HEEEELP! Is my cage haunted? Mechanical opinions needed.

[Hans]

The wife's car grenaded itself in a most spectacular fashion yesterday evening.
The whole cooling system has failed in a way I have never seen before.
There are leaks just at just about every hose connection. Coolant is pissing out of the bottom of the water pump and out of a hole in the housing. The hole is circular, about 3mm in diameter and looks as if it was there before, but has no thread in it. The drain plug in a metal pipe at the very bottom of the system fell out when I touched it. The screw looks freshly corroded away, heaps of fine pitting and a bright metal surface.

What the fuck is going here? I serviced the cooling system about 8 months ago, put in demineralised water and inhibitor of a compatible type. It looks like the whole system received a huge amount of hydraulic shock. The radiator cap shows no signs of having released any overpressure, but appears functional. Any ideas how, why?

I am now facing 50hrs plus of labour to get the thing up and running. I am well and truly fucked.

BTW the car is an sw20 Toyota MR2.

[SMOKEU]

It's fucked mate.

[Hans]

I know that. I'm trying to figure out how it's fucked and how it came to be fucked, so it doesn't get fucked again when I fix the damage.

[LBD]

Sounds like you and a 1965 VW beetle would be a match made in heaven.....

On a more serious note....Check the coolant....was it anti freze or corrosion inhibitor....and when you say compatible type you need to read the lable to confirm it is suitable for engines with liquid cooled Aluminum components....

Lastly, have uyou any electrical problems or mods, that may be causing electrolysis

[Hans]

Sounds like you and a 1965 VW beetle would be a match made in heaven.....

On a more serious note....Check the coolant....was it anti freze or corrosion inhibitor....and when you say compatible type you need to read the lable to confirm it is suitable for engines with liquid cooled Aluminum components....

Lastly, have uyou any electrical problems or mods, that may be causing electrolysis

Yep, I read the label on the inhibitor, it was definitely compatible. I have no electrical problems that I know of. Funnily enough this electrolysis theory sounds kinda right. The remains of the coolant contained a fine suspension of rust that wasn't supposed to be there 8 months after a thorough flush, and stuff that I've taken out shows signs of either chemical or electro-chemical damage.
Care to elaborate on the electrolysis problem and possible causes?

[Hans]

Is it possible this has something to do with a reconditioned alternator being fitted (not by me) about two weeks ago?

[LBD]

Quite possible, although two weeks is quick...Is it an OEM alternator? EG,the old alternator may have been above ground (With its own negitive return to the battery) and the new one may rely on negitive ground, earthing back to the battery via the engine.

I cannot recall all the coolant symptoms that can be found with coolant problems and their cause...I will need to get back to my office and find the resorce material I collected la couple of years back year on the subject. (Coolant analysis goes hand in hand with oil analysis which is part of my work, except that we do not do coolant analysis so I have forgotten most of it)

Will look it up on Monday whan back at work.

PM me the coolant details.

[Hans]

It was the original alternator which had apparently been sent away, reconditioned and refitted. I don't know the precise type of inhibitor, but I'll look through my receipt to see if I can find out. Thanks for your help, any material on the electrolysis issue will be greatly appreciated.

[Urano]

don't think so, alternators has little to do with cooling sys.
more probably the pressure limiter on the circuit cap was stuck (corrosion, dirt, stuff like that...) and the circuit received a thermal shock: the pressure raised without being possible to expand and so simply "exploded"...
i think it's really gone.... :(

get a mech to take a look

[LBD]

don't think so, alternators has little to do with cooling sys.

Then there is the truck hauling PVC tube....the air passing through the tube generated so much static that it set up stray currents that caused electrolysis in the cooling system causing leaks in the cylinder liners every 6 weeks. After the third warranty claim against the engine manufacturer, Cat sent an factory engineer to investigate. Electrical problems can very easily generate coolant problems.

Yes burning the coolant is another possible scenario, but seldom will that cause corrosion or errosion inside a coolant system.

Will get some info on Monday...the exact brand is not crucial...the info I have is generic.

[Hans]

don't think so, alternators has little to do with cooling sys.
more probably the pressure limiter on the circuit cap was stuck (corrosion, dirt, stuff like that...) and the circuit received a thermal shock: the pressure raised without being possible to expand and so simply "exploded"...
i think it's really gone.... :(

get a mech to take a look

In this case the alternator might have something more to do with the cooling system than either of us would have thought. And I did mention in the op that the cap seems to be fine... The cooling system has always operated well and has been stable. It warms up and then temp doesn't vary more that about 5-10 degrees.

[jonbuoy]

I wouldn´t panic - sounds like the water pump has shat itself like water pumps do - its probably been slowly corroding over the last few years and has finally broken through. That hole without a thread is a tell tale for pump leaks. Replace pump and probably cam belt and tensioner while your at it, hoses might be hard with age and heat cycles. As long as the head gasket hasn´t blown you can do the whole lot yourself with a torque wrench, socket set and parts from repco.

[howdamnhard]

I wouldn´t panic - sounds like the water pump has shat itself like water pumps do - its probably been slowly corroding over the last few years and has finally broken through. That hole without a thread is a tell tale for pump leaks. Replace pump and probably cam belt and tensioner while your at it, hoses might be hard with age and heat cycles. As long as the head gasket hasn´t blown you can do the whole lot yourself with a torque wrench, socket set and parts from repco.

What he said. The waterpump definitely is stuffed if it is leaking out of the telltale hole.

[MaxB]

I wouldn´t panic - sounds like the water pump has shat itself like water pumps do - its probably been slowly corroding over the last few years and has finally broken through. That hole without a thread is a tell tale for pump leaks. Replace pump and probably cam belt and tensioner while your at it, hoses might be hard with age and heat cycles. As long as the head gasket hasn´t blown you can do the whole lot yourself with a torque wrench, socket set and parts from repco.

What he said.

Water Pump. The hole is there to deal with overpressure caused by the pump not er pumping.

When you get it back together replace the thermostat and rad cap. They're cheap enough. Plus any hoses that look munted. Do a thorough leak check especially as you said coolant is pissing out from other places.

You will only need a new cambelt/pulley tensioner set if you have to take them off to get at the water pump. Not sure about MR2s.

[scissorhands]

A pressure cap problem would have caused a blow out leak in the weakest place, only one, not the whole cooling circuit?

Check the rad caps rating as it may be too high, especially if the alternator fitting had a disagreement regarding the bill..... I wonder if you can sabotage some ones cooling system by adding stuff....

Pump will need changing....

[CookMySock]

As above, but first check you don't have a cylinder head gasket leak. That will pressurise the cooling system and rip it apart. Get a mechanic to test the radiator water for combustion gases.

Steve

[peasea]

The wife's car grenaded itself in a most spectacular fashion yesterday evening.
The whole cooling system has failed in a way I have never seen before.
There are leaks just at just about every hose connection. Coolant is pissing out of the bottom of the water pump and out of a hole in the housing. The hole is circular, about 3mm in diameter and looks as if it was there before, but has no thread in it. The drain plug in a metal pipe at the very bottom of the system fell out when I touched it. The screw looks freshly corroded away, heaps of fine pitting and a bright metal surface.

What the fuck is going here? I serviced the cooling system about 8 months ago, put in demineralised water and inhibitor of a compatible type. It looks like the whole system received a huge amount of hydraulic shock. The radiator cap shows no signs of having released any overpressure, but appears functional. Any ideas how, why?

I am now facing 50hrs plus of labour to get the thing up and running. I am well and truly fucked.

BTW the car is an sw20 Toyota MR2.

I did many years with Toyota and this is my take on it.

Your alternator died and was rebuilt, right? I would guess that the bearings in your water pump have done many thousands of k's and when the alternator was refitted the multi-v belt was over-tightened. (This is more common than you think.) The extra tesnion pulling the water pump bearing off-centre has finished off the bearing and/or seal in the water pump. Coolant has oozed from the tell-tale hole (the 3mm hole you describe, which is indeed put there by the factory) and the engine has overheated. The steam in the cooling system has over-pressurised the system and forced remaining coolant from any weak point.

It's possible it's puckerood thanks to the overheating but it depends entirely on how seriously it has overheated. Often it looks worse than it is, often with coolant hitting a hot exhaust, steaming away furiously and stinking the place up. Is there any sign of water/condensation in the oil? (On the underside of the oil filler cap or on the dipstick?) If so, I would be inclined to drain the oil and look for more water/coolant. If there is water in the oil you've probably got a mare, if not I'd be inclined to whack a water pump on it, pressure test the cooling system and drive on.

Something you can do to check the head gasket's integrity is to perform a cylinder leak-down test, you might want to talk to your spanner man if you don't know what that is and he should have the required nouse and equipment.

Your two biggest problems would be a blown head gasket or even a split head (the latter is rare on those motors) but at best a new water pump and the aforementioned cooling system pressure test should see you back on the road.

Any more questions about Toyotas don't hesitate to PM me.
Good luck.

[mdnzz]

I'll concur with Peasea, if you got one with the 3s-ge engine then I have seen a failure like this before first hand. Replaced faulty alternator on an engine that had done 170,000ks 3 weeks later major looking blow out of coolant system. Turns out to be what Peasea described, pump had failed, fail safes went and over pressurised. New water pump, refitted new hoses cap etc and tested. Did an oil change and checked no obvious signs, drove the car for another 60,000 before selling to some young fella few years back.

[Hans]

I'll concur with Peasea, if you got one with the 3s-ge engine then I have seen a failure like this before first hand. Replaced faulty alternator on an engine that had done 170,000ks 3 weeks later major looking blow out of coolant system. Turns out to be what Peasea described, pump had failed, fail safes went and over pressurised. New water pump, refitted new hoses cap etc and tested. Did an oil change and checked no obvious signs, drove the car for another 60,000 before selling to some young fella few years back.

Yep. 3sg-e. An it sounds exactly like what you're describing. That was the one time I let someone else do anything on the car. The one last time. Fuckwits. ANyway, I've got the factory workshop manual, so I've got some pointers. Cambelt was due anyway, and I guess I can just eat dirt for the next three weeks. Fuck.
Thanks again, I'll report on findings when I'm done in the evening.

[Mully]

Nope - all wrong.

It's clearly goblins.

Did you see anyone like this around your car??

[Hans]

Well, it turns out that the water pump is not belt driven. So that's not what caused it.

[peasea]

Well, it turns out that the water pump is not belt driven. So that's not what caused it.

The water pump on a 3S-GE isn't belt driven??

[steve_t]

Well, it turns out that the water pump is not belt driven. So that's not what caused it.

Are you sure? Or has a previous owner replaced the OEM unit with an electric one?

Edit: Beaten to the punch by peasea

[Hans]

The water pump on a 3S-GE isn't belt driven??

Nope. It must run of the engine. I've removed 2 accessory belts. One drives the alternator and one drives the aircon compressor. And that's it.

[Hans]

Are you sure? Or has a previous owner replaced the OEM unit with an electric one?

Edit: Beaten to the punch by peasea

Positive. 10 char.

[Hans]

Ok, not so positive. It isn't driven directlly off the engine. It's Driven by the timing belt. That's what the workshop manual says. And that's why the timing belt has to come off to remove the water pump. Fuck.

[Mully]

Ok, not so positive. It isn't driven directlly off the engine. It's Driven by the timing belt. That's what the workshop manual says. And that's why the timing belt has to come off to remove the water pump. Fuck.

I thought most were driven from the timing belt. It's why you generally change cambelt, tensioners and water pump all at once.

When's your cambelt due? If you've got to take it off, you might as well replace it with a new one.

[Hans]

I thought most were driven from the timing belt. It's why you generally change cambelt, tensioners and water pump all at once.

When's your cambelt due? If you've got to take it off, you might as well replace it with a new one.

Yep, due soon. I will change it while I'm in there. If I ever manage to get to it, that is. The Tbelt cover is obscured by a mounting bracket and I can't for the life of me get to the three bolts that hold it. Right now, I'm wondering wtf I've got myself into.

[peasea]

Yep, due soon. I will change it while I'm in there. If I ever manage to get to it, that is. The Tbelt cover is obscured by a mounting bracket and I can't for the life of me get to the three bolts that hold it. Right now, I'm wondering wtf I've got myself into.

If you're talking about the upper engine mount then don't forget to put a jack (with a block of wood on it) under the sump. Usually there are nuts or bolts that are only accessable from underneath with a long extension. From memory there might be one large bolt that runs through the mount but the actual mount needs to be removed also. Take the top cam belt cover off (some bolts are a bit tight to access, quarter-drive socket set is handy here) and you'll probably see what I'm on about.

[steve_t]

http://mr2.com/ARTICLE/TimingBeltSW20.html

Oops... guess the turbo/intercooler parts aren't for you ;)

http://www.celicagt.nl/Docs/st202_rm396e.pdf

[CookMySock]

Right now, I'm wondering wtf I've got myself into.It's time to take a break and ask yourself how far down this rabbit hole you want to go. If you leave it for a couple of days and go back to it you will have a new calmer picture of things, or perhaps get a mobile mechanic to finish off the complicated bit for you.

If you do decide to continue, I would be extremely careful about marking the old timing belt and the pulleys, just in case one of the cams decided to leap off in one direction, or else you will be there for days, or worse of you don't realise and manage to get it started. :shit:

Steve

[FJRider]

Any frosts up your way lately ... ?????

[Hans]

Any frosts up your way lately ... ?????

Nope. 10 char.

[Hans]

It's time to take a break and ask yourself how far down this rabbit hole you want to go. If you leave it for a couple of days and go back to it you will have a new calmer picture of things, or perhaps get a mobile mechanic to finish off the complicated bit for you.

If you do decide to continue, I would be extremely careful about marking the old timing belt and the pulleys, just in case one of the cams decided to leap off in one direction, or else you will be there for days, or worse of you don't realise and manage to get it started. :shit:

Steve

Good point. Certainly feeling the pressure of needing to get the fucking thing up and running as this is our only cage and the other half is fairly dependent on it. The whole problem is not so much the mechanical issues. I'm fairly decent at the mechanical stuff. The big problem is ACCESS. There's fuck all space around the engine and just undoing three bolts on an engine mount can take an hour and a half...

[CookMySock]

That's where an air ratchet spanner is good, or ratchet ring spanners - it might be tool-buying time - Repco is open all weekend!

You have to get that pressure off yourself or it will go pear-shaped for sure. Take regular breaks at least. Good luck and be careful.

Steve

[Hans]

That's where an air ratchet spanner is good, or ratchet ring spanners - it might be tool-buying time - Repco is open all weekend!

You have to get that pressure off yourself or it will go pear-shaped for sure. Take regular breaks at least. Good luck and be careful.

Steve

Yeah, defo not tool buying time. If I weren't broke, the car would be at Toyota and I wouldn't have to deal with any of this.

[peasea]

Good point. Certainly feeling the pressure of needing to get the fucking thing up and running as this is our only cage and the other half is fairly dependent on it. The whole problem is not so much the mechanical issues. I'm fairly decent at the mechanical stuff. The big problem is ACCESS. There's fuck all space around the engine and just undoing three bolts on an engine mount can take an hour and a half...

While this won't help; that's why I got out of the motor trade. The way cars are assembled is for ease of assembly, not servicing. Try telling a customer that chagning plugs on their V6 east-west shitbox will take four hours and platinum-tipped plugs are around 40 bucks a shot.

And people wonder why I buy simple motor vehicles.

[Hans]

Yup, the primary reason for getting this POS in the first place was handling and brakes -ie active safety, because it's the missus' car. I coudln't give a shit what car I drive, I drive a truck so I can deal with any handling a car can throw at me. If I ever buy anything else, it will most likely be something, where I can stand next to the engine in the engine bay.

[scissorhands]

The electric car has no real servicing, and your hands get no oil or muck on them, no oil on the road or in the atmosphere...

Its a no brainer really, especially with maintenance and repairs

[Hans]

The electric car has no real servicing, and your hands get no oil or muck on them, no oil on the road or in the atmosphere...

Its a no brainer really, especially with maintenance and repairs

Gee thanks. That is just the sort of advice I asked for, and definitely the sort of advice I really need. Now go and agitate somewhere else.

[mdnzz]

Well, it turns out that the water pump is not belt driven. So that's not what caused it.

You're right, but it was still after the alternator was done that this happened, maybe it a fault in their water pump and as others have put with the new surge of electricity. Or maybe its just the japs fucking with ya for Hiroshima

[kevfromcoro]

watching in interest.. had one of those.. got the engine in the boot
cant see the alternater causing it overheat.
they are a bit hard to work on.............
dunno... did you do a test on raidiator...
oil in the water?
water in the oil?
blown head gasket will do that......

[mdnzz]

I did think it was run of the timing/cam but hey maybe wrong too:)

[scissorhands]

Usually get alternators for about $30 at pick a part

[vindy500]

I was under the impression you had to remove the engine to get into the water pump in the mr2s

[MaxB]

I was under the impression you had to remove the engine to get into the water pump in the mr2s

FWIW write ups on the net look like they do it with the motor in place but it is pretty tight. The key to it seems to be that you have to be prepared to come at each bolt from above or below eg each bolt only has one ideal access point. Be prepared for a lot of clambering around.

[davereid]

The electric car has no real servicing, and your hands get no oil or muck on them, no oil on the road or in the atmosphere...Its a no brainer really, especially with maintenance and repairs

You are certainly on-track with your comments about maintenance and repairs.

But I'm not so sure about the no oil in the atmosphere thing. Theres two parts to emissions, firstly those that occur during the manufacturing and rubbish disposal process. Then those that occur during vehicle usage. Electric cars score badly on both.

IMHO..
The manufacturing of its batteries pumped more CO2 into the air than my Euro Diesel will produce in the next 15 years.
The manufacturing of the rest of the car cost the same emissions wise as a similar fossil fuel powered car
Its batteries will be stuffed in 7 years and you will need a new set, with an entire new set of manufacturing based emissions. While my diesel still runs on.
Their is a massive environmental cost reprocessing and disposing of the old set of batteries. Not to mention the cost, which would be much higher than my car has cost over the same period.

As to emissions from running the vehicle ?
Its heavier than an equivalent fossil fuel powered car. Its engine is very efficient by comparison, but the production of electricity at the coal fired power station that feeds it, is only about the same as my car. By the time transmission line losses are factored in, its fuel to motion conversion is lower than my car.


Damn.. electric cars should be banned, they are so bad for the environment !

[Mully]

Damn.. electric cars should be banned, they are so bad for the environment !

Sorry, OT, but did you see the South Park episode where one of the dads gets a Prius and ends up generating his own cloud on "smug".

Then he berates everyone else in town until they get hybrids too - the town ends up with an enormous cloud of "smug"

Good stuff.

[Hans]

Well, it's officially fucked. Will be on TM soon as a parts car. It is repairable with an outlay of about 600ish, but i just don't have the time or the nerves.