Diesel oil engine flush?

[badman]

I have been thinking if it would be safe when doin an oil change to refill the bike with deisel oil. To my knowledge it just has a detergent in the oil to clean of the carbon. Would it pick up to much gunk and carbon posibaly blocking a well or damaging something. So would you strongly be against refiling with deisel oil and goin for say a 20km drive before draining it again and refilling with the correct oil?

[Quasievil]

I have been thinking if it would be safe when doin an oil change to refill the bike with deisel oil. To my knowledge it just has a detergent in the oil to clean of the carbon. Would it pick up to much gunk and carbon posibaly blocking a well or damaging something. So would you strongly be against refiling with deisel oil and goin for say a 20km drive before draining it again and refilling with the correct oil?

Why not just use Vegetable oil canola maybe?

seriously tho, why? what are you wanting to achieve here?

[badman]

The goal is to clean as much gunk and stuck on build up out of the motor... Because canola oil isnt made for a combustion engine, nor dose it have the cleaning agent additave that deisel oil has.

[LBD]

In my qualified opinion....don't. With the low viscosity, lack of viscosity and friction modifiers flamibility etc, you run the risk of causing much damage....The only occasions I have done this is when doing an oil change on a very cold marine engine...add about 25% diesel an run for 1/2 a minute, to make the oil runny and easier to pump out.

[blackdog]

i'll betcha that 'gunk' is all thats holding yer engine together. better not flush it away :lol:

[Flip]

Are you talking diesel (fuel) oil or diesel (lubricating) oil?

If you ran your motor with diesel fuel oil in the sump you would probably find the wearing surfaces of your cam shaft and cam followers in the bottom of your sump pretty dam quickly.
If you ran with diesel lubricating oil, say a low ash mixed fleet lubricant why would you want to drain such a high quality lubricant after only 20 km.

[Mully]

These guys: http://www.therevcounter.com/mechanics/33170-flush-out-old-engine-oil.html seem to think you can use diesel oil tl flush the engine - but dont' run the engine, just flush it through.

Note: I am not suggesting you do this - I'm just trying to assist with information.

If you decide to go for it, please let us know what happen....

[LBD]

I will repeat my warning....DO NOT DO THIS....If you think your engine needs a flush/Birthday replace the oil with the correct oil, go for a good run then replace the oil again....although this would not normally be required.

If yo do an oil change on an engine that is cold and has not been started, you can drain the oil, leave the drain plug out, then pour a little diesel in the filler to flush out dregs from the bottom of the sump. Ensure all diesel is drained before replacing plug in sump.

[scumdog]

These guys: http://www.therevcounter.com/mechanics/33170-flush-out-old-engine-oil.html seem to think you can use diesel oil tl flush the engine - but dont' run the engine, just flush it through.

Note: I am not suggesting you do this - I'm just trying to assist with information.

If you decide to go for it, please let us know what happen....

I've used diesel fuel (two or so litres poured over the area needed) to flush crap out of an engine or two (V8) after a manifold swap or similar where debris has fallen into the guts of the motor, then put on new filter and filled with new oil, never had any problems later.

[Quasievil]

The goal is to clean as much gunk and stuck on build up out of the motor... Because canola oil isnt made for a combustion engine, nor dose it have the cleaning agent additave that deisel oil has.


Yeah I realise this, I was taking the piss.
I work for Mobil and they tell us use your intended oil and run for a shorter period flush then use the same oil on top again.

Mobil 1 Racing 4 t for example. He He

[badman]

Thanks il keep away from the deisel oil. I think il just use an additave from repco then.

[CookMySock]

I've done a couple of engine oil flushes with diesel fuel and even rode the bike around the front yard somewhat. The engine warmed normally and I could not detect any difference with the engine running on engine oil or diesel fuel (as a lubricant.)

I would strongly suggest you did not open 'er up on the open road doing this. Either only idle it, or else ride it very quietly around the yard, or maybe venture around the block on it. Total engine running time maybe about 20-30 minutes, 3/4 of that time idling in neutral, and the other 1/4 puttering around at very low throttle levels while exercising the gearbox.

I would have no real concerns doing another diesel fuel flush, provided precautions were taken.

Again, there was no detectable complaint, noise, or otherwise, from the engine at any time. The engine sounded just like it had proper oil in it.

edit: dont put any oil additives of any type in motorcycle engine oil.

Steve

[Quasievil]

Thanks il keep away from the deisel oil. I think il just use an additave from repco then.

No no no, leave additives out of it...........sheesh had this discussion on another thread and the idiot did it anyway.
If you are buying a decent oil the additive package is complete, the moment you add a after market additive you will instantly fuck it and the whole oil chemistry
Dont I repeat DONT do this.

And p.s dont flush you engine with Diesel Fuel either ffs

[Owl]

This looks like a fun thread!

:corn:

[Vern]

Hi. when I was a apprentice back in the early 60's we would flush out car engines with a 50/50 mix of oil and kerosene and then you only brought it up to operating temp at idle and did not rev it at all. Vern

[CookMySock]

This looks like a fun thread! :corn:It is a common question! "Should I flush my engine?"

I only flush an engine for a very good reason. Last time (a month ago) I bought a little pitbike and its' clutch was slipping reeeeel baaaaad so heres me thinking "fucked clutch". So I strip it, but noooo its' plates are in mint condition.. Waaaaait a minute, wtf is this way ultra slippery shit oil in it.... So I reassemble, drain, flush with diesel, and refill with 10W40 motorcycle engine oil and it's mint. Someone stuck car oil in it didn't that.. It was obviously a disaster..

Steve

[doc]

My HD manual recommends "Only use the specified oil, however if it is not available a quality Diesel engine oil is acceptable but must be replaced as soon as the specified oil is available.Honestly

[blackdog]

i've had a think about this and changed my mind. i reckon it's a really good idea to ride 30-40km with your engine full of diesel. just be certain that you are redlining in each gear before changing up to make really sure all that gunk is removed

let me know how it goes.......

[Quasievil]

i reckon it's a really good idea to ride 30-40km with your engine full of diesel.

Yeah its a brilliant idea, can you you tube it to ??

[bogan]

It is a common question! "Should I flush my engine?"


only if its a hyo, and even then you would want a pretty big crapper to handle it :blink:

[blackdog]

Yeah its a brilliant idea, can you you tube it to ??

:lol: and make sure the mics turned on coz i wanna hear it

[LBD]

Reading Badmans original post, I was assuming he was refering to using Diesel (Fuel oil)...But I now realise he was refering to Diesel Engine oil in his petrol engine (Bit slow I know)....I still maintain it is best not to do this. Diesel engine oil does contain more detergents and dispersants to prevent soot molicules from agglomerating into larger particles. (Large soot particles are abrasive and cause wear)

The problem with using a very high detergent oil is when it is used in a worn petrol engine. There are gum and other residues in the ring grooves, stem seals etc. While it sounds like a good idea on the surface, using a high detergent oil can lead to loss of oil control, (oil consumption and burning oil)

[blackdog]

Reading Badmans original post, I was assuming he was refering to using Diesel (Fuel oil)...But I now realise he was refering to Diesel Engine oil in his petrol engine (Bit slow I know)....I still maintain it is best not to do this. Diesel engine oil does contain more detergents and dispersants to prevent soot molicules from agglomerating into larger particles. (Large soot particles are abrasive and cause wear)

The problem with using a very high detergent oil is when it is used in a worn petrol engine. There are gum and other residues in the ring grooves, stem seals etc. While it sounds like a good idea on the surface, using a high detergent oil can lead to loss of oil control, (oil consumption and burning oil)

refer post #5

[Woodman]

I remember in the olden days when the jap import cars started coming in, a few garages were wrecking motors by putting a flush through them. Because a lot of the cars had not had many (any) oil changes and gunk had built up inside the engine, when a flush was added it was loosening all the gunk and then blocking the oil strainer. Result was a lot of run bearings.

[The Pastor]

diesel oil IS motorbike oil.

[pete376403]

When I was racing speedway, the oil of choice was castrol r40 (or Shell Super heavy) both vegetable oils that had very high lubrication properties, smelled beautiful and cost a lot. (it's also gummy dirty shit if you leave it in a motor for any length of time) .
I wrote to Shells technical department giving the specs of the jawa 4v motor (briefly - all roller bearing crank, total loss lube system, high compression, air cooled, methanol fuel) asking their recommendations, they said, while the castor based was the first choice, a single weight diesel engine oil such as rimula x50 would be just as good. And it was, I ran the same crank for two seasons without any trouble.

[Flip]

I've used diesel fuel (two or so litres poured over the area needed) to flush crap out of an engine or two (V8) after a manifold swap or similar where debris has fallen into the guts of the motor, then put on new filter and filled with new oil, never had any problems later.

Yes but most of the V8s are a low stress old school motor. Even so would you run a modern more highly stressed vehicle with any diesel in the sump?

This will be the first time I have ever agreed with Quasievel, Don't put some dumb ass chemicals into modern motor oils. Modern oils are bloody good; they don't need the other chemicals and nobody can tell you even that the additives are compatible with the oil's chemistry.

The only time I would ever consider using a flush is in a very old say vintage motor that had had been gummed up by age and lack of oil changes.

If you have your heart set on doing a oil flush just do a hot short oil change with a relatively low cost oil.

[Motu]

rimula x50 would be just as good. .

Rimula R3X is Jaso and Alison C-4 rated,and most diesel oils have a petrol API rating as well.

[CookMySock]

I've also had a diesel engine running a 50/50 mixture of 10W40 and ATF. Again, it didn't bother it in the slightest. Well, it did give me a bad fright when the ATF leak kept filling the crankcase more and more until the diesel "took off". It took a firm stomp on the brakes to calm it down, and a very quiet drive home trying to keep the revs down, lol. After I fixed the ATF leak (vacuum pump), I drained the engine oil and refilled with clean oil and boy did it run really clean after that! My guess is it gave the ring grooves a really good flush out, coz it started and idled from cold much better than it had in ages!

I'd have no hesitation in dropping half or more of the engine oil and carefully filling with diesel fuel, only to the full mark. Ride it, but only very quietly for 5 mins at a time followed by a 5 min break. Take great care not to overfill it, and don't rev it hard or labour it.

Flushing it with engine oil I think is pointless.

Steve

[blackdog]

I remember in the olden days when the jap import cars started coming in, a few garages were wrecking motors by putting a flush through them. Because a lot of the cars had not had many (any) oil changes and gunk had built up inside the engine, when a flush was added it was loosening all the gunk and then blocking the oil strainer. Result was a lot of run bearings.

just doing an oil change was wreckin plenty of the early import turbos exactly the same way

[blackdog]

I've also had a diesel engine running a 50/50 mixture of 10W40 and ATF. Again, it didn't bother it in the slightest. Well, it did give me a bad fright when the ATF leak kept filling the crankcase more and more until the diesel "took off". It took a firm stomp on the brakes to calm it down, and a very quiet drive home trying to keep the revs down, lol. After I fixed the ATF leak (vacuum pump), I drained the engine oil and refilled with clean oil and boy did it run really clean after that! My guess is it gave the ring grooves a really good flush out, coz it started and idled from cold much better than it had in ages!

I'd have no hesitation in dropping half or more of the engine oil and carefully filling with diesel fuel, only to the full mark. Ride it, but only very quietly for 5 mins at a time followed by a 5 min break. Take great care not to overfill it, and don't rev it hard or labour it.

Flushing it with engine oil I think is pointless.

Steve

don't forget the microphone..........

[Quasievil]

and most diesel oils have a petrol API rating as well.


Sooooooooo, what does that supposed to mean?

All good oils have a API rating (American Petroleum institute)

S = Petrol followed by another letter noting the current standard i.e. a M

C= Commercial grade with another following i.e a J

Some oils have both a S and a C rating.

[terbang]

I have often run detergent oil intended for turbo diesel engines in motorcycle engines. It does have a cleaning effect on the internals of the engine.

[Flip]

I have often run detergent oil intended for turbo diesel engines in motorcycle engines. It does have a cleaning effect on the internals of the engine.

All motor oils since the 1960's have detergents of one type or another. Light diesel oils have a good strong detergent package. Yes they will clean your motor, but so will any modern motor oil.

I only just remember the days in the early 60s when dad used to take the tappet cover of our Morrie 8 and clean off all the grime from the inside. You dont see this now days, the oils dont let this sludge form.

From memory the only supplier of a non detergent oil is Penrite and they make these oils espcially for vintage vehicles with leather of felt oil seals. The API rating SC was the first of the detergent oils (Cutting technology in the 60's). From SC to SG the oils all contain detergents and from SH to what ever the oils are up to now they went to low metal detergents because the metals were poluting the latest euro spec cats.

[Squiggles]

seems to work well enough when it's absolutely necessary (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11717185&postcount=329)

[Woodman]

I'd have no hesitation in dropping half or more of the engine oil and carefully filling with diesel fuel, only to the full mark. Ride it, but only very quietly for 5 mins at a time followed by a 5 min break. Take great care not to overfill it, and don't rev it hard or labour it.

Flushing it with engine oil I think is pointless.

Steve

Go on then..............

[CookMySock]

Go on then..............If you read back, you will see that I have done it a number of times.

Steve

[Woodman]

If you read back, you will see that I have done it a number of times.

Steve

can you please post the make and model and rego number of your bike, so I don't ever purchase it.

[Pixie]

Bike magazine ran an kawasaki 600,on the rev limiter,with no oil or coolant in it to see how long it would last.
It ran till the carbon can caught fire and they had to stop it.It didn't actually seize.
I think putting anything in the engine is not going to kill the engine instantly.
Why don't you use Caltex Delo 400 multigrade as your regular oil? lots of people do this.

[Quasievil]

OMG.........Why do people think they know it all to the point of discarding manufacturer recommendations and Oil companies advise.

[CookMySock]

can you please post the make and model and rego number of your bike, so I don't ever purchase it.If you read back like I suggested, you would see that I had never done it on a road bike. I don't think you are interested in what was said at all - I think you are only interested in an opportunity to be a derogatory dickhead. You would be far better served to take note from people who had done things rather to show off your foolish mouth.

Steve

[Quasievil]

I think you are only interested in an opportunity to be a derogatory dickhead. You would be far better served to take note from people who had done things rather to show off your foolish mouth.

Steve

Now thats some funny shit coming from you

[blackdog]

You would be far better served to take note from people who had done things rather to show off your foolish mouth.

Steve

as per QE's post, you would be far better served to take note from people who manufactured the equipment and developed the lubricants :rofl:

[CookMySock]

As usual, KB idiots ignore any actual posted experiences by others, focus on adding weight to their own opinion in the quest of purporting it as fact, and take any opportunity to take rational discussion and turn it into derogatory remarks. It's your character on display, or rather lack of it. Get a clue.

Steve

[blackdog]

I'd have no hesitation in dropping half or more of the engine oil and carefully filling with diesel fuel,

well, good luck with those warranty claims.....

[avgas]

Using diesel oil in an motorbike engine is black magic.
As is running ethanol mix.......
Fricken voodoo.
Hell riding a motorbike with 100hp is INSANE according to some here.
So clearly KB members are all knowing and all seeing.

My 2c, done it, works good - trick is to only mildly flush / run. Don't do more than 50km on the stuff (depending on the engine - some I would only idle the stuff for 30 seconds then drain).
Works really good on small block japa's who collect stuff in the smallest nooks. Especially tired old engines.

However don't be a knob about it - I told my friend, he put new filter in, then put diesel oil in and when I came to drain the diesel oil from it for him, he didn't under-stand why I threw out the filter and asked him for a new one........he said it was new, I replied he had just stuffed it and should have left the old one in.

[avgas]

OMG.........Why do people think they know it all to the point of discarding manufacturer recommendations and Oil companies advise.
You may be pleasantly surprised to what the pump manufacturers state in regards to not flushing during service........ However sometimes not all information trickles down into the lowly motorbike user guide......

[Flip]

Bike magazine ran an kawasaki 600,on the rev limiter,with no oil or coolant in it to see how long it would last.
It ran till the carbon can caught fire and they had to stop it.It didn't actually seize.
I think putting anything in the engine is not going to kill the engine instantly.
Why don't you use Caltex Delo 400 multigrade as your regular oil? lots of people do this.

The diesel has a couple of problems. Firstly new low sulphur diesel is a crap lubricant. When it is cold it’s a bad lubricant hot it is as thin as water and looses any ability to lubricate.

Fuel dilution usually damages the cam followers on modern motors first. The thin hard facing on the follower needs a good strong oil film to keep it off the nice relatively soft cam shaft. The moment the cam touches the follower well it’s the beginning of the end for these parts.

I do run a mixed fleet lube in almost all my vehicles. The Valvolene 15w40 is CI/SL oil so it is a dam good quality lubricant, it’s relatively low cost and it's available locally in 10 and 20 litre containers. My opinion is well good fresh oil is my friend.

I have flushed a few vintage motors out will all sorts of things from Whyns motor flushing stuff to hydraulic oil. But these were old low tek probably half stuffed motors that were full of sludge and we were trying to get them going after they had been sitting for decades. You should never have to flush a modern motor that is in service. There is nothing in the sump that shouldn’t be there already, and the last little bit of dirty oil is of no importance.

IMHO if you want to put fuel into the sump of your Hayobang and take it for a ride, well you go for it. Those Hayobangs have a wonderfull reputation for quality and are basically a bullet proof motor. But I won't be doing it to any of my precious motors.

[jonbuoy]

I run diesel rated oils in my CB750 as it allegedly gives better protection for old school flat tappet engines. Wouldn´t dream of doing it on a modern bike engine. No good will come of putting fuel oil in your lube oil :no: .

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/oil_summary.html

[FruitLooPs]

Fuel dilution usually damages the cam followers on modern motors first. The thin hard facing on the follower needs a good strong oil film to keep it off the nice relatively soft cam shaft. The moment the cam touches the follower well it’s the beginning of the end for these parts.


So true, my old gsxr has lost some hardening on a couple of the cam followers and scored the camshaft. It also had leaky float valves in the damn carbs that freaking hydrolocked the engine and bent a rod. :angry:

[pete376403]

The diesel has a couple of problems. Firstly new low sulphur diesel is a crap lubricant. When it is cold it’s a bad lubricant hot it is as thin as water and looses any ability to lubricate.

Fuel dilution usually damages the cam followers on modern motors first. The thin hard facing on the follower needs a good strong oil film to keep it off the nice relatively soft cam shaft. The moment the cam touches the follower well it’s the beginning of the end for these parts..

Are you suggesting diesels don't have cam followers and can therefore survive on crap lubricant? OMG, why did I waste several years of my life doing an apprenticeship at GGH on Cat tractors.
Diesels also get blowby, leading to carbon contamination of the oil. What do you think the blackness (of used oil) is? BTW, blackness is good, it means the carbon is in suspension in the oil so it can be removed at oil change time, rather than building up inside the engine.

I've worked on Cat D8s where the oil came out totally black, yet the inside of the crankcase, etc wiped clean.

If you really want to know how your oil is doing, Goughs do oil analysis. They can tell you exactly what is in the oil, and where is most likely came from.

[Flip]

I run diesel rated oils in my CB750 as it allegedly gives better protection for old school flat tappet engines. Wouldn´t dream of doing it on a modern bike engine. No good will come of putting fuel oil in your lube oil :no: .

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/oil_summary.html


That Valvolene stuff I use is a low ash which meand it is a light diesel oil, and it has passed the API testing as both a petrol and light diesel oil.

[JMemonic]

Are you suggesting diesels <SNIP>

Actually go back and reread, there seems to be two schools of though and discussion in the thread, one is about using diesel oils in petrol engines as a flush, the other is about using diesel (the fuel) as a flush. So unbunch your panties and go back a little, I would suspect that on the fuel (diesel) side of things Flip might know a little more than a mechanic (sorry not trying to take anything away from you there but I know what he does for a crust). He has pointed out he actually runs a mixed fleet oil, you know one suitable for light diesel and petrol engines.


If you really want to know how your oil is doing, Goughs do oil analysis. They can tell you exactly what is in the oil, and where is most likely came from.

This has been recommended before by in other threads, its a tad costly for most of us to get it done on every oil change though.

[avgas]

You should never have to flush a modern motor that is in service. There is nothing in the sump that shouldn’t be there already, and the last little bit of dirty oil is of no importance.
Sorry I call BS here.
What happens in a wet sump.........
Common causes in motorbike clutch slip are?.......
New engines are just the same as old ones. In fact some are worse as the alloy needs "bedding in" in some situations.
I have seen all sorts come out in first oil changes in new bikes. A flush can only benefit this process.

[Flip]

Sorry I call BS here.
What happens in a wet sump.........
Common causes in motorbike clutch slip are?.......
New engines are just the same as old ones. In fact some are worse as the alloy needs "bedding in" in some situations.
I have seen all sorts come out in first oil changes in new bikes. A flush can only benefit this process.

Sorry you are being a bit criptic for me.

Are you talking about running in oil?

[LBD]

If you must flush your engine.....and there is a case for that (used oil remains in the oil galleries, pump, cooler etc) then... Drain the old oil, change the filter, fill with new correct spec oil and go for a short ride to operating temps drain and refill. If you want to be pedantic, change the filter again. (In a hydrailic circuit some 25 % of the oil is in the pumps/pipes/and cylinders)

Do not use diesel a specific diesel engine oil in your petrol bike. Friction modifiers in the Diesel oil may cause clutch slip. Use the OEM recomended oils

Do not run diesel instead of oil to "Wash" the engine. The low viscosity will not prevent metal contact. When you drain the flushing diesel, some will remain in the galleries, pump, cooler etc. meaning when you refill with the correct oil, it will be diluted with any remaining diesel left in the system

Do change oil on or ahead of schedule. If different filters are available, go for the finest Micron rating available.

35% of the soot produced in an engine (Including those black smoky diesels) goes out the exhaust, the remaing 65% goes into the oil.

Valve gear is usually the first to fail when there is a lubricant problem.

Soot particles are nearly as hard as diamond. Soot particles agglomerate and can form wedges leading into the cam/follower interface, wiping the lubricant away starving the interface and causing rapid wear.

[nallac]

My HD manual recommends "Only use the specified oil, however if it is not available a quality Diesel engine oil is acceptable but must be replaced as soon as the specified oil is available.Honestly

I know a guy that runs Diesel oil in his Sporty,its done over 160k....so it seems to work in the ole low tech harley engines....
But then again H-D says you can use its as a back up untill you can get in and buy some over price H-D branded oil.

From LBD's post above,"Do not use diesel a specific diesel engine oil in your petrol bike. Friction modifiers in the Diesel oil may cause clutch slip."
Most likely why H-D's can run/use it cause of the seperate primary drive..

[The Pastor]

there is so much confusion in this thread its brilliant!

Two things people are talking about here

1. mixing diesel (fuel from the petrol station pump) with normal oil for an engine flush.

2. Running a bike on diesel oil. Oil made for diesel engines - NO diesel in the oil. (imo its pretty much the same as bike oil)

I think a few posts on here are mixing the two up.

[DEATH_INC.]

There is soooo much misinformation in this thread too. Who here can tell me the chemical composition of a diesel engine oil and a bike oil? And what the differences are? ( shaddup Quasi! )

[Quasievil]

A Really good tip is to also add a tea bag (new) per litre of oil to the engine oil, the tanins in the tea enhance the oil quality and bring a soothing effect to the lubrication qualities, but dont use Bell etc, use Dilma, its the best.
I got a mate that has been doing this for years and he swears by it

[Owl]

A Really good tip is to also add a tea bag (new) per litre of oil to the engine oil, the tanins in the tea enhance the oil quality and bring a soothing effect to the lubrication qualities, but dont use Bell etc, use Dilma, its the best.
I got a mate that has been doing this for years and he swears by it

Wouldn't it be easier to just spoon some loose tea in through the oil filler?

[imdying]

OMG.........Why do people think they know it all to the point of discarding manufacturer recommendations and Oil companies advise.Swingarm on my bike has a sticker that says 36psi front and 42psi rear, with or without a passenger, handles better at lower pressures... what of it?

[Quasievil]

Wouldn't it be easier to just spoon some loose tea in through the oil filler?


Good point, but I prefer the convenience of the tea bag personally

[Quasievil]

Swingarm on my bike has a sticker that says 36psi front and 42psi rear, with or without a passenger, handles better at lower pressures... what of it?

do you expect me to have an answer to that mate?

[imdying]

do you expect me to have an answer to that mate?Of course not, it's just an example of the manufacturers recommendations not always being the best choice. As far as lubricants go, no 85 GSXR750 manual could ever recommend the pick (for it) of the current crop of lubricants, they didn't even exist when it was written!

[LBD]

There is soooo much misinformation in this thread too. Who here can tell me the chemical composition of a diesel engine oil and a bike oil? And what the differences are? ( shaddup Quasi! )

The single biggest difference is...(and this is a big generalisztion)...High performance motorcycle oils will be synthetic...Most common Diesel oils are mineral based. (another good reason not to mix the two as they can react and turn jelly like)

Mineral based oils are refined out of the ground. Synthetic oils are POA's (Polyalphaolifins).....there are also part synthetic or Isosyn oils, which are a blend of the two. Because a full synthetic is fully manufactured, it is not subject to the contaminants or performance limitations of a mineral oil.

The viscosity of a synthetic remains more constant as the temperature of the oil changes.

The structure of a synthetic base is engineered to suit an application...lower internal friction means less friction in an engine, meaning less fuel (or more power). I have read an article that concluded the extra cost of a synthetic is more than offset by the fuel savings..(Mining fleet)

Either mineral or synthetic oil requires an additive package, which makes up some 20% give or take, of the final mix.
Additives include....Detergents, friction modifiers, anti foaming agents, corrosion inhibitors, viscosity modifiers, dispersants, anti wear, anti scuffing etc....

Tea leaves are only added to synthetics for colouring.

[Woodman]

If you read back like I suggested, you would see that I had never done it on a road bike. I don't think you are interested in what was said at all - I think you are only interested in an opportunity to be a derogatory dickhead. You would be far better served to take note from people who had done things rather to show off your foolish mouth.

Steve

I think someone needs to add a bit of fibre to their diet.

Anyway, what i was trying to say was that their is no way I would ever put diesel in my bikes crankcase. Nor would I recommend it to anyone on the basis of experience on one pitbike.

Listen to Quasi he knows stuff

[Flip]

There are 2 sorts of diesel lube oils.

The ones that you can buy at Repco which are usually "low ash" referring to the sort and strength of chemicals used for the detergents. These almost always have dual Petrol and Diesel ratings. These are light diesel lubricating oils. The oil industry call these when sold in larger workshop pack sizes mixed fleet lubes.
The ones you can't usually get at repco are high ash content oils these are heavy diesel oils, like train and big ass ship motor oils. These are not petrol motor oils. Too thick and have the wrong additive package. I would not run these in a petrol motor.

Most Petrol oils have dual S and C classification, like Mobil 1, that has been tested and is approved as both a light diesel lube oil and as a petrol motor oil. Mobil 1 is marketed as a very high quality performance petrol lube oil (and it is), but Mobil don't advertise that the stuff can go in a dirty old diesel motors. Because then Mobil 1 is also a dirty old diesel motor oil and why would anybody pay $20 a liter for dirty old diesel motor oil. The oil companies think this confuses the buying public and dilutes Mobil's advertising message and they are right.

I buy the best quality oil I can get at the best price. I use a lot of motor oil, I change my oils very often, I try to use only one oil in almost all my vehicles and it an oil I can get at locally any repco-super cheap store. I won't buy some obscure specialized motor oil, because if I need some on a trip its going to be impossible to find and I won't pay $20 a liter for a product that I don't need. I usually buy a Valvolene motor oil in 10 and 20 liter commercial containers that has a high API SI rating but also is approved for use diesel motors. It's marketed as a commercial mixed fleet lube. If I do all 3 oils in my V8 landrover it takes 11 liters of motor oil and about 3.5 liters of gear oil, and I do this every time I drive through deep water. The Valvolene only cost me $4.50 a liter, the fact that it is also a good car and bike oil is just a bonus. To me the cost benefit ratio of these oils is very high.

[LBD]

There are 2 sorts of diesel lube oils.

The ones that you can buy at Repco which are usually "low ash" referring to the sort and strength of chemicals used for the detergents. .

Ash has no direct relation to additive package, "ash" refers to the residue left when a portion of the oil is burnt, low ash will leave little residue and high ash will will leave noticably more residue....indirectly, the additives package will be adjusted to manage the impurities (ash forming) in the oil.

High ash oils leave greater deposits inside your engine than low ash. Ash and in particular sulfated ash can be acid forming and corrosive in your engine. Mineral oils are higher ash oils.

Industrial diesel oils will tend to be high ash mainly due to the economies of scale....ie if I was to buy 3 million liters of synthetic oil or premium low ash mineral oils per annum, instead of regular mineral oil, I would have a to face an accountants inquisition.

[pete376403]

The single biggest difference is...(and this is a big generalisztion)...High performance motorcycle oils will be synthetic...Most common Diesel oils are mineral based. (another good reason not to mix the two as they can react and turn jelly like)

Mineral based oils are refined out of the ground. Synthetic oils are POA's (Polyalphaolifins).....there are also part synthetic or Isosyn oils, which are a blend of the two. Because a full synthetic is fully manufactured, it is not subject to the contaminants or performance limitations of a mineral oil..

Not trying to be picky or anything but... where do the chemicals that synthetics manufactured of come from?

Oil threads, eh? Countries have gone to war over less.

[jonbuoy]

There is soooo much misinformation in this thread too. Who here can tell me the chemical composition of a diesel engine oil and a bike oil? And what the differences are? ( shaddup Quasi! )

Don´t know the exact differences but I was under the impression it was the ZDDP content being lowered in modern engine oils that was the issue with cam and follower wear? Maybe Quasi can shed some light?

[LBD]

Not trying to be picky or anything but... where do the chemicals that synthetics manufactured of come from?.

The raw materials for PAO's are same as mineral oil but are processed completely different. I am no chemist so to quote wiki....A polyolefin is a polymer produced from a simple olefin (also called an alkene with the general formula CnH2n) as a monomer. For example, polyethylene is the polyolefin produced by polymerizing the olefin ethylene. An equivalent term is polyalkene; this is a more modern term, although polyolefin is still used in the petrochemical industry.





Don´t know the exact differences but I was under the impression it was the ZDDP content being lowered in modern engine oils that was the issue with cam and follower wear? Maybe Quasi can shed some light.

ZDDP...Zinc is an anti scuffing agent...popular in hydraulic oils.(Cat specify a minimum 900ppm Zinc (ZDDP) in hydraulic oil for pump longijevity..ZDDP is only a contributing factor if the oil/machinery design fails to maintain an oil film thickness between moving components.

[Quasievil]

I posted this on another oil thread, still relevant so enjoy

Im not an engineer but have access to them and I have been extensively trained by Mobil etc.

The official word is this, for bikes use bike oil (not car oil) for cars use Car oil not bike oil and so on............easy eh !
Mobil certainly wont endorse any car oil in bike scenario, because some engineer some where decided it was ok.

For your bike Magicmonkey I would have thought (from our range) a Mobil Extra 4T 10w-40 a semi synthetic.

But there are plenty of options out there.

If I can explain the differences between Mineral and sythetic oils for you in a easy easy way, think of it like this

The oil they use to make your engine oil (the raw oil) is called Basestock, Basestocks have different groups, group 1 to group 5, each group has different levels of quality the higher grades are used for synthetics and the lower grades are used for mineral based oil as well as a host of other things.
These are extracted in a refinery tower , lower basestock grades are taken from the lower/mid part and higher basestock grades from the top, the top tower basestocks are generally gas.

<a href="http://s262.photobucket.com/albums/ii104/Quasizxr/?action=view&current=oil-refining-diagram.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii104/Quasizxr/oil-refining-diagram.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


So know you understand this

the higher base stocks are gas and the PAO (polyalpholefin) is used to make synthetic oil, the advantage of this PAO as a basestock is this.........All the molecules are exactly the same size, please think of a row of marbles in a line all the same size)

The lower Basestock grades disadvantage is this.........all the molecules a different sizes (think of a beach ball, a volley ball, a rugby ball, and a few umbrellas)

now imagine this

Between the two surfaces of your engine, i.e. the piston and the cylinder, the temperature between these surfaces is very very hot (naturally) so to stop them fusing together and melting (and a heap of other things) we cool the engine with coolants etc but most importantly OIL

now Imagine this

To keep the two surfaces oiled so they stay lubricated and run over each of there surfaces in the most efficient way, which of the two oils will do it better ?????

1. A row of marbles of the same size?
2. Abeach ball, a volley ball, a rugby ball, and a few umbrellas

Clearly the answer is number one !!! (Mobil 1 read later)

Ok so with this smooth efficent running of your engine what are the advantages?

Higher Viscosity index.........reduces engine wear at temp extremes
Low temp performance...... Oil gets to where its needed faster
Lower volitilty .................... Reduced oil consumption
Increased Oxidative stability...... slows down the rate of oil thickening

so these give you avantages like, less Friction.......less friction means less energy........means less gas used......higher efficency......longer engine life (the list goes on and on but you get the point)

So why Mobil 1, it is the worlds leader in Synthetic technology.........we can legally say that as its true!!

Since the Castrol vs Mobil case in the states where Castrol decided to market Mineral oil as Synthetic (they won WTF) many companies now offer a synthetic option which is highly refined beach balls rugby balls and umbrellas, they are legally allowed to do this.

Mobil have stuck to the PAO for its base stock (I will note however some Mobil synthetics have a small group III content to balance the additive packages)

Anyway I hope that helps you understand oil a bit better.
www.qmoto.co.nz

[Flip]

Ash has no direct relation to additive package, "ash" refers to the residue left when a portion of the oil is burnt, low ash will leave little residue and high ash will will leave noticably more residue....indirectly, the additives package will be adjusted to manage the impurities (ash forming) in the oil.

High ash oils leave greater deposits inside your engine than low ash. Ash and in particular sulfated ash can be acid forming and corrosive in your engine. Mineral oils are higher ash oils.

Industrial diesel oils will tend to be high ash mainly due to the economies of scale....ie if I was to buy 3 million liters of synthetic oil or premium low ash mineral oils per annum, instead of regular mineral oil, I would have a to face an accountants inquisition.

No it’s exactly the same. The oil industry call these low and high ash oils because the ash is what is left after the emulsifiers in the oil is burnt but it is the metals which are part of the emulsifiers oxidise to form the ash as in metal oxides. The oil and the organic components convert to carbon dioxide and water. As I said low ash oils are petrol and light diesel oil motors. High ash oils are for large diesel- bunker, HFO oil ship motors. High ash oils are very high in emulsifiers because they have to cope with very dirty bunker fuel oil. You won’t find these oils in use anywhere but in shipping industry and very big heavy motor industries.

If you don’t believe me burn some clean fat and some hand washing soap and see what you get. The soap is molecule made with sodium hydroxide and fat. The metal sodium at one end that likes water and a tail made of fat likes oil. When you burn these the fat converts to carbondioxide and water and the metal (sodium) oxidises to Sodium oxide which is an ash. Oils with lots of emulsifiers are called high ash because ash is a lot easier to say than emulsifiers.

[roadracingoldfart]

Many of you know me and what i do in life (fuck all ) lol.
I have used both diesel oil and pure pump diesel in cars and bikes that have suffered from a oil and coolant mixture issue.
Pump diesel is good for a few mins or more of idle to clean / loosen the sludge left by the moisture , flush and then run a part ratio of (so called) correct oil and diesel oil for a drive at medium revs to allow the filter to collect the balance the pump diesel loosened.
Then spin a new filter on and fill with oil till next scheduled change.
Every car service i do at work starts with putting a can of engine flush in and i have litterally done this thousands of tmes without a problem.

I have raced bikes now for many decades and since the mid 80s i have used a Castrol oil that is rated to both petrol and diesel engines, its also what we use for LPG dedicated Falcons. As it happens its also mandatory for the likes of FPV falcon V8s and Turbo inline 6s .
It was during the 80s the oil that was recommended by Honda and i have only ever suffered engine damage on the racebike when i was persuaded to use a so called proper motorcycle oil , i ran a crank main .

Never going to make that mistake again........

My 2 cents worth.

Paul.