I'm getting spooked by downhill sweepers

[macdo]

This problem is 99% in my head but it's bugging me. I'm getting rattled by sweeping downhill bends with subtly changing radius. This morning it was the hill down to the Whitford roundabout coming from Howick. The sort of bend where you can't see the exit as you go in, maybe through a wooded area. I pick a line and a speed and a gear, going down on a trailing or whiff of throttle. Then need to change the line and my instinct is to give a bit more throttle, but then I worry I'll be going too fast for what's ahead. Braking feels wrong (I'm on a bend). Changing line means I'm using up road width Going down at a crawl is wrong.
I suspect I'm over-thinking this. Should I aim for a steady speed and adjust the line, or adjust the speed?
Going uphill I'm happy - no need to brake to lose speed as I only need to shut the throttle. It's the tun on thing when going downhill that's bugging me.

[quickbuck]

Okay,
First and foremost have a read of "Twist of the Wrist 2".
It is written by Keith Code, and is available from Darren Sweetman at California Superbike School NZ, via Trade Me.

It talks about survival reactions, and how they are not the best thing for motorcycling.
Granted it is based on racing, but it applies to what you want to know.

Your initial reaction to power out is the correct one. Not a fist full, but have the throttle "Cracked" open. That doesn't mean crack it open like a Stock Whip, but more like turning on a tap to allow a slight leak....

Keep your eyes looking as far around the corner as possible. This is called vanishing point.
If vanishing point comes toward you, then corner will tighten.
If it goes further away, corner opens.

What you should NEVER do is touch is the brakes mid corner. This puts more weight on the front, and will cause it to push more! Not what you are after!
Especially considering you already realise the front is loaded on a down hill anyway.... That is why it doesn't feel right to you.
You should never really tip the bike in more either... This can cause it to run out of ground clearance... Most road situations this is rare though...
BUT should it happen, you are more likely to poo yourself and stand the bike up and run off the road anyway.

Best to just keep your eyes looking up the road and put the faith in the tyres (with the throttle slightly cracked remember).
This puts more weight to the rear.

Hope this helps...
You may want to have a read of the book....

[gsxr&crf450]

many riders feel uncomfortable going down hill turning as there is so much momentum, thats normal. You should come in really wide and very smooth and steady. Get your braking done early, for safety reasons, you need to be prpared for the corner to get tighter, or something on the road like a dog or other object. Roll around on a steady throttle and look to change your line if needed. If you don't go in to fast then you can get away with a little bit of brake. You are not in a race, so it's better to be safe for now until you get better skills. The guys that go flying to blind corners fast are always risking a fall. Think safety first. At track days you can afford to make an error, as there is a run off area.

[macdo]

Knew I coudl get help here - thank guys. And I'll get the book, looks just what I need.

[george formby]

As stated above, give yourself more options by going into the corner a bit slower & maximise your visibility through the corner. In a blind corner I tend to trail brake slightly with the bike fairly upright when the vanishing point is coming towards me, once i can see through the apex I tighten my line & use a bit more throttle. On a tightening corner, the slower speed will have the bike more upright, giving you lot's of room to lean as you finally come through the apex. In slow, out fast I think they say. Give yourself the biggest possible safety margins & your confidence should grow. Try & focus on being smooth coming into & out of the corner, smooth on the brakes, smooth turning & smooth acceleration. If the bike feels nice & stable so will you.

[Subike]

Many will tell me im wrong, but
I use the rear brake at the same time I am using the thottle to control my down hill speed in corners
works for me, dont ask me to explain why,
I hear of many people never using their rear brake at all, so to me that means we all have very differing riding styles.
so what works for me may not work for you.
Carefully try as many different things as you can till you find your comfort zone
Downhill can be intimidating for sure, till you gain self confidence.
But dont ride faster than you can stop with in the visable road ahead.

[Hitcher]

Adjust your riding position so that the bars are "neutral" -- so you're not leaning hard on them.

Keep your head up and look through the corner.

Leave your entry point late and get on the gas as soon as you reach it.

Slow in, fast out but try to be really smooth doing it.

Practice at a steady pace and don't try to do things too quickly until you understand what you're trying to do and what works.

There's nothing more irritating than following riders through twisty stretches who can't carry momentum smoothly or stay on their own side of the road.

[SMOKEU]

You can LIGHTLY tap the back brake mid corner if you're running wide.

