"85 per cent of all crashes occur below the speed limit"

[mangell6]

This from the NZ Herald.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3534153&thesection=news&thesubsection=general

>>>>Start of Article<<<
Speeding leeway tipped to stay

14.11.2003
By KEVIN TAYLOR political reporter

The 10km/h speed camera tolerance police operate will probably not be lowered, the Government has signalled.

Police Minister George Hawkins told Parliament yesterday that lowering the tolerance was not the Government's policy and "probably won't be".

He was being questioned by National Party police spokesman Tony Ryall over traffic ticket quotas and a suggestion the 10km/h tolerance might be halved.

Pointing out that 85 per cent of all crashes occur below the speed limit, Mr Ryall asked why he was supporting a lower tolerance when it was "not those speeds that kill".

Mr Hawkins replied: "That is not the Government's policy, it probably won't be the Government's policy."

Transport Minister Paul Swain is working on proposals designed to help cut the annual road toll and a package of measures, due next month, was believed by some to have included a plan to lower the police tolerance to speed limit breaches.

A spokeswoman for Mr Swain said yesterday that lowering the tolerance had always been a low priority but she would not elaborate further other than to say a package of measures is due to go to Cabinet next month.

Mr Ryall said later that Mr Hawkins' statement indicated the Government would back down on the plan.

"This is the clearest indication yet that Labour is under pressure to abandon the speed camera move in the face of strong political and public opposition."

Earlier yesterday, National MP and former transport minister Maurice Williamson questioned Land Transport Safety Authority (LTSA) officials at a select committee on the proposal to lower the tolerance.

He said that on any day of the week traffic on Auckland motorways flowed above the 5km/h tolerance proposed. "The serious accident - the very serious injury and the death ones - involve speeds considerably beyond the 10km/h tolerance and that your real target needs to be people above that."

But LTSA director David Wright said there was a "significant problem" with people driving over the speed limit on urban roads as well as the open road.

He said the proposal to lower the tolerance was only an "option" for Mr Swain to consider along with other options dealing with management of speed.

Mr Wright cited the example of two cars, one doing 50km/h and one doing 60km/h, on an urban street who both spotted somebody 40m ahead and were forced to brake.

"The car that's doing 50km/h will be able to stop before he hits the pedestrian. The car doing 60km/h is still going to hit that pedestrian or cyclist with sufficient force to cause significant injury if not death."

Mr Williamson said drivers questioned the need for the cameras on Waipuna Rd, Ti Rakau Drive, the Ellerslie Panmure Highway and some other arterial roads in the city.

The Pakuranga MP said there was a groundswell of public feeling that the speed cameras were just revenue-catchers, and although the three sites might have been blackspots once, they were not any more.

"[Police] are just simply able to go click, click, click all day long and even the vicar on his way home from church on Sundays is getting clicked."

Mr Wright said speed camera sites were regularly reassessed but he could not comment on the three sites Mr Williamson cited.

He said there was no change to the policy of putting cameras in the worst accident spots. The cameras were to address road safety, not for revenue gathering.

Camera fines collected

* 2001-02 $31.7 million

* 2002-03 $32.8 million

Police have no separate region-by-region figures.

>>>>End of Article<<<<

[Jackrat]

Yep,that used to be called the 85-15 rule,I hope it stays on the open road.
As for the suburbs,I don,t think it should apply,I,m not talking about main roads,but side roads an such,were our kids live an play.I did a defencive riding course in OZ and was suprised at the number of guys that had crashed into cars in 50km areas while traveling at 70plus,The thing that really struck me was most of these guys still maintained they were not at fault,Dick heads!!

[wkid_one]

I gotta agree here to....whilst I think that riding at excessive speed on the open road is a risk you take...I have no tolerance for speeding in a 50kph zone.

I was knocked over by a driver doing 40kph past an emptying school (admittedly I ran across the road - aged 5) - but had they been doing 20 as is legal - I wouldn't have been hit as they would have stopped.

I would be gutted enough to hit anyone at 50kph - let alone be driving at 70kph in a residential area - fuck that.

At least if I do it on the open road - I am more than likely to only injure myself

&nbsp;

[What?]

Couldn't agree more. Many places in town 50 is too fast. Many places out of town, 100 can be too slow ( boring = loss of concentration etc)

[Lou Girardin]

It's hard to believe but we do not have lower speed limits in school zones, only when passing school buses. That would be one of the speed limits that I would agree to having no tolerance applied. But then, when did you last see a cop enforcing school bus limits?
Lou

[vifferman]

Jackrat said:

I did a defencive riding course in OZ and was suprised at the number of guys that had crashed into cars in 50km areas while traveling at 70plus

I know this isn't quite what you meant, but I was amazed when driving in Victoria (the place NZ copies all the stupid ideas from, for some unfathomable reason) that due to the terror regime with hidden speed cameras, spotter planes, etc., people drive at LESS than 100 km/h on the "open" road for fear they will get pinged, yet around town they will scream along at anything up to or over 100 k. (!)
The big problem on the highways in Victoria now is you've got these long, boring, well-surfaced roads, with people crawling along and dropping off to sleep coz it's too damned boring! The mind is a funny thing - without sensory input, it starts to ignore whatever isn't changing. Make speed limits safe and comfy <yawn, crash>; make roads straight and safe <yawn, crash>, etc.

