Motorcycle fatalities down in Australia

[p.dath]

I got a query from the AA today who were examining Australian accident statistics today. They have noted that Australia has had a 13.2% reduction in motorcycle fatalities in the last 2 years, and wondered if I might have any ideas why.

I said I don't know why that would be, but I would ask some others and see what comes up.


So anyone know of any changes to do with motorcycles that happened about two years ago in Australia that may have lead to this reduction in fatalities?

[Marmoot]

Some of the motorcycle riders went to Afghanistan and Iraq?

[BMWST?]

13.2 percent reduction in bikes on the road?

[Bald Eagle]

They stopped counting farm bikes as motorcycle accidents ?

[MSTRS]

According to the show on One last night, many motorcycle gang members don't even ride bikes these days

[Coldrider]

Fender Eliminators are eliminated.

[Big Dave]

http://kiwiridermagazine.blogspot.com/2010/04/mick-mcdoohan-promotes-rider-safety.html

[onearmedbandit]

I got a query from the AA today who were examining Australian accident statistics today. They have noted that Australia has had a 13.2% reduction in motorcycle fatalities in the last 2 years, and wondered if I might have any ideas why.

I said I don't know why that would be, but I would ask some others and see what comes up.


So anyone know of any changes to do with motorcycles that happened about two years ago in Australia that may have lead to this reduction in fatalities?

The AA contacted you and wanted your opinion on motorcycling safety in Australia?? Did I miss something?

[Katman]

The AA contacted you and wanted your opinion on motorcycling safety in Australia?? Did I miss something?

They are avid fans of Wikis.

[blackdog]

http://kiwiridermagazine.blogspot.com/2010/04/mick-mcdoohan-promotes-rider-safety.html

clever. unfortunately it's just the sort of message the target demographic won't pay the slightest bit of attention to......

[onearmedbandit]

They are avid fans of Wikis.

Ah, well then they are talking to an expert.

[avgas]

OMG Stop Press
The financial downturn combined with earth plate movements is the cause.
This will be sorted when the DOW has a substation increase in trade, and Rock songs start to populate top 10 albums sold.
Slash's new album is the first step to a complete solution.

Joining the dots is awesome.

[yachtie10]

I got a query from the AA today who were examining Australian accident statistics today. They have noted that Australia has had a 13.2% reduction in motorcycle fatalities in the last 2 years, and wondered if I might have any ideas why.

I said I don't know why that would be, but I would ask some others and see what comes up.


So anyone know of any changes to do with motorcycles that happened about two years ago in Australia that may have lead to this reduction in fatalities?

Bound to be a lot of reasons
people will claim what suits there agenda

personally I dont see it being statistically significant enough to make a song and dance about (im sure some will disagree)

[p.dath]

personally I dont see it being statistically significant enough to make a song and dance about (im sure some will disagree)

Looking at some of the graphs, it does appear to have been trending down for the last 5 years.

[Coldrider]

The law is more rigidly enforced over the ditch, and the tolerances are negligible.

[Ixion]

You'd need to know the fleet statistics.

In NZ, around the late 1990s early 2000s , motorcycle numbers in NZ went in to massive slide. The fleet halved almost overnight.

That had two effects. First, fewer bikes on the road, just arithmetic means fewer crashes. Secondly, those are still there are probably hardcore experienced riders. Less likely to come to grief

I don't think Oz had this downturn.

Then in NZ , it reversed ,and we got (and still have) a really steep increase in the fleet (still a LONG way to go to catch up to the 1980s though) . So, the scenario reverses. More bikes on the road, and a LOT of inexperienced (or rusty) riders. I don't know that OZ had that so much either. It's not just the effect on bikers themeselves that you have to think about either. If bikes are pretty rare on the road, drivers get out of the habit of expecting to see them, or look for them.

So you can make the figures look like whatever you want just by picking your reference years, if you ignore fleet size

[Scuba_Steve]

most of the bad riders are already dead?. Less harleys being sold?. just a couple of guesses

[Edbear]

http://kiwiridermagazine.blogspot.com/2010/04/mick-mcdoohan-promotes-rider-safety.html

Should be shown here. :yes:


Bound to be a lot of reasons
people will claim what suits there agenda

personally I dont see it being statistically significant enough to make a song and dance about (im sure some will disagree)


You'd need to know the fleet statistics.

In NZ, around the late 1990s early 2000s , motorcycle numbers in NZ went in to massive slide. The fleet halved almost overnight.

That had two effects. First, fewer bikes on the road, just arithmetic means fewer crashes. Secondly, those are still there are probably hardcore experienced riders. Less likely to come to grief

I don't think Oz had this downturn.

Then in NZ , it reversed ,and we got (and still have) a really steep increase in the fleet (still a LONG way to go to catch up to the 1980s though) . So, the scenario reverses. More bikes on the road, and a LOT of inexperienced (or rusty) riders. I don't know that OZ had that so much either. It's not just the effect on bikers themeselves that you have to think about either. If bikes are pretty rare on the road, drivers get out of the habit of expecting to see them, or look for them.

So you can make the figures look like whatever you want just by picking your reference years, if you ignore fleet size

As with most statistics, the answer is, "It depends." If they can isolate the applicable factors of km per rider deaths it may have more meaning. An overall downward trend over 5 - 10 years related to the fleet numbers, as Ixion says, would be something to investigate.

One thing is for sure, there are far too many senseless deaths in NZ. A witness to that accident where the cop turned in front of the bike, reckoned the biker was speeding, to the point he thought when he heard the bike coming, "That guy's really moving!" So how much is the cop at fault for making a turn close to the brow of a hill, and how much where the biker is going way too fast over a blind brow on a country road? Food for thought...? A mate was killed when he came around a bend and ran into the back of a tractor. Otheres have come to grief hitting stock, so the road rule of being able to stop in half the visible distance was obviously not being followed? Apparently the rider didn't even have time to hit the brakes.

[Ixion]

.. One thing is for sure, there are far too many senseless deaths in NZ. A witness to that accident where the cop turned in front of the bike, reckoned the biker was speeding, to the point he thought when he heard the bike coming, "That guy's really moving!" So how much is the cop at fault for making a turn close to the brow of a hill, and how much where the biker is going way too fast over a blind brow on a country road? Food for thought...

Hang about. That doesn't mean anything. Even assuming the old codger has ears so finely tuned that he can tell a bikes speed from it's sound (which i doubt), that would only show the speed on the stretch of road PRECEDING the hilltop. The far side of that hill, is a longish gently rising straightish stretch. A bike could well wind it up to a good speed along there, then slow down for the hill crest. Unless old codger reckons he can hear the sound of brakes as well !

[Edbear]

Hang about. That doesn't mean anything. Even assuming the old codger has ears so finely tuned that he can tell a bikes speed from it's sound (which i doubt), that would only show the speed on the stretch of road PRECEDING the hilltop. The far side of that hill, is a longish gently rising straightish stretch. A bike could well wind it up to a good speed along there, then slow down for the hill crest. Unless old codger reckons he can hear the sound of brakes as well !

Granted, although you would be able to hear whether a bike was slowing down. I haven't seen exactly where it happened and not seen or heard all the details, either, but the fact that it did happen, along with the number of times on country roads that I've been glad I wasn't going any faster should make us very interested in getting the full story to this.

[Ixion]

I ride that road every so often. By and large I'd normaly be pacing in the 120s along the clear stretches, back off for the hill tops (tis a bit annoying those hill crests). I doubt that anyone would pick up the difference in speed , it's just a roll off of the throttle. Most people , when they say they hear a bike going fast, what they really hear is the bike accelerating. Depending on the bike, it can be very misleading. A two stroke f'instance always sounds s if it's going faster than it is.

[miloking]

The AA contacted you and wanted your opinion on motorcycling safety in Australia?? Did I miss something?

Yeah they called me to.... didnt you get your phone call yet?

[Edbear]

I ride that road every so often. By and large I'd normaly be pacing in the 120s along the clear stretches, back off for the hill tops (tis a bit annoying those hill crests). I doubt that anyone would pick up the difference in speed , it's just a roll off of the throttle. Most people , when they say they hear a bike going fast, what they really hear is the bike accelerating. Depending on the bike, it can be very misleading. A two stroke f'instance always sounds s if it's going faster than it is.

Two strokes always go faster...

It was in the Waikato? Which road?

[miloking]

http://kiwiridermagazine.blogspot.com/2010/04/mick-mcdoohan-promotes-rider-safety.html


clever. unfortunately it's just the sort of message the target demographic won't pay the slightest bit of attention to......

I worked on me! I will never go for track day on that race track!!!! Bus stop placed like that is just irresponsible....

[Ixion]

Two strokes always go faster...

It was in the Waikato? Which road?

