Position in seat?

[Sentox]

The current advice I'm following is to leave a couple of inches between the tank and my crotch. From a static perspective, it is more comfortable and balanced than jamming my butt against the back of the seat, or pressing up against the tank...

The problem is that despite my best efforts to grip the tank with my knees, I just simply can't stop myself from sliding forward under heavy braking (especially on a bumpy surface) unless I put weight on the bars, which is obviously bad.

So do I just need to practice more, or adjust my seating position?

(Yes, I'm asking for advice on where to put my crotch. Restrain yourselves :shutup:)

[vindy500]

I must admit to having similar problems

[bogan]

Same for me, but I'm adjusting my position for cornering/braking/etc anyway so just move back a bit if I'm too close to the tank. I put weight on the bars under braking though, didn't think it possible not to.

[Mental Trousers]

Usually you're braking because you're about to enter a corner, and when you're entering a corner you want to do as few things as possible so the bike remains stable and doesn't have to deal with you moving around and turning at the same time. So I suggest you actually move to the side a little before you start braking. This'll mean your inner thigh will press up against the back of the tank, taking your weight off your arms, and the knee on the other leg will be firmly pressed into the tank. Doing that you're in a much better position to take the corner as your body weight is slightly inside the line of the bike.

You don't need to move to the side much, just to the edge of the seat.

That's what works for me.

Another thing you can do is turn your toes inwards when you want to grip the tank. Sounds weird but your feet have a huge say in how the rest of your body works with the bike.

[Sentox]

So I suggest you actually move to the side a little before you start braking. This'll mean your inner thigh will press up against the back of the tank and the knee on the other leg will be firmly pressed into the tank..

Thanks! Makes sense, will have to try this tomorrow. When I ride at the moment, between clamping down on the heel plates and the tank I can keep my arms fairly light, but it falls apart when the rear brake and shifter come into it. I can imagine with the outside leg against the tank a bit more, I'll have a more stable point to hold my weight against.

Edit: what about low speed scenarios? Around town, I find myself sliding forward constantly, even without braking. Is it just the nature of the more aggressive sportsbike posture?

[monkeymcbean]

I tend to move forward and hug the tank, squeeze with my knees, use my legs a little to take weight off my wrists and hands, kick up to my heels on the footpegs so foot is not far from the brake and gear lever. In a semi sports ride position my wrists don't get sore at all even with riding all day.
The bike I have has a dummy tank and it rises up fairly high in style, very comfortable to lean on and tuck behind the screen, in a strong head wind. So, im not timmed to hug the tank, its rather comfortable and feel rather connected :blink: likely looks weird but i don't care,

[hayd3n]

are you putting weight on your legs or arse?

[BiK3RChiK]

This is new to me... I've always hugged the tank. So, what gives? I found on the low bar sports bike, that I would always slide forward into the tank, but with the naked bike with higher bars, I'm not hugging it sooo much. Should I not be doing this?

Interesting thread...

[Little Miss Trouble]

Thanks! Makes sense, will have to try this tomorrow. When I ride at the moment, between clamping down on the heel plates and the tank I can keep my arms fairly light, but it falls apart when the rear brake and shifter come into it. I can imagine with the outside leg against the tank a bit more, I'll have a more stable point to hold my weight against.

Edit: what about low speed scenarios? Around town, I find myself sliding forward constantly, even without braking. Is it just the nature of the more aggressive sportsbike posture?

Hyosung make sprotsbikes? Really? Since when? :confused:

[Squiggles]

Use your knees to grip, and if necessary get some stomp grip/similar for the tank

[bogan]

Thanks! Makes sense, will have to try this tomorrow. When I ride at the moment, between clamping down on the heel plates and the tank I can keep my arms fairly light, but it falls apart when the rear brake and shifter come into it. I can imagine with the outside leg against the tank a bit more, I'll have a more stable point to hold my weight against.

Edit: what about low speed scenarios? Around town, I find myself sliding forward constantly, even without braking. Is it just the nature of the more aggressive sportsbike posture?

I've just dug out my Lee Parks high performance street riding techniques book; he says slide back in seat to protect the jewels, and weight furthur back allows quicker stops, lower back gets a workout holding up torso so not on arms, and grip tank with knees to stop yourself sliding forwards (i got to work on this stuff I think).

With regard to slower riding, doubt it makes much difference, is the shock preload adjusted to your weight? if wrong the back could b higher and make you slide forwards perhaps?

when I got my bros the seat was in such a way that you sank in towards the front, I put some extra foam in it now and its greatly reduced that problem.

[CookMySock]

I suggest you actually move to the side a little before you start braking. This'll mean your inner thigh will press up against the back of the tank, taking your weight off your arms, and the knee on the other leg will be firmly pressed into the tank. Doing that you're in a much better position to take the corner as your body weight is slightly inside the line of the bike. You don't need to move to the side much, just to the edge of the seat.I can confirm the Hyosung R's respond well to this, but I would also suggest you slide your ass as far back on the seat as it will go and crack a little bit of throttle on when cornering hard. The hyos really like as much weight on the back wheel as possible when cornering or they feel jittery.

Also the hyo R's are quite sensitive to the rider leaning on the bars - over a certain angle of lean they will tip and dive deeply into the corner - most unsettling. Best get your weight right off the bars and then the bike is stable and predictable.

Best place to fiddle with all this stuff is on the track.

Steve

[Mental Trousers]

I can confirm the Hyosung R's respond well to this, but I would also suggest you slide your ass as far back on the seat as it will go and crack a little bit of throttle on when cornering hard. The hyos really like as much weight on the back wheel as possible when cornering or they feel jittery.

Also the hyo R's are quite sensitive to the rider leaning on the bars - over a certain angle of lean they will tip and dive deeply into the corner - most unsettling. Best get your weight right off the bars and then the bike is stable and predictable.

All down to the quality (or rather lack) of the suspension and the adjustment of that suspension.

[CookMySock]

All down to the quality (or rather lack) of the suspension and the adjustment of that suspension.I am sure. Concisely, what suspension characteristics would you associate with both of those traits?

Steve

[Mental Trousers]

Wrong weight springs and inadequate damping. Can't get more precise than that over the net.

[Sentox]

Hyosung make sprotsbikes? Really? Since when? :confused:

To be perfectly honest, I don't know anyone who makes sprotsbikes :confused:


if necessary get some stomp grip/similar for the tank

This might be the go. No matter how hard I grip with my knees, the sides of the tank just seem too slippery.

[vindy500]

This is new to me... I've always hugged the tank. So, what gives? I found on the low bar sports bike, that I would always slide forward into the tank, but with the naked bike with higher bars, I'm not hugging it sooo much. Should I not be doing this?

Interesting thread...

its ok for you, due to your lack of testicals

[Little Miss Trouble]

To be perfectly honest, I don't know anyone who makes sprotsbikes :confused:

I see you are new here, go read the KB dictionary, heres a few to get you started: Sprotsbikes are the most awesome bikes ever, except hondas, hondas are ghey, except my man owns one so its allowed to prak in the gargre

[Mully]

except my man owns one so its allowed to prak in the gargre

LOL - that's a bit dodgy.

There was a KB Lexicon in the Wiki, but some bastage has gone and moved it....

[jonbuoy]

What gear do you wear? If I'm wearing jeans I find I slip forward in the seat and gradually give myself a wedgie if I don't readjust at the traffic lights, no problems with touring pants on.

[Sentox]

I see you are new here, go read the KB dictionary, heres a few to get you started: Sprotsbikes are the most awesome bikes ever, except hondas, hondas are ghey, except my man owns one so its allowed to prak in the gargre

Given that my eventual aim is to replace my Hyosung with a Honda, I guess I'm irredeemably ghey. Alas. I shall resign myself to a life of placing my r's after the vowels.

[Little Miss Trouble]

LOL - that's a bit dodgy.

There was a KB Lexicon in the Wiki, but some bastage has gone and moved it....

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/121518-Logistics-of-sex-on-a-bike...

;)

[Mully]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/121518-Logistics-of-sex-on-a-bike...

;)

"You must spread some bling....."

[Gwinch]

I see you are new here, go read the KB dictionary, heres a few to get you started: Sprotsbikes are the most awesome bikes ever, except hondas, hondas are ghey, except my man owns one so its allowed to prak in the gargre

I do so love my Honda and the Arse Sex. ;)

[p.dath]

Couple of thoughts. Make sure you don't polish your tank with anything. Only use simple cleaners.