I read an article by a guy in NT, who found that it didn't matter what speed he did (100, 200) on the long straight roads there, it was impossible to stay alert. The answer was to vary the speed as much as possible, so that the brain paid attention.

By the way - the road toll is creeping up again, despite the blitz on speeding.
Strange that. Funny how the simplistic statistical approach to road safety doesn't work...

[Jackrat]

Yeah I know what you mean about the long bits.I drove a pilot vehicule over there for a couple of years,that South oz to Sydney Road would put anyone to sleep.I did the west oz run a couple of times and was suprised that people crash on the corners on the Nullabor until I saw it for myself,The longest straight peace of road in the world and people miss the only corner for 290kms,Gott'a laugh until it happens to you. :Oops:

[Devil]

By the way - the road toll is creeping up again, despite the blitz on speeding.
Strange that. Funny how the simplistic statistical approach to road safety doesn't work...
Thats because the road toll doesn't take into account general population increase, or the increase in cars on the road. Comparing 5 years worth of road toll trend is useless without the above information.

[Skyryder]

Well it is good news to hear that the 10 k tolerance is still going to apply. :banana: Schools now have a 40 k speed restriction outside the main entrance. This is usually marked by way of neon lights when it is in force. If my memory serves me correctly a school bus with signs front and rear should not be passed any faster than 20 k's. As for the 50 k speed limit in the urban area I believe this should be upped to 60 kph. Too fast then what aboput 55. Like who drives at at fifty these days? And when you do come up behind someone who is going that speed what do you do? Pass them or mutter obscenities for going so slow :argh:

Skyryder

[spudchucka]

Thats because the road toll doesn't take into account general population increase, or the increase in cars on the road. Nor does it account for rash stupidity and the national deterioration of the common sense gland amongst our population.

[Posh Tourer :P]

Well it is good news to hear that the 10 k tolerance is still going to apply. :banana: Schools now have a 40 k speed restriction outside the main entrance. This is usually marked by way of neon lights when it is in force. If my memory serves me correctly a school bus with signs front and rear should not be passed any faster than 20 k's. As for the 50 k speed limit in the urban area I believe this should be upped to 60 kph. Too fast then what aboput 55. Like who drives at at fifty these days? And when you do come up behind someone who is going that speed what do you do? Pass them or mutter obscenities for going so slow :argh:

Skyryder

And then people will drive at 70. People will always push the limits. try falling off at 60 and see now fast it feels. Its all about habituation. 60 is seen as a normal speed and thus not that fast ( I do it myself). Then I compare it with the distances I cover in the same time by walking / cycling and think bloody hell we are lucky to be going 50. It takes me 3hours to walk home from town, but only 10 mins to ride.

[Lou Girardin]

Well it is good news to hear that the 10 k tolerance is still going to apply. :banana: Schools now have a 40 k speed restriction outside the main entrance. This is usually marked by way of neon lights when it is in force. If my memory serves me correctly a school bus with signs front and rear should not be passed any faster than 20 k's. As for the 50 k speed limit in the urban area I believe this should be upped to 60 kph. Too fast then what aboput 55. Like who drives at at fifty these days? And when you do come up behind someone who is going that speed what do you do? Pass them or mutter obscenities for going so slow :argh:

Skyryder

Have I missed something? When was a blanket 40km/h school zone enacted?
Lou
PS. If you spend years and millions of dollars telling people that safe driving consists of keeping to the speed limit and wearing your seat belt, most will believe it.

[vifferman]

When I was working in Perth (1999), I noticed that there are often police blitzes on speed around schools. I can't remember what the limit is (30? 40?) but it is rigorously enforced, and quite rightly too. They also have volunteers that stand in the middle of the road with flags to make sure people don't drive through school crossings. Also a very good idea, except in D'Auckland they'd have to replace the volunteer every second day...

[scumdog]

Jackrat said:


I know this isn't quite what you meant, but I was amazed when driving in Victoria (the place NZ copies all the stupid ideas from, for some unfathomable reason) that due to the terror regime with hidden speed cameras, spotter planes, etc., people drive at LESS than 100 km/h on the "open" road for fear they will get pinged, yet around town they will scream along at anything up to or over 100 k. (!)
The big problem on the highways in Victoria now is you've got these long, boring, well-surfaced roads, with people crawling along and dropping off to sleep coz it's too damned boring! The mind is a funny thing - without sensory input, it starts to ignore whatever isn't changing. Make speed limits safe and comfy <yawn, crash>; make roads straight and safe <yawn, crash>, etc.

I read an article by a guy in NT, who found that it didn't matter what speed he did (100, 200) on the long straight roads there, it was impossible to stay alert. The answer was to vary the speed as much as possible, so that the brain paid attention.

By the way - the road toll is creeping up again, despite the blitz on speeding.
Strange that. Funny how the simplistic statistical approach to road safety doesn't work...

Everybody that goes on about "yeah man, the road toll is rising, all those road nazis have got it wrong man (trying to sound like Neil out of the "Young oNES") should see the facts - sure the toll HAS gone up but look how the total km AND total vehicle numbers has gone up over the last five years - percentage-wise the road deaths have still gone down, if you like I'll get the figures.