Wainranga or some such. begins with a W anyway, y can't miss it. Go down to old SH2, dwiddle along till you get to the coal bit, that leads into Falls Rd which is a very nice road, down there , turn left at the bottom , (or maybe right - I always get those two confused), and head toward TeKawhatta. You go over the bit of road in question, just after the next on the right (or left). Then you can wiggle around Tekawhatta (or have a nice cup of coffee at the nice cup of coffee place there), and carry on into Huntly , and ride past Motus place and annoy him . Then wobble through the back bits of Huntly and get onto SH22 and come back through Twocows.

[p.dath]

Time for a "I told you so" from everyone. Just after releasing their report on saying motorcycle deaths were trending down, the latest intra-year report has come out. The "AA" sent me a copy.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/surge-in-motorcycle-deaths-hits-move-to-slash-toll-20100422-tfvi.html


RISING motorcycle deaths will be a big barrier to reaching ambitious road toll targets, according to Victoria's top traffic officer, as rider fatalities soar to record levels this year.

The latest figures reveal that a quarter of the 99 deaths on Victorian roads this year have been motorcyclists, the equal highest since 1990 and the highest proportion of overall deaths in at least 20 years.

The statistics have shocked police and hospitals, with The Alfred urging riders and car drivers to be more aware on the roads.

Deputy Commissioner Ken Lay said the soaring toll was one of the biggest threats to achieving the state government target of 237 deaths a year by 2017.

Mr Lay said road congestion, fuel prices and environmental concerns meant the number of registered motorcycles in Victoria had reached record levels, while the run of warm days this year meant motorcyclists had flocked to the roads.

Another factor, he said, was that older people with disposable income but without the right skills were increasingly buying motorcycles. He warned that the motorcycle boom would only gather pace in coming years.

''We know there are more motorcyclists on the road, so we're going to see them in more crashes,'' he said. ''We also know that by making a very small mistake a motorcyclist can be killed because they have no protection.

''If we can't get on top of the motorcycle stuff, this may well be what threatens our 2017 target.''

Mr Lay said motorcycle deaths - which stand at 24 this year compared with 13 this time last year - had soared recently, partly because many roads that motorcyclists liked to use, such as in the Yarra Ranges, were shut because of the bushfires.

VicRoads figures show the number of motorcycles and scooters registered has grown 60,000 in the past seven years to 165,100. That number has grown 10,000 in the past nine months alone.

The warning comes as Victoria launches Operation Yellow Flag/Black Flag, a campaign targeting motorcycle safety in the Yarra Ranges this weekend.

Motorcycle Riders Association president Kerry Walton said more awareness campaigns were needed and that all riders needed advanced training.

Speaking at The Alfred hospital yesterday, Dr Fred Mori said motorcyclist injuries were rising and would become worse in the future. He said riders risked horrific injuries if they or car drivers did not take care.

''My own message is for everyone to remember that we have to be responsible for each other,'' he said.

Colin Roles knows about the importance of taking care on a motorcycle but also realises that even the most well-prepared rider can risk serious injury.

In January, while driving through Henrietta in rural Tasmania, he hit a damp spot on the road at 100 km/h and was hit by an oncoming car.

Despite wearing full protective gear, he sustained a crushed spinal cord, broken leg and a fractured hip and elbow, and may never walk again.

Mr Roles, 51, said that if this could happen to an experienced rider like him, imagine what could happen to those who were not prepared or concentrating. ''Sometimes a lot of the idiots come unstuck,'' he said. ''But sometimes the good guys come unstuck too.''

[SPman]

I read somewhere that when NSW introduced much harder requirements for motorcycle licenses, some years ago, including periods of accredited training and stiffer tests (many said, to discourage people riding m/cycles), the accident and death rate among new riders showed a marked decline.

[Ixion]

Looks like their fleet demogrpahics are following a few years behind NZ




In January, while driving through Henrietta in rural Tasmania, he hit a damp spot on the road at 100 km/h and was hit by an oncoming car.

WTF ? Hit a damp patch ???

[Motu]

Henrietta had a damp spot? Slippery too.Stay away from Henrietta,specially if you ride a V twin.

[p.dath]

Looks like their fleet demogrpahics are following a few years behind NZ



WTF ? Hit a damp patch ???

Perhaps he is the master of understatement, and it was a tidal river flowing across the road, and he was hydroplaning? :lol:

[peasea]

most of the bad riders are already dead?. Less harleys being sold?. just a couple of guesses

Haha, cunny funt, if anything it'll be the sportsbike riders sitting about in plaster for months on end. While actual numbers are down the HD market has weathered the fiscal storm rather well Down Under. Compare profit figures with some jap counterparts.

[rastuscat]

Interesting thought follows..............

Some have suggested that the problem of bike crashes could be made better by making it harder to get a motorcycle licence i.e. making people do more to qualify to ride, e.g. training , rider education etc.

The flip side of that is that making it harder to get licence means there will be more people who just can't be bothered, and who just go and buy a bike and ride it with no education at all.

I know a lot of middle aged blokes who wanted to get their licence, but didn't want to wait the 2 years before they could ride the $35K Harley in their garage. So they just went out and rode without worrying about the licence.

I know that has all sorts of implications (insurance etc) but it happens already, so making a licence harder to get will make the problem worse.

Just a note so people realize the implications of making it harder to get a licence.

[Blackflagged]

Making it harder to get a license will help - by delaying people getting on the Road. And make more people not bother to get a bike due to the hassles .Doesn`t stop cars u turning or not looking were there going.

[p.dath]

Interesting thought follows..............

Some have suggested that the problem of bike crashes could be made better by making it harder to get a motorcycle licence i.e. making people do more to qualify to ride, e.g. training , rider education etc.

You are of course right, but I'm still in favour of increased road user education (not just motorbikes).

It's a pretty simple concept - you need to train to become better. It's like everything in life.

So to suggest we shouldn't bother with increased training because a small minority wont do it is not a sufficiently good reason not to try at all. The mear fact that this minority doesn't believe training will help them tells me we have a fundamental education issue right there ...

The two biggest motorcycle accidents are:
1. Car pulling out in front of motorcycle claiming they didn't see motorcycle
2. Motorcycle having accident on a corner (usually a loss of control)
The first point is best addressed with education for all road users. The second is probably best addresses by increased skills training for motorcyclists.

[rastuscat]

The two biggest motorcycle accidents are:
1. Car pulling out in front of motorcycle claiming they didn't see motorcycle
2. Motorcycle having accident on a corner (usually a loss of control)
The first point is best addressed with education for all road users. The second is probably best addresses by increased skills training for motorcyclists.

I actually think more training is a good idea. Trouble is, as long as it is voluntary, the people who actually need it (i.e. those who think they know it all but don't), will not actually go and do it. It's part of the ego issue, thinking that we are all shit hot and not needing to learn. That's why the Sunday ride to Akaroa and back has become the Akaroa GP, and the deaths are starting to become evident.

Here's some thoughts on your points as above.
1. If we all wait for someone else to be better educated, we'll just keep having crashes. How about we try to be more visible, and ride more defensively? That gives us control of our destiny, not just admitting that's it's a problem with someone else, and waiting for someone else to solve it. ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR OWN SAFETY COULD CHANGE THE CRASH RATE IN SECONDS, BUT WAITING FOR EVERYONE ELSE TO IMPROVE IS GOING TO TAKE A VERY, VERY LONG TIME. The dude in the mirror can change his destiny in a thought. People who pull out in front of motorcycles do so because they didn't expect to see one, and thus didn't see it. They don't just claim to have not seen the bike, that would effectively mean they did it deliberately. I put most SMIDSYs (Sorry Mate I Didn't See You) down to bad driving, not homicidal intent.
2. Loss of control is something you can avoid through experience. Cornering techniques are taught at most voluntary motorcycle courses already, but let's face it, most of us are learning from experience, not doing courses. Riding crap lines at the wrong speed in the wrong gear isn't too hard to avoid, and we'd all be better if we accept that we don't know it all already.

I think we're both right, we just look at the issues from a different angle.

[rastuscat]

Making it harder to get a license will help - by delaying people getting on the Road.

Hey, make it harder to get a licence by all means, but make it a very serious offence to operate any class of vehicle without the required licence. Like, lose your bike for as long as it takes you to get an appropriate licence. That way, if you ride a bike bigger than a 250 you lose it for as long as it takes you to get a licence.

[Ixion]

I think (without any evidence whatsoever) that the issue of the rider with NO class 6 is a bigger one than the rider on a 6L exceeding 250cc.

Oddly, ride with NO licence at all and it is quite a serious offence. But get ANY licence (even just a 1L) , and ride off on your 1200 Harley and it is a minor matter.

I suppose it is all part of the current licence regime where all thta matter is if you know the road code and can pass the scratchy test

[Blackflagged]

Making it impossible to get a license! now that will have a major impact, on reducing motorcycle accidents.
Maybe have a 100 step method.Step one You can ride a Moped between 2 and 4pm only,then after 10yrs, at step 30, you can ride a Big bike around the block and back.Make sure theres a lot of form filling at every step.

Bureaucracy is the combined organizational structure, procedures, protocols, and set of regulations in place to manage activity. As opposed to adhocracy, it is often represented by standardized procedure (rule-following) that guides the execution of most or all processes within the body; formal division of powers; hierarchy; and relationships, intended to anticipate needs and improve efficiency.

[FastBikeGear]

Just ended up on this incredible thread when searching for something else. The incredible thing about this thread is that a major transport body would ask P.dath what he thought was the cause of the reduced accidents!? Don't get me wrong I have know p.dath and he is smarter than 99 out of 100 people. But he is not a traffic safety researcher. It just shows how clueless the AA is.

It begs the question just who is doing genuine motorcycle safety research in N.Z? It seems incredible that neither the ACC or the Ministry of Transport has a traffic safety research department or employ a single person to do this work. As far as I know no one is paid to do traffic safety research in New Zealand, instead we have people trying to read the answers they want from extremely poor quality accident statistics. (Interpretations vary on who is reading the tea leaves for what agenda) Maybe some of the ACC motorcycle levies could be put to use doing some genuine motorcycle safety research in NZ so that we have more than speculation to start addressing the issue.

[Berries]

I doubt it. I am in the industry and offered my services to the ACC to help fill out some of the massive amounts of missing data that they based their engine size differential on, never heard back. Hardly surprising then that I have heard nothing from them to tell me what my $30 is being spent on either. Gee, thanks, that's one way of getting my support. Robbing bastards.

This is as good as it gets I'm afraid -


NZTA
Comment: A ‘High-risk motorcycle guide’ is currently being developed. Once this guide is completed, further information can be referenced.Not the greatest terminology. I hope my bike isn't high risk.............

[Blackbird]

**Shakes head in disbelief at ACC**

You'd think that ACC would approach Professor Charley Lamb, Head of Business Management, Law and Marketing at Lincoln University. Charley is also Director of the Australasian Institute of Motorcycle Studies (AIMS) Project and recognised as a world authority.

There again, when Charley Lamb published his research findings, it discredited the validity of ACC statistics so hell might freeze over before they go to him.

If anyone missed Charley's data, there's a summary here: http://geoffjames.blogspot.com/2010/05/motorcycle-accidents-half-truths-and.html.

As a final comment, as motorcyclists, we often don't help our own cause. I'm thinking in particular about the need for re-skilling or upskilling in terms of good roadcraft as we all pick up bad habits or worse; never acquire good ones. I've recently put my mouth where my money is by putting myself through the Institute of Advanced Motoring motorcycle programme. Initially damaging in terms of ego, but unbelievably good in terms of outcome.

[scumdog]

The law is more rigidly enforced over the ditch, and the tolerances are negligible.

No! - surely not!

According to KB intelligencia it is NZ that is most excessively enforced, with zilch tolerance and has THE most pedantic laws that infrine EVERYBODYS rights...<_<


And awsome thread-derdge!

[bogan]

According to KB intelligencia it is NZ that is most excessively enforced, with zilch tolerance and has THE most pedantic laws that infrine EVERYBODYS rights...<_<

Hmmm, gross exaggerations, incomplete data, subgroups not taken into account; you don't happen to work for the government do you scummy? :shifty:

[FJRider]

Hmmm, gross exaggerations, incomplete data, subgroups not taken into account; you don't happen to work for the government do you scummy? :shifty:

He is refering to KB ...

The epitome of fact ... fair comment ... un-biased opinions ...

AND ...

A never ending source of useful information ...

[davereid]

I actually think more training is a good idea. Trouble is, as long as it is voluntary, the people who actually need it (i.e. those who think they know it all but don't), will not actually go and do it. It's part of the ego issue, thinking that we are all shit hot and not needing to learn. That's why the Sunday ride to Akaroa and back has become the Akaroa GP, and the deaths are starting to become evident.

Training is a valuable way of "fast tracking" experience.

The catch is, if we make the training compulsory before getting a licence, many just wont bother.

We will end up with less motorcyclists which marginalizes us even more.

And more of those riding simply will ride without the correct class of licence.

Realistically, the basic handing skills course, is a good start.

But IMHO the best way to go is to have a look at what people are actually doing, and provide a way to make it legal and safe.

Sadly, the proposed "Learner Approved Motorcycle" program is a good start but it fails on many levels.

Rastuscat is completely correct in his observation that many "new" riders are hopping on Harleys and other large cruisers that will not be LAMS approved.

So LAMS wont help these guys who feature highly in our crash stats. They want a large cruiser, they have been driving for years and are not concerned about the chance of being caught with the wrong class of licence. Or, they simply have a spare or two in another name.

I would argue that...

We should accept that people will ride large cruisers, so we should accommodate them with training, and accelerated programs to help make them safer.

My thoughts would be :

~ You can't treat someone who has 20 years car driving experience the same as a learner driver. And they will resist being treated that way.

~ Acknowledge that the real risk for these people is not lack of road craft. Its lack of motorcycle craft, so provide accelerated training.

~ These guys crash because of basic motorcycling skill problems - running wide, too much back brake, all of which can be trained out.

~ Use technology. ABS brakes for example could allow a rider a larger machine.

~ Use the motorcycle levy to make the training free. we would get more bikers, and less crashes.

Just my two-bobs worth.

I have formed my view, as I am in the effected (afflicted ?) age group.

I have been riding my entire life, but from time to time ride with newer riders, many of whom assume that I, like them are new to biking, especially if I am on my Harley.

They offer me frequent, and usually woeful advice on braking, counter-steering, and tyre selection.

I see what is happening, and I despair, as we react with more hurdles, more penalties, and harsher rules, when generally, if we provided the mechanisms, we could train many of these accidents out of experienced drivers, who simply lack motorcycle skills.

[scumdog]

Rastuscat is completely correct in his observation that many "new" riders are hopping on Harleys and other large cruisers that will not be LAMS approved.

So LAMS wont help these guys who feature highly in our crash stats.



I'm sorry - I was unaware that the new, unlicenced Harley riders 'featured high on our crash stats'

My personal experience differs, maybe it's a geographical thing.

Have you any figures to back up the claim??

[FJRider]

... maybe it's a geographical thing.

it is ... he's in la la land ...

[scracha]

Just ended up on this incredible thread when searching for something else. The incredible thing about this thread is that a major transport body would ask P.dath what he thought was the cause of the reduced accidents!? Don't get me wrong I have know p.dath and he is smarter than 99 out of 100 people. But he is not a traffic safety researcher. It just shows how clueless the AA is.


That being said, now that the fact that the AA has done this is out in the open, it practically begs BRONZ / MAG / etc to write an open letter(s) to the AA asking them why the hell they asked P.Dath instead of the aforementioned organisations.

[FastBikeGear]

Training is a valuable way of "fast tracking" experience.

The catch is, if we make the training compulsory before getting a licence, many just wont bother.

We will end up with less motorcyclists which marginalizes us even more.

And more of those riding simply will ride without the correct class of licence.

Realistically, the basic handing skills course, is a good start.

But IMHO the best way to go is to have a look at what people are actually doing, and provide a way to make it legal and safe.

Sadly, the proposed "Learner Approved Motorcycle" program is a good start but it fails on many levels.

Rastuscat is completely correct in his observation that many "new" riders are hopping on Harleys and other large cruisers that will not be LAMS approved.

So LAMS wont help these guys who feature highly in our crash stats. They want a large cruiser, they have been driving for years and are not concerned about the chance of being caught with the wrong class of licence. Or, they simply have a spare or two in another name.

I would argue that...

We should accept that people will ride large cruisers, so we should accommodate them with training, and accelerated programs to help make them safer.

My thoughts would be :

~ You can't treat someone who has 20 years car driving experience the same as a learner driver. And they will resist being treated that way.

~ Acknowledge that the real risk for these people is not lack of road craft. Its lack of motorcycle craft, so provide accelerated training.

~ These guys crash because of basic motorcycling skill problems - running wide, too much back brake, all of which can be trained out.

~ Use technology. ABS brakes for example could allow a rider a larger machine.

~ Use the motorcycle levy to make the training free. we would get more bikers, and less crashes.

Just my two-bobs worth.

I have formed my view, as I am in the effected (afflicted ?) age group.

I have been riding my entire life, but from time to time ride with newer riders, many of whom assume that I, like them are new to biking, especially if I am on my Harley.

They offer me frequent, and usually woeful advice on braking, counter-steering, and tyre selection.

I see what is happening, and I despair, as we react with more hurdles, more penalties, and harsher rules, when generally, if we provided the mechanisms, we could train many of these accidents out of experienced drivers, who simply lack motorcycle skills.

Your well meant response illustrates why we need proper research. It's well meant opinion and conjecture but what we need is real research instead of everyone shooting from the hip at different targets.