leaves"... given that you saw it, of course...
that's a fact.
and, is not the case to remember it, as soon as you'll pull the lever so quickly that the wheel is not weighted it will lock after half a second, loosing grip and more than that loosing completely any gyroscopic effect, and you'll find yourself trying to balance while drifting on a 200 kg block of steel on an ice floor.

the only, and repeat only, way you have to get a possibility to the weight the front wheel a bit more, and hopefully enough not to lock it, is to pound with your desperation the back brake instead of the front: it will lock quite immediately, but the front fork will be pressed down and maybe the front wheel will keep you standing right, when half a second after your are going to brake it. and beside this, after all, if you have more weight on the back wheel (like someone on the saddle with you) it will give a bit more brakin' power.
and if the back is locked, well, who cares, but if the front is locked, you're on the ground sliding on the last direction you had toward that baby.
the clutch is to be pulled as soon as possible, not to keeping engine draggin you ahead, and this will get absolutely unimportant to close the throttle, even if you'll probably close it instinctively...

that's why you have to build up an automatic reflex to use the back first, because in emergency you'll go on the automatic, not on the consideration on "how much can i pull the front not to lock it".

what to learn from this?
1- think in advance: look BELOW buses, trying to see the legs of someone who's going to come out; look at the reflex on the cars doors, to see the light of a scooter from the parking; look inside the car cabin (is "cabin" the word?maybe cockpit?) to see if someone is going to open the door haven't seen you coming...
2- take your space, in front, lateral and behind you.
3- look around.
4 buy a bike with the abs. :D

[Urano]

i completely agree with p.dath.

in regard of the word "emergency" that's the whole point.
i can bet anything that nobody on this earth (excludin' maybe Colin, Ben, Valentino and some other not get full a hand fingers) lookin' the type-ball crossing your way with the type-baby running after it, NOBODY will brake the front "not to much cause i'm waiting the fork to weight".
it will NOT happen.
you, my friends, are all going to squeeze that damn lever till blood will pour from your right hand.
and more of this, it that very moment you're going to forget AT ALL the sand you've seen on the tarmac a second before, or the oil paddle or the leaf, or the cigarette package, making considerations like "well let's brake a bit less because of the fallen leaves"... given that you saw it, of course...
that's a fact.
and, is not the case to remember it, as soon as you'll pull the lever so quickly that the wheel is not weighted it will lock after half a second, loosing grip and more than that loosing completely any gyroscopic effect, and you'll find yourself trying to balance while drifting on a 200 kg block of steel on an ice floor.

the only, and repeat only, way you have to get a possibility to the weight the front wheel a bit more, and hopefully enough not to lock it, is to pound with your desperation the back brake instead of the front: it will lock quite immediately, but the front fork will be pressed down and maybe the front wheel will keep you standing right, when half a second after your are going to brake it. and beside this, after all, if you have more weight on the back wheel (like someone on the saddle with you) it will give a bit more brakin' power.
and if the back is locked, well, who cares, but if the front is locked, you're on the ground sliding on the last direction you had toward that baby.
the clutch is to be pulled as soon as possible, not to keeping engine draggin you ahead, and this will get absolutely unimportant to close the throttle, even if you'll probably close it instinctively...

that's why you have to build up an automatic reflex to use the back first, because in emergency you'll go on the automatic, not on the consideration on "how much can i pull the front not to lock it".

what to learn from this?
1- think in advance: look BELOW buses, trying to see the legs of someone who's going to come out; look at the reflex on the cars doors, to see the light of a scooter from the parking; look inside the car cabin (is "cabin" the word?maybe cockpit?) to see if someone is going to open the door haven't seen you coming...
2- take your space, in front, lateral and behind you.
3- look around.
4 buy a bike with the abs. :D

[FROSTY]

sorry Urano I dissagree with you. I'm not rossi et al But what I do have is a few years experience riding. I'm fortunate in that I get to ride a lot of different bikes in all sorts of situations.-Road,offroad,track.
If on an unfamiliar bike about the first thing I do is see how it reacts under brakes.
I can tell you for a FACT in a serious need to brake situation I do load up the front before hauling the brakes on hard.
I'm no friggin superman nor do I fancy myself as a riding god. But what I do do is PRACTICE. 30 plus years of riding and still I practice the brakes.

