Done two track days, what's next and what bike should I go for?

[bounce]

hey. have done 2 manfield track days on the zx6r and they have been awesome :clap:
I want to get better though and I think I need to take a step down in order to really improve. Is it dumb to say the ninja is too fast for me to learn the basics? Coming down from over 200 on the straights I'm pleased just to not end up in the tyres let alone trying to decide on a braking marker.:shit:

As I see it I need major work on a) lines, b) braking points and trusting the brakes, c) getting on the power earlier on exit. Given that basically covered everything - I think a slower bike is the best idea?

So; am figuring to hang around the VicClub winter series a bit and get a feel for the bikes and classes and such like with a plan to maybe have a go in one of the more novice friendly classes next season...

In the meantime hopefully get along to a few more track days and maybe pick up a different bike that I could be a little less careful with. I was thinking something like a zx400 or a VRF400 could be a good place to start? Certainly they are about the cheapest options I think, but are they likely to be real high maintenance and unreliable given they mostly seem to be 20 years old with 30-40,000ks on the clock?

I timed off a lap at 1:24 so yeah I realise that would be pretty pedestrian for a supersport but maybe gives context if anyone is going to recommend me a bike or a class to look at..

So any thoughts from those that have done all this already?
CHeers

[onearmedbandit]

You don't need to downsize to work on the basics. You make mention that because of the speed you're at at the end of the straight you're pleased that you don't end up in the tyres? Slow down. You don't have to have the throttle pinned down the straight, you can make your bike as 'slow' as a 400, heck even a GN125, if you just don't wind the throttle on so much. You'll hear it from lots of people, but to go fast you need to be smooth, and you'll get smooth quicker by slowing your pace and taking in all the input you can. By nailing it down the straight and approaching the corner too fast (for your current skill level) you're not allowing yourself to concentrate on the important things like the approach to the corner, braking point, tip in point, hitting the correct apex, exit point etc, and these are the things that will eventually help you get quicker.

One bit of advice I've been given before is to ride the track in one gear only (say 3rd) and not use the brakes. This slows you down a lot, meaning you can start to understand the corner, pick up on all the details that you miss when you are trying to go fast. As your track knowledge increases, so does your track speed.

But I'm no racer, so what do I know. Find yourself a track mentor or get yourself to a proper rider training day and learn from the experts. You won't regret it.

[bounce]

cheers for the response onearmed. I was sort of figuring that it would be easier to learn the basics of racing on a bike that was both less powerful and also less expensive..
haha my comment about freaking myself out under brakes as a little tongue in cheek although I admit did not enjoy the back wheel lifting when braking from over 200.

[sinfull]

cheers for the response onearmed. I was sort of figuring that it would be easier to learn the basics of racing on a bike that was both less powerful and also less expensive..
haha my comment about freaking myself out under brakes as a little tongue in cheek although I admit did not enjoy the back wheel lifting when braking from over 200.
The stoppie is probably more in your suspension settings Bounce !

Manfield test days are good fun and usually quiet so you don't get so red misted lol, even better if you find a 400 rider to follow around the track or GP bike even, tag in behind and follow em round, soon has you thinkin faaaark thats some wicked corner speed they're keeping through some of them corners !

The next 4 fridays have test days going on there ! The 14 th will be a busy one with round 1 of the winter on the 15th !

Looks to me you have a bit of an issue with scratchin up your bike also and i'm not too sure how your insurance will go for test days !~ Got an old slabbie 750 that just needs a little TLC here, if your into a cheap bike to throw around the track !

[Sentox]

Keep in mind that the lines you take are bike-dependent as well. Lighter, lower horsepower bikes will take more sweeping lines to maximise entry- and mid-corner speed. Higher horsepower bikes travel deeper into the corner, slowing more, and square it off quicker to get back on the power.

I was at the same track day as you, and personally I think it's easier on a smaller bike. It's all very well to say just ride slower, but it's kind of arbitrary (although I guess you could just choose a maximum gear). My 250 simply has no speed on the straights, so I'm forced to keep improving my cornering.

[onearmedbandit]

It's all very well to say just ride slower, but it's kind of arbitrary (although I guess you could just choose a maximum gear). .

Why do you say that?

