Two bikes, one speed reading, two tickets [Archive]

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Tony F

6th April 2010, 22:22

quickbuck

6th April 2010, 22:30

Jantar

6th April 2010, 22:33

I believe the cops can legally issue group tickets, as in this case, if they have observed the 2 or more vehicles long enough to ascertain that they are travelling as a group.

CookMySock

6th April 2010, 22:42

I believe the cops can legally issue group tickets, as in this case, if they have observed the 2 or more vehicles long enough to ascertain that they are travelling as a group.I believe you are correct. Quite likely the cop can simply mail the other riders the ticket in the post too.

Steve

R6_kid

6th April 2010, 22:43

Two bikes travelling quite close together, very similar speed.

What sort of parameters define "very similar speed" are we talking both doing 107-113kmh or both doing 130-135kmh?

Unless it was obvious that one of them could possibly not have been breaking the speed limit, and they were infact both doing a similar speed which is without doubt in excess of the speed limit, then it's a fair cop.

The Stranger

6th April 2010, 23:13

No way, they can't do that. The radar reading can only apply to one vehicle.
It's not sufficient to guess which one. If they can't tell they have to let you go. Fight it, you'll win hands down.

rastuscat

7th April 2010, 06:28

CookMySock

7th April 2010, 06:49

No way, they can't do that. The radar reading can only apply to one vehicle.
It's not sufficient to guess which one. If they can't tell they have to let you go. Fight it, you'll win hands down.Um no mate you're wrong.

The cops can use any tool at their disposal to estimate your speed, and if they can make a concise and expert description to the judge of your apparrently illegal activities on the road - then they will do so, and if you think you can argue the technical point with the judge on that then go hard.

It might be different if the microwave radar was some kilometers from you, and it was the only source of information to the informant. Seriously, if they get a good lock on you with their Mark-IV Eyeball they don't even need to use the microwave to estimate your speed and then have that stand up in court.

Steve

doc

7th April 2010, 07:16

Has anyone dealt with a similar situation?

T.

Yes you can be given a ticket for travelling as a group. No use trying to fight it "They have a zero tolerance to speed" thats what the letter said . Just pay up be cheaper than trying to fight them cos they don't do it to the groups of cars type of approach. However if your in a group make sure only one makes the sacrifice and pulls over . Works for us anyway. :shifty:

rastuscat

7th April 2010, 08:25

No way, they can't do that. The radar reading can only apply to one vehicle.
It's not sufficient to guess which one. If they can't tell they have to let you go. Fight it, you'll win hands down.

A Police officer is actually able to issue a ticket based on a personal estimate of your speed, without any reference to speed detection equipment at all. It is all about what he/she is seeing in front of them. It has to be an offence notice, not an infringement notice. That means it is in the hands of the the JPs at the local court as to the amount of credence they put on the word of the Police officer. If the cop is fresh from the college the JPs are unlikely to go with what he has said, but if the cop is 20 years in the job with a lot of that time in traffic enforcement, with extensive speed detection experience, the JPs just might go with it.

The primary evidence in any speed case is the observations of the officer. The evidence provided by the detection equipment is secondary to that observation. If a group of riders is apparently travelling along at the same speed (as happens quite a lot) and one is checked at a certain speed, the officer issues the ticket and leaves it to the JPs to decide if it gets as far as a court.

On a tangent, if you care to look at what you have been charged with, it is "Exceeding **km/h", with ** being whatever the speed limit is. For example, someone is checked at 72 in a 50. They defend the ticket because they are adamant they were doing no more then 60. That is like pleading guilty, as the charge is exceeding 50km/h, and 60 is accepting that you exceeded 50. Plead guilty and save yourself legal fees and court costs.

Don't forget that any ticket is just an allegation by the officer who issues it that you broke the rules. It is not final judgement. If you just go and pay you are accepting guilt. If you wish to duspute it, there is a process by which to do so. Grizzling about it on KB isn't going to undo the ticket, or the prosecution.

Exercise your right to defend the ticket or accept your fate, your call.

doc

7th April 2010, 08:34

Grizzling about it on KB isn't going to undo the ticket, or the prosecution.
.

:gob: :yes: :shit::chase:

The Stranger

7th April 2010, 08:53

A Police officer is actually able to issue a ticket based on a personal estimate of your speed, without any reference to speed detection equipment at all. It is all about what he/she is seeing in front of them. It has to be an offence notice, not an infringement notice. That means it is in the hands of the the JPs at the local court as to the amount of credence they put on the word of the Police officer. If the cop is fresh from the college the JPs are unlikely to go with what he has said, but if the cop is 20 years in the job with a lot of that time in traffic enforcement, with extensive speed detection experience, the JPs just might go with it.

The primary evidence in any speed case is the observations of the officer. The evidence provided by the detection equipment is secondary to that observation. If a group of riders is apparently travelling along at the same speed (as happens quite a lot) and one is checked at a certain speed, the officer issues the ticket and leaves it to the JPs to decide if it gets as far as a court.

On a tangent, if you care to look at what you have been charged with, it is "Exceeding **km/h", with ** being whatever the speed limit is. For example, someone is checked at 72 in a 50. They defend the ticket because they are adamant they were doing no more then 60. That is like pleading guilty, as the charge is exceeding 50km/h, and 60 is accepting that you exceeded 50. Plead guilty and save yourself legal fees and court costs.

Don't forget that any ticket is just an allegation by the officer who issues it that you broke the rules. It is not final judgement. If you just go and pay you are accepting guilt. If you wish to duspute it, there is a process by which to do so. Grizzling about it on KB isn't going to undo the ticket, or the prosecution.

Exercise your right to defend the ticket or accept your fate, your call.

Was it good for you?
Hey, the OP knows he's screwed, he's just looking for hope.
All you guys are just bringing him down.

Big Dave

7th April 2010, 09:03

I know of two riders who were in this situation.

One was ticketed, took it to court where the rider who was not ticketed got up and said 'it was not him it was me'.
Case was thrown out.

I bet that loophole will close or has already been so.

MSTRS

7th April 2010, 09:33

R-Soul

7th April 2010, 14:03

I believe the cops can legally issue group tickets, as in this case, if they have observed the 2 or more vehicles long enough to ascertain that they are travelling as a group.

Gheez is n't that unconstitutional? Innocent until proven guilty and all that? Who is to say that One bike wasn't being passed by the others at the time the reading was taken? and how does a cop adjudge teh group to have been riding together for "long enough" when he is itting at tehside of the road? Isuppose if he is in a car following them, maybe...

And the group as a whole must be travelling quite quickly, becasue if one of them is called at 111km/hr, surely the others can argue that that bike specifically went over and then slopwed doen to the rest of the groups average speed of 105km/hr....

In fact the group could argue that a the point the rider swas trapped, he had been accelerating and braking to create an average speed of 100km/hr...

Thats a shocker. If I am to be fined, I want the cops to show ME evidence of ME speeding.

R-Soul

7th April 2010, 14:12

I reckon if it goes to court based on a cops "assessment" (eyeball wise), then you could shred his evidence by reducing his credibility. Show him videos of a bike riding through a narrow street at 50km/hr and on ahighway at 50km/hr , and ask him to assess the speed of both. He will normally screw them up thinking one is faster.

Or videos of one going past a lined background, and past a concrete wall. Lets face it, optical illusions are real, and happen on a daily basis.

I dont see anything being held up on the basis of a cops eyeballs.

Reminds me of a"speed trap" is saw in Mozambique (and on which my mate got a fine!). the cop had tied a piece of string to a stone at one ened, and a stick at the other. The stick was stood in the ground, with the string extending at right angles to the road. As the cars went past, they caused wind which blew the string and stone down the road. The cop had marked off liines in the sand as the speed limits. If the stone ended up past the lines in the sand, he issued a ticket.

This has about as much credibility...

Toot Toot

7th April 2010, 15:28

Me and Boomer where in this scenario once. He chatted up the female copper and she phoned him the next day and said that she withdrawn the ticket, and said I cant really give you a ticket and not the other fella (me). Did you try and chat up the copper??

breakaway

7th April 2010, 15:58

/Subscribed.

Will be watching this with great interest.