[george formby]

sorry Urano I dissagree with you. I'm not rossi et al But what I do have is a few years experience riding. I'm fortunate in that I get to ride a lot of different bikes in all sorts of situations.-Road,offroad,track.
If on an unfamiliar bike about the first thing I do is see how it reacts under brakes.
I can tell you for a FACT in a serious need to brake situation I do load up the front before hauling the brakes on hard.
I'm no friggin superman nor do I fancy myself as a riding god. But what I do do is PRACTICE. 30 plus years of riding and still I practice the brakes.

Yup, test the stoppers first.
I bet you also have a "feel" for what is happening when you really brake hard. Keeping the bike up & steering either through the bars or sliding the rear to turn a lot faster, keeping your weight vertical over the bike as it wallows under the brakes & turning forces. Looking where you want to go & using all those years of experience to get their rather than fixating on the hazard. Performed in the blink of an eye.
I think learning to ride on an old dunger while still young & dumb is the best way to get that "feel". After a certain age for the rider & price bracket for bike's, risking an off by locking up the brakes or throwing the bike around to much while practising becomes very unappealing.
Bike braking is a vague science, the single biggest factor is reacting in the most suitable way for the hazard. Purely rider skill & bike awareness.

[Urano]

sorry Urano I dissagree with you.

well... it a free world :niceone:
after all the best is what makes you feel safer.
i'm on the balance from about 15 years, i've done my falls, i've learned from tarmac and from other riders.
i found that building up such reaction helped in more situations, and i'm really sure i could not manage a front braking action suitable for all street and weather situations without preparation of the rear one.
maybe is that i have more practice to do.
when i'll be as experienced as you are i'll probably agree with you: by now take my words as a newbe speech... :)

[george formby]

well... it a free world :niceone:
after all the best is what makes you feel safer.
i'm on the balance from about 15 years, i've done my falls, i've learned from tarmac and from other riders.
i found that building up such reaction helped in more situations, and i'm really sure i could not manage a front braking action suitable for all street and weather situations without preparation of the rear one.
maybe is that i have more practice to do.
when i'll be as experienced as you are i'll probably agree with you: by now take my words as a newbe speech... :)

I guess after a few years riding we all develop techniques which work for our bikes & ourselves. Being here means that we are also still learning & hopefully, still have open minds.

[ZX12R Hoon]

that's why you have to build up an automatic reflex to use the back first, because in emergency you'll go on the automatic, not on the consideration on "how much can i pull the front not to lock it".

4 buy a bike with the abs. :D[/QUOTE]

Mate, honestly. Buy a car before you need someone to buy a coffin for you.

[MotoKuzzi]

Instinctively for me it would be Front ( start loading ) / Clutch and rear brake simultaneously / start stomping down the gears, clutch still pulled in and increasing pressure on the front as i'm looking at closing distance ahead. Then again there ain't much chance of locking my front brake without tearing the lever off its perch.:shit:

[p.dath]

Instinctively for me it would be Front ( start loading ) / Clutch and rear brake simultaneously / start stomping down the gears, clutch still pulled in and increasing pressure on the front as i'm looking at closing distance ahead. Then again there ain't much chance of locking my front brake without tearing the lever off its perch.:shit:

As a matter of interest, you stomp down the gears without engaging the engine again, so you can "escape" at the end?

[Urano]

4 buy a bike with the abs. :D
Mate, honestly. Buy a car before you need someone to buy a coffin for you.

don't see smileys, so i have to suppose you are serious.

1- i really hope to avoid that need.

2- do you think abs is a bad thing on a bike?

[p.dath]

don't see smileys, so i have to suppose you are serious.

1- i really hope to avoid that need.

2- do you think abs is a bad thing on a bike?

Considering the dangers of a front wheel lock while emergency braking, I think ABS is a "good thing" (tm).

[MotoKuzzi]

As a matter of interest, you stomp down the gears without engaging the engine again, so you can "escape" at the end?

Ok, I don't consider myself an expert rider by any means but if you have been around machinery a long time you absorb some habits. I stomp down gears without engaging the clutch or only marginally engaging the clutch to get a feel for whether you are in roughly the correct gear for an accelaration manoeuvre if that option opens up to you to avoid catastrophe. Same as you might in a manual car when you have depressed the clutch and braked heavily but then realise you need to accelarate so you choose a gear you think is going to give you the right option for that based on your subconscious assessment of your road speed and accelaration required.

[ZX12R Hoon]

As a matter of interest, you stomp down the gears without engaging the engine again, so you can "escape" at the end?

Yes, why wouldn't you? If you brake well on most bikes you will be stopping quicker than a car can. A lot of guys pat themselves on the back and think it's a good thing. Trouble is it's only a good thing if you don't have a ton of steel bearing down on you from behind, about to sandwhich you between the car you just avoided hitting and itself. If you have the engine running and the right gear you can get out of the situation.
The comment about down-changing. What's the big deal about not engaging the engine? I don't understand why you consider that a problem or unusual??

[sinfull]

Yes, why wouldn't you? ?? Try it ! A couple of times, once in neutral and then in 2nd !

Or ask a few racers what happens when they hit a false neutral while coming in hot to a corner ! Engine braking IS important ! Not only does it help with braking it also loads weight on the suspension the minute you back off the throttle ! Smack it down a gear sure, but god help ya if ya hit a false in ya panic !

I think i replaced my rear pads after a year of doing track days (two maybe 3 a month), not because they were worn, but because they had petrified through NOT being used, pretty sure all i ever do is load the suspension with engine braking !

Disclaimer : I in no way claim to be an experienced racer, but have hit false neutrals and fuck they're scary while trying to slow down!
Can say that in all the years i have been on the road, the 3 emergency occasions i've had were ,
1/ flew round a corner flat out in a 50 area and found an old lady doing a u turn just past the apex, locked the rear and slid sideways and lowsided ! 18yrs old
2/ uncontrolled intersection, i was in the wrong and never saw him, hit the rear brake and slid sidways into the car ! 19yrs old
3/ came over a rise at the ton and found a herd of cows all over the road, was twisted up in all sorts of funny angles with foot hovering over the rear brake and fingers on the front lever (front wheel was off the ground, rear probably was too, it was a good rise) made it through that herd without touching any brakes (learning perhaps) 30yrs old

[Urano]

Yes, why wouldn't you? If you brake well on most bikes you will be stopping quicker than a car can.

because it increase your stopping distance, that's why you shouldn't.
in my opinion we'll have to clearly declare which is the question: do i have to COME TO A STOP or do i have to AVOID the obstacle?
in the first case, you have a wall in front of you. there's no "escape" after: you were dumbly lookin at how your tank shines then up your eye and find a 18 meter truck exactly in the middle of the lane. there you have to stop, no question. in the second, a car suddenly stops in the middle of the lane and turn without the indicator: in that case you can avoid it, and in that case i'd probably use very little the front brake, cause stopping is not my first option (different would be if you have a truck coming in front of you on the other lane...)

so if you want to stop, the right gear at the end is completely unuseful, while the engine will continue to drag you ahead and you cannot be focused on the front wheel:
http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf

and about stopping in less space than a car, who said that?
http://www.monteverdiclub.com/rahmen/stoptbl.htm
to me seems equal.
and maybe there's much more cases in which the car stops in less space, cause the bike is often faster in the traffic flow. it's true, the bike is lighter, but it has less tyre surface on the ground, it has more weight transfer, often faster pace and in the most cases no brakin assist.

with what data are you saying bikes stops shorter?