Next, I find it much harder to grip using my Cordura than I do my leathers. So your gear may be affecting it.

Also I never put anything on my gear, like water proofing agents or leather protectors. They often make your gear more "slippery".

[Laxi]

I find it depends on the bike.
ZZR where the weight is pretty even i slid forward against the tank knee away from the corner gripping the tank, but with the FZR where the weight is all at the front i actually slide back so my arse is against the pillion cushion and grip the tank from there, the bike just dosn't seem to lean over properly otherwise

[Sentox]

Couple of thoughts. Make sure you don't polish your tank with anything. Only use simple cleaners.

:doh: I feel like a right genius now. And I was feeling so satisfied with my exuberant polishing efforts too :laugh:

[Little Miss Trouble]

:doh: I feel like a right genius now. And I was feeling so satisfied with my exuberant polishing efforts too :laugh:

Let me guess, you've been polishing it daily with vigor?

[Gwinch]

Let me guess, you've been polishing it daily with vigor?

... and Sentox, if not, why not? A man needs to take meticulous care of his machinery to ensure it's in perfect working order.

[BiK3RChiK]

its ok for you, due to your lack of testicals

LOL Ok, as you were....

[crazyhorse]

Don't worry about where you sit on the seat. Its more of being comfortable.

At the moment you are concentrating on your arse, not letting what comes naturally occur. You should be concentratiing on the road and your riding style.

Relax and have fun :yes:

[Sentox]

... and Sentox, if not, why not? A man needs to take meticulous care of his machinery to ensure it's in perfect working order.

Precisely. No good leaving it unattended until some girl wants to ride on it and suddenly something isn't working right.

Although sadly I'm a learner, so I'm not allowed to let girls ride on it :(

[Crisis management]

I do begin to wonder if we aren't at risk of over thinking this riding bikes bit........ really, a thread about where your arse goes?




Bike riding is really simple, you sit on it, ride around as much as you want grinning your head off, when you've had enough you stop and do something else. YMMV

[sinfull]

:doh: I feel like a right genius now. And I was feeling so satisfied with my exuberant polishing efforts too :laugh: I spose your seat really looks good after the shine ya gave that too ?

Give willy a call at speed tech in hamilton for some stomp, if he dont have a kit for the hyo he has blanks ya can cut to shape !

But to be honest with ya here, if your sliding forward under brakes (a learner and on a bike which has well documented suspension issues) your pushing the boundaries !
Do a search on here (or google) for "the Pace" , well worth the read and if you can learn to ride at "the pace" chances are you will enjoy your ride far more ! Not to mention come out of your learner experienced unscathed !

[Okey Dokey]

Hi sentox; I'm the one who suggested tank gripping in your thread about downhill cornering. I hope all this "thinking" about stuff doesn't overwhelm you on the road!

But here is another thought, anyway. Do you have your feet resting on the footpegs by your arch, or on the balls of your feet. If you use the arch, it may assist you to stay away from sliding toward the tank, or make it easier to grip with your legs.

With all the advice you are receiving, maybe just try out one change at a time. Time in the saddle will help you find what is most comfortable and best for you. Good luck! I have been riding for years and still learning. I don't think I will ever feel I have totally 'mastered" it. But that is probably a healthy attitude to have. :)

[Katman]

But to be honest with ya here, if your sliding forward under brakes (a learner and on a bike which has well documented suspension issues) your pushing the boundaries !
Do a search on here (or google) for "the Pace" , well worth the read and if you can learn to ride at "the pace" chances are you will enjoy your ride far more ! Not to mention come out of your learner experienced unscathed !

There's your answer right there.

[R-Soul]

I do begin to wonder if we aren't at risk of over thinking this riding bikes bit........ really, a thread about where your arse goes?

Bike riding is really simple, you sit on it, ride around as much as you want grinning your head off, when you've had enough you stop and do something else. YMMV

No such thing as "over thinking". Thats why we ride bikes at all, and dont walk.
Ill tell you what- you go hide your headin the sand and continue to stagnate in your riding, while we think on it and learn better techniques and feel more confident with better control.

Every sport is about technique - from surfing to athletics- to deny this is like saying that water does not flow downhill. If you dont want to better your technique, thats fine, but why criticise others?

[R-Soul]

The current advice I'm following is to leave a couple of inches between the tank and my crotch. From a static perspective, it is more comfortable and balanced than jamming my butt against the back of the seat, or pressing up against the tank...

The problem is that despite my best efforts to grip the tank with my knees, I just simply can't stop myself from sliding forward under heavy braking (especially on a bumpy surface) unless I put weight on the bars, which is obviously bad.

So do I just need to practice more, or adjust my seating position?

(Yes, I'm asking for advice on where to put my crotch. Restrain yourselves :shutup:)

My bike also has a seat that angles quite steeply into the tank - sliding forward is a matter of course.
There are a few immediate things that you can do to help.
One (as mentioned by renegade master) is to get tank grips - called stompgrip (also others available - called Cobra or something?). they are silicon/rubber grip pads that stick to teh side of your tank.

Another (MOST IMPORTANTLY) is to use this technique in the corners: When approaching the corner, open up your inside hip (not leg) to the corner side - i.e. move your inside hip backwards relative to your outside hip- and move your bum to the edge of the seat so that you are still sitting on it (no further- hanging it off is bad as it will cause you to hang on your bars and tension your arms), so that you are facing at a bit of an angle into the corner. In this position, when you lean into the corner, your back should be straight and not twisted to "kiss the mirrors".

You keep your outside leg against the tank, and sit slightly back in the seat. This is so that the front of your outside leg does not have to move outwardly to the corner before moving inwardly again when you move your bum sideways- this destabilises things.

With your hip opened up, the feeling is surprisingly balanced and natural, and allows your back to support you in a natural, straight backed position and allows you to get low and to the side of the tank easily and comfortably. The feeling of slidingdonwn and sore nuts is less serious (perhaps because your hips are now at an angle to the seat/tank, so it leaves a gap for your cojones).

Also, when changing corners from one side to another, you FIRST move the outer leg into and against the tank, and then the other side out. This means you always have a leg against the tank to help stabilise your body relative to the bike. If both legs are off the tank, this destabilses your body relativbe to the bike, and is easier to destabilse the bike. I don't claim to be an expert, but I have read a lot and reserached on riding techniques. And I have tried it out and it makes s huge difference to stability and confidence in the corner. This is also stuff I saw from California Superbike School and other lecture videos on youtube.

[Katman]

Every sport is about technique - from surfing to athletics- to deny this is like saying that water does not flow downhill. If you dont want to better your technique, thats fine, but why criticise others?

And there is a very real danger in looking upon riding motorcycles on the road as a 'sport'.

[bogan]

And there is a very real danger in looking upon riding motorcycles on the road as a 'sport'.

riding is more of a game I reckon, like frogger, gotta use the road without being squashed by the cars and trucks, pity theres no re-spawns in real life :mellow:

[Crisis management]

Ill tell you what- you go hide your headin the sand and continue to stagnate in your riding, while we think on it and learn better techniques and feel more confident with better control.


My point, vaque and well disguised that it was, was that as a person starting out on bikes I wonder how much you gain from talking about where your arse sits on the bike as against going for a ride.
I agree that the likes of Code provides valuable tools but I don't think they are aimed at beginners, learners should study the basic techniques then apply them, seat time (IMHO) is one of the best ways of learning.

As with all these posts, it's just my opinion, take from it what you will.

[Sentox]

My point, vaque and well disguised that it was, was that as a person starting out on bikes I wonder how much you gain from talking about where your arse sits on the bike as against going for a ride.

My policy thus far has always been both. I don't expect to learn by osmosis, but I'm a technical sort of person, and from the beginning I've always worked to try and learn as much as I can mentally to apply when I'm riding. YMMV.

@R Sole: Thanks a lot for the advice, especially about swapping sides. Going to order some stomp grip too, hopefully that will help.

[Crisis management]

My policy thus far has always been both. I don't expect to learn by osmosis, but I'm a technical sort of person, and from the beginning I've always worked to try and learn as much as I can mentally to apply when I'm riding. YMMV.

Sounds sensible, enjoy!

If you really want to learn how to ride a road bike tho, sell the one you have and buy a road legal trail bike and ride in the dirt.

[R-Soul]

My point, vaque and well disguised that it was, was that as a person starting out on bikes I wonder how much you gain from talking about where your arse sits on the bike as against going for a ride.
I agree that the likes of Code provides valuable tools but I don't think they are aimed at beginners, learners should study the basic techniques then apply them, seat time (IMHO) is one of the best ways of learning.

As with all these posts, it's just my opinion, take from it what you will.

Sure I agree that there is nothing like saddle time- else we would all just sit around and talk about it...

For me it just makes sense to know what you should be doing, instead of learning bad habits from the start. Rather ingrain good habits from the start so that you dont have to unlearn them later. But the only way that you can know if they are good or bad habits is by learning from others experience, or finding out by trial and error - not my cup of tea, considering error could mean death.

[CookMySock]

I agree that the likes of Code provides valuable tools but I don't think they are aimed at beginners, learners should study the basic techniques then apply them, seat time (IMHO) is one of the best ways of learning.There is little or no point developing our own riding style from scratch and then embedding it into habit over a year or two, when we can simply nick someone elses' more experienced one and go away and rehearse it.

Steve

[Tank]

This is new to me... I've always hugged the tank.

:hug::hug::hug::love::love::love::hug::hug::hug:

[Katman]

There is little or no point developing our own riding style from scratch and then embedding it into habit over a year or two, when we can simply nick someone elses' more experienced one and go away and rehearse it.

Steve

The trouble with inexperienced riders filling up their brains with too much theory in too short a time is that when it comes to the crunch the brain cannot process all the information that it has fast enough.

That's why riding skills need to be learned gradually if they are ever to have the chance of becoming instinctive.

[Maha]

Didn't know there was set rule as to where you should sit on ya bike?
At times I am balls to tank, other times I slide back a bit, depends on the mode...:scooter:

[Sentox]

:hug::hug::hug::love::love::love::hug::hug::hug:

Hopefully it makes up for all those balls people are pressing against you, eh?

[Headbanger]

This thread is insane.

Only time I consciously consider my arse is when it gets sore, then I move it somewhere it isn't quite so sore....until it gets sore again, at which time I do another little shuffle.

[Maha]

This thread is insane.

Only time I consciously consider my arse is when it gets sore, then I move it somewhere it isn't quite so sore....until it gets sore again, at which time I do another little shuffle.

Basically what I was saying.
Some things can be over analysed

[Katman]

I'm surprised p.dath hasn't made it a Wiki topic yet.

[R-Soul]

Sounds sensible, enjoy!

If you really want to learn how to ride a road bike tho, sell the one you have and buy a road legal trail bike and ride in the dirt.

It does give you more confidence if your back wheel steps out of line, but is not always the way to go. I just recently had a cousin come over to visit. He has cut his teeth on trail bikes, is avery experienced rider, rides a KTM 950 Super Enduro , and was still using trail bike technique to go around corners on tar at 200km/hr - and he was wondering why his traction was rubbish...

When I say trail bike technique, I mean leaning your body in an opposite direction to the turn, and sticking a leg out. But not necessarily breaking traction by powering on.

The way I see (and correct me if I am wrong), trail bike technique is for relatively low speed corners where you lean the bike over in an effort to reduce the turning circle, and to encourage the breaking of traction to swing the direction of the bike around to exit the corner with strong acceleration- NOT something you want to do on a fast tar road. Sure the supermoto riders do it that way, but they actually spin their wheeels into a corner on purpose to assist their bike in changing direction. It takes a lot of guts and skill (and stupidity) to attempt that at speed on the road....

[sinfull]

I'm surprised p.dath hasn't made it a Wiki topic yet. He's thinking it over ! Or emailing someone in the UK about it !

[jonbuoy]

Theres a lot worse threads around, a new rider asking for advise on how to stop sliding around in the seat isn't that outrageous, daft or even overthinking it.

[Katman]

Theres a lot worse threads around, a new rider asking for advise on how to stop sliding around in the seat isn't that outrageous, daft or even overthinking it.

Refer post #34

[jonbuoy]

Refer post #34

If hes not gripping the tank or using his feet for bracing he won't have to be braking particularly hard at the end of a motorway or on a steep down hill to be sliding forward in the seat, especially if he made the schoolboy error of using armour all or plastic polish on the seat or tank sides - which sounds like a possibility.

[sinfull]

If hes not gripping the tank or using his feet for bracing he won't have to be braking particularly hard at the end of a motorway or on a steep down hill to be sliding forward in the seat, especially if he made the schoolboy error of using armour all or plastic polish on the seat or tank sides - which sounds like a possibility.
Have you read "the pace" ?

[Sentox]

Should probably clarify a few things here.

1. I grip using my knees and my heels.

2. I am familiar with "the pace": my riding bible is Nick Ienatsch's Sport Riding Techniques. I'm not hurling myself into corners as hot as the bike can go, threshhold braking down to the tip-in point, and then coming on here to complain about sliding forward. I have the problem when cruising in 50kph zones, throttle open, no brakes. No matter how hard I grip the tank, I slide forward until my knees butt into the corners of the fairings, which isn't particularly comfortable. Braking, even mildly, just exacerbates the problem. This, however, leads to point three.

3. Yes, I did use polish on the sides of the tank. Bit of a facepalm in retrospect. At least I'm not dumb enough to armor-all the seat :p

[jonbuoy]

Have you read "the pace" ?

Yes - I started a thread a few years ago asking if anyone was interested in Pace rides, at the time there was very little interest and it was lost in the most bins wins threads. I use Nick Ienatsch Sport riding techniques as my bible, I still re-read as there is only so much you can take in at a time. The best bit of advise any newbie could get is to ignore all the bollocks and bravado on KB and buy a copy.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/21695-Nick-Ientash-The-Pace

[Katman]

Sorry, but no-one has problems sliding around on their seat while just cruising at 50kph while not braking.

We weren't all born yesterday.

[p.dath]

I'm surprised p.dath hasn't made it a Wiki topic yet.

Have you seen my emergency braking blog ...
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/entry.php/1453-Motorcycle-Emergency-Braking

[jonbuoy]

Sorry, but no-one has problems sliding around on their seat while just cruising at 50kph while not braking.

We weren't all born yesterday.

I assume at some point he is going to want to stop, or maybe venture out for a ride that might involve a motorway or a few hills? Regardless he seems to have worked out his mistake.

[Katman]

Have you seen my emergency braking blog ...


I'll try not to.



But seriously - p.dath, you're a prime example.

If theoretical knowledge equalled motorcycling ability you'd be setting the MotoGP world on fire.

Instead you're changing into first gear at 70kph while braking into a corner and ending up on your arse................... and then wondering why.

[Headbanger]

Its a trick question right?



The answer is, Buy a bike that doesn't suck.

[Sentox]

Sorry, but no-one has problems sliding around on their seat while just cruising at 50kph while not braking.

We weren't all born yesterday.

No offense, but I'm glad you're not my mentor. What exactly do I have to gain by inventing a problem?

Also, I didn't say I was sliding around... I'm sliding forward, a much more specific problem. I don't see how it's that hard to believe. The sportsbike posture inclines weight towards the front, jeans and a polished tank don't exactly generate a ton of friction (hell, even my leathers don't, although things improve at lower speeds), and road surfaces around here are less than perfect. If my weight is biased forward, I can't get purchase on the tank, and I'm running over bumps and other imperfections, what exactly is going to happen?

Either way, I've ordered some stomp grips, and will be cleaning off the sides of the tank. If that doesn't solve it, I will concede to being a troll.

Edit: alright, to be fair, if I was on nice smooth road, I'm not going to slide forward into the tank. There just aren't many of those roads around.

[Headbanger]

Have you seen my emergency braking blog ...
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/entry.php/1453-Motorcycle-Emergency-Braking


Oh how I laughed.

[davebullet]

Sorry, but no-one has problems sliding around on their seat while just cruising at 50kph while not braking.

We weren't all born yesterday.

Quite possible if your seat is angled forward and you go over a jarring bump in the road or pot hole and with suspension that does little (cheap = crap like on the SV) - it transmits straight through to the rider lifting you off and depositing you in a different spot on your seat.

Not unless you have a permanent death grip with your knees on the tank - but who does that cruising in a straight line?

[sinfull]

Yes - I started a thread a few years ago asking if anyone was interested in Pace rides, at the time there was very little interest and it was lost in the most bins wins threads. I use Nick Ienatsch Sport riding techniques as my bible, I still re-read as there is only so much you can take in at a time. The best bit of advise any newbie could get is to ignore all the bollocks and bravado on KB and buy a copy.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/21695-Nick-Ientash-The-Pace Sweet ! Hows the weather over there ?
I've never read the article, but thought it appropriate to try and do the decent thing here and let a guy know, that as a learner fanging up the road and then hitting the brakes was as i said, pushing boundaries, polished or not !

Yeah i ride at a pace ! A rather unique (ya think) technique where i switched from riding a bike with great brakes, to a bike near a third more weight and half the brakes and then up the "pace" !
Fucking great ! Can't think of a better near death experience ! Well maybe jumping out of a perfectly good aircraft will work (i'll let ya know)

[jonbuoy]

Sweet ! Hows the weather over there ?
I've never read the article, but thought it appropriate to try and do the decent thing here and let a guy know, that as a learner fanging up the road and then hitting the brakes was as i said, pushing boundaries, polished or not !

Yeah i ride at a pace ! A rather unique (ya think) technique where i switched from riding a bike with great brakes, to a bike near a third more weight and half the brakes and then up the "pace" !
Fucking great ! Can't think of a better near death experience ! Well maybe jumping out of a perfectly good aircraft will work (i'll let ya know)

Skydive eh? :Punk: Nice one probably be a bit more a rush than the bike - probably safer too! Weathers good here mate, gearing up for summer. If only the Spanish would learn to pick up their dog shit :sick: and not dump rubbish in the streets... Missing clean green NZ but thems the breaks needs must blah blah . Have fun on the dive mate.

[sinfull]

Skydive eh? :Punk: Nice one probably be a bit more a rush than the bike - probably safer too! Weathers good here mate, gearing up for summer. If only the Spanish would learn to pick up their dog shit :sick: and not dump rubbish in the streets... Missing clean green NZ but thems the breaks needs must blah blah . Have fun on the dive mate. Will do that (i hope) hey clean green on paper only though aye ! I have to avoid taking my dog to the local river or shes sick for three days (god help the kids that swim there) should know by the green sludge thats washing up on the beaches though i guess !
They're picking up our recycling and dumping it all in a landfill with all the other waste !
Makes ya think aye

[Crisis management]

The way I see (and correct me if I am wrong)..

Man what an invite! (The rest of you argue quietly in the corner over there, this is my "discussion"!)

Look, I'm not suggesting you take moto X or enduro riding techniques and apply them on the road, unless you are on a bike that suits those techniques, as an aside, if your mate couldn't hand you your arse on a 950 SE then he needs to learn how to ride (assuming you where on the VTR).

Bike handling is all about maintaining traction on the contact patches and that is achieved by learning how balance, weight distribution and accelleration and braking forces affect those two contact patches. As a generalisation, putting around on a road bike on the road does not teach those skills particularly quickly whereas riding on dirt does, it has constantly changing traction available, terrain variations and an awful lot of direction changes, you learn how to maintain traction or you fall off.
You take those skills and apply them to road riding and you will be a better rider, without doing any research, the names Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer and Colin Edwards spring to mind as riders that have done that.

You can certainly become a very good road rider without ever getting involved with dirt riding, I spent the first 30 years of my riding "career" on asphalt and have never found it difficult to find the limits of traction on a road bike but I learnt more in one year of enduro riding than I did in those 30 years.
At the end of the day, I am simply offering my limited opinion and the OP can take what he wants from it, I only know what works for me and offer any advice on that basis.

YMMV

[Sentox]

I'm all for building skill in any way possible, really. I just don't have the budget to get into offroad at the moment. One day...

[Katman]

No offense, but I'm glad you're not my mentor.

Judging by some of your previous posts here, I'm not surprised.

[R-Soul]

Man what an invite! (The rest of you argue quietly in the corner over there, this is my "discussion"!)

:yes: hehe yeah I guess I did ask for it..




Look, I'm not suggesting you take moto X or enduro riding techniques and apply them on the road, unless you are on a bike that suits those techniques, as an aside, if your mate couldn't hand you your arse on a 950 SE then he needs to learn how to ride (assuming you where on the VTR).

That is my point exactly - he NEEDS TO LEARN HOW TO RIDE (on road- he is damn good off road). We were not riding together so I cannot comment on whether he was faster - he probably would be because I dont ride fast on the road. But he was telling me that at 200km/hr on a sweeping fast bend he was driftinginto teh oncoming lane. But he also said that he was leaning his bodyweight outwardly to lean his bike in as much as he could. This goes against the design of the bike (ALL bikes), which requires the bike to be more uprioght to create better traction and hence less drifting.

I am not saying that off road techniques cannot be useful (to GP riders too) on the road (going into and coming out of corners), and give confidence where traction is lost, but at the end of the day, both riders are dealing with the same set of rules here- physics. Its a matter of knowing when one technique will be more useful and more effective.

PS in defence of the VTR - it is not down by much on power or torque (if at all). The mian difference is in suspensuion. But that is largely negated by him leaning his bike over as much as he can in turns, while I keep mine upright....


... you learn how to maintain traction or you fall off.

As I understand it, in dirt biking, you learn how to maintain balance while having lost traction or you fall off. Because dirt bikes are all about breaking traction to assist your corner entry and exit (again, and I am a sucker for punishment here, but tell me if this is incorrect).

These are the facts:
1) When you lean the bike over more, it has less traction (unless you are on a berm).
2) When you lean outward, the bike leans in more.
3) Leaning the bike over more allows it to make sharper turns at slow speed (when not counter steering)
4) Dirt bikers use leaning to create traction breakaway to align their bikes for the next corner better, and to turn sharper in low speed corners.
5) On high speed corners on dirt, traction breaks away so fast that they dont even bother trying to maintain traction sideways on the tyre, they just angle the bikes back wheel to face inwardly of the corner, and use the the scrabbling of the tyre inwardly as a replacement for sideways traction (think dirt speedway).


You take those skills and apply them to road riding and you will be a better rider, without doing any research, the names Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer and Colin Edwards spring to mind as riders that have done that.

No arguments there. But these guys first ride with correct technique for the track/road at high speed until they have exceeded the limits, after which they use their dirt bike balancing techniques to maintain balance once their traction is lost, or if they see that they have gone into a corner too fast because they were dragging somone else on the straight. But its a reversion to these techniques in case of emergency manouvering, not a preference for them (since breaking traction on purpose results in increased tire wear and will NOT get you around a corner as fast as if you do it smoothly and with maximum traction available -that is just straight logic).

OK, Haga slides into and out of corners regularly but he is a master and regularly ends up struggling with tyres at the end of the race....



You can certainly become a very good road rider without ever getting involved with dirt riding, I spent the first 30 years of my riding "career" on asphalt and have never found it difficult to find the limits of traction on a road bike but I learnt more in one year of enduro riding than I did in those 30 years.
At the end of the day, I am simply offering my limited opinion and the OP can take what he wants from it, I only know what works for me and offer any advice on that basis.

YMMV

I am not saying you are wrong - and I am sorry if it came out like that - all that I am saying is that a good understanding of what is actually happening in both scenarios is critical, so that you dont end up mistakenly applying a poorer technique to bad situations that will actually make it worse.

I say flat out that I have had limited experience in trail riding (although I have had a little bit- which I subjected to my typical applied mathematics analysis).

I am probably Katman's prime example of a person who understands too much, but has not had enough time in the saddle to be able to apply it properly. And Katman, I undertsand that too much info can be confusing, but surely too little info can also be deadly?

[The Stranger]

No such thing as "over thinking".

I see you haven't met pdath yet.

[R-Soul]

I see you haven't met pdath yet.

I am probably as bad or worse to be honest...

[Crisis management]

I tried answering this but it has got a long way from where the OP was asking about how weight affects handling (I think that was the question??) so I'm stopping now.

See if you can find some info on how Kenny Roberts teaches riding skills, that may be an easier way to explain it.

[p.dath]

I see you haven't met pdath yet.

Since you tempted me; I can't gree with most of post #75 that has been stated as "fact".
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/121590-Position-in-seat?p=1129712458#post1129712458

If he was drifting into the outside lane at 200km/h then it is just as likely it was because of the speed and not a loss of traction.

Leaning out when the bike leans in is completely pointless. This is just balancing the centre of mass (COM) again. If you want to turn you need to lean in the same direction as the bike so that the COM moves from being in line with the bike over to the side of the bike - in the direction you are turning.

Road bike tyres are curved (you'll notice the outside has a larger circumference than the middle). Just because you are leaned over doesn't mean your contact patch (aka traction) will be reduced, or that you are at more risk of going for a slide.

That's the short version of my thoughts.

[p.dath]

And while you have me going, I substantially disagree with this statement:

Leaning the bike over more allows it to make sharper turns at slow speed (when not counter steering)

Just to make it clear; counter-steering is the brief input you provide into the steering to commence a turn. Once the bike is leaned over you don't need to provide further input into the steering in the opposite direction unless you want the bike to lean over more/turn harder.

The lean angle required = arctan(v^2 / gr), where g=gravity and r=radius of turn.


As you can see from the formula above, if your speed is low, then the lean angle has to be almost 90% if you have a small "r"adius of turn. If you exceed the lean angle then the bike will simply fall over.

[Katman]

As you can see from the formula above,

:thud:<hgvhgvhjv>

[The Stranger]

Since you tempted me; I can't gree with most of post #75 that has been stated as "fact".
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/121590-Position-in-seat?p=1129712458#post1129712458

If he was drifting into the outside lane at 200km/h then it is just as likely it was because of the speed and not a loss of traction.

Leaning out when the bike leans in is completely pointless. This is just balancing the centre of mass (COM) again. If you want to turn you need to lean in the same direction as the bike so that the COM moves from being in line with the bike over to the side of the bike - in the direction you are turning.

Road bike tyres are curved (you'll notice the outside has a larger circumference than the middle). Just because you are leaned over doesn't mean your contact patch (aka traction) will be reduced, or that you are at more risk of going for a slide.

That's the short version of my thoughts.


And while you have me going, I substantially disagree with this statement:


Just to make it clear; counter-steering is the brief input you provide into the steering to commence a turn. Once the bike is leaned over you don't need to provide further input into the steering in the opposite direction unless you want the bike to lean over more/turn harder.

The lean angle required = arctan(v^2 / gr), where g=gravity and r=radius of turn.


As you can see from the formula above, if your speed is low, then the lean angle has to be almost 90% if you have a small "r"adius of turn. If you exceed the lean angle then the bike will simply fall over.



I am probably as bad or worse to be honest...

Ya think you're worse? Honestly?

[R-Soul]

Since you tempted me; I can't gree with most of post #75 that has been stated as "fact".
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/121590-Position-in-seat?p=1129712458#post1129712458


I only stated four points as (what I think are) fact - which one is wrong? I have gone back ad numvbered them for convenience.


If he was drifting into the outside lane at 200km/h then it is just as likely it was because of the speed and not a loss of traction.

Very possibly- and because he was at an uncomfortable (MX style) position in which to execute counter steering.


Leaning out when the bike leans in is completely pointless. This is just balancing the centre of mass (COM) again. If you want to turn you need to lean in the same direction as the bike so that the COM moves from being in line with the bike over to the side of the bike - in the direction you are turning.

Actually for a given speed when the bike is equilibrium in a corner (i.e. not falling over more or less), the COM is fixed and does not move (remember the compnent . BUT, where the relative COM of each of the rider and bike is does make a difference (since you want the bike more upright for better suspension operation and therefore better traction). The further inward teh rider is, the more upright the bike is. But the COm of both the bike and rider stays the same.



Road bike tyres are curved (you'll notice the outside has a larger circumference than the middle). Just because you are leaned over doesn't mean your contact patch (aka traction) will be reduced, or that you are at more risk of going for a slide.


It is not the contact patch size that makes the difference. Its the operation of the suspension to keep that patch on the ground. There can be no traction when the wheel is in the air.

[aprilia_RS250]

And while you have me going, I substantially disagree with this statement:


The lean angle required = arctan(v^2 / gr), where g=gravity and r=radius of turn.

.

I think that function spits out g force not lean angle...

[aprilia_RS250]

And while you have me going, I substantially disagree with this statement:
The lean angle required = arctan(v^2 / gr), where g=gravity and r=radius of turn.
.

I may be wrong but I think that function spits out g force, not the leaning angle required...

[p.dath]

I think that function spits out g force not lean angle...

Nope, lean angle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_steering#Need_to_lean_to_turn

[Katman]

Fuck it - I'm selling the bikes and taking up stamp collecting.

[R-Soul]

And while you have me going, I substantially disagree with this statement:


Just to make it clear; counter-steering is the brief input you provide into the steering to commence a turn. Once the bike is leaned over you don't need to provide further input into the steering in the opposite direction unless you want the bike to lean over more/turn harder.

The lean angle required = arctan(v^2 / gr), where g=gravity and r=radius of turn.


As you can see from the formula above, if your speed is low, then the lean angle has to be almost 90% if you have a small "r"adius of turn. If you exceed the lean angle then the bike will simply fall over.

No you misread my post - I meant when NOT counterstering, and at low speed. For example when making a tight circle in a car park at close to walking speed. When you are doing this, the correct technique is to turn the bike steering in the direction of the corner, and then lean the bike over in the direction of the turn. Since its low speed, the functioning of the suspension is not an issue, and when the bike is leaned over, a smaller turn radius is possible.

Similarly, when dirt biking on small radius slow corners (eg hairpin), you can either do it that way, or break traction at the back wheel and align the back wheel to face slightly inwardly, so that the forward scrabbling traction of the back wheel has both a forward and inward component.

[sinfull]

Must be time for me to give up riding, You have to be a mathematician to know how much to lean into a corner now !

[R-Soul]

If he was drifting into the outside lane at 200km/h then it is just as likely it was because of the speed and not a loss of traction.



I thought about this some more. There may not be catastrophic loss of traction, but when teh suspension is not working correctly, it "skips" into the air with miniscule jumps every time it hits a small bump. The combined effect of many small skips while the bike is being pushed outwardly in a corner, will cause the bike to run wide, necessitating a harder countersteering input and a therfore a harder lean angle (which means the suspension performs even worse, creating a bit of a downward spiral).

[R-Soul]

I tried answering this but it has got a long way from where the OP was asking about how weight affects handling (I think that was the question??) so I'm stopping now.

See if you can find some info on how Kenny Roberts teaches riding skills, that may be an easier way to explain it.

No worries - I did not mean our banter as an argument - more as a discussion of the principles- I am more than willing to learn from anyone. and I agree with you that having dirt bike skills adds a lot to your abilities as a rider.

[R-Soul]

Must be time for me to give up riding, You have to be a mathematician to know how much to lean into a corner now !

We're just trying to psyche out everyone before the next track day..

[p.dath]

Actually for a given speed when the bike is equilibrium in a corner (i.e. not falling over more or less), the COM is fixed and does not move (remember the compnent . BUT, where the relative COM of each of the rider and bike is does make a difference (since you want the bike more upright for better suspension operation and therefore better traction). The further inward teh rider is, the more upright the bike is. But the COm of both the bike and rider stays the same.

I guess I can't agree with this. I don't see any point in leaning the bike over if your not going to lean with it. If your going to lean the bike over but move your body outward then you might just as well lean the bike less.

Why fight the lean of the bike - that you have put the bike into?


It is not the contact patch size that makes the difference. Its the operation of the suspension to keep that patch on the ground. There can be no traction when the wheel is in the air.

Assuming the contact patch is the same in both cases and the same road surface, there is no reason that the suspension should not be smooth both leaned over or when straight up.
The bike is not suddenly more likely to loose traction just because you lean it over into a corner.

[sinfull]

We're just trying to psyche out everyone before the next track day..
Ya got me ! I'll be taping a calculator to my bars for tomorrows Motott !

[R-Soul]

I guess I can't agree with this. I don't see any point in leaning the bike over if your not going to lean with it. If your going to lean the bike over but move your body outward then you might just as well lean the bike less.

Why fight the lean of the bike - that you have put the bike into?

Your own equation proves this. Do you see a designation for mass in there? No! The mass is not relevant because it gets cancelled out in the derivation of that equation. The centrifugal accelration is acting on the same mass, and the mass acting inwardly about teh contact pact is creating the balancing force against the centrfiugal accelration. And the whole equation relates to "lean angle required". Lean angle aof WHAT do you think? Bike and rider of course.

By the principle of conservation of angular momentum (for a system in equilibrium): if one mass - the rider- moves clockwise about a point (the contact patch when looking from the front), the other mass - the bike- another must move counter clockwise to remain in equilibrium. (Nature always works to keep a system in equilibrium).


Assuming the contact patch is the same in both cases and the same road surface, there is no reason that the suspension should not be smooth both leaned over or when straight up.
The bike is not suddenly more likely to loose traction just because you lean it over into a corner.
Traction is not about the size of the contact patch- its about the ability of the suspension to hold the contact patch against the ground. The back spring pushes directly downwardly in the line of the bike when viewed from the front. All the dampening and spring settings are designed around the bike operating in an upright position, and upright is the position in which the suspension is most effective.

This is not really debatable- this really IS fact and straight applied mathematics. When the back spring and forks are at an angle, only a component of the reaction force by the ground against the wheel is transmitted to the shock, and only that component is handled by it. the other component has effectively no suspension, and this will cause reduce the effectiveness of the suspension overall.

One day when we are at NASS at the same time, I will draw it out for you.

[R-Soul]

Ya got me ! I'll be taping a calculator to my bars for tomorrows Motott !

Its working- you already have increased mass! Now how am I going to get you take another ton and half on board (so that I have a hope of beating you..)

[aprilia_RS250]

Nope, lean angle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_steering#Need_to_lean_to_turn

Sorry you're right. The function however doesn't take into consideration the fact that as you lean you have less grip/contact with the road, it assumes you're on ice skates or something. This is not the case for bikes.

As bikes have wide tyres the more you lean the less contact you have with the road. The reason you lean normally is because you're changing momentum (momentum is a vector, i.e. it's direction and speed), so you're offsetting the force that's pushing you out of the turn by leaning in.

Now the reason why a biker leans out from the bike towards the apex is so the bike is more upright while maintaining the overall distributed lean angle (this is where your function above comes in where it gives you the "perfect lean" angle). The rider is effectively leaning out from the bike in order to get more grip from the tyres.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics

[Headbanger]

This thread is no longer insane, Its just disappeared up it own backside.

[p.dath]

Your own equation proves this. Do you see a designation for mass in there? No! The mass is not relevant because it gets cancelled out in teh derivation of that equation. The centrifugal accelration is acting on the same mass, and the mass acting inwardly about teh contact pact is creating the balancing force against the centrfiugal accelration. And the whole equation relates to "lean angle required". Lean angle aof WHAT do you think? Bike and rider of course.

By the principle of conservation of angular momentum (for a system in equilibrium): if one mass - the rider- moves clockwise about a point (the contact patch when looking from the front), the other mass - the bike- another must move counter clockwise to remain in equilibrium.

I don't agree. If the rider is in equilibrium with the bike, as you suggest, nothing needs to move. The rider should be moving with the bike - not against it. A rider may momentarily move them self out of equilibrium to affect a change (such as commencing cornering), but otherwise should be in equilibrium with the bike.

If you lean the bike to much into a corner you *could* lean your body out to offset the effect - but what it means is you setup for the corner wrong in the first place, have got the bike off balance, and are having to take corrective action (more throttle would also work), and it won't help you take a corner faster. You need to be leaning with the bike into the corner.


Traction is not about the size of the contact patch- its about the ability of the suspension to hold the contact patch against the ground. The back spring pushes directly downwardly in the line of the bike when viewed from the front. All the dampening and spring settings are designed around the bike operating in an upright position, and upright is the position in which the suspension is most effective. This is not really debatable- this really IS fact and straight applied mathematics. When the back spring and forks are at an angle, only a component of the rection force by the ground against the wheel is transmitted to the shock, and only that component is handled by it. the other component has effectively no suspension, and this will cause reduce the effectiveness of the suspension overall.

I still disagree. Traction is directly affected by how much tyre you get onto the ground. Its directly related to the size of the contact patch. I do agree its directly related to how well the suspension holds the tyre onto the ground.

Are you familiar with camber thrust?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_thrust

[Katman]

Are you familiar with camber thrust?


I'm about to make myself familiar with a knife thrust.

[sinfull]

Do you two realise your arguing the same argument ? Rsole aint saying lean the opposite to the turn !
Tyres are shaped the way they are so you always have the same amount of contact patch on the tarmat upright or leaning (unless the tyre is flat) this is of course if you still have chicken strip left ! If your using up all the chicken strip, then your contact patch will be lessening !
That is the time you need to start moving body off the bike into the corner to change the COG so the bike is more upright and back to the usuall contact patch !

There now fuck off for a ride !

[R-Soul]

I don't agree. If the rider is in equilibrium with the bike, as you suggest, nothing needs to move. The rider should be moving with the bike - not against it. A rider may momentarily move them self out of equilibrium to affect a change (such as commencing cornering), but otherwise should be in equilibrium with the bike.

No, a component of the rider AND bike's weight (when leaning over) is in equilibrium with the centrifugal acceleration acting against their combined weight. For a given speed, the lean angle must be a certain angle (like your equation says) regardless of where the bker and bike are placed individually- as long as their combined COM is at a particular lean angle. If one is far in, the other can be far out, as long as their combined COM is at a particular lean.


If you lean the bike to much into a corner you *could* lean your body out to offset the effect - but what it means is you setup for the corner wrong in the first place, have got the bike off balance, and are having to take corrective action (more throttle would also work), and it won't help you take a corner faster. You need to be leaning with the bike into the corner.

I am saying MX riders do it on piurpose to reduce traction and help break the back wheel out to realign it and to make its rotational power create a force slightly inwardly that substitutes for the loss of sideways traction. Thats why they lean outwardly in a corner.
But you would not want t in a road type situation when you want to maximise traction.


I still disagree. Traction is directly affected by how much tyre you get onto the ground. Its directly related to the size of the contact patch. I do agree its directly related to how well the suspension holds the tyre onto the ground.


Strictly speaking when you have a perfect surface, friction = coefficient of friction X force on contact patch. It has nothing to do with the size of the patch. But in practice, small or nano sclae forces do affect friction according to teh size of the contact patch.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frictionscale

These small scale nano forces are, however, heavily outweighted by the main players in the equation above (i.e. weight or downward force on the contact patch).

The suspension system's main job is to keep the weight acting down on the ground.


Are you familiar with camber thrust?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_thrust

No I was not, but this would only affect the bike when the road camber is at an angle (since it effectively pushes the bike downhill). I also understand that thsi force is relatively minor.

[R-Soul]

There, now I am going for a ride.

[bogan]

I am saying MX riders do it on piurpose to reduce traction and help break the back wheel out to realign it and to make its rotational power create a force slightly inwardly that substitutes for the loss of sideways traction. Thats why they lean outwardly in a corner.
But you would not want t in a road type situation when you want to maximise traction.

Wrong order, we lean outward cos that way its a lot easier to cope if/when the bike does break traction

edit, oh and if you or p.dath want to write a wiki on 'whips' I would be greatly interested! some crazy forces going on in those.

[crazyhorse]

ha ha ha ha yeah right

[bogan]

I was serious, whips being a technique used to jump a motorcycle very flat and turn sideways to the direction of travel in the air, not whips as in the S&M tool, i do not want to know p.dath's or r soles experience in those areas :no:

[GOONR]

Has p.dath been out p.dath'd??

[onearmedbandit]

Ya think you're worse? Honestly?


Fuck it - I'm selling the bikes and taking up stamp collecting.



I'm about to make myself familiar with a knife thrust.


This thread is no longer insane, Its just disappeared up it own backside.


This is the funniest thread I've ever read on KB. I don't think I've ever handed out so much green bling, and deservedly so. Pure gold.

[Headbanger]

Next corner, I'm just going to freeze.

[cb400]

Hi, I'm new here to KB. Trying to find my way around.

[Katman]

Hi, I'm new here to KB. Trying to find my way around.

Don't make any sudden movements and just walk backwards veeeeery slowly.

[steve_t]

Hi, I'm new here to KB. Trying to find my way around.

Welcome to KB :niceone: The forum for discussing the physics of motorcycle riding and whether or not to wave at other riders :laugh: Oh, and don't forget to mention nazis :laugh::laugh:

[Okey Dokey]

Has p.dath been out p.dath'd??

Quite possibly. :) What a very entertaining and informative read.

And welcome, cb400, to the wonderful world that is kb.

[R-Soul]

Wrong order, we lean outward cos that way its a lot easier to cope if/when the bike does break traction

edit, oh and if you or p.dath want to write a wiki on 'whips' I would be greatly interested! some crazy forces going on in those.

Oh OK - that makes a lot of sense too. That'd be the main reason for leaning outwards I guess, as well as letting it break traction quicker. Then again, you probably would want it to hold traction as long as possible right? And not force tractin breakaway too soon. And only once it breaks traction would you revert to realignement of the bike to create an alternate inward force? Is that right?


I know the motard guys break traction on purpose, but I see that sport as being more like drifting, where its not so much about speed as it is about style. Am I right on this?

I have no idea what a "whip" is (at least in the context of MX). I am guessing it is moving the back wheel out of alignment in the air while jumping? While I have never done one, I could try and figure it out on engineering first principles. If its in the air, it would probably relate to the principle of conservation of angular momentum.

[R-Soul]

And PS Hi cb400 - this place is addictive and you can pick oup lots of tips.

Like I learnt yesterday (too late)- dont polish your tank.

[R-Soul]

edit- double post. Mine dissapeared?

[bogan]

Oh OK - that makes a lot of sense too. That'd be teh main reason I guess, as well as letting it break traction quicker. Then againn, you probably would want it to hold traction as long as possible right? And only once it breaks traction would you revert to realignement of the bike to create an alternate inward force.


I know the motard guys break traction on purpose, but I see that sport as being more like drifting, where its not so much about speed as it is about style. Am I right on this?

I have no idea what a "whip" is (at least in the context of MX). I am guessing it is moving the back wheel out of alignment in the air while jumping? While I have never done one, I could try and figure it out on engineering first principles. If its in the air, it would probably relate to the principle of conservation of angular momentum.

a lot of mx stuff it riding ruts anyway, so breaking traction rules etc dont really apply as you're thinking.

I watched the motards at bots and the only regular loss of traction was some braking stutter, so yeh, probly the stuff you saw was drifting for style rather than speed.

this is a whip
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FPwy95hzzu8&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FPwy95hzzu8&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

think it involves more than first principals :bleh:

[R-Soul]

Hell thats awesome!!

Everything works on first principles in applied maths - but your video seems like a layering of many effects, all based on the first principle of conservation of angular momentum. On my observatin many things could be causing the overall look.

The effects could be:
- forces caused by moving gyorcopic effects ( by moving the handlebars and hence the spinning front wheel) and their associated rules
- the way that he leaves the jump (already moving to the side and not stationary) so that he can change the momentum back in mid air to cause some other pat of the bike to move in an opposite rotational angular direction to compensate, and
- changing speed of rotation of the wheels by braking or accelerating, causing the bike tp angle up or down.
-optical illusions from him leaving the ramp at an angle that is not expected (which allows him to be more misaligned from the start).

But I reckon his trick looks so good ecause he combines all of these effects...
AWESOME!

[The Stranger]

So after all that did we get a consensus on if the OP needs to move his seating position or not?
After all that was the question you guys were answering right.

[p.dath]

So after all that did we get a consensus on if the OP needs to move his seating position or not?
After all that was the question you guys were answering right.

How come you have the same avatar as Squiggles?
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/2980-Squiggles (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/2980-Squiggles)

[The Stranger]

How come you have the same avatar as Squiggles?
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/2980-Squiggles (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/2980-Squiggles)


Ah squiggles has the same avatar as me.
What's that got to do with position on the seat?

[bogan]

Hell thats awesome!!

Everything works on first principles in applied maths - but your video seems like a layering of many effects, all based on the first principle of conservation of angular momentum. On my observatin many things could be causing the overall look.

The effects could be:
- forces caused by moving gyorcopic effects ( by moving the handlebars and hence the spinning front wheel) and their associated rules
- the way that he leaves the jump (already moving to the side and not stationary) so that he can change the momentum back in mid air to cause some other pat of the bike to move in an opposite rotational angular direction to compensate, and
- changing speed of rotation of the wheels by braking or accelerating, causing the bike tp angle up or down.
-optical illusions from him leaving the ramp at an angle that is not expected (which allows him to be more misaligned from the start).

But I reckon his trick looks so good ecause he combines all of these effects...
AWESOME!

yeh obviously all those things are present, but the interactions are more what im interested in, for example, turning the bars in mid air puts lean on the bike (countersteering principal), but then the same principal is applied to the rear wheel as it is rotated about the bikes lean axis, which then twists the whole bike in the direction of the steering, and varying the rear wheel speeds adjusts the efect of the later, but also adjusts the orientation of the bike.....

Also, this technique is actually used in racing for faster lap times, how cool is that!


So after all that did we get a consensus on if the OP needs to move his seating position or not?
After all that was the question you guys were answering right.

I though it was decided the OP shouldnt have polished his tank? thats as far as I got, then I looked again and the thread was dath-ified :shit:

[Sentox]

I'm not sure what's worse... the fact I spawned this thread or the fact I read the last four pages with genuine interest :mellow:

[bogan]

I'm not sure what's worse... the fact I spawned this thread or the fact I read the last four pages with genuine interest :mellow:

So did you get a good answer to your original question then? And yeh, I find the bike 'physics' quite interesting too, both simple and extremely complex all at once.

[R-Soul]

yeh obviously all those things are present, but the interactions are more what im interested in, for example, turning the bars in mid air puts lean on the bike (countersteering principal), but then the same principal is applied to the rear wheel as it is rotated about the bikes lean axis, which then twists the whole bike in the direction of the steering, and varying the rear wheel speeds adjusts the efect of the later, but also adjusts the orientation of the bike.....

Also, this technique is actually used in racing for faster lap times, how cool is that!



I though it was decided the OP shouldnt have polished his tank? thats as far as I got, then I looked again and the thread was dath-ified :shit:

Yeah should not polish tank, but also open his hip to the inwards side in corners to have better overall balance on teh bike going through corners. When you are balanced then you are not hanging off or leaning on anything too much (besides the footpegs). and when you aren't leaning on anything too much, then your nuts are OK....

Seriously try it - you will never look back.

[bogan]

Yeah should not polish tank, but also open his hip to the inwards side in corners to have better overall balance on teh bike going through corners. When you are balanced then you are not hanging off or leaning on anything too much (besides the footpegs). and when you aren't leaning on anything too much, then your nuts are OK....

Seriously try it - you will never look back.

never polished a tank in my life, been thinking bout getting stompgrips for a while though as the bros's tank isn't such a good shape for gripping, been doing all that other stuff for years (you left off only use the inside arm for cornering too). And no I will never look back, as the bike corners where you look, and i don't wanna be cornering backwards, if you know what I mean!

[GOONR]

.....(you left off only use the inside arm for cornering too). ....

I was actually going to ask if people started their counter steering with a push or a pull of the bars. I guess it's a push then.

[Sentox]

I was actually going to ask if people started their counter steering with a push or a pull of the bars. I guess it's a push then.

I use both arms (push and pull), personally. I find it lends more control and requires less effort, and avoids one arm unconsciously stiffening up.


So did you get a good answer to your original question then? And yeh, I find the bike 'physics' quite interesting too, both simple and extremely complex all at once.

Yeah, mostly don't polish the tank :p Definitely getting some stomp grips though; figure it should make it a lot easier to grip the tank in general.

[Morcs]

If ya have to think about it and analyse it, you probably need to spend more time actually concerntrating on riding rather than wondering whether you want to dry hump your tank or not.

Noobs.

[bogan]

I use both arms (push and pull), personally. I find it lends more control and requires less effort, and avoids one arm unconsciously stiffening up.

The reasoning for using one arm only is the same actually! more control and less effort, as with two you can get uneven forces, both pushing slightly etc, i think i explained that poorly, but can find appropriate chapter later if you want, is shed time now.

[Sentox]

The reasoning for using one arm only is the same actually! more control and less effort, as with two you can get uneven forces, both pushing slightly etc, i think i explained that poorly, but can find appropriate chapter later if you want, is shed time now.

I guess it's a case of what works for you. Sport Riding Techniques firmly recommended push/pull in conjunction... I've tried it all ways on the road, and for me, using both arms helped me overcome a strong tendency for my unused arm to stiffen up and resist my countersteering efforts (which may not be a problem for another individual). I can see your point about uneven forces, but if you can train your fingers and ankle to modulate both brakes effectively in a hard stop, surely you can train your arms to work together for steering inputs?

[Morcs]

Reading techniques and consciously using them doesnt really work.

By actually riding using the basics like ensuring your line is decent, braking/button-off/getting on the gas timings, and having your eyes looking in the right place, things like bar inputs, seating position, weight distribution etc.. come naturally.

Stop overthinking everything!

[Sentox]

Reading techniques and consciously using them doesnt really work.

By actually riding using the basics like ensuring your line is decent, braking/button-off/getting on the gas timings, and having your eyes looking in the right place, things like bar inputs, seating position, weight distribution etc.. come naturally.

I don't buy it. A lot of riders naturally tend towards riding crossed up, for example.

On the flipside of the coin, some things, like counter-steering, do come naturally. But understanding it and being able to consciously employ it surely has to be better than some vague idea of "leaning the bike".

[p.dath]

Reading techniques and consciously using them doesnt really work.

Perhaps not for you.

Learning through your own experience with no outside influences is the best way to get bad techniques thoroughly engrained into your riding.

[bogan]

Reading techniques and consciously using them doesnt really work.

By actually riding using the basics like ensuring your line is decent, braking/button-off/getting on the gas timings, and having your eyes looking in the right place, things like bar inputs, seating position, weight distribution etc.. come naturally.

Stop overthinking everything!

dunno if you read the first post, but his seating position wasn't coming naturaly! also its far easier to start doing things the right way than try and break bad habits later.


I guess it's a case of what works for you. Sport Riding Techniques firmly recommended push/pull in conjunction... I've tried it all ways on the road, and for me, using both arms helped me overcome a strong tendency for my unused arm to stiffen up and resist my countersteering efforts (which may not be a problem for another individual). I can see your point about uneven forces, but if you can train your fingers and ankle to modulate both brakes effectively in a hard stop, surely you can train your arms to work together for steering inputs?

drop the unused arm right down, onto tank if possible, and it wont resist the other arms efforts.
Found the chapter and it basically says its a lot easier to just use one than try and co-ordinate both arms so they are not in conflict. The brakes are different as they are not working against each other, to much force on both will cause both to lock up, too much force on both bars will just use too much force, which then makes the steering very stiff with respect to road changes etc. After reading the chapter it seems odd that Sport Riding Techniques recommend both, but then if I read their bit, only one arm may seem odd.

[Gwinch]

Perhaps not for you.

Learning through your own experience with no outside influences is the best way to get bad techniques thoroughly engrained into your riding.


<img src="http://www.asian-central.com/stuffasianpeoplelike/wp-content/uploads/HLIC/www.bruce-lee.com//bruce-lee-picture-large.jpg"</img>

Don't think, feeeeeeel.

[Morcs]

Perhaps not for you.

Learning through your own experience with no outside influences is the best way to get bad techniques thoroughly engrained into your riding.

define 'BAD TECHNIQUES'

there is no clearcut good and bad, its a case of what works for the individual. it doesnt really matter when riding on the road at a legal pace. I could ride a long distance one handed, using no clutch, sat on my fuel tank - not the 'CORRECT' way, but its adequate for riding at a legal road pace. get my point?

stop looking at it like text and numbers on a page and open your mind a little.

[Sentox]

define 'BAD TECHNIQUES'

there is no clearcut good and bad, its a case of what works for the individual. it doesnt really matter when riding on the road at a legal pace. I could ride a long distance one handed, using no clutch, sat on my fuel tank - not the 'CORRECT' way, but its adequate for riding at a legal road pace. get my point?

stop looking at it like text and numbers on a page and open your mind a little.

Perhaps adequate is not what we're after. Just because "whatever works" is sufficient for the road is no reason not to improve technique if one so desires. And certainly there is good and bad. Rigid arms, weight on the bars is bad. Counter-leaning/riding crossed up is bad above crawling pace. Etc.

[p.dath]

stop looking at it like text and numbers on a page and open your mind a little.

Touche Morcs. May I suggest you need to open your mind? It seems apparent you are only prepared to accept one method of learning as valid.

I do agree with you that there is no clear cut "good and bad". But I pretty much disagree with you on everything else. You can ridely badly at a legal pace, but some person considering that "adequate" does not make it "good".

[Morcs]

Rigid arms, weight on the bars is bad. Counter-leaning/riding crossed up is bad above crawling pace. Etc.

Depends. for instance im sure im not the only one who could go round the outside of most people, leaning off the wrong side of the bike :p

Its about being in control. Meaning it doesnt matter what one is doing and how they are doing it, so long as they are in control.

[bogan]

Depends. for instance im sure im not the only one who could go round the outside of most people, leaning off the wrong side of the bike :p

Its about being in control. Meaning it doesnt matter what one is doing and how they are doing it, so long as they are in control.

you must have a shitload of ground clearance then :bleh:

Its a lot easier to be in control with good technique too

[CookMySock]

Its a lot easier to be in control with good technique tooIt's useful to be seated correctly if you have to respond in an emergency too.

Steve

[Katman]

It's useful to be seated correctly if you have to respond in an emergency too.

Steve

Your signature is the biggest (read, most desperate) attempt for acceptance I've ever seen.

[The Stranger]

It's useful to be seated correctly if you have to respond in an emergency too.

Steve

Like say a cats eye darting out in front of you on a corner perhaps?

[Sentox]

Like say a cats eye darting out in front of you on a corner perhaps?

Happened to me last night. Mind you, the cat's eye was attached to a cat.

[R-Soul]

Maybe it is just a case of having more time in the saddle, but when I started out, I always did one corner at a particular speed (Onewa onramp going to work in the mornings), and felt really nervous in it, and the bike felt clumsy and unsettled.

But nowadays (without that much more time the saddle), I am going around the same corner 20/kmhr faster, perfectly relaxed, the bike feels settled, I have lots of time time to check for other traffic joinng from the side. And I actually feel like I could take the bke around the same corner about 60km/hr faster if I wanted to really push it. I dont believe that that is just because I have spent time in the saddle. I personally believe its because I have been reaading voraciously about good technique, and applying it from day to day where I can. Its not ingrained yet, but its getting there.

Now I could have not done this, and learned my own adequate style (like riding one handed with my pants around my ankles), but I probably would not be feeling as secure about my cornering , and would probably not be enjoying my ride as much (although it depends what my other hand was doing...).

Besides, if anyone does not want to find out more and try to learn and enforce good habits, they would not be on these forums anyway....

[FROSTY]

To answer the OP's question there is a product you can stick to your tank sides I think its called stomp grip.
I had an interesting conversation yesterday on this very subject.The guy I was pitting with on basicly exactly the same bike as me has a non slippery seat and stomp grip on his tank. I prefer to be able to slide around all over the bike easilly. We we doing exactly the same lap times so whose right? I think that stuff is personall preferance and setup

[Morcs]

To answer the OP's question there is a product you can stick to your tank sides I think its called stomp grip.
I had an interesting conversation yesterday on this very subject.The guy I was pitting with on basicly exactly the same bike as me has a non slippery seat and stomp grip on his tank. I prefer to be able to slide around all over the bike easilly. We we doing exactly the same lap times so whose right? I think that stuff is personall preferance and setup

That stuff is gold. Every bike I had that got track use had the stuff. No-more bracing the arms hard out breaking hard into corners to prevent testicles getting mulched, and also helps when cranked right over, when there is only a tiny bit of arse left on the seat, the remaining leg doesnt slide about.

[Sentox]

Thought I'd post an update on this. Finally got some grip pads on the tank. Tried Stomp Grip initially, but they weren't too keen on sticking to the tank in the first place. I washed the thing four times, used 100% isopropyl alcohol afterwards, heated both the pads and the tank surface, but no joy. I've read much better things about the Techspec's adhesive, so I ordered a couple of general (uncut) sheets from Australia for about the same price as the Stomp Grips (so this is been a somewhat expensive venture all up... about $180). Used the same process, they went straight on with no fuss and have stuck fine. Unfortunately I was in too much of a hurry to bevel the edges, but I can live with it.

Luckily, then, that it has absolutely solved my seating dilemna. On the open road, things are much the same, since wind pressure is enough to hold my weight back. Cornering feels slightly more stable with the outside leg a little more fixed. Braking hard is the first significant difference: now gripping with my knees actually stops me sliding forward, which makes corner entry a lot more relaxed, and I can keep my arms close to weightless (do the chicken flap :laugh:).

Around town was always where the problem was most pronounced though; no wind to hold me back, and every little bump unseated me forward into the tank. Plus I'm rather long-legged, so I ended up with my knees jabbing into the corners of the fairing the whole time. Basically it was just constantly uncomfortable and my arms ended up holding my weight. The grips have completely fixed that problem, I'm happy to say. Riding around town is actually comfortable now, and the bike is a lot happier with my arms relaxed.

[Fatt Max]

My crotch is at least 500mm from the tank for two reasons;

1. My big fat gut is in the way, and
2. My bike is fucked enough as it is

As for the best riding position, I'll ask the missus and come back to you

[Sentox]

My big fat gut is in the way... As for the best riding position, I'll ask the missus and come back to you

Please, no photographic examples :no: