Is 250cc the best size to learn on??

[eliot-ness]

Being of the vintage class I can remember when the 250cc limit came in, (in the U.K.) At that time it was logical and, as there were few 250s on the market, low powered and slow, it worked. Fewer newbe deaths. However, times have changed. Competition has spawned high performance small bikes aimed at the new biker market. Does anyone agree that it's time for a change in the rules. How about a 500cc 45bhp limit. say, maximum two cylinders, 8500 revs. Top speed would be about the same. The extra weight, bigger brakes and tyres and wider power band would make them easier to ride, less likely to cause problems on corners. Just a thought.



Experience is something you get 10 seconds after you need it.

[jazbug5]

I didn't realise extra weight was helpful on corners?

[jazbug5]

Oh, do you mean something like the NSW restrictions..?
(Anyone gots the link?)

[Ixion]

I didn't realise extra weight was helpful on corners?

Depends. There's an optimum. Too light and the bike's skittish, little bumps or cross winds, passing traffic etc upset it too much. Also very light bikes the varying weight of riders, load etc can affect handling adversly. Too heavy can be bad too though, it can make the bike too hard to lug over for a light rider. Personally I find a heavy bike easier in the corners but a light one more fun. But for a learner easy is better than fun

[Oakie]

I wonder if the potential speed of the bike has much to do with newbie accidents? It would be interesting to see what ratio of accidents are caused by straight out excessive speed against those caused by poor road-craft or lack of experience.
I make this comment because last night I avoided an accident because I had a feeling the guy at the intersection was going to pull out infront of me and I had already started to position myself to avoid him before he even moved. (I even had time to wag my finger at him :nono: (index, not middle). Experience told me he might do it and road-craft put me in a safe place. A young'un even doing a safe speed may not have been able to avoid it.

[NC]

I didn't realise extra weight was helpful on corners?
Yeah I corner REAL well :D

[Jeremy]

No way. If you choose to buy a CBR250RR or NSR250 for your first bike that's your own problem. I'm all for equality for cars so we could ride any cc rating we want. Maybe a restriction on learners licenses to less than 35hp but that's all I go for. Your a long time on your restricted. Ifr you want to cut out the neat bikes for people on less than full than your going to have to drop the waiting time on taking your full test as well.

[Coyote]

Cars should be restricted to 50hp/600cc. That would be a laugh

Why should boy racers get away with big cars on their restricted. I can't even get a 400 when I get my restricted, and I have far more experience than most road users my age

[eliot-ness]

Hi Jeremy. The idea wasn't to cut out the 250 sports bikes. It was to increase the capacity limit. Bigger bikes are usually easier to ride without sacrificing performance.

[Deano]

I had an NSR250R (1987) which only weighed 126kg. It was bliss in the tight corners and I didn't mind the skitterish behaviour over the bumps at all - just wind the throttle on further and hold the bars tight to stop head shakes.

200kg SP-1 is quite a handful to throw around at times, and if it was only 150kg I would stick to a V-Twin for sure.

[Wolf]

Given a choice of any bike to learn on, I'd recommend something with enough mass to stabilise it without going OTT and buying a behemoth that is to massy to manoeuvre.

I reckon my LS400 "Savage" (Yeah, right) would be a good learner bike - it is not a rocket but you can make the open road speed limit, it has smooth power flow, good wide tyres with good grip on the road, brakes like a pro (as I discovered the last time someone u-turned in front of me without warning), a good mass - not too heavy but it doesn't skitter across the road when you encounter a light wind gust or get passed by a truck - it corners well and has a good balance.

I'm not saying its the ideal learning bike, but if I had had something like it when I was first learning to ride I would have had totally a totally different learning curve. My first bike, the RX125, was horrific - I would still find it a bastard of a bike - too light, pissy braking and road-holding.

I should have started on something like the LS400 and waited until I was more experienced before attempting to ride something as inherently dangerous as an RX125...

Only prob with the LS400 is being outclassed by smartarses on '82 GSX250s - and pretty much anything else :killingme

The question is: Is the aim to ride fast or to get your learning over in relative safety.

But no matter what the bike, the most important things are learning road-sense - knowing when to drop speed or initiate evasive action, where to position yourself and assess hazards - and knowing how your bike handles/accelerates/brakes under various road/climactic conditions.

Those things will save your bacon better than any restrictions on engine capacity - proper training and testing (to ensure the training has "sunk in") would be better than what we have now. But so long as the law says "buy an approved bike and go for it, call us if you survive" then I'll be pushing for more sensible "vehicle restrictions", such as those used by NSW, for bikes.

[maybe]

Horse power ratings or specified learner bikes would be a better idea.

[250learna]

Depends. There's an optimum. Too light and the bike's skittish, little bumps or cross winds, passing traffic etc upset it too much. Also very light bikes the varying weight of riders, load etc can affect handling adversly. Too heavy can be bad too though, it can make the bike too hard to lug over for a light rider. Personally I find a heavy bike easier in the corners but a light one more fun. But for a learner easy is better than fun

i see you have riden an fxr150 before :msn-wink: scary stuff on the motorway

[Beemer]

I learned to ride on an RG150 and probably wouldn't recommend it for learners! It was great because I didn't get bored with it once I got my full licence, but it could be a bit of a handful for someone not used to riding. A kickstart is a pain when you stall it in the middle of an intersection in Wellington (funny how drivers see you then, and yell all kinds of interesting things at you!) and the gears weren't that good low down. The BMW I have, although it is a 650, is legal for learners in the UK and Australia, as would be the Goose, and both are better bets. The Goose would be perfect - smooth gearbox with well-spaced gears, and the height and weight wouldn't intimidate a learner.

They should have a restriction on cars though, stop these learners buying high powered vehicles and writing themselves off. Mind you, it would make it difficult for sonny Jim to start learning when all Dad has is a V8 Commodore!

[James Deuce]

Mind you, it would make it difficult for sonny Jim to start learning when all Dad has is a V8 Commodore!

According to NZ Stats a little over 90% of households with teenage children have at least 2 cars. I don't think that argument holds much weight when you can buy a mid 90s saloon with 100,000km on the clock for about $4.5k-$6k. If it has been looked after it has 100,000km to go before you'll need major overhauls IF you look after it.

[eliot-ness]

I learned to ride on an RG150 and probably wouldn't recommend it for learners! It was great because I didn't get bored with it once I got my full licence, but it could be a bit of a handful for someone not used to riding. A kickstart is a pain when you stall it in the middle of an intersection in Wellington (funny how drivers see you then, and yell all kinds of interesting things at you!) and the gears weren't that good low down. The BMW I have, although it is a 650, is legal for learners in the UK and Australia, as would be the Goose, and both are better bets. The Goose would be perfect - smooth gearbox with well-spaced gears, and the height and weight wouldn't intimidate a learner.

They should have a restriction on cars though, stop these learners buying high powered vehicles and writing themselves off. Mind you, it would make it difficult for sonny Jim to start learning when all Dad has is a V8 Commodore!
Hi Beemer. My point exactly. My reason for posting the thread in the first place was that I've heard rumours that the guardians of safety are looking at a 150cc restriction. That would start another round of highly tuned, smaller bikes with an even less margin of safety. More accidents. More ammunition for the anti bike brigade. I'm not against young guys on fast sports bikes. Far from it. To me there's no better sight than a bike being ridden hard and fast through a series of bends. Nor do I object when they pass me as though I'm out on my tuned zimmer frame. The testosterone may have gone but the adrenilin still kicks in occasionally. I look at bikes long term. I may only have a few years riding left but I'd like to see motor cycling in a healthy state when I retire. Now for a comment that should bring a few cheers. Raise the licensing age for car drivers. 17yrs. minimum. Make a minimum of one year on a bike compulsory. (For those not handicapped) Provided both my kids with bikes at 15. The cars had to wait until they saved the cash. Ban driving of heavily modified cars until three years experience. Maybe a bit draconian but recent events have proved they are getting out of hand. Killing yourself is your own choice. The ones you take with you don't have that luxury. Right you young guys. let's hear a few ideas from you. It's your future were discussing.

[Wolf]

According to NZ Stats a little over 90% of households with teenage children have at least 2 cars. I don't think that argument holds much weight when you can buy a mid 90s saloon with 100,000km on the clock for about $4.5k-$6k. If it has been looked after it has 100,000km to go before you'll need major overhauls IF you look after it.
Which means kiddykins had better bloody look after it if he wants to continue learning to drive. Sounds fine to me.

Saw a dick walking round town with a "Drive it like you stole it" T-shirt and I wanted to smash his lights out. If that's his life-attitude and how he feels about treating vehicles on a road full of other people, I think killing him would be an overall improvement.

Drive(ride) it like you had to work your fucking arse off to pay for it.

Parents, take heed - make your kids buy their own vehicles and maintain them.

Mate of mine's son is having difficulty with learning how to ride his motorcycle - seems it needs work done on it to bring it up to standard and he hasn't got a holiday job so he's stuck taking the bus to school. One day he'll learn that it won't go without him earning money to fix it...

[Ixion]

..
Saw a dick walking round town with a "Drive it like you stole it" T-shirt and I wanted to smash his lights out. If that's his life-attitude and how he feels about treating vehicles on a road full of other people, I think killing him would be an overall improvement.
..


uh, if you stole would you not drive it very law abidingly and unobtrusively, so as to minimise the risk of drawing the attention of the law to yourself, and getting arrested before you are able to deliver the goodies to the fence ?

Know I would anyway.

[Wolf]

uh, if you stole would you not drive it very law abidingly and unobtrusively, so as to minimise the risk of drawing the attention of the law to yourself, and getting arrested before you are able to deliver the goodies to the fence ?

Know I would anyway.
You should be on the lecture circuit imparting that philosophy - most seem to be more interested in "joy-riding" than getting it to a chop-shop undetected (fewer pro thieves than "juvvies", I guess)

I guess you have a professional crim's mindset - you're not a politician perchance? :devil2:

The bastidges that killed a former colleague's ma-in-law on the Horotiu bridge whilst attempting to outrun the Law in a hot car didn't seem to be interested in "unobtrusive"...