[Metastable]

I also don't agree with the rear brake FIRST. Now, I do agree with front and rear immediately, but the rear is just a quick stab and then start to release (on a sportbike, cruiser you keep on it) and it helps a bit while the front is starting to load. This all happens really fast. Also, you shouldn't be bracing with your arms, you need to keep them loose. If you are stiff, your reaction time for any input will be decreased. You need to brace with your upper legs on the tank.

Also, you clutch in and bang down the gears, there is no time in a TRUE emergency to be letting go of the clutch between gears. False neutral would be a bitch, but man.... there is only so much you can do.... if you are at a very low speed, you should be in first anyway.

As for practicing front end lock-up. Go to a place with some sand on the asphalt and have a go... it is great practice, but you have to let go of the brakes quickly. It happened to me when practicing emergency braking in a parking lot. It was dusty and I didn't notice. DON'T hit the rear too at first... just the front, locking up both might leave you with brown underwear.

Like I said in another thread, PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.... it has to be second nature. Back when I was riding the street more I practiced almost every single ride in a safe place. Plus you should be practicing from whatever top speeds you usually travel. If you never practice at 120 and you ride at 120 a lot, then it is going to feel different compared to 60.

Also practice reducing speed at a fast rate plus swerve too. Another good one is to practice engaging the brakes mid corner and avoiding mid corner obstacles. (WARNING -> easy to get wrong, but it is better to do it wrong in a controlled environment... parking lot with some cones or something)

BTW, you don't have to worry about the engine engaging while downshifting and accelerating because you might still be on the throttle at tad, IF you just hold the clutch in.... just don't be letting it out between shifts.

[Katman]

All this talk of emergency braking has missed the fact that the first split-second decision that has to be made is "Can I stop in time?"

If you decide you can, then by all means use the brakes in whatever manner you have found works best.

If you know you can't stop in time, less force on the front brakes allows you some ability to steer around the obstacle.

[Jonno.]

All this talk of emergency braking has missed the fact that the first split-second decision that has to be made is "Can I stop in time?"

If you decide you can, then by all means use the brakes in whatever manner you have found works best.

If you know you can't stop in time, less force on the front brakes allows you some ability to steer around the obstacle.

Yes but you can unload your brakes half way through, you can't un-not brake half way through.

[ZX12R Hoon]

because it increase your stopping distance, that's why you shouldn't.
in my opinion we'll have to clearly declare which is the question: do i have to COME TO A STOP or do i have to AVOID the obstacle?
in the first case, you have a wall in front of you. there's no "escape" after: you were dumbly lookin at how your tank shines then up your eye and find a 18 meter truck exactly in the middle of the lane. there you have to stop, no question. in the second, a car suddenly stops in the middle of the lane and turn without the indicator: in that case you can avoid it, and in that case i'd probably use very little the front brake, cause stopping is not my first option (different would be if you have a truck coming in front of you on the other lane...)

so if you want to stop, the right gear at the end is completely unuseful, while the engine will continue to drag you ahead and you cannot be focused on the front wheel:
http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf

and about stopping in less space than a car, who said that?
http://www.monteverdiclub.com/rahmen/stoptbl.htm
to me seems equal.
and maybe there's much more cases in which the car stops in less space, cause the bike is often faster in the traffic flow. it's true, the bike is lighter, but it has less tyre surface on the ground, it has more weight transfer, often faster pace and in the most cases no brakin assist.

with what data are you saying bikes stops shorter?

My experience is that they do, if the rider uses correct braking technique, if they just use the rear theres no way the bike will stop first, it's also unrealistic to talk about different speeds when comparing, to make any discussion valid we all need to agree that we are talking equal speed, same surface. Of course different bikes brake differently but in general with modern bikes with disk brakes I would be fairly sire that a bike will stop faster.

Try this sometime, go out to a car park, get some speed up, clutch in and then brake fairly hard with both brakes, if the rear doesn't skid I'd be really surprised. Why? Because the weight has transfered to the front and the rear has very little traction, it skids. Now, if it can skid with the brake you already have more braking effect than you can use, there's no point in retaining engine braking. It's better to keep the clutch in because when the back wheel stops the engine stalls if it's out and you lose the possibliity of having an escape mechanism.
I agree with other posters that there is a danger of locking the front and that's why it's important not to lock the rear, a lot of modern bikes have massive braking on the front, the wheels keep you upright when they are rotating so it's better to keep the rear rotating just in case you lock the front because it will keep you upright until you get a bit of braking off the front and get back in control.
Remember, we are talking about an emergency situation here, of course in a normal decelleration into a corner where you want to bleed off a bit of speed you use engine braking. This is different, it's all about gaining EVERY advantage to tip the balance your way. An extra meter of travel can easily be the difference between going home for a beer or going to hospital, take every advantage you can gain.

[Urano]

it is by sure my bad bad english, so i want to say clear it once for all, just not to be misunderstood:

i NEVER said to use the rear brake only if you want to stop the bike.

there's no way to stop a bike using the rear only, unless you have a LOT of space, someone back on the saddle, and you want to be VEEERY smooth.

the reason why modern bikes have massive brakes on the front is right because it's there that they are needed.
the rear brake is useful (quite) only to correct your path in a turn, if you want to slow down more quickly than with the engine only (in particular if you have a 4 c or a 2 stroke), and as we are saying here, to weight up the front fork and give the front wheel a bit more friction on the ground.

as for keeping the rear wheel rotating to keep you upright if the front would lock, well, in my opinion it doesn't work.
it would work if you were going backward: and that's why you should always use the uphill brake to stand still when you are not in plane. you can try it on your garage ramp.
in normal conditions, going forward, if you'll lock the front during an emergency brake, with the whole weight of the bike on the front fork, the rear one will not be sufficient...

[Metastable]

If you lock the front you need to release the brakes a bit, but very quickly.... but you can go for a very small period of time with the front wheel locked.

Now, I was reading Cycle Canada. During the new Hayabusa launch in Atlanta, they were on the highway heading to the track and Jason Britton would hammer on the front brake and lock it on purpose while keeping the throttle pinned and basically do these incredibly long front wheel skids going down the highway. :shit: Disclaimer -> Peeps, don't try that!!!!

[Urano]

yaaa... now that i thing better on it, it is also possible to make a wheelie lockin the front wheel...
so, about the thing that the rear wheel alone would not be sufficient to keep you right, well, i've said crap...
:D
the substantial difference that make it true is probably that on a wheelie (and maybe in that demonstration you've seen, in composition with the speed vector) the great part of weight is on the back wheel, while on an emergency brake the whole weight is on the front one.
it is still true also that if you lock the rear you could sign the ground with the tyre, if you lock the front you'll probably sign it with the nose... :D :D

[ZX12R Hoon]

There's another point to make about correct braking. Many bike riders like to go for rides with mates, we group ride. A few years back some fellow Club members were out on a ride. Clive and Pat were in the group enjoying the ride when a situation suddenly developed which meant Clive had to brake quite hard. Another bike travelling behind them two-up came in and hit really hard, everyone came off and had injuries, both bikes written off and Pat, well she will never physically get over it, she has had years of pain and is facing the rest of her life with pain. Taking about the crash at some point it came up that the rider of the bike that hit them had never used the front brake, he was worried that the front may lock so in his mind it was safer to use the rear, he had ridden for years doing that.
My point is that it's your responsibility to learn how to brake properly. If you are riding in groups you don't want either to hurt one of your mates or be hurt by one of your mates. Just think about spending the rest of your life in constant, debilitating pain simply because a riding mate couldn't be bothered to learn an important part of riding, probably the most important part.
Any mug can get on a bike, get it rolling forward, and go fast down a straight road, but it takes some time and concious effort to learn how to stop it properly.

[Katman]

My point is that it's your responsibility to learn how to brake properly. If you are riding in groups you don't want either to hurt one of your mates or be hurt by one of your mates.

Which is precisely why, when talking Emergency braking, the learning of avoidance techniques while braking becomes every bit as important as stopping in the minimum distance possible.

Not much good getting the maximum stopping power out of your front brake if in the process it still means slamming into the back of whoever is in front of you.

[slofox]

Had the chance to put all the above into practice this morning...a genuine emergency braking situation...

Heading downhill, straight road, with an apparently uninterrupted view all the way to the distant corner ahead.

Pulled out to overtake a slow car. Not realising that there was in fact, a dip in the road that effectively concealed a car coming the other way. Get out to overtake and this car appeared - too close to complete the overtake. Had to chuck out the picks and try to pull back to my own side of the road. Mission achieved but needed a deep breath to still the adrenalin rush. No doubt convincing both car drivers of the total idiocy of all bikers..."no wonder they have so many bloody crashes didja see that fool? Wadda dork!"

ooops. :o


EDIT: Oh and don't ask me how I used the brakes - I have no idea...

[Bad Gixxer]

Hi, this is my first post so I hope I don't offend. I've been riding for 30 years, done some racing, and always ride a bike like I stole it. I've read all of this thread and it seems to me that there is some confusion over "braking" and "slowing". Braking is how you apply either your right hand and/or your right foot to the appropriate levers. It seems that much of the discussion in the thread relates to this, although one or two have mentioned disengaging the clutch to stop the engine from carrying on forward momentum.

My advice is don't think "brake", instead think "slow down and avoid". My logic for this is that if you simply apply your brakes in an emergency situation with the intention of bringing your bike to a standstill (regardless of the braking technique), then you're going to travel in a straight line towards the obstacle - you may stop in time, you may not.

However, if you think that I need to slow the bike down as much as possible (possibly to a standstill), and then take evasive action, the chances are that you'll come out much better off. Hell, the evasive action might be to recognise that you aren't going to stop and/or avoid the obstacle in time, get on the balls of your feet and try and jump off the bike and over the obstacle rather than hit it (not entirely practical on a Harvey Donaldson, but entirely practical on a GSXR1000).

As to the "slowing technique", I advise everybody to get on a quiet road or a track day and SERIOUSLY practice different techniques. Each bike is different, we all have different suspension settings, we all weigh differently, we all have different fear factors. My technique is to ALWAYS ride with a finger covering the front brake, NEVER use the rear brake, ALWAYS preload the front brake through throttling off and applying slight pressure before applying full pressure, ALWAYS change down gears rapidly (using blipping) at the same time as braking, ALWAYS be prepared to release the brake to allow you to steer around the obstacle, or lean into the curve, ALWAYS believe that applying your brake/s is just one option available to you to avoid an obstacle.

Engine braking is seriously underutilised by many sportsbike riders. If you can learn to brake heavily with one (or two) fingers, while changing down rapidly through the gears using blipping, then this is a much better alternative to using the rear brake. Watch the MotoGP riders as they approcah the end of the straight into tight bend - NO rear brake, TONS of front brake, rapid gear changes, back wheel hardly touching the ground (if at all). The rear brake is not really a useful tool if your rear wheel is barely touching the track.

[george formby]

Had the chance to put all the above into practice this morning...a genuine emergency braking situation...

Heading downhill, straight road, with an apparently uninterrupted view all the way to the distant corner ahead.

Pulled out to overtake a slow car. Not realising that there was in fact, a dip in the road that effectively concealed a car coming the other way. Get out to overtake and this car appeared - too close to complete the overtake. Had to chuck out the picks and try to pull back to my own side of the road. Mission achieved but needed a deep breath to still the adrenalin rush. No doubt convincing both car drivers of the total idiocy of all bikers..."no wonder they have so many bloody crashes didja see that fool? Wadda dork!"

ooops. :o


EDIT: Oh and don't ask me how I used the brakes - I have no idea...

I have done that twice in the last few months, had room to shoot the gap both times but I felt like a complete squid & deserved any vitriol from the drivers. Sorry! Ok, back to brakes.

[p.dath]

Hi, this is my first post so I hope I don't offend. I've been riding for 30 years, done some racing, and always ride a bike like I stole it. I've read all of this thread and it seems to me that there is some confusion over "braking" and "slowing". Braking is how you apply either your right hand and/or your right foot to the appropriate levers. It seems that much of the discussion in the thread relates to this, although one or two have mentioned disengaging the clutch to stop the engine from carrying on forward momentum.

I personally draw a distinction between emergency braking (where you are trying to brake to save yourself injury), and brake and escape, where you are trying to reduce speed and have a potential escape avenue.

This particular thread was specifically about emergency braking - where there isn't an avenue of escape (I do accept that you can't always plan your escape immediately).

And because I have particularly thick skin, I wrote a blog article on the matter:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/entry.php/1453-Motorcycle-Emergency-Braking

Your experience vastly exceeds mine; but I do at least one thing differently to you and perhaps it's a matter of style. I don't ride permanently covering the front brake. Sure if while looking ahead I see something that makes me concerned I'll cover the front brake, but otherwise no.

[Smifffy]

EDIT: Oh and don't ask me how I used the brakes - I have no idea...

I tend to agree with this bit to an extent. There are a limited number of inputs you have, eg front/rear brake, clutch, throttle,steering etc. There are a number of permutations of these in combination. It is excellent to make a practised study of the way these inputs can be combined and the response you get from the bike. In a real life situation, the bike will respond to the inputs applied in real time providing instant feedback. Knowledge and experience, gained through riding your motorcycle, and lots of practice in applying the inputs, should inform you of exactly which input needs to be applied for the bike to respond the way you want it to.

Get out and ride :)

[Bad Gixxer]

but I do at least one thing differently to you and perhaps it's a matter of style. I don't ride permanently covering the front brake. Sure if while looking ahead I see something that makes me concerned I'll cover the front brake, but otherwise no.

Hey your blog is particularly useful and certainly shows that there are a lot of recommended braking methods around the world. I'm not saying that the way I do it is the only way or the correct way, but it works for me. I'm sure you'd agree that all riders should practice different methods to determine what works best for them and for their bikes. However on the issue of having a finger covering your brake at all times...I would SERIOUSLY recommend that you try this out, even when going around a curve. You'd be amazed at how much more effective and smooth the braking is when you eliminate the reaching/grabbing effect - it especially works well when you apply slight preload pressure before full pressure. I've done tests where the stopping distance can be improved by 30% just by having the brake covered and applying preload. In an emergency situation, eliminating that half second delay in braking will make a big difference. (It also saves demerit points when you spot the cruiser in the nick of time.) :yes:

[p.dath]

Hey your blog is particularly useful and certainly shows that there are a lot of recommended braking methods around the world. I'm not saying that the way I do it is the only way or the correct way, but it works for me. I'm sure you'd agree that all riders should practice different methods to determine what works best for them and for their bikes. However on the issue of having a finger covering your brake at all times...I would SERIOUSLY recommend that you try this out, even when going around a curve. You'd be amazed at how much more effective and smooth the braking is when you eliminate the reaching/grabbing effect - it especially works well when you apply slight preload pressure before full pressure. I've done tests where the stopping distance can be improved by 30% just by having the brake covered and applying preload. In an emergency situation, eliminating that half second delay in braking will make a big difference. (It also saves demerit points when you spot the cruiser in the nick of time.) :yes:

I've tried a number of grips myself. With normal riding when there is nothing making me concerned I ride with all fingers on the throttle. Otherwise I use my left two fingers on the brake, and my right two fingers on the throttle.
I've found this provides me with the best balance of braking and throttle control. I end up using this style to make blipping down easier.

You'll find another large school of thought that says you should have all fingers either on or off the brake. This can especially have an impact under emergency braking with those people that don't engage the clutch straight away, as you run the serious risk of driving the engine against the brakes when you have some fingers on the throttle and some on the brake.

[Morcs]

Slam on both brakes as hard as possible.

Clutch in, tap-tap-tap all the way down the gear box

Dump the clutch.

Enjoy.

[Bad Gixxer]

You'll find another large school of thought that says you should have all fingers either on or off the brake. This can especially have an impact under emergency braking with those people that don't engage the clutch straight away, as you run the serious risk of driving the engine against the brakes when you have some fingers on the throttle and some on the brake.

You make a valid point. A way of reducing the chance of rolling on the throttle accidentally while braking (with one, two, or all fingers) is to make sure that the brake lever is set at an angle well below horizontal so that you have to reach down - this has the effect of automatically rolling the throttle closed when you reach for the brake lever. The actual position will vary depending on the rise of the bars/clipons etc.

It's amazing how many don't bother to adjust their controls to suit their riding style or even their body size. I've ridden other people's bikes where the gear lever is set so high that changing gears is a mission, or the slack in the throttle cables is so huge that you there's half a turn before there's any effect. I once had a race bike that just felt damn awkward....until I realised that the clipons were set 50mm too much inwards, I turned them out and it made a huge difference to the way the bike handled. The former owner was a bit shorter than me and had a shorter reach, so what was comfortable for him had me all crunched up. Everybody is different in what is comfortable of course, but don't just accept the bike the way it came from the previous owner without resetting the controls for your own comfort and safety.

[Chrislost]

because it increase your stopping distance, that's why you shouldn't.
in my opinion we'll have to clearly declare which is the question: do i have to COME TO A STOP or do i have to AVOID the obstacle?
in the first case, you have a wall in front of you. there's no "escape" after: you were dumbly lookin at how your tank shines then up your eye and find a 18 meter truck exactly in the middle of the lane. there you have to stop, no question. in the second, a car suddenly stops in the middle of the lane and turn without the indicator: in that case you can avoid it, and in that case i'd probably use very little the front brake, cause stopping is not my first option (different would be if you have a truck coming in front of you on the other lane...)

so if you want to stop, the right gear at the end is completely unuseful, while the engine will continue to drag you ahead what the heck did you just say? you drive an auto right?and you cannot be focused on the front wheel: why would you focous on the front wheel? this takes your focus off looking for that gap or steering or stopieing or whatever it is you do while tryna stop
http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf

and about stopping in less space than a car, who said that?
http://www.monteverdiclub.com/rahmen/stoptbl.htm
to me seems equal.
and maybe there's much more cases in which the car stops in less space, cause the bike is often faster in the traffic flow. it's true, the bike is lighter, but it has less tyre surface on the ground, it has more weight transfer, often faster pace and in the most cases no brakin assist.
Not a hellova lot of people out there can brake real hard without the fear of falling off their bike... cars you can lock up and you dont bite the dirt, this probably has more to do with your "statistics"
with what data are you saying bikes stops shorter?

Who knows, Why dont ya just avoid those kind of situations by using both eyes and a couple of ears to search for danger?

[Urano]

1- i say that your engine, if the clutch is engaged, drag you ahead... read the pdf i've linked, please...
2- no, i don't drive a car. not only, i mean...
3- with "focus" i meant "focus on givin the max grip and braking power to the front wheel" not "look at how spherical is my front tyre"... to look for escape routes is something very important and always to do, but in this case was not complying with premises...
4- statistics are not "mine". test are made by professionals with safety devices (such as lateral wheels) and in ideal conditions, so the "fear" is not a factor.



and yes, not to be in those situations is way the best solution.... :niceone: