Nick Smith shows what he thinks of democracy

[rainman]

About sacking the ECan councillors (from http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/3531434/ECan-ndash-you-re-fired/): (http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/3531434/ECan-ndash-you-re-fired/%29:)


Dr Smith said part of the reason he replaced the council with commissioners – rather than appointing a commissioner adviser to oversee water management issues, as ECan suggested – was he was wary of the outcome of the October elections.

Not a big fan of democracy then... I'm wary of the outcome of the next general election, can I just fire the current lot and install who I want too?

So, come on, all you "Democracy under attack" types: time for another march? No?

[MisterD]

I can't say I'm up to speed with the detail of this schamozzle, but the local paper seems to be supportive (http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/editorials/3531264/Editorial-The-axe-falls)....

[SPman]

A government appointed council, with no elections until 2013....this is Nationals idea of democracy - after all, if the electorate won't give business what it wants, then business will just ride roughshod over the electorate!


the people of Canterbury will not be allowed a vote over who controls their water until 2013. In the meantime, a government crony will give away those resources to National's farmer-supporters, allowing the aquifers to be sucked dry and the rivers to be filled with shit. They will make out like bandits from selling environmentally unsustainable milk; we will be left to drink cowpiss (http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2010/03/its-us-or-cows.html) and swim in cowshit (http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2010/03/giant-effluent-pond.html).

and no - this is not the same as the Rodney Council dissolution in 2001!

[Tank]

yawn - perhaps you should study a subject before trying to make cheap political shots out of something / nothing.

Read all the press - apart from the mouth breathing left - everybody else thinks that this was a good idea and that intervention was required.

[rainman]

the local paper seems to be supportive[/URL]....


Read all the press - apart from the mouth breathing left - everybody else thinks that this was a good idea and that intervention was required.

Oh thank heavens for that, all the "right thinking" people think it's a good idea. Must just be us "wrong thinking" people who have qualms about the ongoing assault on our democracy that seems to characterise this government.

Believe it or not, I (based on what I have seen) think some form of assistance to ECan might have been in order. Given the political sensitivity of the water issues there, though, I would have thought that firing the entire council and not having elections for three and a half years might not have been the first thing that sprang to mind.

It's a water grab, which we will regret. More small-minded short-term thinking from the Nacts.

[Tank]

Oh thank heavens for that, all the "right thinking" people think it's a good idea. Must just be us "wrong thinking" people who have qualms about the ongoing assault on our democracy that seems to characterise this government.


That from someone who supports the party that introduced the Electroial finance act - pffft - oh its only a assault on our democracy if the 'right' do it.

[Swoop]

"a council so dysfunctional that comprehensive and rapid intervention by central government was required"

Quite true. The fishermen are seeing the water resource disappear. More and more irrigators are set up which are adding strain onto the supply.
The plains are not suitable for dairy farming, but that is where the $$$'s are. Sheep farming is sustainable but out of vogue...

Hopefully a new council will be established, without the "old political influences"...

[Bikernereid]

Well as a Cantabrian I think the Government has done the right thing. Look what has happened with the banking institutions...no one did a jot and through mismanagement (and lining their own pockets)they lost billions. Now people are getting up in arms because the government has seen that the Council is fooking up left, right and centre and is not managing to follow its elected mandate professionally. If they are so bloody incompetent why wouldn't people want them out?

[scissorhands]

Vigilantes need to start shooting cows, pitbulls and anyone who flushes after number ones

[SPman]

That from someone who supports the party that introduced the Electroial finance act - pffft - oh its only a assault on our democracy if the 'right' do it.
Ah yes - the Electoral Finance Act - the Act that was meant to make all political donations transparent, (although badly drafted and not well thought out) and was immediately attacked by the right, as somehow "unconstitutional" and Labour as being corrupt! Oh - that's right, National likes to keep all it's donaters and their donations secret!

[SPman]

Well as a Cantabrian I think the Government has done the right thing. Look what has happened with the banking institutions...no one did a jot and through mismanagement (and lining their own pockets)they lost billions. Now people are getting up in arms because the government has seen that the Council is fooking up left, right and centre and is not managing to follow its elected mandate professionally. If they are so bloody incompetent why wouldn't people want them out?
Quite true - if they are so bloody incompetent - put in a commissioner to sort the whole sorry mess out prior to holding new elections, in 6 months. This is basically what most people wanted and would have expected in a democracy
- not another Putsch like the Auckland superCity disgrace!

[rainman]

That from someone who supports the party that introduced the Electroial finance act

Whatever gave you that idea? I'm not a fan of the EFA, as it happens, although the issue it should be addressing is valid. It was a bad reaction to the Hollow Men Exclusive Brethren pamphlet, as I recall, which was actually an attempt to cheat the system. The Nats have not done anything to improve that situation (funny that). I understand the Nats have quietly removed the funding limits on the MMP campaign - no surprise, I'm not very happy about that either.


The plains are not suitable for dairy farming, but that is where the $$$'s are. Sheep farming is sustainable but out of vogue...

Hopefully a new council will be established, without the "old political influences"...

Dream on. Betcha a beer this results in more water being handed out to dairy.


If they are so bloody incompetent why wouldn't people want them out?

Just following that through... this government is chalking up a pretty long list of incompetence too. Can they be chucked out? No, because they were elected. Doesn't matter how shit they are, or how much I personally don't like them, they are who we chose for the term of their office.

Dammit people, democracy is important - whether or not ECam were effing useless or not, they were elected at the will of the people they represent. If they were crap, the electors should chuck them out at the next election. This government will put it's cronies in to key positions (not what you know, it's who you know) and have them spend ratepayers money with no right to hold them to account at the polling booth. No taxation without representation, remember?

This is what our ancestors fought wars for. And we're giving it up without a protest because "at least it isn't Labour"? We should all, irrespective of political alignment, be calling this as it is - corruption.

[Robert Taylor]

A government appointed council, with no elections until 2013....this is Nationals idea of democracy - after all, if the electorate won't give business what it wants, then business will just ride roughshod over the electorate!



and no - this is not the same as the Rodney Council dissolution in 2001!

Business is what employs people and minimises the leftist ideal of qwelfare and state dependency. In that light I am all for a strong business sector that rewards hard workers. No brainer really.
If it further weakens the left wing parties then even better

[phill-k]

Funny really they replace the elected members in Canterbury without giving those other than their own supporters the ability to re elect members to represent all the interests in the water rights, Ak has forced on them a super city where many of the essential services are to become commercial enterprises moving away from the greater good to becoming profit oriented. John Key a man I voted for has now supported the actions of one of his ministers who by his position is in the top 5% of income earners in NZ uses your & my money to the tune of $1400 for a family holiday and books it up to us because he didn't understand the rules, if he worked for some businesses in NZ he would have been charged with theft, same man sometimes up here so I've been told uses a limousine to get to Whangarei airport, costs us $170 where as the taxi ride is about $20, would I normally mind or even care - no - but they have been telling us all to tighten our belts ect ect, but they all continue to screw us as hard as they can, where has Key's high morals and standards gone I wonder. Tonight I read that the Mayor of the NorthShore a man who has stood up to Hide and his cronies and said the supercity requires a lot more thought and we need to slow down, and has not only come under attack from hide for peeing on a tree - from the man that attempted to rip us all off by taking his latest F**K on a taxpayer junket, but one of his councillors who I read tonight is the Act Party Secretary no less, the mayor as has been proved was having a few drinks with some mates was not drunk had a pee on a tree in the dark who cares, only those that don't want the cronyism of the Big City exposed. In changing camp and voting for JK I thought we were going to see a whole new era of politics in NZ, but all we are seeing is a man who's puppet strings are becoming more visible by the day, beating up on the people at the bottom of the wealth pyramid whilst running their own fingers through the honey pot.

[Hitcher]

Democracy is, quite frankly, overrated. In local government particularly, name recognition is more important than any aptitude or vision.

Even in central government, there is a whole bunch of people called "list MPs" who are accountable to nobody other than the party whose list they've found themselves on.

It's a bit of a paradox: people with ability generally don't run for elected office; and Joe and Kylie Public are strangely attracted to the goobers who do.

But don't confuse representative democracy with participative democracy. The former is overrated and the latter works.

Unfortunately the Canterbury Regional Council (Environment Canterbury) appears to have failed badly on both scores. That's why it is now to be run by Commissioners for a while.

[scissorhands]

Welcome to the NWO bitches

[eelracing]

Funny politics in NZ, all we are seeing is a man who's puppet strings are becoming more visible by the day,


You talk sense sir...but those strings were visible the day he brought the bretheren to the table.

[Mully]

Oh, it's only Canterbury.

I thought it was somewhere that mattered. It's common knowledge that Canterbury can't be trusted with decisions - they're like the Nation's slow Southern cousin.

(that should do it)

[rainman]

Democracy is, quite frankly, overrated. In local government particularly, name recognition is more important than any aptitude or vision.

For shame Hitcher, I really did expect more from you.

So, two questions:
1. what's the better system that delivers candidates with aptitude and vision, and voters smart enough to make intelligent choices?
2. Do you really think the shenanigans in Cantebury are closer to this ideal, or further away?


Unfortunately the Canterbury Regional Council (Environment Canterbury) appears to have failed badly on both scores. That's why it is now to be run by Commissioners for a while.

A while? 3 1/2 farkin years!!! Do you really think there was no better option? Do you really think this won't just turn into an unsustainable water grab?

[SPman]

.....voting for JK I thought we were going to see a whole new era of politics in NZ,
well - you got what you wanted :whistle:

[mashman]

Why are you all so surprised with the tactics being employed here... they did exactly the same thing with the ACC board not too long ago... and look what that's done...

[Skyryder]

That from someone who supports the party that introduced the Electroial finance act - pffft - oh its only a assault on our democracy if the 'right' do it.

Any political party who sacks a democratically council that is acting within the law is, to use your words ‘assaulting democracy.’ To make a comparison between this (sacking) and Labours Electoral Finance Bill indicates you complete lack of understanding of the democratic principles’ that are the foundation of our society.

Sadly, because this is associated with water issues, the true nature of this sacking has been sidelined. The division of those that approve of the governments sacking and those that do not is divided on ideology and economics.

Hide and Smith jumped on the criticism from the Mayors letter, and used this as an excuse to send in Creech to do a review of Ecan. Parker never had a mandate from his council for his criticism of Ecan and I am unaware that any other mayor did too although I may stand to be corrected on this. The entire Ecan council, with the exception of Pat Harrow who has irrigation interests, were opposed to Ecan being disbanded. It could be argued that they were just looking after their own interests but many of the councilors had water rights and irrigation interests along with Harrow.


This sacking was carried out for the benefit of very few people who have enormous financial power.

IT SHOULD FOR NO OTHER REASON SEND ALARM BELLS RINGING AS TO WHAT OTHER DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS THAT THIS GOVERNMENT WILL DESTROY IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE ITS DICTATORIAL AMBITIONS


Skyryder

[bent12]

Fucking outrageous is what it is, do we have a democracy or not, a very clear choice

[puddytat]

The one with one of the biggest smiles, on his dial, will be a certain bloke with a surname very similar to a museli maker from Akl......
We tend to forget that weve only had democracy for a century or so & it seems to me that all around the world "they" are steadly & stealthily whittling away our rights, & grabbing resources. Its becoming a Capatalistic Dictatorship .

[pete376403]

Just like ACC, is canterbury water being set up for privatisation?

[mashman]

Just like ACC, is canterbury water being set up for privatisation?

Everything must go in order to look after the people (it is the way of the blue... Thatcher...). There are no categorisations that can explain what is happening at the moment, because we do not know the full extent of ANY situation these days. Life just goes on, we work, feather nests etc...



Fucking outrageous is what it is, do we have a democracy or not, a very clear choice


In all seriousness... no... but we could put it to a vote... poll time :shifty:

[bent12]

mashman

No democracy! what the people of regional ChCh vote in is what they get, what does it matter they are in discord, months or years of discussion is preferable to dictatorship from Wellington

[cowpoos]

time for another march? No?

No...No its not....Ecan is a sham...full of idiots, pushing thier own barrows.

All of the local councils [9 of them] think Ecan is incompetent...

SO TELL me rainman....what barrow are you pushing....you seem to try and get on a the band wagon for half arsed causes??

[cowpoos]

It's a water grab, which we will regret. More small-minded short-term thinking from the Nacts.

Sorry...but after reading that....you have no idea whats going on down in Canterbury. Idiot.

[rainman]

Just like ACC, is canterbury water being set up for privatisation?

You mean like in Auckland (http://www.conferenz.co.nz/conferences/13th-annual-local-government-asset-management-conference)? Check the agenda.


No...No its not....Ecan is a sham...full of idiots, pushing thier own barrows.

All of the local councils [9 of them] think Ecan is incompetent...

Could be, but they were elected, and there were many better options for fixing this than the anti-democratic approach chosen by National and Act. Kinda shows their values.


SO TELL me rainman....what barrow are you pushing....you seem to try and get on a the band wagon for half arsed causes??

Me? I'm not pushing any particular barrow. Just a concerned citizen, who values democracy and who cannot abide hypocrisy. Besides, this is hardly half-arsed - iit is a real assault on democracy, y'know, like that other issue that made some people and a certain newspaper get a bit warmed up a while back. Only more realer.


Sorry...but after reading that....you have no idea whats going on down in Canterbury. Idiot.

Granted I am not a Cantebury expert, but are you willing to bet that this action will result in better, more long-term sustainable, water allocation and use? Cleaner streams? Or just more of the same, handing out water rights to a bunch of Nat-friendly farmers who will happily expand dairy in Cantebury beyond any sensible level, and happily take the private gains while shifting all those unpleasant environmental costs to the public?

[rainman]

I realise it's bad form to thread-dredge my own thread, but WTF (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3599250/ECan-sacking-right-decision)?



Tim Smith said he used more colourful language.
"I told them their organisation was bloody hopeless and they were all useless bastards who should be sacked," he said.
"I also told them that with some luck my brother and Rodney Hide would do something about it.
"I'm unsure if their decision to proceed with prosecuting me and my company was motivated by my close relative. However, it is certainly a real possibility."


Tim Smith is Nick Smith's younger brother.

What a corrupt pack of wankers.

[mashman]

http://www.greens.org.nz/oralquestions/government-challenged-water-privatisation

"Dr Russel Norman: In light of these examples from 30 years ago, does he accept that water privatisation was an abject failure in the United Kingdom; if so, why is he initiating New Zealand’s heading down that path, when he himself acknowledges it is old policy that does not work?

Hon BILL ENGLISH: No; and we are not doing so."

So privatisation is out of the window :shifty:

[pete376403]

http://www.greens.org.nz/oralquestions/government-challenged-water-privatisation

"Dr Russel Norman: In light of these examples from 30 years ago, does he accept that water privatisation was an abject failure in the United Kingdom; if so, why is he initiating New Zealand’s heading down that path, when he himself acknowledges it is old policy that does not work?

Hon BILL ENGLISH: No; and we are not doing so...

So privatisation is out of the window :shifty:

Hon BILL ENGLISH: ... (sotto voce) in this parliamentary term, anyway. Ask me again after tne next election)

[avgas]

Fucking outrageous is what it is, do we have a democracy or not, a very clear choice
If you are asking the question - do you really want the answer?
What is your definition of democracy?
- No one wins?
or
- Everybody loses?
or
- Unthinking Majority Rules?

[SPman]

No...No its not....Ecan is a sham...full of idiots, pushing thier own barrows.

All of the local councils [9 of them] think Ecan is incompetent...

SO TELL me rainman....what barrow are you pushing....you seem to try and get on a the band wagon for half arsed causes??They are pushing barrows that run contrary to the desires of most dairy farmers - with a lot of the local councils being dairy farmer biased, of course they think they are incompetent.
Dairying is not the be all and end all of agriculture use - it is water intensive and highly polluting of the ground water - just ask the people of Dunsandel if they like drinking cow piss and shit from contaminated water tables! At the current rate of intensive dairying being propogated in Canterbury, most, if not all of the Canterbury alluvial water tables will end up with serious pollution problems, within the next 2-3 yrs, at current dairy intensification rates! Ecan is a barrier to taking over water useage for big business, intensive dairying, so they have to go! And fuck peoples drinking water....which it will!

[oldrider]

About sacking the ECan councillors (from http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/3531434/ECan-ndash-you-re-fired/): (http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/3531434/ECan-ndash-you-re-fired/%29:)



Not a big fan of democracy then... I'm wary of the outcome of the next general election, can I just fire the current lot and install who I want too?

So, come on, all you "Democracy under attack" types: time for another march? No?

It seems his brother was a benefactor of the sacking action, does this smack at "conflict of interest" ? :shifty: (Press today)

[rainman]

If you are asking the question - do you really want the answer?
What is your definition of democracy?
- No one wins?
or
- Everybody loses?
or
- Unthinking Majority Rules?

Beats the unthinking minority ruling.

[mashman]

It seems his brother was a benefactor of the sacking action, does this smack at "conflict of interest" ? :shifty: (Press today)

His brother may well be another chip off the old block.

[mashman]

What is your definition of democracy?


Common Sense Rules All?

[mashman]

Beats the unthinking minority ruling.

It's the thinking minority that I'm concerned with. Don't get me wrong I love my no money theory and stuff... but there's a thinking minority that are at the completely opposite end my spectrum. It's the "calculating" minority I'm worried about.

[Winston001]

I realise it's bad form to thread-dredge my own thread, but WTF (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3599250/ECan-sacking-right-decision)?



Tim Smith is Nick Smith's younger brother.


Oh dear. Ministers of the Crown must not only be independent but they must be seen to be independent. No matter what Nick Smith says, a portion of the electorate will believe he was taking revenge for his wally of a brother.

I'm not particularly bothered by the short-term removal of statutory boards. Sometimes they become dysfunctional and unable to carry out their responsibilities. We've seen it before with School Boards and Health Boards being replaced by commissioners.

What puzzles me is this event is 3 weeks old and we still don't know the specific reasons why Ecan was fired.

[oldrider]

Oh dear. Ministers of the Crown must not only be independent but they must be seen to be independent. No matter what Nick Smith says, a portion of the electorate will believe he was taking revenge for his wally of a brother.

I'm not particularly bothered by the short-term removal of statutory boards. Sometimes they become dysfunctional and unable to carry out their responsibilities. We've seen it before with School Boards and Health Boards being replaced by commissioners.

What puzzles me is this event is 3 weeks old and we still don't know the specific reasons why Ecan was fired.

It's way longer than three weeks old! :shifty:

There was a problem with the previous chairman and a few councillors but the new chair and reorganisation had only got settled in and began to make some headway when this occurred!

Sort of like closing the door after the horse (or the problem) had bolted!

Feel a bit sorry for the vanquished E-can council actually, don't think I will pay my E-can rates as a consequence! Why should I?

My personal opinion of Smith, as a result of his behaviour this political term, is that he is a confused idiot! :yes:

[rainman]

My personal opinion of Smith, as a result of his behaviour this political term, is that he is a confused idiot! :yes:

And there you may have found the one issue about which all of KB will agree! Well done!

[cowpoos]

They are pushing barrows that run contrary to the desires of most dairy farmers - with a lot of the local councils being dairy farmer biased, of course they think they are incompetent.
Dairying is not the be all and end all of agriculture use - it is water intensive and highly polluting of the ground water - just ask the people of Dunsandel if they like drinking cow piss and shit from contaminated water tables! At the current rate of intensive dairying being propogated in Canterbury, most, if not all of the Canterbury alluvial water tables will end up with serious pollution problems, within the next 2-3 yrs, at current dairy intensification rates! Ecan is a barrier to taking over water useage for big business, intensive dairying, so they have to go! And fuck peoples drinking water....which it will!

Sorry missed this....Dairying only accounts 35% of irrigation in cantubury. and if the towns water usage are included in water use data....it becomes a much much small percentage.

If we want to talk about enviromental foot prints caused by various land users....we would have to try very very hard to get data from ECAN.
Because they have tryed to keep thier Core voters mis-informed. the most unsustainable and un-enviromental land use in Canturbury is Christchurch.
I think we would find similar Findings with most/all of our citys in New Zealand. So [not directed at you SPman] Townies should look at thm selves before they try and shit in farmers back yards.
The farming [agriculture and horticulture] community spend millions and millions finding ways to appease critics and yet still supply consumers what they want.

There are some irresponsible farmers... I despise them as much as the next person...

My Biggest problem with the green lobby is how they go about thier work. Pointing the finger and saying NO...is not the right way for reasoned people to do things...and they have to also realise they are a very small minority. Have your opinions...justify them all you like...its fine...we as a society do need balance...But if you object to something...lets have a discussion...open discussion with balance...not a word fight. and realise...94% of people don't agree with your opinion.

[schrodingers cat]

Mark Twain was quoted as saying ' If they thought it made any difference, they wouldn't LET us vote '


Also I think a few of you are confused as to what democracy is... http://www.albatrus.org/english/goverment/govenrment/democracy%20versus%20repubblic.htm

Have no doubt that we do have democracy.