View Full Version : Question about torquey big Vs
varminter
1st May 2010, 20:19
Ok, the bike has been at the bike shop for three weeks, in that time they have not been able to duplicate the lurch/cutting out problem. The techo at Suzuki told me that "big v twins are a bit lumpy on low rev's" or words to that effect. The bike shop agreed. They also said they will up the idle speed to 1200 and adjust the lean mixture on low rev's. The problem was cutting out occasionally, usually going slow pootling up to lights etc. It got more lurchy (no such word) when I wound up the throttle from under 1000rpm to 1100. That's when it went GDUMPH and tossed me into the road.:sick:
So, what do big V twin riders say. Oh, yes I know there are much bigger one's out there but this is big to me.
NighthawkNZ
1st May 2010, 20:32
Low speed low get they can feel a bit as you say lurchy or feel lumpy (one of the characteristics of a vtwin) Me old vtr use to just cut out at the lights... that was a good sign for a services and tune. Get it done and it was fine after that... :)
While most vtwins can happily have the torque to take off in 2nd or 3rd but easier in 1st, moral just ensure you are in the correct gear around town.
dipshit
1st May 2010, 20:40
What fuel are you running it on?
I ask because when I got my SV1000, at first it popped and stuttered at times. But after a few tank fulls of petrol (either 95 or 98) it came right.
I mentioned to the shop when it went in for its first service about the popping and stalling in the first couple of hundred ks. They mentioned that they had filled it up with 91 originally as their drum of 95 was empty at the time.
My Sv thou started doing something similar ( not the chucking off thou ) . Fixed with a cupful of meths in the tank. Water in the fuel
Are these carbed or injected? TPS and other do hincky sensors can upset an injected bike,but a carbed bike should run smooth at low speeds....unless they are set up real lean for emission reasons.If you want to see how a V twin runs at low speeds check out a Harley....they idle a hell of a lot lower than 1200rpm.
AllanB
1st May 2010, 22:41
A bit off ball this one but ............. is your chain adjusted correctly?
I've noticed on some bikes that if the chain is loose and you are poodling along very slowly as you describe you'll sometimes get backlash and jerking in the manner you describe. It's like the chain is slightly out of sync with the sprockets.
They should idle at MIN 1200rpm, you need to check out stromtrooper.com as you are having the normal issues with your DL. Mine was terrible new, the 2nd one was even worse than the first but easily fixable. My 2nd bike just would stall when stopping and it needed an accurate TBS. Very easy to do and costs nothing. Other things like fitting a TRE will help, yanking the secondaries and possibly Power Commander? I already offered to fix it for you for nothing, but you would need to ride yourself up here to Whangarei
davebullet
2nd May 2010, 07:58
On the SV650 it pays to do 2 things:
1. Throttle position sensor adjustment. This delivers more fuel just off idle which smooths the applicaiton of the throttle - removing the jerkiness. Factory was set to deliver more fuel about 3,000 rpm on mine which made the bike splutter off lower revs
2. Install a timing retardation eliminator. I don't know on the stroms / 1000 motors, but the 650 motor retards timing in the first 3 (?) gears. I found by restoring the timing advance in all gears (Except when in neutral), the bike is smoother off the line in 1st and through the gears. I also reckon I get 3-5% fuel economy improvement.
PM me or let me know here if you want posts to the relevant topics above.
TripleZee Dyno
2nd May 2010, 08:07
Ok, the bike has been at the bike shop for three weeks, in that time they have not been able to duplicate the lurch/cutting out problem. The techo at Suzuki told me that "big v twins are a bit lumpy on low rev's" or words to that effect. The bike shop agreed. They also said they will up the idle speed to 1200 and adjust the lean mixture on low rev's. The problem was cutting out occasionally, usually going slow pootling up to lights etc. It got more lurchy (no such word) when I wound up the throttle from under 1000rpm to 1100. That's when it went GDUMPH and tossed me into the road.:sick:
So, what do big V twin riders say. Oh, yes I know there are much bigger one's out there but this is big to me.
