Watts rating on speakers?

[soundbeltfarm]

whats all the stuff on car speakers about the wattage about?
i got some for the van and on box it says peak 300w and then something else about 60w
so is that just saying they are 60w speakers?
also do the wires have to be hooked up in a certain way or can i just hook up the wires upo to any terminal. eg i have the 2 wires for say left rear and can they go on any terminal on speaker or is there like a positive and negative? i just hooked them up and they run ok.
cheers

[davereid]

The wattage is the amount of power the speaker can handle, before it starts to damage itself. To make speakers, and amps for that matter sound like they are better than they are, manufacturers rate them all sorts of ways, peak and PMPO being favorites. The only one with real cred. is good old power in watts, normally called RMS power for AC stuff.

Your speakers will run either way around. But they ARE designed with a POS and a NEG, it will written on them somewhere, or the terminals may be different sizes. If you get it right, the speakers will operate in phase, and will sound better.

[SMOKEU]

Forget about PMPO. It's a fictitious figure that cheap audio hardware is rated by the manufacturers to grossly overstate the actual power output. RMS is the true power output.

[Delerium]

200w is peak power, in terms of volume it does not mean much. Greater volume is determined by greater RMS value. RMS is basically 'the level of heat that will be generated by the device if using Direct current (like from a batter). Speakers use Alternating current signals (like your house mains is AC).

In short RMS is the value you look at, peak power doesn't mean much, but its a bigger number so used for advertising.

[bogan]

yeh well said above, PMPO don't mean shit, RMS values are only ones worth looking at. The good thing is is that PMPO are usually about 10x more, so easy to tell the difference. Amplifiers usually give thier rating in RMS, and crap speakers normally give it in PMPO.

[p.dath]

The wattage is the amount of power the speaker can handle, before it starts to damage itself. To make speakers, and amps for that matter sound like they are better than they are, manufacturers rate them all sorts of ways, peak and PMPO being favorites. The only one with real cred. is good old power in watts, normally called RMS power for AC stuff.

Your speakers will run either way around. But they ARE designed with a POS and a NEG, it will written on them somewhere, or the terminals may be different sizes. If you get it right, the speakers will operate in phase, and will sound better.

+1. Agreed.

While the speakers will run conncted up either way, you want to consistently connect the "positive" wire to the same terminal each time. Otherwise the speakes may move their cones 180 degrees out of phase, which effectively opposing speakers cancel each other out, meaning in theory it doesn't sounds as good.

[Laava]

PMPO sounds better

[soundbeltfarm]

cheers for the help.
if i swap my wires around on each speaker will a dumb arse like me be able to hear the difference if they are running right?
also are amps really worth it for driving speakers?
i have a rear set of speakers in the van already and want to put another pair further back. do i just run a loop from the first set of rears to the further back set.? or do i just hook my further back rears into the normal rear set so it would look like a figure 8?
sorry if this dont make sense .
and will that be ok on my head unit.

[bogan]

cheers for the help.
if i swap my wires around on each speaker will a dumb arse like me be able to hear the difference if they are running right?
also are amps really worth it for driving speakers?
i have a rear set of speakers in the van already and want to put another pair further back. do i just run a loop from the first set of rears to the further back set.? or do i just hook my further back rears into the normal rear set so it would look like a figure 8?
sorry if this dont make sense .
and will that be ok on my head unit.

yeh that doesn't make a lot of sense, don't go doubling up speakers on same wires though, changes the impedance. You probly don't need an amp as most modern head unit will supply plenty of power. Also i found in my van, the acoustics are terrible, the road noise at speed almost drowns out the rear speakers and my front ones have bugger all bass. Though I have an 90 L300 with bugger all sound deadining in the floor and panels, but you prolly want to consider such things when setting up yours.

[p.dath]

if i swap my wires around on each speaker will a dumb arse like me be able to hear the difference if they are running right?


This dumb arse can't hear the difference. But speaker wires usually have a stripe on them, and the speaker terminals often have something different about one of their connecting terminals. So just make sure you connect the stripe to the same terminal each time.


also are amps really worth it for driving speakers?

Wow, tough questions. Obviously an amp can drive bigger speakers. Amps often provide better low down frequency response (that mans better bass). Amps often have lower distortion than the head unit at a comparable volume output.

But if your only ever listening to your head unit at less than half power and your happy with the sound then an amp isn't going to make much of a difference.


i have a rear set of speakers in the van already and want to put another pair further back. do i just run a loop from the first set of rears to the further back set.? or do i just hook my further back rears into the normal rear set so it would look like a figure 8?
sorry if this dont make sense .
and will that be ok on my head unit.

It is starting to sound like you need an amp (sounds like you want more volume). So will this be a total of 4 or 6 speakers in the vehicle (are there some front speakers)?
Note that you may find it easier to just replace the rear speakers with bigger/better quality units, and drive them with an amp. You might be able to get away with a new head unit with a higher power output as well (something with 4x30W for example).

Basically you can wire the speakers in parallel or series. But you need to consider the ohm rating of the speakers, and what the head unit was designed for, or the amp if you have one. For example, if you connect them in parallel and drop the ohm's down to 2 from 4, then you can only run the head unit/amp at half load or you risk "cooking" it.

I think you'd be best popping down to a specialist car audio shop, and making sure you get an amp and speaker combination to match rather than risk an expensive mistake.

[soundbeltfarm]

yeah the van does have a fair amount of noise at speed and i agree it masks alot of the music.
i had alook at some sound deading stuff called dynamat but it will be super expensive to do the whole van.
i thought about putting down some underlay and carpet on top but not sure how much this would block out road noise.
hey thanks eveyonr for all the help.
all the ohm stuff is way over my head

[p.dath]

yeah the van does have a fair amount of noise at speed and i agree it masks alot of the music.
i had alook at some sound deading stuff called dynamat but it will be super expensive to do the whole van.
i thought about putting down some underlay and carpet on top but not sure how much this would block out road noise.
hey thanks eveyonr for all the help.
all the ohm stuff is way over my head

Dynamat is pretty much one of the best solutions out there. I've only seen it used on the inside panels of cars (mostly doors), but I guess in a van your just as likely to get road noise from below.

Sounds insulating a van is probably going to be difficult. I suspect th eunderlay would work reasonably well. Just thinking laterally, I'd be tempted to go to a carpet store and ask what noise insulating options they have.

[bogan]

I just got some cheap washable carpet from bunnings, so i can load my bike in wet or dirty or whatever. Sound deading properties probly crap, but it'd be a mission to retrofit a van with decent sound properties anyway.

[CookMySock]

if i swap my wires around on each speaker will a dumb arse like me be able to hear the difference if they are running right?Yes. Play a passage of music with a smooth continuous bassline, and swap the polarity of one speaker. One polarity setting will have quite an obviously louder and deeper bass to it. Bass is very sensitive to phase.


also are amps really worth it for driving speakers?Yes. Amps make a big difference, particularly so with a quality amp, speakers, and headunit. Most low quality amps (in headunits) are more focussed on maximum WRMS output, as this is a very sales-sensitive parameter, whereas no one really cares about lack of bass extension or muddied midrange from output stage phase errors.


i have a rear set of speakers in the van already and want to put another pair further back. do i just run a loop from the first set of rears to the further back set.? or do i just hook my further back rears into the normal rear set so it would look like a figure 8? [...] and will that be ok on my head unit.Not if you want to beat the shit out of it - you will heat the headunit up badly and probably break it.

Rear speakers are just for fill anyway. Your main soundstage should be up front. A set of 6.5 component speakers with crossovers and a quality 50WRMS will be great.

Steve

[peasea]

yeah the van does have a fair amount of noise at speed and i agree it masks alot of the music.
i had alook at some sound deading stuff called dynamat but it will be super expensive to do the whole van.
i thought about putting down some underlay and carpet on top but not sure how much this would block out road noise.
hey thanks eveyonr for all the help.
all the ohm stuff is way over my head

If you can stretch the budget get Dynamat, it's the shizz.

[cowpoos]

200w is peak power, in terms of volume it does not mean much. Greater volume is determined by greater RMS value. RMS is basically 'the level of heat that will be generated by the device if using Direct current (like from a batter). Speakers use Alternating current signals (like your house mains is AC).

In short RMS is the value you look at, peak power doesn't mean much, but its a bigger number so used for advertising.


No...RMS is short for Root Mean Squared...it is a calculation. Used for describing a single value...for a function that is constantly changing. A far far more accurate one than PMPO [Peak Music Power Output]...which I believe to be completely fictitious.

In the Interests of volume...Increasing RMS is not the most efficient way of increasing volume...buy speakers based on sensitivity is...sensitivity is rated in decibles [db] and is rated at one watt and one metre...so a speaker with a sensitivity of 85 db is Half the volume of a speaker with the sensitivity of 95 db. The normal range of speaker senitivity is 89-95 db.
Those ratings are worked out with one watt and one metre...now if we double the watts supplyed [to two watts] and read the result on a Sound pressure level meter..it would increase the speakers volume by 3 db...and so forth...so if your 90 db speaker is feed 32 watts, it would be producing 105db at one metre. out of interest...add another speaker...you only get another 3 db. But you can quickly see the gains in volume you can achieve with a more efficient speaker.

If theres some you don't quite get...ask.



Not if you want to beat the shit out of it - you will heat the headunit up badly and probably break it.



Steve

Steve you really do still talk through a hole in your arse...why do you try and give people bad advise all the time...you seem to just make shit up out of the blue!!


I'll answer that question for you...

It debends on the impedence or load as its call...rated in Ohms of the speakers and impedence from the head unit...you can run as many speakers as you like of a head unit or amp without damage to the unit if you do not exced the Ohms ratings. If your head unit is rated at 4 ohms...and you have two 4 ohms speakers...You can wire them in series and achive a 8 ohms load...which will have the effect of less distortion [by halving the load] and better for the amp. do not wire them in parallel...as you will double the load to 2 ohms and will over heat the amp in the head unit. parallel is when the positives of both speakers are wired to the same sorce and negatives to the same source. Series is when source positive is wired to positive of first speaker and the negative side of that speaker is wired straight to the positive of the second speaker...and negative of that speaker is wired straight to the source on the negative...simple :)

[CookMySock]

Steve you really do still talk through a hole in your arse...why do you try and give people bad advise all the time...you seem to just make shit up out of the blue!!


I'll answer that question for you...

It debends on the impedence or load as its call...rated in Ohms of the speakers and impedence from the head unit...you can run as many speakers as you like of a head unit or amp without damage to the unit if you do not exced the Ohms ratings. If your head unit is rated at 4 ohms...and you have two 4 ohms speakers...You can wire them in series and achive a 8 ohms load...which will have the effect of less distortion [by halving the load] and better for the amp. do not wire them in parallel...as you will double the load to 2 ohms and will over heat the amp in the head unit. parallel is when the positives of both speakers are wired to the same sorce and negatives to the same source. Series is when source positive is wired to positive of first speaker and the negative side of that speaker is wired straight to the positive of the second speaker...and negative of that speaker is wired straight to the source on the negative...simple :)Just to clear up some confusion, all power amplifiers are rated "safe" at some load impedance. The problem with most automotive headunits is they operate in a bridged configuration so as to get a marketable power output level, so they are generally not "2 ohm safe" and almost definitely not at sustained high listening levels.

As for the suggestion that an 8 ohm load would be suitable - this will push the output stage well out of its' operating point causing a large distortion, and on top of that you will get a quarter of the power available (not half) P=V*V/R. Half the volts = quarter the power. Not useful.

The real answer to your question is "yes it will work reasonably well wired either in series or parallel, but it will sound like shit if you pump it, which you are probably going to, but it may not work for long."

Cowshit, you are a rude loudmouth dolt. :finger:

Steve

[cowpoos]

Just to clear up some confusion, all power amplifiers are rated "safe" at some load impedance. The problem with most automotive headunits is they operate in a bridged configuration so as to get a marketable power output level, so they are generally not "2 ohm safe" and almost definitely not at sustained high listening levels.

As for the suggestion that an 8 ohm load would be suitable - this will push the output stage well out of its' operating point causing a large distortion, and on top of that you will get a quarter of the power available (not half) P=V*V/R. Half the volts = quarter the power. Not useful.

The real answer to your question is "yes it will work reasonably well wired either in series or parallel, but it will sound like shit if you pump it, which you are probably going to, but it may not work for long."

Cowshit, you are a rude loudmouth dolt. :finger:

Steve

No you twit...the source will see 8 ohms and produe half the power...you could try and argue that each speaker will get quater. but that would be a long winded argument!
And your calculation proves my point ya dork... P=V*V/r [power = Voltage x Voltage / resitance] eg: 12v x 12v = 144 / 4ohms [resistance] = 36 or 12v x 12v = 144 / 8ohms [resistance] =18 ....which last time I check was HALF of 36????

So you just get your facts right matey!!

And as for distortion...your wrong....the lower the load, the harder it is for a Amp to drive speakers without distortion.

[CookMySock]

Alright, maths aside, the question was asked is it a good idea, and will it work. Yes, it will work, yes it will operate at a lower power in series, no its probably not smart wired in parallel if you are going to punish it - simple.

The question was asked about phasing - yes if you hook them up backwards you will lose 3/4 of your bass. It will be easy to just check the wiring polarity is correct, but it will be difficult and time-consuming to do a proper phase check (never rely on the +- markings for proper polarity.

Stop being a cunt cowshit.

Steve

[davereid]

No you twit...the source will see 8 ohms and produe half the power...you could try and argue that each speaker will get quater. but that would be a long winded argument!
And your calculation proves my point ya dork... P=V*V/r [power = Voltage x Voltage / resitance] eg: 12v x 12v = 144 / 4ohms [resistance] = 36 or 12v x 12v = 144 / 8ohms [resistance] =18 ....which last time I check was HALF of 36????

So you just get your facts right matey!!

And as for distortion...your wrong....the lower the load, the harder it is for a Amp to drive speakers without distortion.

A perfect amplifier could be considered to have a zero ohms output impedance in series with a resistance, typically 4 or 8 ohms.

We will consider a 4 ohm output impedance, and assume our "perfect" amplifier has a terminal voltage of 10 volts.

Case 1 : An infinite load resistance - 10 volts is developed across the load, but no current flows. You have 10 x 0 = 0 watts power to listen to, and no power produced or dissipated.

Case 2 : A zero ohm load resistance. Your perfect amplifier sees only its own 4 ohm series load so 2.5 amps flows. 25 watts of power is dissipated in the amplifier, and no power is dissipated in the load. You have zero watts to listen to, and a very hot amplifier. At least for a short time.

Case 3 : A four ohm load resistance. Your perfect amplifier sees 8 ohms, and a current of 1.25 amps flows. 12.5 watts of power is produced, with half it it available to the speakers, the other half dissipated in the amplifiers internal resistance, i.e. 6.25 watts for each.

Case 4 : An eight ohm load resistance. Our amplifier sees 12 ohms and 0.833 amps flows. A total of 8.333 watts is available, 5.55 for the speakers, and 2.77 dissipated inside the amplifier.

An amplifier that sees its design load will produce full power, and will (should!!) have been designed to be stable and safe at that power output.
A lower resistance load will increase the amplifiers internal heat dissipation. This is bad.
A higher load will reduce the power the amplifier can deliver.

[Ferkletastic]

Cowpoos (and Davereid above) explained it correctly, DB on the other hand talks a lot of half informed shit.


Phasing doesn't cause you to 'lose 3/4 of your bass' it will cause frequency response issues across the spectrum as sound waves interact with each other causing amplification and attenuation (and other exciting psycho-acoustic effects). Basically it'll sound shit yo. Wire your speakers correctly, it's really not that hard as has been mentioned, one wire has a stripe, the other doesn't, stripe to - side, no stripe to + side = happy ears.

[CookMySock]

Phasing doesn't cause you to 'lose 3/4 of your bass' it will cause frequency response issues across the spectrum as sound waves interact with each other causing amplification and attenuation (and other exciting psycho-acoustic effects). Basically it'll sound shit yo. Wire your speakers correctly, it's really not that hard as has been mentioned, one wire has a stripe, the other doesn't, stripe to - side, no stripe to + side = happy ears.I have fixed a number of car installs where the sound system sounded like a stone in a tin can just because one speaker was wired backwards. After a while you can pick it just by listening to it.

On high-end installs we would set the the system up correctly and then do phasing tests. More than once we found phasing errors that completely wrecked the audio quality, and not on cheap shit gear either.. One alpine amp and speakers, and another denon and energy speakers.

ferkle talks a lot of abusive crap. This is a forum, not a fight club. Cut it out.

Steve

[Headbanger]

Cowpoos (and Davereid above) explained it correctly, DB on the other hand talks a lot of half informed shit.
.

Really?

I find that hard to believe......:shutup:

[Ferkletastic]

Actually, those guys below are right.

Like a wise man once said, winning an arguement online is like winning gold at the special olympics. Sure you won, but you're still a retard.


Accidentally took myself a bit seriously there. Oops.

[bogan]

wtf are you guys arguing about, you all gave him the same advice :lol:

[Headbanger]

I didn't understand a word of it.

Well, apart from the wiring thing.

[bogan]

I think I understood pretty much all of it, just nit-picking to get one up on DB was my take on it.

[Jantar]

I think I understood pretty much all of it, just nit-picking to get one up on DB was my take on it.
I didn't see it as nit-picking. Once again DB was giving poor advice, and it needed clarifying.

[CookMySock]

I didn't see it as nit-picking. Once again DB was giving poor advice, and it needed clarifying.It is normal to disagree, distill opinions for facts, and to point out errors in logic, but on KB it is also normal to be intentionally derogatory and be as rude as one pleases with little or no comeback. I find it fucking disgusting, and moderators' selective use of the infraction system based on social standing is even more fucking disgusting.

Steve

[Jantar]

..... and moderators' selective use of the infraction system based on social standing is even more fucking disgusting.

Steve
What???? I've checked, and you haven't received any infractions for months, and the last full infraction from me was in 2008. I posted on this thread as a KB member, not as a moderator, so what has this rant about moderators got to do with speakers?

[Headbanger]

DB lacks the awesome.

[neels]

I find it fucking disgusting, and moderators' selective use of the infraction system based on social standing is even more fucking disgusting.

Steve
Whereas the use of swear words is perfectly acceptable when discussing speakers.


Anyway, back to the subject of speakers (that was what we were talking about, wasn't it?).

Wiring speakers in parallel is usually bad, as it reduces the impedance and allows the amplifier to supply excessive current and fry itself.
The only power rating that is of interest is the RMS power rating, which is how much real power you can put into them before they blow up, so obviously should be higher than the amplifier power rating.
As has been stated, sensitivity is also a relevant factor, 60W 91dB/W speakers at 50W will make roughly as much noise as 100W 88dB/W speakers at 100W

[cowpoos]

Alright, maths aside, the question was asked is it a good idea, and will it work. Yes, it will work, yes it will operate at a lower power in series, no its probably not smart wired in parallel if you are going to punish it - simple.

The question was asked about phasing - yes if you hook them up backwards you will lose 3/4 of your bass. It will be easy to just check the wiring polarity is correct, but it will be difficult and time-consuming to do a proper phase check (never rely on the +- markings for proper polarity.

Stop being a cunt cowshit.

Steve

Wheres my apologie for being correct...and for you abusing me for being wrong?

[Ferkletastic]

This thread is now about tasty tasty ice creams. http://informazone.co.cc/wp-content/uploads/ice-cream.jpg

[soundbeltfarm]

thanks for all the advice, alot has gone above my head. am i able to use a multi meter to find out which wires are the positive? i have found if i use the ohm setting and connect the positive and the negative to the speaker wires i get a negative reading and if i swao them around i get a positive reading so is this telling me which is which? it is a pain in the arse to take the dash back off to have a look.

[cowpoos]

thanks for all the advice, alot has gone above my head. am i able to use a multi meter to find out which wires are the positive? i have found if i use the ohm setting and connect the positive and the negative to the speaker wires i get a negative reading and if i swao them around i get a positive reading so is this telling me which is which? it is a pain in the arse to take the dash back off to have a look.

Stick multi meter on dc 20v....turn the stereo on...ground negetive cord of the multi meter on the van [a clean metal earth that touches chasiss or metal directly...very very essential]...touch both the headunit source wires with positive lead of the multi meter....only the positive should show a result [doesn't matter what the reading is...just aslong as there is one]

[bogan]

Stick multi meter on dc 20v....turn the stereo on...ground negetive cord of the multi meter on the van [a clean metal earth that touches chasiss or metal directly...very very essential]...touch both the headunit source wires with positive lead of the multi meter....only the positive should show a result [doesn't matter what the reading is...just aslong as there is one]

modern head units utilize inverted outputs I believe, so in such a case one wire would show positive result and the other negative when using the volt meter, and don't ever ground the -ve speaker (or +ve for that matter) wire you may fuck the head unit!