[Kemet]

My advice would be:
Don't do what Dangerous Bastard says :whistle:

In fact, I'm suprised he hasn't replied here yet :sweatdrop

[Maha]

Many will tell me im wrong, but
I use the rear brake at the same time I am using the thottle to control my down hill speed in corners
works for me, dont ask me to explain why,
I hear of many people never using their rear brake at all, so to me that means we all have very differing riding styles.
so what works for me may not work for you.
Carefully try as many different things as you can till you find your comfort zone
Downhill can be intimidating for sure, till you gain self confidence.
But dont ride faster than you can stop with in the visable road ahead.

Im with you, I also will use the rear brake, but its never a stomp, just a light touch.
Its there for a reason and can be used effectively if used correctly.
Yes some dont ever use the rear brake.
I have always done it.
I know of a Mentor that uses it also, says,'' by doing so, it just sits the arse end down a tad''.
Makes sense.

[Ixion]

The reason it feels bad is because bikes are most stable when accelerating. No, I don't know why something to do wiv geometry , n trail n stuff.

So , what you can do , is follow the old rule "go down in the same gear you'd go up". Slow down , change down, and accelerate through the corner , just as if it were an uphill one. Makes a world of difference to the feel on some bikes.

[willytheekid]

"I know of a Mentor that uses it also, says,'' by doing so, it just sits the arse end down a tad''.
Makes sense. "

The mentor is quite right, by "dragging" your rear brake before entering a corner, the bike will squat down, this lowers the center of gravity and makes the distance between axels greater-hence a more stable bike through the corner and a MUCH faster exit .
I highly recomend advanced rider training to all fellow motorcyclist's, it does cost a bit..but the payoffs are amazing!!, It will increase your confidence and skills and the trainers are usually police or professional racers with YEARS of experiance and knowlegde to share :)
I have been riding for 28yrs (celebrated 28yrs in feb :) ) and have riden both on and off road bikes all my life, I actually thought I knew everything about bikes and riding (I was young!..enough said!)...till I did a couple of riding courses with REAL professionals, it was truely humbling and the experiance I gained has increased my skills, enjoyment and my life expectancy lol.

[CookMySock]

Relax and trust your bike and tyres. You're not going anywhere near the speed you need to pull tyres loose, and if you are then the fix for that is pretty clear.

Steve

[Maha]

"I know of a Mentor that uses it also, says,'' by doing so, it just sits the arse end down a tad''.
Makes sense. "

The mentor is quite right, by "dragging" your rear brake before entering a corner, the bike will squat down, this lowers the center of gravity and makes the distance between axels greater-hence a more stable bike through the corner and a MUCH faster exit .


Those may have been her exact words!!......:shifty:

[325rocket]

get some trackdays under your belt, makes a world of difference.
rear brake mid corner works but is a pretty advanced technique, well maybe not advanced but you want to know your bike pretty well before you start using the rear mid corner. on a dry road it takes a lot to low side a bike so chances are if you commit you will make the corner. high siding is far more likely so dont snap the throttle shut or a lot of bad can happen really fast.

[Toaster]

Always good to see informative threads like this. I for one HATE downhill cornering and blind corners..... damn sheep.

[firefighter]

Okay,
First and foremost have a read of "Twist of the Wrist 2".

I believe it's a worthy book. But is it really worth $54?

[CookMySock]

on a dry road it takes a lot to low side a bike so chances are if you commit you will make the corner. high siding is far more likely so dont snap the throttle shut or a lot of bad can happen really fast.I don't think he is going anywhere near that quick - I think it's just a confidence thing. But yeah if he is, then find a track pronto, before someone gets hurt.

Steve

[Motu]

I believe it's a worthy book. But is it really worth $54?

I've read it several times,and never paid for it.Support your local library.

[howdamnhard]

This problem is 99% in my head but it's bugging me. I'm getting rattled by sweeping downhill bends with subtly changing radius. This morning it was the hill down to the Whitford roundabout coming from Howick. The sort of bend where you can't see the exit as you go in, maybe through a wooded area. I pick a line and a speed and a gear, going down on a trailing or whiff of throttle. Then need to change the line and my instinct is to give a bit more throttle, but then I worry I'll be going too fast for what's ahead. Braking feels wrong (I'm on a bend). Changing line means I'm using up road width Going down at a crawl is wrong.
I suspect I'm over-thinking this. Should I aim for a steady speed and adjust the line, or adjust the speed?
Going uphill I'm happy - no need to brake to lose speed as I only need to shut the throttle. It's the tun on thing when going downhill that's bugging me.

Use a lower gear to control your speed with .You can then use engine braking to slow down before the corner and then apply slight throttle while going through the corner without picking up to much speed. Go in slower and try aim to be smooth. If you do go into a corner and it tightens up (decreasing radius) then try not to stiffen up and brake,rather just lean(countersteer more) in harder.Most of the time you will get through. Hitting the brakes straightens you up and will cause you to go wide .

[Tryhard]

[QUOTE=macdo;1129706944]This problem is 99% in my head but it's bugging me. I'm getting rattled by sweeping downhill bends with subtly changing radius. This morning it was the hill down to the Whitford roundabout coming from Howick.

Me too. Try West road heading for Clevedon

[hayd3n]

practice practice and when you think you've mastered it
practice some more

even top racers fuck up

[macdo]

I don't think he is going anywhere near that quick - I think it's just a confidence thing. But yeah if he is, then find a track pronto, before someone gets hurt.

Steve

Yeah - confidence mostly and I'm not pushing the speed. Advice from here plus practice will fix it. Trouble is, the boy's taken the bike out for an early ride already - at least the tyres will be warmed up when he gets back!

[davebullet]

Problem when you get scared / panic, is your learning / remembering part of the brain goes to almost zero as survival kicks in.

Instead what I do is take the corner / bend slower than my skills allow. That allows me to remember / focus on how I could have been smoother, faster etc... Do that down hill several times, each time picking on only one aspect you thought you could do better on. Don't try and do 55 improvements - just one. Implement that, then repeat for the next one. As soon as you start thinking "I can't think of any other way to get down here smoother / quicker" - then you are back to where you were and can build on it via reading, track days, advanced rider training and more practise.

For example, one of my key problems is turning in too soon. It means I chop the apex, reduce my vanishing point unnecessarily and run wide.

[quickbuck]

I believe it's a worthy book. But is it really worth $54?

Closer to $540....
But I got mine for my birthday... Thanks babe.
I don't think she paid $54 for though.... If she did, well worth it in any case...

[Mrs weekendwarrior]

i hate that whitford rd bend too... im a super wuss so just go 20km & hold up everyone!

[Sentox]

For example, one of my key problems is turning in too soon. It means I chop the apex, reduce my vanishing point unnecessarily and run wide.

An awful lot of riders have this problem, I think. It takes a lot of discipline to run consistently ride entrances. Especially on corners you can't look through entirely, where all that visible road surface is so very attractive.

[Kemet]

Have a look in this part of the forum and see if you can find someone in your neck of the woods. They are there for this reason. A Rider who wants help and advice.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/80017-Senior-Mentors (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/forumdisplay.php/99-KB-Mentors-Programme)

then you can contact the member who is in your region

[Okey Dokey]

Lots of good advice here. I'll just add grip the bike with your legs. squeeze the tank and support yourself with you "core" back and stomach muscles. It is easy to lean on your bars going downhill, and that can be detrimental to your steering.

Look ahead where you want to go, keep it smooth. :)

[The Stranger]

An awful lot of riders have this problem, I think. It takes a lot of discipline to run consistently ride entrances. Especially on corners you can't look through entirely, where all that visible road surface is so very attractive.

ride? you mean wide perhaps?
But ok, bloody good thread with good advice, but I'd add one more thing that I haven't seen mentioned.

Enter wide (covered already), look to your vanishing point at all times and stay wide until you can see your exit is clear - or there is another reason to tighten your line.
Reasons (to tighten your line) may be for example an approaching vehicle, obstruction or tightening radius.
If as in the OP, the radius tightens and you have stayed wide as I say, then you are set up correctly to in effect enter the new radius from the correct point. If however you apexed the corner early then the raduis tightens, well you're shit out of luck as you're going to screw something up.

[Sentox]

ride? you mean wide perhaps?

Yes, quite possibly I do.

I wish your advice was mentioned more often amidst literature and such. When I first began riding, I was left wondering how I'm supposed to pick a late apex (or any sort of apex) if I can't see the whole corner. Later I realised that you just have to follow the outside line to maximise visibility until you can see a clear exit, then pick an apex from the remaining curvature of the road. And, as you point out, the optimal line may not be a perfectly chosen late apex... road surface, obstacles, traffic, etc, may all dictate otherwise.


Lots of good advice here. I'll just add grip the bike with your legs. squeeze the tank and support yourself with you "core" back and stomach muscles. It is easy to lean on your bars going downhill, and that can be detrimental to your steering.

This can be somewhat harder in practice than theory when the downhill section gets bumpy :laugh:

[The Stranger]

Yes, quite possibly I do.

I wish your advice was mentioned more often amidst literature and such.


The other benefit of this approach is lost on most.
In tight twisties (which we all love right), if you stay wide until your exit is visible there is a good chance the entry to the next bend will reveal itself and you can exit the current corner in the correct position for the next corner.
That will allow you to ride twisties both faster AND safer, because frequently when you fuck up on a bend what you actually fucked up was the bend before, exiting it too fast and/or in the wrong position.