Had an 02 DL back in 02 and after a few 1000k it got worse and worse, similar symptoms to yours, Tuneup, adjustments, clean things, new things. The best thing I did was fit iridium plugs. Have since had a few others through the workshop and iridium plugs plus a tune with Teka Tuner sorts them out. I think its a fuelling issue and Teka Tune is probably what helps the most, iridiums are better at firing inconsistent mixtures so they would be masking the real problem. My personal bikes get iridiums whether they need them or not. Worth a try.
cheers
The best thing I did was fit iridium plugs. Have since had a few others through the workshop and iridium plugs plus a tune with Teka Tuner sorts them out. I think its a fuelling issue and Teka Tune is probably what helps the most, iridiums are better at firing inconsistent mixtures so they would be masking the real problem. My personal bikes get iridiums whether they need them or not. Worth a try.
cheers
Ever had an issue with iridiums TripleZee? Just curious, as my 1050 killed a set in less than 10,000km. Signs of excessive heat, with discolouration on the insulator etc.
banditrider
2nd May 2010, 09:34
A bit off ball this one but ............. is your chain adjusted correctly?
I've noticed on some bikes that if the chain is loose and you are poodling along very slowly as you describe you'll sometimes get backlash and jerking in the manner you describe. It's like the chain is slightly out of sync with the sprockets.
This is something I've also noticed on my VTR - and it's something easy to check...
Also, any of the issues mentioned (for me anyway) always tend to be at low revs and most often are when a down-change is stuffed up. So maybe you could have a bit of a think about gear change technique varminter? Maybe down change at slightly higher revs (say 2-2,500 revs) rather than pootling up to a stop???
varminter
2nd May 2010, 09:44
Thanks Laava for the offer but not sure I'd be up to a ride that far, I have to panel beat this old body after every hour to get the kinks out.
These are injected.I adjusted the chain recently too.
Seen the info' on the power commander & the teka box, perhaps I'll go that way, when I save the money.
I check out stromtroopers site too, the yanks seem to have plenty of money to spend.
I've never had any missing or farting (with the bike) only this cutting out very occasionally. I use 91 so I'll try the top shelf stuff.
I'm assuming the bike shop here know about the earlier model problems, I even gave them the Suzuki technical info' #35 for the problem which lists the checks to do. They said they have checked it on a dyno.
I set the idle at 1100 as it was less than 1000 before, a mistake I think, should have set it to 1200.
I'm stoked that there are so many replies. Thanks guys:Punk:
Ohand banditrider and I'll stop pootling too.
Jantar
2nd May 2010, 10:07
Laava has already mention the TBS, which is the best thing that you can do for a Strom. You don't say which model it is, but it appears the K4 and K5 models both had issues with the standard mapping. In some cases the CPU needed replacing, but usually just mapping it correctly fixed the problem.
My K6 never needed touching, and was perfectly acceptable, but in comparisom my L0 is marvelous. It pulls from lower revs smoothly and is overall a much nicer bike at low speed. Top gear is even usable at an indicated 100 kmh which on the K6 wasn't.
The L0 uses less fuel at highway speeds, but is thirstier when commuting.
dipshit
2nd May 2010, 11:13
Ever had an issue with iridiums TripleZee? Just curious, as my 1050 killed a set in less than 10,000km. Signs of excessive heat, with discolouration on the insulator etc.
I am curious about iridium plug life too. They come standard on my GSXR and the service scheduled calls for their replacement at 12,000 ks. That is also what the regular plugs are meant to be replaced at on my last bike as well. I will be replacing the iridiums on the GSXR at the suggested 12k service. Just wondering if it is overkill for iridium plugs..?? (some people have had them in other bikes for 50,000 ks plus)
dipshit
2nd May 2010, 11:15
I use 91 so I'll try the top shelf stuff..
Let us know if it makes any improvement.
I am curious about iridium plug life too. They come standard on my GSXR and the service scheduled calls for their replacement at 12,000 ks. That is also what the regular plugs are meant to be replaced at on my last bike as well. I will be replacing the iridiums on the GSXR at the suggested 12k service. Just wondering if it is overkill for iridium plugs..?? (some people have had them in other bikes for 50,000 ks plus)
12,000km seems really low and I would've thought 30,000-50,000km for iridiums. The service interval on my stock CR9EK is 20,000km and they last well, but not such a good run out of the CR9EIX. Go figure?:confused:
Still, I only paid $11.50+ for the iridiums, so I'm not crying about it.:no:
[QUOTE=varminter;1129738168]
Seen the info' on the power commander & the teka box, perhaps I'll go that way, when I save the money.
Spend $80 on a TRE first, IMHO. Made more difference than the rest put together.
cowpoos
2nd May 2010, 16:23
Ok, the bike has been at the bike shop for three weeks, in that time they have not been able to duplicate the lurch/cutting out problem. The techo at Suzuki told me that "big v twins are a bit lumpy on low rev's" or words to that effect. The bike shop agreed. They also said they will up the idle speed to 1200 and adjust the lean mixture on low rev's. The problem was cutting out occasionally, usually going slow pootling up to lights etc. It got more lurchy (no such word) when I wound up the throttle from under 1000rpm to 1100. That's when it went GDUMPH and tossed me into the road.:sick:
So, what do big V twin riders say. Oh, yes I know there are much bigger one's out there but this is big to me.
Have you got aftermarket pipes?
... It got more lurchy (no such word) when I wound up the throttle from under 1000rpm to 1100. That's when it went GDUMPH and tossed me into the road.:sick:
So, what do big V twin riders say. Oh, yes I know there are much bigger one's out there but this is big to me.
Plenty of bikes will cut out if you try to drive from those sorts of revs! Turn up the idle a fraction and use your clutch and some some revs.
I've always gone -1 on the front sprocket to help with its 'lurching' which can be seen as fueling issues, whilst attempting to ride at lower revs.
In saying that it does sound like you have 91-itis too
mrchips
2nd May 2010, 18:33
From what i understand these engnes are tuned quite lean.
fwiw i would feather the clutch at those low rpms. If i tried to give my SV throttle from 1100rpm she'd buck like a mule + i think using 95 gas or above) is a given.
varminter
2nd May 2010, 19:19
Great advice here. Only got the regular pipes.
Looking forward to getting back on the road, the push bike's ok and it gets me fit but I can only overtake old ladies on zimmer frames....and some of those are a challenge.
CookMySock
2nd May 2010, 19:57
A bit off ball this one but ............. is your chain adjusted correctly?
I've noticed on some bikes that if the chain is loose and you are poodling along very slowly as you describe you'll sometimes get backlash and jerking in the manner you describe.Yes.
They should idle at MIN 1200rpmYes. I use 1500rpm.
Vtwins are really sensitive to these things. Though at the best of times they are snappy and snarly at low revs - thats part of their character.
Steve
mashman
2nd May 2010, 20:23
The RSV stopped stalling at the lights once it had been remapped... I just thought it was an Italian thing... good luck
I found that a K&N Air filter, removed the snorkel, seemed to smooth out the bike a lowish revs. I have a roundabout, at Clarks beach intersection, that the bike used to jerk and lump around in first. After I fitted the filter, and removed the snorkel, it was heaps better. This could be coincedence, but it was worth a mention to you ,I feel.
TripleZee Dyno
3rd May 2010, 07:27
Ever had an issue with iridiums TripleZee? Just curious, as my 1050 killed a set in less than 10,000km. Signs of excessive heat, with discolouration on the insulator etc.
Always had a good run out of them. The worst thing they ever did was nothing. Does seem a bit odd that yours overheated. I always use the reccomended heat range unless there is a good reason to change. The ones in my present bike have done 22000k. Havent looked at them since I put them in, if I find some spare energy I'll pop them out and have a squiz.
scumdog
3rd May 2010, 07:44
Never had that sort of issue with any of my V-twins although they can be a tad 'jerky' until warmed up.
And 1200rpm is about 300+rpm higher than they idle at when warmed up.
Never had a fuel injected V-twin though.
CookMySock
3rd May 2010, 08:14
You might richen the idle jets 1/4 turn and see if that does it.
Steve
The SV/DL1000 is known to be very lumpy at low revs, doesn't like it at all. Get those revs up as previously suggested.
The earlier version ie the TL had some issues at low rpms in particular the stumbles at around 3000,i fitted a atre and reflashed my ecu with a yosh box,on the tre thing theres 2 types,auto and not,get the auto.Wouldnt have the idle set at anything under 1200 on my TL fwiw.
BuzzardNZ
3rd May 2010, 10:58
As stated by others here, I agree that you need the following:
1) Ensure the TPS is set correctly.
2) Fit a TRE.
3) Don't ride the bike at such low revs.
I got a TEKA tune on my SV and also have done the TPS and TRE, also got a BMC filter, desnorkeled and after market pipes. All these mods will help smooth things out, well it did for me anyway.
Jantar
3rd May 2010, 14:26
You might richen the idle jets 1/4 turn and see if that does it.
Steve
Hey, that could be a simple fix. Where are these mystical idle jets found on a bike with no carburettor?
Hey, that could be a simple fix. Where are these mystical idle jets found on a bike with no carburettor?
Havent come across any on the TL,still its only been 10 years no doubt i will come across em at some stage.
javawocky
3rd May 2010, 17:24
Ok, the bike has been at the bike shop for three weeks, in that time they have not been able to duplicate the lurch/cutting out problem. The techo at Suzuki told me that "big v twins are a bit lumpy on low rev's" or words to that effect. The bike shop agreed. They also said they will up the idle speed to 1200 and adjust the lean mixture on low rev's. The problem was cutting out occasionally, usually going slow pootling up to lights etc. It got more lurchy (no such word) when I wound up the throttle from under 1000rpm to 1100. That's when it went GDUMPH and tossed me into the road.:sick:
So, what do big V twin riders say. Oh, yes I know there are much bigger one's out there but this is big to me.
As has been said...
My idle is set to about 1500 in winter and I turn in down in summer to around 1200. 1000 is going to see you embarris yourself lots and probably get thrown off if you are not expecting the rear to suddenly stop as it cuts out. (Tip: Idle screw head sticks out quite clearly on the left hand side of the frame near the back of the tank)
You will have to adjust your riding style, don't cruise round town bellow 3000. You can sometimes let it drop to 2500 but you have to be very gentle on apply more gas otherwise it will choke.
Recenty I aquired the skill of blipping the throttle on downshifts (I know I know, I stepped up from a RG150) and the bike is much happier and settled - especially when pushing it - and it sounds better too.
Seriously, on the left hand bar is a lever, it's called a clutch lever. It is designed to not only aid in smooth gear changes but also to avoid your V-Twin from 'Lurching' around town at sub-recommended RPMs.
They only change you need to make is the one in your left hand. The clutch lever has a near infinite level of adjustability, it is not an On and Off switch.
Jantar
4th May 2010, 10:29
....They only change you need to make is the one in your left hand. The clutch lever has a near infinite level of adjustability, it is not an On and Off switch.
I do hope you're not suggesting riding the clutch on a VStrom? They have a known clutch shudder issue which is made worse by that method.
A TBS is the proven fix. No parts needed, and only takes a small amount of time.
I do hope you're not suggesting riding the clutch on a VStrom? They have a known clutch shudder issue which is made worse by that method.
A TBS is the proven fix. No parts needed, and only takes a small amount of time.
I'm not talking about riding in the friction zone for a kilometer, no.
But appropriate use of the clutch is paramount to riding a V-Twin.
imdying
4th May 2010, 10:53
What's a TBS? Throttle body sync?
Jantar
4th May 2010, 11:28
What's a TBS? Throttle body sync?
:yes: :yes:
imdying
4th May 2010, 12:23
Between the TBS, TPS, and idle adjustment, you should be able to improve it for nothing but an hours effort (and maybe a little torx driver if you don't already have one to fit the TPS sensor adjustment screw).
rocketman1
4th May 2010, 20:38
I'm not talking about riding in the friction zone for a kilometer, no.
But appropriate use of the clutch is paramount to riding a V-Twin.
I agree with Lurch, if you are going so slow that you are surching / getting chain snatch - pull the clutch in .
Mike SV idles at about 30kmh in first gear, road works can be problem, but I just use the clutch.
This is all part of the joy and character of riding a big V twin.
Also keep the revs above 4000 as much as possible, it doesnt do V twin anygood farting around labouring in any gear under this revs.
Old Steve
4th May 2010, 20:45
My Sv thou started doing something similar ( not the chucking off thou ) . Fixed with a cupful of meths in the tank. Water in the fuel
If you suspect water in the tank, add a little (50 ml, maybe 75 ml, to a tank) iso-propyl alcohol. It's very good at absorbing water and is misible with the fuel - meths may just go into the water and you still have water (albeit mixed with meths) in the tank. Iso-propyl alcohol will be available at some servos, they buy it and sell it off in small bottles. Just ask for it until you find it.
varminter
5th May 2010, 19:41
I've never felt it lurching or straining or laboring at any throttle setting that I used, has always been sweet. As I said the only problem started out as cutting out usually going fairly slow either round a corner or perhaps approaching lights etc, usually going through neutral . I suspect the mistake I made was increasing the idle by too small an amount, i.e from under 1000 to only 1100 when 1200-1250 would have been better. I feel that this caused the bike to stop then start again causing a lurch....well that's my guess, pick up the bike tomorrow so I'll keep you posted
Thanks all for your input.
scumdog
5th May 2010, 20:16
If you suspect water in the tank, add a little (50 ml, maybe 75 ml, to a tank) iso-propyl alcohol. It's very good at absorbing water and is misible with the fuel - meths may just go into the water and you still have water (albeit mixed with meths) in the tank. Iso-propyl alcohol will be available at some servos, they buy it and sell it off in small bottles. Just ask for it until you find it.
Yeah, I tried a mixture of meths and petrol with a bit of water in a plastic coke bottle, if you swirled it around it seemed to mix up but after a few minutes it separated out again and settled into different layers..
paturoa
5th May 2010, 20:28
Go to www.stromtrooper.com and do a search on chudder - is it like that?
Go to www.stromtrooper.com and do a search on chudder - is it like that?
I awhile back lent my Yoshbox to a guy off the TL forum in the states,he has a mate whos a member on that forum,some pissing about with said yoshbox later it did the rounds of a few other members,strange in that it shouldnt have worked with the Stroms ECU but apparently it did.I cant explain why but those who used it swore it did.Go figure.
As I said the only problem started out as cutting out usually going fairly slow either round a corner or perhaps approaching lights etc, usually going through neutral . I suspect the mistake I made was increasing the idle by too small an amount
My SV thou has also cut out during gear shifts when the idle was set too low and I've been agressive with my throttle closing.
BigOne
6th May 2010, 22:28
Another thing not yet mentioned, that can be a problem on FI Suzukis, is the clutch switch.
If it gets dirty, it can be the scource of many fuelling issues, esp. stumble, and refusing to rev well. When it gets dirty, the ECU defaults to ; get you home' settings. The circuit affects many aspects of fuel injection control. It's a regular issue with the GSX1400, esp. in Europe, with long winters and salty roads. fwiw.
Whats a TBS?
Jantar
6th May 2010, 22:40
...
Whats a TBS?
Throttle Body Sync. It goes a long way to making the throttle response a lot smoother at low revs.
dipshit
11th May 2010, 17:22
12,000km seems really low and I would've thought 30,000-50,000km for iridiums.
Well I changed them today as part of it's 12k service. It doesn't look like they needed changed though as they looked ok and the gap is within spec and still virtually the same as the new ones going in.
Sensei
11th May 2010, 18:13
My Iridium plugs have done 49,000ks & still run sweet as , looking abit used now as to be expected . So have some ready to put in this weekend .
arj127
11th May 2010, 18:21
I fitted my SV with a TRE/gear indicator unit and the bike ran way smoother. Less stalling and much less backfiring on deacceleration.
Brian d marge
11th May 2010, 18:37
Well I changed them today as part of it's 12k service. It doesn't look like they needed changed though as they looked ok and the gap is within spec and still virtually the same as the new ones going in.
on a separate subject how did u manage to get a clear photo like that , LOTS of info on that plug!
Stephen
Rogue Rider
11th May 2010, 18:38
My Suzuki did it after I debaffled. Never did recover, took it to two dealers and a techo expert. The problem was solved when I got a triumph lol.
98tls
11th May 2010, 18:40
My Suzuki did it after I debaffled. Never did recover, took it to two dealers and a techo expert. The problem was solved when I got a triumph lol.
Anyone with any expectation of anything by removing the baffles deserves a Triumph.lol.
dipshit
11th May 2010, 19:13
on a separate subject how did u manage to get a clear photo like that
Well I have been a keen photographer for a few years know my way around a camera. ( http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=1631 ) Although for this one I just stuck my pocket camera into macro mode and centre focus. Had some soft sunlight from the side and made sure the flash was off. Uploaded a 100 % crop.
LOTS of info on that plug!
Indeed, more than I could see with the magnifying glass. The plug gap is .85 mm for scale. I think those spots are carbon... not aluminium. There are no shiny white spots visible to the eye or with the magnifying glass anyhow.
Morcs
11th May 2010, 19:16
On the TLS, i found that removing the flappy actuator valve thingy in the bottom of the airbox helped with the lumpyness down low.
dipshit
12th May 2010, 19:10
Ever had an issue with iridiums TripleZee? Just curious, as my 1050 killed a set in less than 10,000km. Signs of excessive heat, with discolouration on the insulator etc.
Just had a couple of thoughts on this.
Are you sure you got the same heat range as your previous plugs..???
And what octane fuel are you running the bike on...???
Just had a couple of thoughts on this.
Are you sure you got the same heat range as your previous plugs..???
And what octane fuel are you running the bike on...???
Ok it was actually discolouration on the metal bit, but anyway, yes the heat range was the same "CR9EK - CR9EIX" and fuel is 95.
The word on the Speed Triple forum is that they prefer the stock plugs. I think the later 08+ use CR8EK plugs, whether relevant or not.
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