Scuba_Steve

7th April 2010, 17:40

rastuscat

7th April 2010, 18:55

the back of that piece of paper should say "The type of infringement offence that you are <b>alleged</b> to have committed appears on the front of this form" this reads as such because it is NOT a fine, by paying you admit guilt & they get away with their scam otherwise to make it a fine the NZ police must (under NZ law) prove you guilty beyond reasonable doubt (hard to do with 2 bikes involved) at their cost, until they have done this they cannot legally fine or take money from you!

The Police don't get the fines. Fines go into the consolidated fund. The Police receive 21% of their total funding through the Land Transport Fund, but they don't directly receive any of the fine revenue. That's why the Police are expected to spend 21% of their time on road policing.

And before you go thinking that they spend more than 21% of their time on road policing, think about all the support staff, the plain clothes staff, the back office staff, all the staff you don't see. Road police are high profile which is why you might think that's all the Police do, 'coz that's all you see them doing.

Darn, just one more tangent...........

R6_kid

7th April 2010, 20:15

/Subscribed.

Will be watching this with great interest.

Why? You don't have any friends to go riding with...

R-Soul

7th April 2010, 20:29

The Police don't get the fines. Fines go into the consolidated fund. The Police receive 21% of their total funding through the Land Transport Fund, but they don't directly receive any of the fine revenue. That's why the Police are expected to spend 21% of their time on road policing.

And before you go thinking that they spend more than 21% of their time on road policing, think about all the support staff, the plain clothes staff, the back office staff, all the staff you don't see. Road police are high profile which is why you might think that's all the Police do, 'coz that's all you see them doing.

Darn, just one more tangent...........

I think teh point he was trying to make is that the fine notice itself is not a conviction/penalty. It is a notification of an intention to prosecute at a later date with an aim to obtain a conviction and penalty of a certain amount. When you pay the notice, you are essentially admitting guilt, and bypassing them having to take it to court to obtain a conviction and its associated penalty.

Max Preload

8th April 2010, 15:46

The Police don't get the fines. Fines go into the consolidated fund. The Police receive 21% of their total funding through the Land Transport Fund, but they don't directly receive any of the fine revenue.

That seems to be in contradiction to the Public Finance Act 1989 (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1989/0044/latest/DLM163137.html).

pritch

8th April 2010, 16:32

There was a recent (relatively) news item where a group of riders were charged as a group and the judge rulled that charging the group as a whole was legitimate. At the time I thought that was somewhat of a worry.

The only possible good news is that I can't remember where I saw/heard that. Even if it was in the British motorcycle press it'll likely eventually be bad news here sooner rather than later.

Korumba

8th April 2010, 16:52

Fight It! I got off!

Same situation happened to me, wrote this first letter.
They replied saying they will take it to court and I wrote the second letter asking for a court date.
They then dropped the charges on both people. ( other rider was defending as well)
We both denied we were speeding and the cop kept referring to some mystery person lol he was so angry..

Renegade

8th April 2010, 20:27

No way, they can't do that. The radar reading can only apply to one vehicle.
It's not sufficient to guess which one. If they can't tell they have to let you go. Fight it, you'll win hands down.

im with him, the only way i see this sticking is if you were lasered and he was able to lock you both in quick succession, of course if this was the case then the distance at which you were locked at will differ, this info is available in your disclosure pack if you request one.

If you were caught on the radar then this just doesnt fly, either rider could simply argue he was going faster/slower than the other and the cop would have to prove you were both travelling at exactly the same speed, which he couldnt.

a line of cars travelling together dont all get a ticket for the same speed if one in the group is going slightly faster than another i.e closing up a gap, it simply cant be proved by radar, laser however can be as its an individual lock aimed at a single vehicle.

Start writing son, time to stand up and be counted.

2wheeldrifter

8th April 2010, 20:35

You can ask to be done under the racing act.... at the time of the offence, if your mates stop with you and are all up for it, the offence is for speeding and to prove which bike was is impossible.. case closed? pretty sure something on those lines :)

davereid

9th April 2010, 08:16

im with him, the only way i see this sticking is if you were lasered and he was able to lock you both in quick succession, of course if this was the case then the distance at which you were locked at will differ, this info is available in your disclosure pack if you request one.

If you were caught on the radar then this just doesnt fly, either rider could simply argue he was going faster/slower than the other and the cop would have to prove you were both travelling at exactly the same speed, which he couldnt.

a line of cars travelling together dont all get a ticket for the same speed if one in the group is going slightly faster than another i.e closing up a gap, it simply cant be proved by radar, laser however can be as its an individual lock aimed at a single vehicle.

Start writing son, time to stand up and be counted.

I think you should be able to win this case easily. But try and recall what you said on the side of the road. Did the cop say something like "why were you speeding ?" If you answered in any way that could confirm be taken as an admission of guilt, you may not win the case.

If you are riding in a group, only tail end charlie should stop. I can never understand why a group stops - some kind of misguided loyalty ?. The cop can then decide to let the last guy go and chase the others, or ticket the last guy. Of course the last guy can argue he was being passed by all those bikes that didn't get tickets and was not speeding at all. Don't ever offer any kind of admission of guilt, or an explanation of any kind. Don't get aggressive, demand to see calibration certificates etc etc.

Cop: "Why were you speeding ?"
You: "Are you going to give me a ticket ?"
Cop: "Yes you scummy biker"
You: "How fast do you think I was going - May I see the radar reading please ?"

Take the ticket politely, don't give the cop any reason to think you will be defending it, or he will make a better job of his roadside notes. At that time and place, all the odds are in his favour.

If you fail the attitude test big time, the cop can just claim you did a wheelie or were racing etc. He can take your licence and bike off you on the spot, without worrying about little inconveniences like the truth, courts or any of that rubbish.*

In my experience, and contrary to many of the reports on here, the court is not like that, they bend over backward to be unbiased.

I have always taken my tickets to court, (although its been a few years now, I have certainly taken my foot off the gas) and I have found:

- A good number of tickets just go away. The cop may have left the force or bee transferred to another area, or out of traffic, or the boss may look at the ticket and say "you are a moron Constable, have you read what you are trying to do here ?"
- The court is not on the cops side. I have had a judge tell a cop he wonders why they think they can waste the accused time "with such rubbish"
- The court may impose a fine less than the on the spot fine. I have never had a court impose a higher penalty, except for the $30 court fee.

You don't need to show you were not speeding. All you have to do is show the measurement was actually, or potentially unreliable, and the court is likely to find in your favour.

Remember - regardless of the police official line, it is about money, and they are expected to deliver a quota. They dont get the quota on the days they are waiting for court.

*As an aside... most cops by a massive margin are just trying to do the job honestly, and for the best reason. If you really were doing the crime, maybe you should just pay up !

Cr1MiNaL

9th April 2010, 08:55

Two bikes travelling quite close together, very similar speed.

No other vehicles within range.

Modus operandi appears to be: get a reading, no need to be specific about which bike the speed reading relates to, officer makes a visual assessment that the two bikes were travelling at the same speed, issues two tickets. Thank you lads!

Has anyone dealt with a similar situation?

T.

Yes exactly the same situation under 2 months ago. Were pinged at 130 both black R1's. Wrote in got off. We denied speeding as we weren't. We didn't even know each other and told the fuzz that. We weren't even riding together although they seem to "think" we were. You can't just think in a court of law take it from me. Didn't even actually make it to court 2 letters and 4 months later we were both acquited of the charges with no explanation given. Write in don't even sweat it.

I believe the cops can legally issue group tickets, as in this case, if they have observed the 2 or more vehicles long enough to ascertain that they are travelling as a group.

I believe you are correct. Quite likely the cop can simply mail the other riders the ticket in the post too.

Steve

No you are WRONG.

No way, they can't do that. The radar reading can only apply to one vehicle.
It's not sufficient to guess which one. If they can't tell they have to let you go. Fight it, you'll win hands down.

Correct you seem to have a lot of experience in this department.

Um no mate you're wrong.

The cops can use any tool at their disposal to estimate your speed, and if they can make a concise and expert description to the judge of your apparrently illegal activities on the road - then they will do so, and if you think you can argue the technical point with the judge on that then go hard.

It might be different if the microwave radar was some kilometers from you, and it was the only source of information to the informant. Seriously, if they get a good lock on you with their Mark-IV Eyeball they don't even need to use the microwave to estimate your speed and then have that stand up in court.

Steve
What BS. You are 100% WRONG. Although you would not know because a hysoung would probably break down past 100 km/ph?

Yes you can be given a ticket for travelling as a group. No use trying to fight it "They have a zero tolerance to speed" thats what the letter said . Just pay up be cheaper than trying to fight them cos they don't do it to the groups of cars type of approach. However if your in a group make sure only one makes the sacrifice and pulls over . Works for us anyway. :shifty:

Again Bullshit. In the UK the lead riders speed is used to ascertain the groups speed even if the group was not speeding, but no such law here in NZ. You cannot be done unless he can pin point you. And in this case he could'nt.

Max Preload

9th April 2010, 13:47

Dunno how this works these days. I stopped sticking around for a chat a bit over a decade back.

rastuscat

9th April 2010, 14:06

Yo Cr1MiNaL

You are entitled to your opinion as above, but it's wrong.

So there.

Cr1MiNaL

9th April 2010, 14:18

Yo Cr1MiNaL

You are entitled to your opinion as above, but it's wrong.

So there.

It's not wrong, I was the second rider Korumba mentioned. I met him after this incident of cause. Just trying to help a noob, don't take my advice and just pay up if u want. It's not my money or my demerits. So there.

rastuscat

9th April 2010, 15:20

Max Preload

9th April 2010, 15:36

Rastuscat is correct.

Didn't even actually make it to court 2 letters and 4 months later we were both acquited of the charges with no explanation given. Write in don't even sweat it.

You weren't acquited - the infringement notice was cancelled. There are many reasons for this to happen.

Cr1MiNaL

9th April 2010, 18:39

Rastuscat is correct.

You weren't acquited - the infringement notice was cancelled. There are many reasons for this to happen.

What you say is true. I was not acquitted I stand corrected - the notice was canceled. However I know enough about law and have received enough tickets to call bs and know what will fly in court. I am no stranger to this. The tickets were spot on 100% the officers had been in the force about 10 years, this I checked internally too. The calibration of the device was accurate too. There was nothing missing, I checked everything. The question being asked prompted my post in this thread, your comments as aforementioned are valid however misdirected.

R-Soul

12th April 2010, 07:55

That the staff at the PiB negated the tickets doesn't explain why. There are many reasons why. If you had gone to court and won I'd maybe agree with you, but the Police withdrawing the ticket for some undisclosed reason doesn't mean the ticket shouldn't have been written in the first place, and certainly doesn't mean you would have won in court.

Good on you for the win, but it was in the Police system, not the court.

Look at the facts - its a criminal case, so they have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that YOU were guilty. Not both of you as a group. Now if they cannot even tell who was actually speeding, much less what the other rider was doing or not doing, how on earth do you expect them to prove this?

I think the cops push their luck a bit in the hope that the people receiving the fine will just pay the admission of guilt on the notic eof intention to prosecute, and not put them through the process of having to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. And it probably does work. Sometimes. But lets face it, if push comes to shove, no self respecting prosecutor is going to be prepared to try to argue this one in court.... he would lose serious credibility with the judge.

doc

12th April 2010, 08:46

Again Bullshit. In the UK the lead riders speed is used to ascertain the groups speed even if the group was not speeding, but no such law here in NZ. You cannot be done unless he can pin point you. And in this case he could'nt.

Well you can be my lawyer next time, I wasn't prepared to take a day off work and travel 800k return to fight an 80 dollar ticket. Actually the three of us didn't want too. There was no way they were prepared to drop the charge.

:innocent: Just don't start a fire at the courthouse when you do

peasea

12th April 2010, 18:53

Well you can be my lawyer next time, I wasn't prepared to take a day off work and travel 800k return to fight an 80 dollar ticket.

I don't think any sensible person would, that's what the cops prey on, it's easy money. You should at least plead 'not guilty' and go for a defended hearing just to add to the paperwork for them and then they have to turn up to court, you don't. That's worth 80 bucks, surely. Oh, and the 30 bucks court costs of course, still money well spent to get the cock off the road for an hour. Sometimes people get lucky and the cops drop it, that's happened to me and a couple of mates. Well worth the price of a stamp to plead not guilty whatever the charge.