[MSTRS]

My 250 simply has no speed on the straights, so I'm forced to keep improving my cornering.

Which is where the biggest gains are to be made in terms of pace and bike handling skills.
This can be achieved on a bigger bike, but the rider then has to learn not to use straight line speed to compensate for poor corner technique.

[Sentox]

Why do you say that?

I guess it just seems like it would be more straightforward to have a slower bike where your top speed is mechanically constrained. Otherwise you have to decide on a "suitable" maximum, make sure you don't exceed it (and the temptation would be strong, I imagine). Then once you improve your cornering, you might want to raise your speed in the straights when you could still stand to improve your cornering technique. It's kind of a different focus: slowing yourself down to improve your cornering vs. improving your cornering to make up for your lack of straight-line speed.

There's really no reason why you can't just go slower, I guess. I just imagine it would be a more fun and focused experience not having to artifically constrain yourself?

[onearmedbandit]

I guess it just seems like it would be more straightforward to have a slower bike where your top speed is mechanically constrained. Otherwise you have to decide on a "suitable" maximum, make sure you don't exceed it (and the temptation would be strong, I imagine). Then once you improve your cornering, you might want to raise your speed in the straights when you could still stand to improve your cornering technique. It's kind of a different focus: slowing yourself down to improve your cornering vs. improving your cornering to make up for your lack of straight-line speed.

There's really no reason why you can't just go slower, I guess. I just imagine it would be a more fun and focused experience not having to artifically constrain yourself?

Pro's and con's for each, I'm certainly not going to deny the advantage of a slower bike in terms of being easier to learn on, but riding a more powerful bike in a restrained manner is not as hard as you may think. I can cruise at a pedestrian pace on the thou, relying on it's massive spread of torque and power and concentrate on different aspects of my riding and not be concerned at all about throttle input. And then when I want to I can up the pace noticeably and enjoy the exhilaration of putting it all together combined with utilising the power available to push both myself and the bike.

Each to their own however. Only the OP will know the right move for him (ie stick with his current steed or downsize) and he'll only find that out by chucking his leg over a few different bikes.

[puddytat]

Which is where the biggest gains are to be made in terms of pace and bike handling skills.
This can be achieved on a bigger bike, but the rider then has to learn not to use straight line speed to compensate for poor corner technique.

I was in the same position as your self Bounce, after doing trackdays & then doing a season in Clubmans on my R6....
Which was awesome, but with the worry of wreakage ,cost etc plus the feeling of that I was running before I could walk so to speak:shit:, I decided to look at a class to race in for all the same reasons.
After checking about a bit, I ruled out F3 as I simply cant afford to ....I do want to be competative, but I cant afford the cost of the class, but in saying that there are alot of fellas out there racing in this class who dont have tyre warmers or the suspension doin' damn well...
Checked out my times from clubbies & was surprised that my best time on the 100hp R6 was only a differance in average speed for the lap of 12kmh....
Compared to a Streetstock 150.....

So, to cut a long story short I bought a 250 twin(are SS150 eligible) & are very happy and enjoying the racing ....have learnt alot more about corner speed & bein' smoove, no paranoia about trashing my bike cause I can afford to with this one & 'cause its production racing a set of tyres'll do you a season.
Down here, SS is very well supported thanks to MCC & also theres a hoard of Buckets as well,a couple of who I cant catch...yet

But as OAB said, each to thier own....
Yourve made a good decision already I reckon in wanting to race.:yes:

[quickbuck]

Some bloody good advise here from all posters.....
This is KB right? Had to check....

As far as a 1:24 goes, I wouldn't be too upset with that on a 600 you use for riding on the road....
Sure it is no Super Sport time, but hell, I would hate to take a SS bike over the Hill 2 up and then try to walk into a Cafe.....

If you feel you want to dabble in racing, and keep the Road bike for the Road, then Puddytat has a great idea....
Also, Motorad are doing a Ninja 250 race package for $8995... That is much less than you will be out of pocket if the guy in front of you at a track day finds a false neutral out of the hair pin.... (Of course, assuming you are right on his tail). Never seen a bike so destroyed as Cam Jones' at the Nationals.... I digress.

For half that money you could get a bike that can run F3 and Posties like This One! (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/117333-Nsr250-race-bike-for-sale?p=1129740235#post1129740235). Will Teach you how to corner fast too...


Have a read of Twist of the Wrist 2, if you haven't already.... It will make your road riding much smoother too.

[bounce]

wicked, thanks all. some good stuff here.
No! Not the suspension fault! Had Robert Taylor recondish the other week. Bike was up to 40,000ks so due anyways but figured it good timing given the plan to try the track again. Definitely on the money regarding binning teh ninja though - it is my transport to work and I don;t have the 8-9k to replace it if it got totalled. I think I would relax more and loosen up on a bike that didn't have quite the same price tag..

So yeah I guess it is combination of things. One being that I do want a separate bike to have a bit more of a play on so as to not risk more than I can afford and secondly to be able to extend my own abilities while still going what I think is flat out :laugh: I get what one armed is saying re go easy on the straight and focus on the bends but I think I would be happier feeling like I was going for it the whole time, plus would get to see improvements in the laptimes. I enjoy lean angles more than I enjoy outright speed anyways so perhaps a smaller bike would suit my riding anyways..

So would I be making a mistake to nab a VFR400 for a couple of grand? Are they likely to explode given they are all 20 odd years old? This is the most appealing choice from a low initial cost perspective - but could be false economy as likely as not it would be unreliable?

[Henk]

Thought about buying a bucket? The top speeds are low but so are the costs and it's all about corner speed. Active scene in Wellington and the track at Kaitoke is stunning.

[woodyracer]

250 Prolite could be a good option, bikes are big so it feels like your on a 600, bikes do 170km/h so abit of speed involved, and its guna be fierce competition this season!

[lostinflyz]

400's are cheap and so long as your not an absolute muppet, pretty much bullet proof. But that being said there's alot of rubbish ones out there. THe 600 will be nice cause generally they dont have 20 years of abuse and poor maintence behind then yet. Thats the diff there.

If you want to learn to race (i say race cause racing and learning to ride a track is quite different) then the pro light, 250 street stock class has got to be where its at. New bikes, not too much power, level (ish) playing field.

Theres nothing you can't learn on the 600 but as mr. code says, you've only got a dollar to spend. If it costs you 80 percent of your mental capacity to avoid entering the tyre wall at warp speed 10 then it will take you 80% longer to learn all the other stuff, compared to something where speed is not a factor.

[lostinflyz]

wicked, thanks all. some good stuff here.
No! Not the suspension fault! Had Robert Taylor recondish the other week. Bike was up to 40,000ks so due anyways but figured it good timing given the plan to try the track again. Definitely on the money regarding binning teh ninja though - it is my transport to work and I don;t have the 8-9k to replace it if it got totalled. I think I would relax more and loosen up on a bike that didn't have quite the same price tag..

So yeah I guess it is combination of things. One being that I do want a separate bike to have a bit more of a play on so as to not risk more than I can afford and secondly to be able to extend my own abilities while still going what I think is flat out :laugh: I get what one armed is saying re go easy on the straight and focus on the bends but I think I would be happier feeling like I was going for it the whole time, plus would get to see improvements in the laptimes. I enjoy lean angles more than I enjoy outright speed anyways so perhaps a smaller bike would suit my riding anyways..

So would I be making a mistake to nab a VFR400 for a couple of grand? Are they likely to explode given they are all 20 odd years old? This is the most appealing choice from a low initial cost perspective - but could be false economy as likely as not it would be unreliable?

I just sold my rvf400, raced for 2 seasons, no issues, only normal maintence. I know of plenty of others that go the same, and i can only think of 1 in the past 2 years down south thats gone pop.

[owner]

Some bloody good advise here from all posters.....
This is KB right? Had to check.... I had to check too

Have a read of Twist of the Wrist 2, if you haven't already.... It will make your road riding much smoother too.

Twist of the wrist is now on video!! down load it and is bloody good although sounding much like
80s porn its great I would rather watch a vid then read a book

[owner]

I am in the same boat. I have a shiny 600 I am scared to crash but I think SS150 could be the go for me and about the 400 option I got a 400 92 gsxr it lasted 2 weeks before it exploded. It cost me 3000$ Great thread

[bounce]

If you want to learn to race (i say race cause racing and learning to ride a track is quite different) then the pro light, 250 street stock class has got to be where its at. New bikes, not too much power, level (ish) playing field.

It's a really good point that. It is more learning to ride a track that I am after in the first instance. perhaps getting something cheap and get to another half dozen track days could be the ticket for starters. If the bike makes it out the other side trade it up, down or across to an EX250 :shifty: for next year since chasing another bike around the track is awesome fun. Reason I was thinking 400's is that they are the pretty much the cheapest bikes around plus have pretty sharp handling and braking - so would be a blast to ride on the circuit. Primary goal is to improve riding skills, ride smoother and get more out of the bike I am on. Figure any bike control learnt on track is still going to translate pretty well back to the road.

[bounce]

Twist of the wrist is now on video!! down load it and is bloody good although sounding much like
80s porn its great I would rather watch a vid then read a book

Good call. watching it now (Twist of the wrist not 80's pron) Smooth and constant roll on of the throttle out of a turn is a good one for me. Currently employing more of a 'can I see the next corner yet? cool. Pin it!!' type approach :laugh:


I am in the same boat. I have a shiny 600 I am scared to crash but I think SS150 could be the go for me and about the 400 option I got a 400 92 gsxr it lasted 2 weeks before it exploded. It cost me 3000$ Great thread

Cheers for that. haha gsxr400 off the list!

[TOTO]

get a GSXR thou - designed to be trashed, smashed and thrown away.

[lostinflyz]

Cheers for that. haha gsxr400 off the list!

haha funny that, the only 400 i know thats popped was one to. something about the valve retainers not being the flashest.

400's don't need to be fast, but alot of them ride on really poor suspenders (be it by age/poor maintence or inherent design). thats where some are really cheap. Until they throw you off (and they will).

[PirateJafa]

get a GSXR thou Suzuki - designed to be trashed, smashed and thrown away.

Fix'd. :D


It's a really good point that. It is more learning to ride a track that I am after in the first instance. perhaps getting something cheap and get to another half dozen track days could be the ticket for starters. If the bike makes it out the other side trade it up, down or across to an EX250 :shifty: for next year since chasing another bike around the track is awesome fun. Reason I was thinking 400's is that they are the pretty much the cheapest bikes around plus have pretty sharp handling and braking - so would be a blast to ride on the circuit. Primary goal is to improve riding skills, ride smoother and get more out of the bike I am on. Figure any bike control learnt on track is still going to translate pretty well back to the road.

Get an NC30. I've had three and a half of 'em now, and haven't had any trouble with any of them, despite putting a lot of k's on them at a pretty decent pace. Gear-driven cams, reliable as hell (apart from some of the electrickery bits - reg/rec), brilliant handling and braking, and have enough power to have a good bit of fun with, while not being quite as silly as our ninjas - and they don't chew through the tyres as fast either! :)

Plenty of second-hand parts out there for 'em at reasonable prices too - the bright side of running an "older" bike. Not to mention if you get a '89, it's eligible for both F3 and post-classic pre-89!

[scracha]

400's don't need to be fast, but alot of them ride on really poor suspenders (be it by age/poor maintence or inherent design). thats where some are really cheap. Until they throw you off (and they will).
Fucked suspenders teach you how to ride though :-)

[sinfull]

Good call which ever way ya go Bounce, ya got the bug but don't wanna throw ya 600 away, wise man i say lol !
I have to say i like the idea of the new 250 class, it's gonna grow real quick i recon (think it's run with the SS150 at the moment ? ) close racing and cheap to get into and race a season without the banks busting ya door in !

[puddytat]

I have to say i like the idea of the new 250 class, it's gonna grow real quick i recon (think it's run with the SS150 at the moment ? ) close racing and cheap to get into and race a season without the banks busting ya door in !

Down 'ere it is , the twins with the 150 smokers....reckon itd be big fields if the FXRs ran with 'em to...be a hoot,like a dog thru chooks!! We ran with the buckets at the endurance meet & I think there was 45 bikes on track:woohoo::2thumbsup

[glice]

Yea run the 250. or if you want more awsomness get a 125gp bike!