The mention of 80% (or whatever the number mentioned was) crashes happened below the speed limit is probably linkrd to the fact that at least that number of people drive/ride at or below the speed limit.

[Skyryder]

Have I missed something? When was a blanket 40km/h school zone enacted?
Lou
PS. If you spend years and millions of dollars telling people that safe driving consists of keeping to the speed limit and wearing your seat belt, most will believe it.

Lou Go to http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/roads/traffic-notes/docs/tn37-gaz-notice-04072002.pdf

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

And then people will drive at 70. People will always push the limits. try falling off at 60 and see now fast it feels. Its all about habituation. 60 is seen as a normal speed and thus not that fast ( I do it myself). Then I compare it with the distances I cover in the same time by walking / cycling and think bloody hell we are lucky to be going 50. It takes me 3hours to walk home from town, but only 10 mins to ride.

Yes I know that the prevailing theory for not upping the limit in the urban area is the one that you have suggested. People will drive at 70. I hold the view that the reason most people drive at around 60k's is that this is deemed to be a safe driving speed. Like I mean to say who here drives at 50k's when they can drive just under 60 safely??

Skyryder

[FzerozeroT]

Just got back from india and the speed limit is not enforced AT ALL by police, it is enforced by the Suzuki 800's that everybody drives and the 50 Year old roads that keep speeds below 60 or you will lose a wheel! Little boys that I talked to were amazed that our limit was 100kph, "have you ever been faster than that?" - "of course not, that would be against the law" :)

[Lou Girardin]

Lou Go to http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/roads/traffic-notes/docs/tn37-gaz-notice-04072002.pdf

Skyryder

Thanks, I've never seen these signs at any of our local schools. It's surprising that they're not using them.
Lou

[wkid_one]

Well - given some inordinate amount of accidents happen at intersections - it would go without saying that they happen below the speed limit.

Fuck - at the end of the day - regardless of the speed limit - if the general population of NZ can only score 40 odd percent on our road code - you are asking for trouble - regardless of what the speed limit is. Why is it that the focus is on speed when so many kiwi's don't even know the road code? I'm sorry but I would rather face an educated driver coming at me at 140kph than a dunce at 90kph.

This education v legislation argument has come up before.

Like this new LTSA ad....who fucken cares what happens to you if you are travelling 5kph quicker than the car next to you. Teach people about how to IDENTITY AND AVOID possible accidents rather than convince them that travelling at 50kph is the Holy Grail that will be the saving grace of all drivers.

The LTSA seem to have this 'If you travel at the speed limit - you won't have an accident' - theme to their advertising campaigns - this couldn't be further from the truth. If you travel at the speed limit - and you don't know the fucken road rules, know nothing about hazard identification and risk minimisation - you ARE an accident waiting to happen.

This pisses me off - as it is OUR money that is paying for these worthless ads. Yet - we in general are more aware of hazards etc by the very nature that we have more to lose.....think about how much safer motorcycling would be WITHOUT CARS.

[Lou Girardin]

Good point, and call me slow, but I've just realised that the slower vehicle in that ad also had an accident. So the LTSA message is that it's OK to have little accidents not big ones.
Lou
PS Why didn't the right hand car steer around the rear of the truck?

[James Deuce]

Lou, Wkid - thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you....

[riffer]

PS Why didn't the right hand car steer around the rear of the truck?
Because then the majority of the thickos that drive in the country would be confused by the ad.

Remember Lou, the average IQ is 100. That means, according to general bell curve probability, that there will be at least 20 percent of the drivers on the road will have an IQ up to 25 points below that.

A scary prospect, especially as I would imagine most of the people that frequent this site would easily score 25 points over the average.

LTSA have to make ads the "average person on the street" understand. The average person on the street thinks New Zealand Idol is a good example of entertaining TV and value for our TV money too.

[SPman]

Remember Lou, the average IQ is 100. That means, according to general bell curve probability, that there will be at least 20 percent of the drivers on the road will have an IQ up to 25 points below that.....
..... The average person on the street thinks New Zealand Idol is a good example of entertaining TV and value for our TV money too. :argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::brick::buggerd:


A scary prospect, especially as I would imagine most of the people that frequent this site would easily score 25 points over the average. Are you sure about that? :bleh:

[spudchucka]

Good point, and call me slow, but I've just realised that the slower vehicle in that ad also had an accident. So the LTSA message is that it's OK to have little accidents not big ones.
Lou
PS Why didn't the right hand car steer around the rear of the truck?

The message is that when you have an accident, speed relates directly to the net damage incurred.

[Jackrat]

The message is that when you have an accident, speed relates directly to the net damage incurred.
Yet all these above average IQ types still can't work that out.
Just as well I'm below average,I worked it out as soon as I saw it.
Seems being a bright fuck means you also have to read things that are not there into everything.The message was pretty bloody simple.But,But,But,Yeah sure. :baby:

[spudchucka]

Yet all these above average IQ types still can't work that out.
Just as well I'm below average,I worked it out as soon as I saw it.
Seems being a bright fuck means you also have to read things that are not there into everything.The message was pretty bloody simple.But,But,But,Yeah sure. :baby:
People see what they want to see, its the head up your own arse syndrome.

[FROSTY]

what happened to the idea of varying the speed limit to uit conditions?
Like 40km in a cul de sac or round schools and 110 on an open wide highway

[madandy]

That would be too confusing for the wizards in government...trying to decide which speed limit sign to assign to an area... :rolleyes:

[avgas]

but speed is not poportional to damage, you can crash at 200kph and not die, where as if you crash into something at 50kph you can.
Momentum is the key here - if the bike stops, and you keep going, you end up with the total momentum. Yes speed is propotional to momentum, but speed alone does not cause damage.
The reason for my saying this, was the most horrific crash i have ever had on a bike (6 months ago), was when i was doing 20kph!
Long story short - i was taken out by a car, my leg was shattered, and my safety gear saved the rest of me from serious harm (allthough i did turn black for a while).
The other bad crashes i have had all below 45.
Mind due, with that said - how many people survive a 100+kph crash into something?

[bluninja]

but speed is not poportional to damage, you can crash at 200kph and not die, where as if you crash into something at 50kph you can.
Momentum is the key here - if the bike stops, and you keep going, you end up with the total momentum. Yes speed is propotional to momentum, but speed alone does not cause damage.
The reason for my saying this, was the most horrific crash i have ever had on a bike (6 months ago), was when i was doing 20kph!
Long story short - i was taken out by a car, my leg was shattered, and my safety gear saved the rest of me from serious harm (allthough i did turn black for a while).
The other bad crashes i have had all below 45.
Mind due, with that said - how many people survive a 100+kph crash into something?

It's not how fast you were going...it's how fast you stop :brick:

[rodgerd]

Like this new LTSA ad....who fucken cares what happens to you if you are travelling 5kph quicker than the car next to you.


The person you hit?



This pisses me off - as it is OUR money that is paying for these worthless ads. Yet - we in general are more aware of hazards etc by the very nature that we have more to lose.....think about how much safer motorcycling would be WITHOUT CARS.

Not much, when you look at the number of single-vehicle motorcycle crashes.

[riffer]

Not much, when you look at the number of single-vehicle motorcycle crashes.
Yes but if they got rid of the cars, and the trucks, and put all the non-motorcyclists and the freight on the trains, then they wouldn't have to straighten "our" hill... :lol:

[Slim]

I know this isn't quite what you meant, but I was amazed when driving in Victoria (the place NZ copies all the stupid ideas from, for some unfathomable reason) that due to the terror regime with hidden speed cameras, spotter planes, etc., people drive at LESS than 100 km/h on the "open" road for fear they will get pinged.
I noticed that too, but will add that they won't accelerate until their car is physically past the speedlimit change sign either! And how safe is it to be spending more time checking your speedometer than the road & all its hazards because you're afraid of being pinged? :blink:


As for the 50kph speed limit in the urban area I believe this should be upped to 60kph. Too fast then what about 55. Like who drives at at fifty these days? And when you do come up behind someone who is going that speed what do you do? Pass them or mutter obscenities for going so slow
I wish that all drivers would follow the 50kph limit more closely where it is applied. Hamilton's pretty good with applying 50, 60, 70 & 80kph speed limits where they're most suitable, and while a lot of drivers still "take" that 10kph leeway, they quite often don't when the limit changes up (if you get what I mean. I think I've even managed to confuse myself! :crazy: ) Alternatively, it's actually almost impossible to do 50kph in downtown Hamilton. Most often, it's more like 35-40kph (which I actually had as a negative, but not fail-worthy, point when I failed my first Learner Car licence test! It was the parallel parking & hill start that actually did me in!)

Lou: about the variable speed limit school signs - perhaps you should contact your local schools with this information & find out the best way to get your Council to apply it, and get the ball rolling? Good luck. :)

About the LTSA ad: I got the point (difference in damage), but my first thought was that a more observant person would be on the brakes sooner than a less observant or defensive driver & that training and/or experience would change their results quite a bit. There is also more than one way to handle an approaching hazard, and slamming on the brakes & heading straight for it is not the smartest! Why didn't the guy on the right head around the back? :confused: So we're back to that old chestut: the LTSA spending advertising (brain washing ;) ) money on training instead of scare tactics.


Celtic: I may be a blonde chick, but I'm 30+ over the National IQ average! :bleh: Shame my bra size isn't ... above the national average, that is. :(

[onearmedbandit]

Question. Do the reported single vehicle motorcycle accident numbers include accidents, where say a car pulls out in front of a bike, and crashes without hitting another vehicle, say by riding off the road, hitting a road sign, locking the brakes and losing it? Whether the other driver stops or leaves the scene?

[Jamezo]

Celtic: I may be a blonde chick, but I'm 30+ over the National IQ average! :bleh: Shame my bra size isn't ... above the national average, that is. :(

smartness! I did test the nation both times, 118 both times. at least I'm consistent!

[NC]

Because then the majority of the thickos that drive in the country would be confused by the ad.

Remember Lou, the average IQ is 100. That means, according to general bell curve probability, that there will be at least 20 percent of the drivers on the road will have an IQ up to 25 points below that.

A scary prospect, especially as I would imagine most of the people that frequent this site would easily score 25 points over the average.

LTSA have to make ads the "average person on the street" understand. The average person on the street thinks New Zealand Idol is a good example of entertaining TV and value for our TV money too.

IQ tests are crap! I can't spell for cashews!
I mean, I sat an IQ test and got 141!! And the test was at Auckland Uni.. Wasn't one of those lame arse TV ones.
What's that saying about the country???
HAHAHA Ruths smarter than the greater population of NZ...Bow down to her...bow down!!! :2guns: :2guns:

[Blakamin]

About the LTSA ad: So we're back to that old chestut: the LTSA spending advertising (brain washing ;) ) money on training instead of scare tactics.

wouldnt have cost them that much...have a look at the rego's...
Victorian cars = Aussie ad
which is made by the Transport Accident Commission.... thats sort of their job..
when I got back here 3 years ago, 85% of ltsa ads were TAC ads with voice overs!!...geez I laughed (they were all about a year old) :sleep:

[TonyB]

Thats because the road toll doesn't take into account general population increase, or the increase in cars on the road. Comparing 5 years worth of road toll trend is useless without the above information.
They need to base the road toll on the distance travelled, something like deaths per 100,000km travelled and injuries per 100,000km travelled. I understand they do that already in some countries.

[Sniper]

And then people will drive at 70. People will always push the limits. try falling off at 60 and see now fast it feels. Its all about habituation. 60 is seen as a normal speed and thus not that fast ( I do it myself). Then I compare it with the distances I cover in the same time by walking / cycling and think bloody hell we are lucky to be going 50. It takes me 3hours to walk home from town, but only 10 mins to ride.

Falling off at 60 is just as bad as falling off at 70 but it gets worse after 90kph. I dont think I know from experience. :spudwhat: :innocent:

[spudchucka]

They need to base the road toll on the distance travelled, something like deaths per 100,000km travelled and injuries per 100,000km travelled. I understand they do that already in some countries.
They do it here too. Have a look at the LTSA web site, there are heaps of reports on line.

[TwoSeven]

I wonder how many of those low speed crashes included taking the bike off the paddock stand without the side stand down, and trying to drive with the disc lock still on.

Hopefully they didnt do it [the study] from insurance claims.

[dhunt]

Another interesting stat would in town versas out of town accidents, my guess would be most accidents happen around town.

(Somewhere I read 70% of M/C accidents happen at intersections).

[Artifice]

intersections are nasty.
if youfilter through traffic between a car turning left and a car turning right. the oncoming car turning inffront of you probably will attempt to run you over as you go through. oh yes and if you are tailgating a car through an intersection... the oncoming car turning right may try to turn you into a hood ornament also.
those exits off a blind left hand corner are the ones tha probably get the most motorcyle wheels in the driver door though.

[Nutter34]

Okay, taking the original title into account.... How many low speed accidents would happen on the open road where the road markings weren't suitable for the type. I've seen many a twisty road without no-overtaking lines, or blind rises, the same. On many occasions I've decided to wait just a bit longer before overtaking and something's come from the front.
With some of the roads, and a common practice of slow drivers to accelerate when an overtaking section comes up, it just encourages people to take chances but the road markings don't always inform of conditions correctly.

[bear]

The cops always use blanket statistics to report to the public, I think in this age more intelligent statistics are needed to be provided. The first message in this thread stated that the Police don't have regional statistics on revenue gained from speed cameras - bullsh*t! They just don't want to report it.
And reporting on the type of accidents that cause the most injuries or deaths would help the general public and allow us to concentrate on those scenarios.

[spudchucka]

The cops always use blanket statistics to report to the public, I think in this age more intelligent statistics are needed to be provided. The first message in this thread stated that the Police don't have regional statistics on revenue gained from speed cameras - bullsh*t! They just don't want to report it.
And reporting on the type of accidents that cause the most injuries or deaths would help the general public and allow us to concentrate on those scenarios.
Go have a look at the LTSA web site, there are dozens of graphs and stats showing what you say aren't published. Even stats of the most productive speed cameras are ther somewhere.

[Lou Girardin]

Go have a look at the LTSA web site, there are dozens of graphs and stats showing what you say aren't published. Even stats of the most productive speed cameras are ther somewhere.

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. LTSA uses all three to defend their cash flow.

[WINJA]

I gotta agree here to....whilst I think that riding at excessive speed on the open road is a risk you take...I have no tolerance for speeding in a 50kph zone.

I was knocked over by a driver doing 40kph past an emptying school (admittedly I ran across the road - aged 5) - but had they been doing 20 as is legal - I wouldn't have been hit as they would have stopped.

I would be gutted enough to hit anyone at 50kph - let alone be driving at 70kph in a residential area - fuck that.

At least if I do it on the open road - I am more than likely to only injure myself

&nbsp;
5 YEAR OLD CHILDREN SHOULD BE SUPERVISED, THE ROAD IS NOT A PLAY GROUND. THATS NOT A SPEEDING ISSUE THATS A PARENTING ISSUE

[spudchucka]

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. LTSA uses all three to defend their cash flow.
So does anyone who uses stats to push their message. We all know they can be used to preach a partial or one sided message, its up to people to hopefully use some intelligence to decifer the message.

[AMPS]

Intelligence helps, but doing your own research is better. There are more credible sources out there than Monash University, TRRL in the UK is a good place to start.
Lou

[crazylittleshit]

Insane goverment revenue Is going over board latley.
The logic behind it all is If you can afford a veichle then you must have extra money and we all know how much the goverment love there money. :Oi:

[avgas]

How does a speed camera stop an accident?
Horrific crash signs would be more effictive i think
I once heard a story of a guy that got 3 speed camera tickets before crashing into another car
food for thought

[scumdog]

How does a speed camera stop an accident?
Horrific crash signs would be more effictive i think
I once heard a story of a guy that got 3 speed camera tickets before crashing into another car
food for thought

Probably dumb enough to piss on a live electric fence more than once too... :blah:

[750Y]

Probably dumb enough to piss on a live electric fence more than once too... :blah:

probably, after all... people who get speed camera tickets and other lawbreakers are obviously of lesser intelligence.

[Hooks]

Well it has been my experience lately that I have had more near misses moving around town in the lower speed areas than on the open road !! People are continuously making last minute changes as they get their route sorted as they go ..... I tend to have a route in mind BEFORE I set off and so am better prepared for making the right decisions as to which lane I want and takes the panic out of riding in high density traffic. I get sick of the "you're on a bike so I can sqeeze over on top of you or I'll miss the turn" thinking !! They wouldn't do it to a truck or 4X4 !!

[spudchucka]

5 YEAR OLD CHILDREN SHOULD BE SUPERVISED, THE ROAD IS NOT A PLAY GROUND. THATS NOT A SPEEDING ISSUE THATS A PARENTING ISSUE
And five year olds who are allowed to use the computer unsupervised should be taught how to use the Caps Lock key.

[marty]

he's obviously never been to otara

[Lou Girardin]

This stuff is not new. The Government TRRL in the UK showed that the 'excessive speed is responsible for 30% of fatal accidents' line was misleading if not downright dishonest way back in 1996. Exceeding the speed limit is responsible for 7% of fatals. speed as a major factor is responsible for a further 5%. Monash Accident Research Centre and their LTSA lapdogs have vested interest in inflating these figures. For example, a car that leaves the road on a bend is automatically regarded to have been speeding.
They can't take 100's of millions in fines unless they present an argument to do so. This is it.
If speeding was so dangerous, why do so many cops do it?

[scumdog]

.If speeding was so dangerous, why do so many cops do it?

'Cos we like living dangerously?? :Oops: :rolleyes:

[AMPS]

'Cos we like living dangerously?? :Oops: :rolleyes:

Then we have something in common.
Lou

[avgas]

great now we have cops that are thrill seekers, electric fence pissing speeders and speed cameras that collect for the gov's coffers.
Feel like you in a cartoon.
Hey scumdog, by pissing on a electric fence you dont live dangerously :P .....................or do you????
hang on..............

[Blakamin]

Does anyone know what caused the accident on SH1 in Kapiti on saturday??
was on the road all day and missed the news.... all i know is 2 fatalities on another infamous kapiti intersection (shit, we got heaps of them)
was it speed or incorrect use of a corner??? maybe even a head on???

[scumdog]

great now we have cops that are thrill seekers, electric fence pissing speeders and speed cameras that collect for the gov's coffers.
Feel like you in a cartoon.
Hey scumdog, by pissing on a electric fence you dont live dangerously :P .....................or do you????
hang on..............

APARENTLY.. the trick is to see who can keep the stream going over the live wire the longest, there's NO doubt who can't... :crazy:

[scumdog]

Then we have something in common.
Lou
'Course sometimes going to work 'the living dangerously' part :shit:

[Stevo]

If speeding was so dangerous, why do so many cops do it?
Duh! Heard of "Holier than thou"?

Everything in life has risk though. Clever (not necessarily more intelligent) minimise the risks they take. I live dangerously. I work on a farm. I ride bikes. I race bikes. I swim in swimming pools and rivers. I play sport. I scuba dive............................................ blah blahblah.

Really intelligent people do REALLY DUMB THINGS!!! It is a fact of life. As referring to advertising, I thought the ad in question involving the two cars hitting the truck was pretty simple. I think I am intelexially a brainiack - :killingme, (ok not really) but am clever enough to spell intellectually which must count for something.

What gets me are smoking ads telling smokers how much it smells, or what it does to their lungs etc. Yet every smoker knows (unlike some drivers) the results of their actions. Why tell them what they aleady know?????????

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh

I have a good prov Tax bill due in March. Possibly I should write a letter to our dearest Helen and tell her I won't pay up till they stop wasting tax money :spudwhat: :killingme :killingme
Besides they've already collected enough in fuel taxes from me this year...

[azaa]

does that mean if we speed were 15% less likely to have a crash????
lol sori guys me bein me

[scumdog]

The main thing is 'the faster you go the bigger the mess' - sometimes that means the eef-wit that is speeding gets pulled over and then it is 'no WOF sir?, no Rego sir? not got your licence on you sir? your tyre is a bit bald sir? etc.
Generally the faster the speed in the built-up area the more of a disaster the vehicle is.

[Jantar]

The message is that when you have an accident, speed relates directly to the net damage incurred.

Not true. The car travelling at the lower speed hit the flat surface on the side of the truck spreading the impact over a large area and minimalising the damage. The faster car hit the sharp rear corner of the truck causing maximum damage. The damage relates directly to the point of impact, not the speed of travel in this instance. I would not make this claim as a general rule, but this IS the way this ad shows it.

[scumdog]

Right Jantar, good point but come this evening I will point out the futility of such argument (as long as your wine supply holds out) but be aware that this advertiment is a as accurate as any, i.e. Mitsubishi, McDonalds etc.

See you tonight eh!!

[Jantar]

Right Jantar, good point but come this evening I will point out the futility of such argument (as long as your wine supply holds out) but be aware that this advertiment is a as accurate as any, i.e. Mitsubishi, McDonalds etc.

See you tonight eh!!

Wine, Bourbon and Coke, or just good old beer....

I'm looking forward to it :yeah:

[scumdog]

Wine, Bourbon and Coke, or just good old beer....

I'm looking forward to it :yeah:

You bet!! The losers tomorrow will be those that were too lilly-livered to get their shit to gether and head for the fine accomadation at Springvale Road eh? Make sure your ice/coke supply is unlimited, o.k.?

[spudchucka]

Not true. The car travelling at the lower speed hit the flat surface on the side of the truck spreading the impact over a large area and minimalising the damage. The faster car hit the sharp rear corner of the truck causing maximum damage. The damage relates directly to the point of impact, not the speed of travel in this instance. I would not make this claim as a general rule, but this IS the way this ad shows it.
Dude, I don't give a stuff about ads and I wasn't refering to that ad at all when I wrote that.

I'm simply refering to the physics involved, look at it objectively and you can't deny that speed + sudden impact = big fucken mess. The faster you go, the bigger the mess. Cliche, but oh so true!

[avgas]

why on that add did they both play chicken with a truck?

[James Deuce]

why on that add did they both play chicken with a truck?
Bloody oath - I'd be heading down the road the truck came out of, not standing on my brakes in that, "It's the only way I was shown how to stop a vehicle quickly" method that most kiwis seem to employ. If I had my family in the car, I'd run down the dudes standing on the side of the road on my right in preference to hitting the trucks.

[riffer]

Bloody oath - I'd be heading down the road the truck came out of, not standing on my brakes in that, "It's the only way I was shown how to stop a vehicle quickly" method that most kiwis seem to employ. If I had my family in the car, I'd run down the dudes standing on the side of the road on my right in preference to hitting the trucks.


Oh come on now Jim, then the ad would make no sense whatsoever. :bash:

The trouble is, when they indulge in pseudo-intellectual BS to try and prove a point it usually ends up being misleading.

If they told the truth and said the real problem was innapropriate speed for the conditions, you could never police it: "Sorry Officer, I believe my speed was perfectly appropriate for the conditions. I realise the corner advisory sign was 35 km/hr, but I am a better than average driver and it doesn't apply to me."

The only thing you can police is an arbitrary limit.

Anyway, it applies to Australian roads, where the suburban speed limit is 60 km/hr. If there was a policeman there with a Hawk, both would quite possibly be charge for exceeding the limit by 10-20 km/hr.

If both cars were doing 50 km/hr then both would have stopped in time.

[avgas]

Bloody oath - I'd be heading down the road the truck came out of, not standing on my brakes in that, "It's the only way I was shown how to stop a vehicle quickly" method that most kiwis seem to employ. If I had my family in the car, I'd run down the dudes standing on the side of the road on my right in preference to hitting the trucks.
Be a hilarious add...
"Here we have 2 cars, One doing 60, One doing 65..........AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! SWEET JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!! CUT CUT!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[avgas]

If both cars were doing 50 km/hr then both would have stopped in time.
I would have to dissagree here, if they were both stupid enough to drive 400m into a parked truck, doing 50 would have slowed the add down.
But all you folks who sit above 55kmh, let this be a lesson - your stupid

[James Deuce]

Be a hilarious add...
"Here we have 2 cars, One doing 60, One doing 65..........AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! SWEET JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!! CUT CUT!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Bahahaaa!

I wanna film that.

I'll grab a digital video camera, the boss's XR6 and Jackrat's truck.

Back soon.

[vtec]

The person you hit?



Not much, when you look at the number of single-vehicle motorcycle crashes.
Single vehicle motorcycle crashes includes offroad accidents as well which makes it a very deceptive statistic. The ACC charge in our registration also covers people in motorcycle accidents who don't have to register their off road bikes.

[moko]

Biggest rise in bike accidents in the U.K. is now single riders stuffing up corners on dry Summer days.There`s a big "summer rider" culture here now with guys dusting down the Fireblade after 6 monthes of driving the car then heading for the twisties thinking their name`s Rossi.Used to be that we could defend ourselves because for years it was drivers pulling out of junctions that was the major problem.Now there`s no-one else to blame,these dorks are giving the government plenty of ammo to throw at us,the Transport Minister has actually said he`d love to see bikes banned.Even the bike mags have run articles saying it`s getting stupid and these guys are doing none of us any favours.There was actually a serious effort to ban bikes back in the 80`s,that was dropped but they wanted massive "protectors" fitted on them to protect against side-impact.They finally caved-in under pressure from campaigners but brought out a 125 limited-power law for learners that killed off the popular 250 sector almost over-night.Biggest fatality group now is guys in their 40`s who have either qualified via Direct Access(pass your test on a GS500 and you can straight away ride an R1)or "born-agains" who had a GS750 20 years ago,never ridden since but they get back into it with another 750 Suzuki expecting the same kind of performance and having lost the road sense they had in their bike days.

[gav]

I would have to dissagree here, if they were both stupid enough to drive 400m into a parked truck, doing 50 would have slowed the add down.
But all you folks who sit above 55kmh, let this be a lesson - your stupid
They forgot to state "if you had been travelling at 80km/h you would have passed this truck pulling out, no worries. Therefore its safer to drive faster, as you spend less time on the road"
:2thumbsup :stupid:

[James Deuce]

Biggest rise in bike accidents in the U.K. is now single riders stuffing up corners on dry Summer days.There`s a big "summer rider" culture here now with guys dusting down the Fireblade after 6 monthes of driving the car then heading for the twisties thinking their name`s Rossi.Used to be that we could defend ourselves because for years it was drivers pulling out of junctions that was the major problem.

Hey
Hey
HEY

No, sorry you're right; I am a dork.

(slinks back to dork cave)

[Lou Girardin]

Bloody oath - I'd be heading down the road the truck came out of, not standing on my brakes in that, "It's the only way I was shown how to stop a vehicle quickly" method that most kiwis seem to employ. If I had my family in the car, I'd run down the dudes standing on the side of the road on my right in preference to hitting the trucks.

Thats it, using the big round thing in front of you. Makes the car go around corners and helps avoid trucks.
Does Monash know this?

[vtec]

Question. Do the reported single vehicle motorcycle accident numbers include accidents, where say a car pulls out in front of a bike, and crashes without hitting another vehicle, say by riding off the road, hitting a road sign, locking the brakes and losing it? Whether the other driver stops or leaves the scene?


Excellent point bandit, this has accounted for pretty much all of my offs. Not once has a car stopped, and usually I manage to avoid them but come off in the process.

[XP@]

Ok, ok we get the speeding thing.

It seems like most drivers have got the picture now, drivers have slowed down and seem to stick, in the most part to the limit (or what their speedo says is the limit usually about 90kph)

If you watch the news now the majority of accidents involving death or serious injury are reported slightly differently...

"The driver crossed the centerline"

In this type of accident there is often a corner involved and little time for evasive manouvers. Drivers cutting a corners could be doing it for 2 reasons... going in too fast or too lazy. Where there is no corner involved then there is something wrong with the driver (heart attack or similar) or complete lack of concentration (yelling at the kids, on the phone, spilling the coffee), in any of the cases the driver at fault will not be in a position to react much, and if they do the probability is they will over react.

In all but a few cases there is no excuse, to go over the centre line, apart from crap driving.

What are the Police, ACC & government doing about it?
Erecting wire barriers.
Issuing more speeding tickets.

What should they be doing about it?
Better education?
Booking unsafe drivers?

IMHO someone who is actually concentrating on the road and doing 120kmph is a lot safer than someone on a cellphone and driving at 80kmph.

[XP@]

Ok, ok we get the speeding thing.

It seems like most drivers have got the picture now, drivers have slowed down and seem to stick, in the most part to the limit (or what their speedo says is the limit usually about 90kph)

If you watch the news now the majority of accidents involving death or serious injury are reported slightly differently...

"The driver crossed the centerline"

In this type of accident there is often a corner involved and little time for evasive manouvers. Drivers cutting a corners could be doing it for 2 reasons... going in too fast or too lazy. Where there is no corner involved then there is something wrong with the driver (heart attack or similar) or complete lack of concentration (yelling at the kids, on the phone, spilling the coffee), in any of the cases the driver at fault will not be in a position to react much, and if they do the probability is they will over react.

In all but a few cases there is no excuse, to go over the centre line, apart from crap driving.

What are the Police, ACC & government doing about it?
Erecting wire barriers.
Issuing more speeding tickets.

What should they be doing about it?
Better education?
Booking unsafe drivers?

IMHO someone who is actually concentrating on the road and doing 120kmph is a lot safer than someone on a cellphone and driving at 80kmph.

[Redstar]

Paul Swain is no longer the Minister Of Transport it now Pete Hog-eson
do they really all ride Suzuki 800's in India? or 80's?

See I do read the threads :shifty:

What do I reckon well if everyone was as good as us there would be no need for any limits anywhere, its the Fuckwits who spoil it for everyone and isnt that life in general!

[Drunken Monkey]

Here's something from a Top Gear article:

Canada
In Ontario, Canada's most populous province, speed cameras (usually hidden in vans) were scrapped in 1995 after public anger over them helped the Conservatives win the election, with the provincial premier criticising each device as 'an Orwellian cash machine'. Road deaths fell after the scrapping and have kept falling since, much to opponents' chagrin, we presume.

The whole article here:
http://www.topgear.com/content/features/stories/Motorworld_Speed/01/

Of course, our LTSA knows better...(where are those /sarcastic html tags when you need them?)

[Blakamin]

Of course, our LTSA knows better...(where are those /sarcastic html tags when you need them?)
here...:tugger: